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Help against Beastmen. Yes sir, I said Beastmen... 
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:14 am
Posts: 184
Hi there,

It's not exactly that I have problems against Beastmen, but a new Beastmen list has "born" in here that so far is being very (and I mean very successful). And a friend of mine who I consider to be a very good player has started using it with a few modifications and he says it is a truly pain to play against. I read it and heard how it worked and I feel like I'd actually have a hard time against it.

How would you guys face this list?:


Characters:

-Uber killy Goat Lord that has 8 S5 attacks and a Potionf of Foolhardiness for a 9th attack, all with hatred and armour piercing, I6, on foot, always coupled with the BSB.

-Wargor BSB with the Banner of the Beast (+1 S to all models in his unit), so 3 S5 attacks with hatred and Gnarled hide, Heavy armour and Shield (2+ AS).

-Great Bray Shaman with Dispell Scroll and 4+ WS, Lore of Shadows

-Wargor with Chalice of Dark Rain (basically this prevents you from shooting at a the unit for a turn), heavy armour and great weapon

Core:
30 Gor Herd: Shields, FC <- Uber killy goat lord and BSB go in one of these.
30 Gor Herd: Shields, FC
21 Ungor Herd: FC <- Shaman goes here and never ever gets caught and is protected from shooting, soon you'll understand why.
5 squirmishing Ungor
5 squirmishing Ungor
Tuskgor Chariot
Tuskgor Chariot

Special
Razorgor Chariot aka "Pumbagor" Chariot
Razorgor Chariot
5 Harpies
5 Harpies
1 Razorgor
6 of those Centaur-Gor things with champion and Greatweapons in 3x2
30 Bestigor Herd: fc, banner of eternal flame
4 Minos with AHW
---------------------------------

So this is how it works. He has a big uber killy unit with that insane goat lord and the BSB in it. It runs straight into expensive units with combined charges along with Razorgors/Razorgor Chariots/Chariots, Centaur-Gors and champions make sure his goat lord slaughters lots of models. And if this unit gets any help from the Shadow lore, GL.

Meanwhile, the huge horde of support/expendable units make sure the opponent can't get charges in a dangerous way (dangerous for me I mean): except for harpies and ungor, all support units are hard hitters and are cheap. Either they are sacrificed to avoid the infantries being charged or charge along with them. For example, your 20 WEs are given 2 or 3 of these expendable units, say Ungor raiders, harpies. They kill both and then take a 4 chariot + Razorgor charge. On the other hand you can just not charge the ungor raiders...

And having so much suppor units the player that originally developed this list has had a lot of success, beating any kind of opponent. Support units that can both redirect your hammers or multicharge it to destroy them...and 3 big, powerfull infantries that, when joined by CC characters are so damn strong...everything with a champion to avoid killy characters and destroy units.



I feel like I'd had problems with this list. Maybe I'm a bit impressed because of the fact that many of the best players in here I know say it is actually a very solid and dangerous list, proved on hte tables...


Your thoughts?


See ya


Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:36 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Beasts are universally underestimated these days. Anyone who thinks Beasts are a "bad" army simply hasn't fought a decent general with a decent list yet. Granted, a lot of their units aren't point efficient, and many players are stuck in 6th edition Ambushing mode or 7th edition MSU mode, neither of which are effective for Beasts any more.

However, when you get a tough-as-nails Beastlord, +1 Strength BSB for a pack of Strength 4 gors, the incredibly dangerous Bestigors, plus Centigors/Minos for support (I personally think a massive unit of one or the other is more dangerous than two small separate units) but you can generate a lot of threats there.

Throw in the fodder you mentioned, cheap Core chariots, and a great magic phase (watch out for Stone of Spite!) and they can be deadly. Most Beast players will grab the Chalice of Dark Rain for one turn of great shooting defense. Then the entire army is either re-rolling to hit in EVERY round of combat, or has Frenzy, gaining attacks each round they win.

The result is two or three nigh-unstoppable combat Juggernauts in the form of Bestigors and/or Minotaurs. They're fragile, but will be bulky enough to withstand attacks, and they'll have characters with them that are tough and incredibly dangerous. They'll be supported by Augments/Hexes from Shadow or Beasts, some good fast-moving hard hitting elements like cheap core chariots, plus some disposable but still dangerous Ungor/Gor blocks who become fearsome when combined with Beast Banner or magic. The army will move fast, hit hard, interfere with your movement, sacrifice itself so preserve the major combat units, and those combat units will butcher most opponents in melee. The army is resistant to shooting with the right upgrades, and doesn't suffer much from Panic anymore. Dangerous.

For Dark Elves, shooting is a theoretical strength, and worth having, but I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Against the list you mentioned, shooting could do some heavy damage to both Centigors and Minotaurs, who have little/no armor, modest Toughness, and very high points-per-wound cost. Shoot those guys and charge them with cavalry/chariots. With their small unit size and no characters, they're less of a threat than if they were consolidated into one big fierce unit. Chalice of Dark Rain and screens means you probably won't hit much, so take that into account.

The Bestigors are obviously the key threat here. They'll die to massive unit-killing spells, but their stats are above average to don't expect the standard Characteristic Test-or-die tests to kill that many of them. Your best bet, is to either feed them spearmen while killing everything else, or get an elite unit into their flank (Witch Elves, Black Guard, Cold One Knights) to inflict a heavy body count and a tough character to either absorb the Beastlord's attacks in a challenge, or dish out enough return damage to compensate for the kills the Beastlord gets. He'll "Make Way Sir" no matter where you charge him, and score plenty of kills against fragile Elves, so either be prepared for those casualties or don't charge at all.

If you get into the flank, he'll reform to face you, and you'll need to threaten him with another charge once he's reformed. The key here is to maximize the amount of Bestigors you kill off, while avoiding the direct wrath of all those Strength 6 re-roll hits.

Really though, you're going to need to establish dominance with your support units, so you have the freedom you need to orchestrate the charges of your choice. Chariots, Harpies, cheap Raiders, these are amazing for annoying your support units, getting in the way, blocking your combined charges, and redirecting movement. If you can't kill them, you're not going to be able to get out of the way of his army or orchestrate the fights you want.

Beastmen can be very robust, and Primal Fury means they grind very well in long combats, so you need to line up massive, multi-unit combined charges to be sure you blast through your victim regiment of choice in one or two rounds.

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Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:54 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Beastmen are definitely underestimated and I think Tethlis description is quite accurate. Two universal truthes about them though is that they suffer mightily from panic and they have poor armour. Two units of twenty Repeater Crossbowmen will cause him fits. They cause both mass casualties and panic among Beastmen. Counter his chariots with Dark Riders (I like them with Shields these days) and and some decent sized blocks of infantry.

Also worth mentioning is the lack of magic defense. Their characters die very well to the Lore of Death though Shadow magic will make his units take a lot more casualties due our striking first.

I think Dark Elves are well suited to facing off against Beastmen. I expect you'll do well!


Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:17 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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why not spam Dark @ the unit of 21, so you can hit characters and command, and possibly hit the caster AND bsb @ the same time

The only thing I've done with them is bounce the harpies

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:53 am
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Trainee Warrior
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How many points is this army?

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:38 am
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Executioner
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Hi there,

Sorry, this is a 3k list.

I must remember that most units have a champion, so no PoK absorbing the goat Lord in a challenge. Also, Xbowmen won't be that effective since harpies and ungor raiders can screen infantries. Also, should you leave 40 Xbowmen with a Sorceress back, you may see one of the big Gor herds ambushing it to get a lot of VPs from them. Also, there is that Chalice of Black Rain that avoids a lot of shooting for one turn, so Harpies+Chalice and they're already here.

Also, we may focus fire on Minotaurs or Centigors...he (the player that deviced the list) doesn't care. You kill Minotaurs? Ok, he is not counting on them to win the game. He only needs 1 infantry and his characters. You blast one of the Gor Herd with magic?, characters move to the nearby Gor herd or to Bestigors.

Also, Tetlhis pointed out a very important thing: Beastmen get hatred nearly every turn if they pass a L test (L9 rerollable) so they're pretty good at long combats. This means it is difficult to tarpit them. And it is already difficult to win the "support units war" as he has sooo much of them. The Razorgor can take on any of our support units easily and Chariots are resilient too.

I'm yet to face it but I think I'll try to work in another harpy unit (so 2x5 DR and 3x5 Harpies) and get some Xbowmen and Shades, Hydra, BG and CoK for the CC and see how it goes.

How about RBTs? Maybe they can be a pain to fragile Centigors/Ungor raiders7Harpies and can put some damage on chariots...


Still I feel like it will be an uphill battle to counter his support units with mine while trying to score a multiple charge on his infantries to take on them one on one....

Thanks for the feedback


Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:26 am
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Dark Rider

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What about engaging his death star unit with the unkillable dreadlord and kill the rest of his army meanwhile?

It's usually the best way to score VPs against this kind of armies


Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:15 am
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Executioner
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Hi there,

If the PoK character takes position to charge, the characters move to the next Gor Herd before the PoK charges. Also, will charge the PoK with whatever to engage with it for a couple rounds while the characters leave to the next infantry. Eventually he can switch the Bray Shaman with the BSB or the Lord to get them out of combat.

Still it's very likely that i can charge with the PoK but I'll need to somehow avoid his support units...

Anyway, should I tarpit that unit, still there are 2 big infantries that can beat our elite infantry with the propor support from chariots, the list is not a DeathStar list, but the opposite, no one is truly needed to win the game and the player that deviced it has proved that many times.

So it seems like a war between my support units and his, my magic buffs and hexes against his...


Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:14 pm
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PjEOs wrote:
So it seems like a war between my support units and his, my magic buffs and hexes against his...


Yes, so I really think it's worth putting time and energy into hunting down those support units and letting yourself gain control of the movement phase. Beastmen are pretty quick... Their infantry are just as fast as ours, they have plenty of cheap skirmishers just like our harpies, and the Razorgors and chariots are brilliant and flexible. These are definitely worth focusing attention on, just so you can set up the charges that you want to make.

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:01 pm
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Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
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Tethlis wrote:
Beasts are universally underestimated these days. Anyone who thinks Beasts are a "bad" army simply hasn't fought a decent general with a decent list yet.


This. I learnt my lesson the hard way, avoid the massive dragon (if he gets it off) and tie up his big unit with a ridiculously deep spearmen unit/ stubborn DL until you've cleared up the rest. Usual tactics of breaking the central unit don't work against beasts, it sucks but they're gonna get primal fury within bsb range. You can still handle this as long as that unit is pinned, but expect multiple charges with everything left on the table before that unit crumbles.


Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:31 pm
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From what I see, the following are the significant and popular choices that Beast players are using these days. If you see this, expect a tough fight.

-Doombull: This guy can be set up a number of different ways, but the biggest things here are that he is base Strength 6, has great Initiative for mid-size monster (which can be further upgraded) and will have a ton of attacks unless you stall him. He doesn't have Primal Fury for re-rolls, but I've seen opponents run Axes of Khorgor (two hand weapons, re-roll to hit) as well as the ASF Sword or Sword of Striking. Basically, this guy will be easily hitting with his attacks, and generating some serious hurt while having good defense also. The major downside is he's only a Leadership 8 Lord choice, so if you can take out the BSB, then Panic/Primal Fury become much easier to fail.

-Beastlord: Nasty, nasty character. Great Leadership, very strong central fighter, re-rolls to hit, and can be tooled out as a monster hunter, rank-and-file combat character, or damage absorber. He'll have lots of attacks, he'll be hard to kill, and he'll almost certainly have a Ward save.

-Great Bray Shaman: Lord level caster, surprisingly decent combat stats. Lore of Beasts and Shadow are the mainstay Lores I've seen, because they have great synergy with the beast list. Common utility spec I see includes the Stone of Spite (one-use-only bound item, blows up nearby Arcane items, destroying them and causing hits on the bearer) as well as the Chalice of Dark Rain (one use only, enemy shooting is at a -1 to hit, or requires a 4+ to be able to fire.)

-Gorebull: Much like the Doombull, still durable and lethal. This character is often the BSB, and will be kitted defensively but still able to hack apart rank-and-file with ease.

-Wargor: Also a common BSB choice, especially with a magic banner that gives +1 Strength. The character can still have a 2+ armor save and outstanding Toughness, and a Gor unit with this character actually hits a lot like Black Guard, but as a Core choice. With multiple Strength 4 re-roll To Hit attacks in every round of combat, and much greater resilience due to Toughness 4, this can be a great unit.

These characters really hold the force together, and are both hard to kill and quite dangerous. I believe beast characters to be some of the finest points spend in the entire game, simply because they have both survivability, mobility and hitting power in equal measure. A Beast combat character in a unit of Bestigors/Minotaurs with enough models in it to survive a couple rounds of combat is dangerous.

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Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:47 pm
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Again I'll point out that Panic will destroy a Beastmen army. The majority of a unit has to have Frenzy/Immune to Psychology, not just a character, for the unit to be immune. If your opponent has lots of little units, force him to take as many panic and Terror tests as possible. Before long his entire line should break taking the characters with it. Repeater Crossbows, Black Dragon Egg, Hydra, Black Horror..all good tools to break Beastmen with.


Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:03 am
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I actually just played a similar Beastmen Match Today. It was a Druchii Victory (with a little help from terrible dice rolls on his part)

He took multiple 5 ungor skirmish and harpy squads to redirect, 30 bestigors with a kitted WarGor and a Level 4 Shadow.
2 squads of 25 Gores, one with bsb (+1 strength) and the other with a level 1 beasts (primarily for wyssans wildform). Also a couple or razordons and one chariot.

I found that a shadow lv4 with the sac. dagger in a spearmen bunker is great, as you can actually win close combat with debuffs, getting a good amount of spells off with PoD and the dagger.

Hydras will destroy a gore squad. Unless they have flame attacks, they will struggle to wound one with even +1 strength.

A pegasus master, with the PoK and a great weapon, did a great job of taking out all the razordons and chariots, while also easily taking out the small redirecting squads. Shades can also help with the multiple small redirecting squads.

My repeater crossbowmen squad, while not actually killing much, can worry a beastmen player, the -3 toughness spell and shooting will destroy their army, causing them to hide behind screens which can cause trouble for their charges.


Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:52 am
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Executioner
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Hi there,

Shadow Magic, as usual, is great. But the Beastmen player has Shadow too. The same that you lower the Herds' T to shoot them, he'll lower your Hydras' T to smash it in the ground. And in any case, if it's the Hydra that gets the charge, odds are that Gor will be Steadfast and next turn will have hatred too and use Shadow Magic to try and kill the Hydra.

PoK character can tarpit units. That seems to be the way to go: tarpitting units with Stubborn Dreadlord/endless Warriors while killing as much of his support units as possible and as fast as possible. Then prepare for the real combat and go for some VPs.

See ya


PS. Panic will destroy units that stay away from the General and BSB (which go together). That gives him a good control of what flees and what doesn't.


Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:59 am
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Executioner

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Beastmen has no shooting, low armor and abit voulnerable to panic. So small units outside range of general will be worth a try to panic with shooting/magic. WE are great agains them with high I and lots of poisen atacks. Try to avoid getting stuck in combat with everything in round 2. Combinations of magic, shooting, COB buff and combat units with lots of atacks can be a game winner. Personally I would go for lore of fire agains beasts for destructive power and panic effect reasons.

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Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:28 pm
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