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Watch Tower Scenerio 
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Black Guard
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I played this scenerio yesterday at 3K vs Skaven.
We really didn't finish due to time restraints at the store.
I felt pretty good about what transpired but now I would like to hear what others have to say about playing this scenerio.

I won the roll to deploy a unit in the tower.
I was confussed as to which unit to put in it.
I had 20 xbows and 20 Corsairs to choose from as the limit is a unit of 20 that must be core. My spears would be too big at 30.

I ended up placing my 20 Xbows with Standard & Musician in it.
That turned out to be OK as they got to shoot 360 degrees and LOS was great.
Downside was they could only shoot 5 per level at 3 levels so 15 total.
They also became the target of the entire Skaven army.
Upside they were buffed by the cauldren (never leave home without it)
and they could stand and shoot any charges on the tower.
My shooting wasn't great but they held off a hord unit thanks to being steadfast the cauldren's ward saves and my Dreadlord's inspirering presence.
I had a unit of 18 BG ready to relieve the tower on my next turn.

I guess the questions are...
What unit would you put in the tower that would be optimum for this scenerio?
What unit or characters would you try to get into it as a relief unit?
How would you try to assualt it if the enemy had it garisoned?

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Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:49 pm
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I have only played this scenario once or twice before. I did have the dilemma which unit would be best for it and at first did not choose to deploy inside the building. It wasn't a mistake then, but after some thinking, it wouldn't be bad to deploy crossbowmen or corsairs there.

Why crossbowmen?

1) Warriors are usually too big initially.
2) Shoot in 360 degrees.
3) They are resilient - 5+ armor and 6+ parry ward.

Why am I even considering corsairs?

1) Can always stand and shoot. When fighting in a building ends, the assaulting unit must back away 1" and charge again. Another s&s from point blank range. For this, 20 corsairs with SSS and handbows are best.

If infantry charges the building, give a ward save, or in case of something like slaves, maybe even +1 attack.

If something heavy charges, give killing blow.

As for other units, I would either leave the crossbowmen there for good or, if I absolutely had to, switched to Black Guard. But with BG I'd rather assault the building.

So, for assaulting:

1) BG standard build (banner of murder)
2) Warriors or BG with banner of eternal flame (I usually have 1 such unit around in bigger 2000+ games).


Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:58 pm
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Black Guard
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Yeah I didn't have shield on my xbows. I never do.
I always field them as a gunline and did not consider them in this scenerio.
They would be a lot tougher with shields in the tower or any building for that matter.
That is something I will have to take into consideration from now on.

Corsairs with handbows?
When they are frenzied with SSS that does not include extra shooting attacks, does it?
They would be ITP also which could be handy.
They would have light armour and the sea dragon cloak so a armour save of 5+ in CC and 4+ from other attacks including magic.
If armed with hand bows they would get 21 CC attacks (Only 10 models can fight as the asualt group on both sides)
and 15 handgun shots (5 per level) at 8" range or 30 mutiple shots.
They may be a very good consideration for this task.

Also note that any unit garisoned in the tower is steadfast so they are hard to root out. If given the choice to take the tower at the begining I think either of these two core units should be deployed in the tower for that reason. If they are getting weak then a relief unit can replace them.
There is no 6 turn limit to this scenerio as you roll a D6 at the end of turn 4 and add it to the turn number (4) if it equals 10 or more then game over, if 9 or less then you continue and roll in turn 5 (add to 5 etc.) to a max of 9 turns. So the battle for space around the Tower is what it is all about.

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Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:30 pm
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Nellamik wrote:
There is no 6 turn limit to this scenerio as you roll a D6 at the end of turn 4 and add it to the turn number (4) if it equals 10 or more then game over, if 9 or less then you continue and roll in turn 5 (add to 5 etc.) to a max of 9 turns. So the battle for space around the Tower is what it is all about.

Definitely. If the other side has the tower, my BG or whoever has the flaming banner simply have to start fighting the garrison in round 2 as round 3 might already be too late. Getting the building usually requires killing off the enemy (barring bad luck on their part for rolling their steadfast leadership). That also means that our goal as the attacker should be not to let any other big unit occupy the building now that I think about it.

Corsairs with handbows and SSS are a weird combination which I would not consider using otherwise. Tried a few times in the field, but the stand and shoot did not help much. However, here I am seriously thinking about it as they do get the s&s every turn. Not a problem for army lists, too, since it costs the same (unless opponent doesn't like that they are not actually holding handbows, but my friends don't mind).


Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:10 pm
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I would have a unit of 20 2 hand weapon Corsairs in the tower: if the enemy are shooting the crap out of these guys then good: gives you a chance to take apart any units that stand any chance of threatening your 'building claimers'.

I think a 2nd unit of infantry; Black Guard with the flaming banner or 2nd large (21 men-ish) corsair unit with the SSS seem the most tasty in my mind, should then take over later in the game to fight off any remnant infantry who would stand any chance of taking the building back.

Keep a BSB close to the building if you can (but not inside with the claiming unit as they're likley to get charged a LOT - staying in the 'relief' unit might not be a bad choice) to make sure your steadfast unit stays inside.

Note: I've not mentioned a cauldron as I think a strong wizard is more useful to help destroy the other parts of their army rather than concentrating on keeping your building claimers alive: shadow being pretty nifty at this is, or to debuff enemy units that threaten the building if thats REALLY whats needed.

Just a few thoughts there ;)

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Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:36 pm
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Quote:
Definitely. If the other side has the tower, my BG or whoever has the flaming banner simply have to start fighting the garrison in round 2 as round 3 might already be too late. Getting the building usually requires killing off the enemy (barring bad luck on their part for rolling their steadfast leadership). That also means that our goal as the attacker should be not to let any other big unit occupy the building now that I think about it. .
Yes br13, speed is criticle, a charge on turn 2 is a must and I think BG would be great in that roll (21 attacks as only 10 can fight)

Quote:
Keep a BSB close to the building if you can (but not inside with the claiming unit as they're likley to get charged a LOT - staying in the 'relief' unit might not be a bad choice) to make sure your steadfast unit stays inside.

Note: I've not mentioned a cauldron as I think a strong wizard is more useful to help destroy the other parts of their army rather than concentrating on keeping your building claimers alive: shadow being pretty nifty at this is, or to debuff enemy units that threaten the building if thats REALLY whats needed.


Both points are well taken DB.
I had the cauldren BSB right behind my BG who where 1" behind the tower.
With it parked there I could buff the garison in the tower any way I wanted & re-roll a failed break test if needed. I chose the ward save that kept 2 xbows alive. I also had 2 L2's nearby to help augment or hex as you mentioned. I debuffed a unit of 8 Rat ogres down to T1 and took thier charge on the right side of the tower with 30 spears. I won combat they broke and fled. I also had a Dragonlord within 18" of the tower to use hid IP for breaktests as well as charge his doomwheel.

For this scenerio you need all these elements IMHO. If the unit in the tower can hold on for say 4 turns then be replaced by the BG a win is pretty sure. Who knows what if it lasts 8-9 turns.

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Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:45 am
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Two things are good at removing units from buildings (and thus crucial in the Watchtower scenario):

Lore of Fire (or any type of fire attacks, preferably ranged) to flush out the unit thanks to rerolls on to-wound rolls. (also handy if you attack the building with the hydra for the breath attack (as 2d6 hits is obviously better than 1d6 hits from breathing into building from afar)

Lore of Death to cast Doom and Darkness on the garrison unit... Suddenly even Ld 10 enemy has to test on Ld7 which is only average... and many armies don't have access to Ld10

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Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:10 am
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Depends on what army you are fighting but based on my experience against most armies the top 3 would be Blackguard then followed by Corsairs then Crossbowmen with shields. The Blackguard however cannot be deployed inside the tower for the first turn so you do have both Corsairs and Blackguard, best to put the Corsairs soak all the missile fire first with the help of their SDC then replace them with BG after the Corsairs managed to deal some damage to enemy troops assaulting the tower. As long as you push the enemy out, you benefit from hatred every turn so the difference between the BG and Corsairs will be minimum bar the s4+ap vs s3/frenzy difference. You are stubborn anyway in the building but the ITP of the BG does have its merits such as being immune to Salamander's fire breathing, Hellcanon panic checks etc etc. Crossbowmen with or without a Sorceress is also a good choice as you get 360 degrees LOS and even greater benefit from being in hard cover to compensate for their frailty but once charged, even with shields, they really can't be expected to hold on to it for long. Again for such instances, the Cauldron of Blood's buff are golden!

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Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:57 pm
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Well from my experience in playing the scenario, you do not want to start in the watch tower, even if you win the dice roll. The rules say that you may place a unit there. At toughness 3 and a 5+ Armour save on all of our infantry units in combat they wont survive in there long.

The trick is to take the tower at a key moment in the game. Preferably with a unit like black guard with the flaming banner as previously mentioned. Pending on board position you want to be taking it by turn 4. With a unit starting in the building you are either taking out a good combat unit that can hold your army together or a ranged unit that will die in the 1st or second turn when the enemy storms the building. If an enemy won the die roll i would hope that he would put a good combat unit in there or switches in a good one early on. This gives you a chance to mop up the rest of his army first (remember you will have points advantage)

Mean while with the unit going nowhere you can focus down the unit in the building with magic missiles etc to make your life storming it easier and with your opponent tied up.

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Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:41 pm
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If you don't start in the tower, the opponent will take it really fast... and kicking anyone out of a building is a pain in the ass.

Remember that only 10 models can fight in an assault, and all units in buildings are stalwart.

So even 20 crossbowmen should hold the place for 2-3 turns... then you can replace them with another unit.

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Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:39 pm
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br13 wrote:
1) BG standard build (banner of murder)
2) Warriors or BG with banner of eternal flame (I usually have 1 such unit around in bigger 2000+ games).
Don't assault (or defend) a building with warriors if possible. An assault party of only 10 s3 attacks is not going to ever do well.

If possible, send in the witch elves or BG with flaming banner, or the frenzied corsairs. Those are your best bets, although, if you want to thin the herd a bit, a hydra can do an ok job at a pinch. If the enemy has fairly low Ld (say 8 or less), it may even be worthwhile to just use the unkillable dreadlord.

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:47 am
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Best tool to assault buildings? Not units...
Single hero with stacked on defenses so he won't die, or monsters.

He will most likely cause more wounds than take back and since the unit in the building is stalwart anyway it doesn't really matter as long as you do a wound more than take. Whether it's a single hero or a unit winning, the chances of the enemy running out are exactly the same (close to none).

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:45 am
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I played this scenario yesterday and won it, it was 1k each side against chaos and I got to deploy in the tower. I deployed a unit of 10 black guard and my sorceress in there and that worked really well, first turn they were charged by 10 warhounds which they wiped out before the hounds could attack, next turn they were charged by 18 marauders, they slaughtered eight of the marauders, lost one BG in return and the marauders fled. Everything went fine until the fifth turn, when they were charged by 18 Khorne chaos warriors who wiped the black guard out, but failed to kill my sorceress, sorceress passes break test, warriors are repulsed and next turn charged in the flank by two CoK who hold them up long enough to prevent the Khorne warriors from attacking the tower again before the game ended, at the end my sorceress held the tower with one wound intact :twisted:

Because there are 10 models on each side fighting and combat result is entirely based on wounds, I think it is best to get your most 'killy' unit in there, putting SCR units in won't be very useful. BG with their high initiative, attacks and strength do very well in the tower, Corsairs also do well, witches pack alot of killing power so they might be useful, repeater crossbowmen are also an option but are not the best because they don't kill much, it is a nice place to shoot from though. My character won me the day because my opponent allocated all of his chaos warrior's attacks against the unit of BG which massacred them but left my sorceress unscarred, because units in buildings are steadfast she passed her break test despite the fact that she lost the combat horribly, so putting in a character in the unit forces the enemy to split attacks. The unkillable dreadlord will be an absolute nightmare to try and evict from the tower.

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:42 am
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I played once the scenario with success against dwarves.
Deployed RXBmen inside the tower, from where they could shoot (however, remember only 5 per level can shoot, so if the tower has 2 levels, only 10 shoot).
After they have been depleted by the dwarven artillery, they went out and were replaced immediately by BG. The dwarfs never dared to attack them until artillery (and thrown axes) depleted them again. At that time, they moved out and were replaced by another unit in order to resist the ultimate assault.
The BSB COB nearby rocks.

I had another game with this scenario, but that was against Brets. Poor of them. Knights had to dismount before being able to attack. Only peasants could occupy it but they could not chase the occupants.
Once I entered with BG, the game was over.


My feeling about that scenario is that it is a war of attrition.
If you attack, keep the BSB nearby in case you loose combat, replace the depleted garrison with fresh troops, and sacrifice what is needed to prevent the most dangerous foes to attack the garrison in melee of with shooting.
If you defend, shoot and magic the garrison to deplete it, assault it as much as you can as well, finally there will be only a few occupants left, that you get a chance to kill to the last.
While you do that, hunt the BSB away just in case, and keep at bay possible reinforcement: it is very frustrating to see, after tremendous efforts, the last survivor of a garrison be replaced by a new fresh garrison of elite (no more core) numerous (no more limited to 20) troops.

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:59 am
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Quote:
I played this scenario yesterday and won it, it was 1k each side against chaos and I got to deploy in the tower. I deployed a unit of 10 black guard and my sorceress in there

Sorry Malus99 but the scenerio allows you to deploy only core units of 20 models in the tower. So it's xbows or Corsair's (Spears would not be good)
Quote:
I played once the scenario with success against dwarves.
Deployed RXBmen inside the tower, from where they could shoot (however, remember only 5 per level can shoot, so if the tower has 2 levels, only 10 shoot).
Calison I believe the tower has three levels. A ground level an upstairs 2nd level and the roof the third level. So you should have had 15 shots per turn.

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:35 pm
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That depends on available scenery Nellamik. If Calisson only had a tower with two levels then that's as much as would get to shoot (which means that if you're building your own scenery - build a tower with 3 levels and roof for 20 crossbowmen to fire from ;) )

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:00 am
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Dalamar wrote:
That depends on available scenery Nellamik. If Calisson only had a tower with two levels then that's as much as would get to shoot (which means that if you're building your own scenery - build a tower with 3 levels and roof for 20 crossbowmen to fire from ;) )


:twisted: soooo evil i love it

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:47 am
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Nellamik wrote:
Quote:
I played this scenario yesterday and won it, it was 1k each side against chaos and I got to deploy in the tower. I deployed a unit of 10 black guard and my sorceress in there

Sorry Malus99 but the scenerio allows you to deploy only core units of 20 models in the tower. So it's xbows or Corsair's (Spears would not be good)


oops! in which case I'd say initially either rXBs or crossbows and later switch them out for BG when things get closer and the enemy's nastiest units are trying to take the tower. Really for watchtower I think the best tactic is to try and keep at least one, and preferably several units around the tower, firstly to intercept charges and secondly to swap out the unit in the tower if the tower unit is depleted.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:47 am
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I have a unit of 20 corsairs with AHW and SSS (frenzy) as well as two units of 20 RXB with shields. I would perhaps first put in the RXB and only later replace them with the corsairs, depending on whether my enemy would wish to empty the building by shooting or by combat. I would rather that the RXB got shot first, leaving a nice big unit of corsairs. 3 attacks each, with either +1 attack or killing blow from the cauldron if needed (+1 attack would be better only in a few rare cases).

You would have to frenzy check (you can't charge but it specifically says in the BRB that you would have to leave the building and move towards the nearest enemy) but with Ld10 and a re-roll it is unlikely to happen.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:51 pm
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Ok, I have not played the scenario often, but I would consider to put a unit of 19 into my rooster - so that a hero can join the defense. Anyway I see the cauldron as a mandatroy thing to stick close by for the rerolls and for the blessings (WS or KB - especially for witches).

My idea would be to put the RxBs first in - giving them a good firebase in the center. With S&S, Shields, perhaps a 5+WS (at least the thread you can establish) and all the time hatred (each combat starts new through the 1'') this would force your enemy to send some realy good unit to get a good chance to remove this unit. If he does so everything is fine, you just flee the tower if you lose and assault it with the hydra after this. In this case you have taken a good unit from him out of the game for 1 or 2 turns which should give you some advantage for the rest ofthe battle.
If he sends some medium unit also ok, you just stay in the tower - shoot him every round and get a nearly draw CC :-)

Other good unit I see are witches, especally if you put word of pain on your opponent...and they receive some form of protection from missles in that tower.


Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:43 pm
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They way I read the scenerio deployment is that ONLY one core unit of 20 models my be deployed as the garison. So no characters first turn. But if you can get a character in the tower on the second turn with the ring of darkness all attacks will be at half WS both CC and missle. That with the cauldren BSB nearby and a sorceress or two to support with buffs, BG as a relief unit, corsairs the Hydra and or WE's to drive off enemy units around the tower.I don't see how anyone can take the tower from us.

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Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:00 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Best tool to assault buildings? Not units...
Single hero with stacked on defenses so he won't die, or monsters.

He will most likely cause more wounds than take back and since the unit in the building is stalwart anyway it doesn't really matter as long as you do a wound more than take. Whether it's a single hero or a unit winning, the chances of the enemy running out are exactly the same (close to none).
I'm guessing you don't fight daemons or undead much eh? You need to throw a lot of units at them and control the magic phase to win, generally. Especially after turn 2/3 when that 30 strong regenning ws6 grave guard unit or 35 strong bloodletter unit pulls the bait and switch with the core unit in there.

Best advice I've had to actually make watchtower fun is to not use a building for the watchtower (the rules even mention using some other terrain if you have no watchtower). Use a hill or forestor bridge and it becomes a far more brutal battle than 'first deathstar to the building wins!'.

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Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:11 pm
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To assault building, I've found that the best unit is witches elfs with the flaming banner, or with the armor piercing banner and Sword of ruin from lore of fire. Give them the +1 attacks from cauldron, or killing blow if opponent get 3+ armor or better.

40A, poison and re-roll with hatred each turn!, armor piercing and +1 to wound with lore of fire can take out near any unit!

Like said before, lore of death to give -3 Ld is VERY strong.


Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:45 pm
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if you use the actual watch tower rules (pg 399 brb) up too 10 models can shoot per level and the unit can always stand ad shoot no matter how close the enemies are


Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:01 pm
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