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A few, how do you deal with questions. 
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Trainee Warrior
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:01 pm
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Location: Tromsø, Norway
I have some units that I’m not able to handle and a few that I have not played against but I’m not sure how to deal with. :cry:

The ones I’m not able to deal with:
1) Bloodcrushers.
2) Arch Lector on war altar.

The ones that I’m not sure how to handle:
i) Greater daemons (especially bloodthirster).
ii) Hell pit abomination.

So I hope you can help me pass my terror test against these units… ;)
Btw, I do normally play an all-comers list that’s somewhat heavy on shooting.

Thanks!

D


Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:33 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:56 pm
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1) Bloodcrushers.
*Shooting + Shadow debuff D3 Toughness
*Cauldron buff attacks on CoK or Black Guards w b of murder (kill before they get to attack back)
*Killy peggy char, best if can get flank (grind em)
*Just something with mindrazor

2) Arch Lector on war altar
*Something that he can't challenge, since he most of times will have speculum. Hydra/a chariot/knights to hold up then come w something else to grind down.
*Possibly pit of shades w miasma debuff.
*mindrazored unit

i) greater demons
*mass shooting
*mindrazor in CC
*pendant char to hold up / ranked unit to give combat res from flank/rear
-> alternative strat, sometimes ignore and kill what you can / try to minimize losses

ii) hell pit abo
* mass shooting
* CoK w flaming banner + extra attacks CoB blessing
* pendant dreadlord w +str wpn
* mindrazor


Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:40 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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All good suggestions by MarkusSWE.

1) Bloodcrushers.
*Really, these guys are very very fragile for their point cost. Pressure them from range, and use one of our Initiative 6 units to go in for the kill. Be sure to keep characters away from them since they have Killing Blow. If they have a Herald with them, go for Killing Blow with the Cauldron. Any magic support is decisive here.

2) Arch Lector on war altar.
*This guy isn't capable of killing much, unless you feed him a character to challenge for an important unit to tie up with the Unbreakable War Altar. A simple hard-hitting unit can kill the Altar, because it can't be healed by the Lector, only by the Lore of Life. Keep in mind that the Altar has great Magic Resistance and a solid Ward Save, so focus on combat or shooting to deplete those wounds.

i) Greater daemons (especially bloodthirster).
*In some ways, it depends on the Greater Daemon, but MarkusSWE covered most of the bases here. Dark Elves have several ways to tackle one, but weakening the daemon in the shooting phase and finishing it off with an Unkillable character or multi-attack combat unit is reliable.

ii) Hell pit abomination.
*Lots of methods here, similar to the Greater Daemon. The HPA is a great reason to work the Ruby Ring into a list; not only does a basic Strength 4 hit have a decent chance of wounding the HPA, but it's worth making sure the thing doesn't come back to life by inflicting at least one Flaming hit. Cold One Knights, Witch Elves and Black Guard can get the rest of the job done, especially with Banner of the Eternal Flame and magic/Cauldron support. I used to use a Manbane/Rending Star Assassin and Shades to great effect versus this thing, but that can be dangerous now since you don't receive a charge reaction against creatures with Random Movement.

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Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:22 pm
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Noble
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Draco wrote:
I have some units that I’m not able to handle and a few that I have not played against but I’m not sure how to deal with. :cry:

The ones I’m not able to deal with:
1) Bloodcrushers.
2) Arch Lector on war altar.

The ones that I’m not sure how to handle:
i) Greater daemons (especially bloodthirster).
ii) Hell pit abomination.

So I hope you can help me pass my terror test against these units… ;)
Btw, I do normally play an all-comers list that’s somewhat heavy on shooting.

Thanks!

D



These are actually kinda easy to deal with.
1 Blood crushers, wither them and shoot them. No wither thats fine keep shooting. They are rarely (in my area at least) fielded in any great numbers.

2Pope, the irony is you can beat him in a challenge. Send in this lord, 1+ armour, reverse ward, whip of agony, and other trickesters. With out a cauldron buff of KB it will take you about 2.5 rounds of combat to cash him in. With KB should only take 2. Rember he does get your stats but NOT your gear. Let him hit you as hard as he wants, you wont take damage and you will have 3 attacks, that will always be ST5 AP.

3 Greater demon? Thats easy, daisy chain him with harpies, he has frenzy he MUST over run, so send him off out in front of all your repeaters. 2 or 3 units to keep him going 1 one and 1 way only plus about 40 or so repeaters and he will not be liking life.

4Hell pit? Irony of ironies he is also fairly easy to handle. Take a block of corsairs with flaming banner, hand bows or hand weapons either one works. Hand bows means you can shoot the crap out of him with entire army after they do 1 wound. Flaming hand to hand just means you land harpies next to him to force him to go straight dead ahead and then charge. Sure some corsairs will die, but he will go down in 1 lucky round or 2 maybe 3 average turns of combat.

For more on the hell pit boxing from my above comment I bring to light this I learned over at the under empire. Place 1 unit 1 inch away from the exact middle of the hell pit on either right or left side. Harpies are best for this. By the rules it can never be within 1 inch of an enemy unit, so it may never wheel EVER as that would break the 1 inch rule. Whats better is since it does not actually do charges it can not random move into the harpies, as to pivot in that manner would break the 1 inch rule.

So what this nugget of goodness does is force the hell pit to go straight forward. As its only allowed to go in straight lines. You can with the right moves force it into a board edge and lock it there forever. Yes I know that is harder done than said, but if you can keep harpies alive and pacing the hell pit it can in theory be done.

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Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:37 am
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Trainee Warrior
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Thanks!

For once I’m looking forward to my next game against the daemon player :)

D


Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:53 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:17 am
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Many good answers here to an interesting topic I would say. But the now abit old "just hit him with ... and mindrazor" is not very reliable as a tactic. Great when it works and sometimes the only option you got, but not very reliable. So I sugest :

Bloodcrushers :
Combined forces of COK ekstra atack from COB + hydra
Magic + shooting : The withering + 40 xbows

Arch Lector :
A charriot to hold him down for several round works like a charm
Block of spears ( 25+ ) to hold him down usually also works
Just hold him up and take him down at the end is my advice

Hellpit :
WE with flaming banner is my favourite. Just remember to use the boxing trick with harpies to avoid it getting the charge and impact hits. 12-16 we wit flaming banner dont need mindarzor or withering, not even COB support. Those 6`s keeps comming up and hurting him.

Greater demon :
This is a real challenge and here mindrazor in cc would really help. Iv seen one other tactic work and that is to tie him up with stuborn pendant lord on peg and then hit him in the flank with COK with hydra banner and ekstra atack from COB. That is alot of points involved though. A greater demon can chop through many units in a few rounds. So 20 BG is not a good counter f.i. 40+ spears would hold him for a while I guess and thats 260 p holding 550-600 points so its OK I guess.

My headace these days is the now so popular 40 ( or even 50+ ) bloodletter unit horde formation with the hit you in the face in round 2 banner. Those zillon S5 KB atacks is chopping up my army like there is no tomorrow. Stuborn pendant lord, yes I know, but he tends to die after 3-4 rounds of combat and thats the general and alot of points gone.

Annyways, thats my take on it.

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Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:56 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Geist wrote:

3 Greater demon? Thats easy, daisy chain him with harpies, he has frenzy he MUST over run, so send him off out in front of all your repeaters. 2 or 3 units to keep him going 1 one and 1 way only plus about 40 or so repeaters and he will not be liking life.


None of the four Greater Daemons have Frenzy.

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Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:56 pm
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Shade
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While we're at it, how do you deal with those things (at 1500 points):

20 Chaos Warriors, Halbers, Shields, Mark of Khorne, Flame Banner

and

Exalted Hero, Halberd, Armor of Morrslieb, Mark of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch, Stream of Corruption, Dragonbane Gem, Potion of Foolhardiness

(4 Attacks S6, 3+ Armor, 3+ Ward vs non-magic attacks, S3 AP Breath Attack)


Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:29 am
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Black Guard
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Hydra should be able to keep away from the WoC with flame banner, they are slow.


Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:56 am
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Noble
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20 chaos warriors, wither if possible then shoot alot. Once distance is closed use shadow to lower initiative.

Hero on freesbie, shoot the crap out of him. He can not survive too many repeater shots before his armour and wards begin to fail. Rember with our shooting its often about rounds down range. If you throw alot of fire at something it will fall.

Fire banner is a great banner, just make sure you send the proper unit into the right combat. So do not send the hydra into the chaos warriors with halberds and the really hot stick banner. Send in chariots or spear men or hell large blocks of corsairs, anything that is not able to be caught on fire lol.

As to the big demons not having frenzy, alright thats fine. But yah know what? As long as the harpies sit right in the way you can help chunnel where the big threats have to go. Having that control makes dealing with them easier.

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Flyers for the win in 8th.

DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!

The Machine will grind you down.

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Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:53 am
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Executioner
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There's a lot of magic reliance for solutions to the listed problems here. When it fails you, what do you do then?

1) Bloodcrushers.
If you have magic, use it. All the lores we can take will benefit you when facing this unit, except possibly for Death Magic.

What I've done in the past when I played more magic heavy, was to constantly keep them on WS1. Now they will struggle to hit you, so you've mitigated a lot of damage.

If you have withering, then definitely throw it on them. If your magic fails you, you can risk CoKs if you judge it's do-able, ie you can inflict enough damage on the charge that their return attacks won't hurt you as much. If you have a Hydra, then it'll be a good unit for holding up the 'crushers and slowly grind them down. They can't KB the Hydra, nor stomp it, nor do they have flaming attacks to ignore its regen save.

2) Arch Lector on war altar.
There's been a very powerful CoK build thats been floating around. It involves the ASF banner led by a S7 regen dreadlord. If you throw that ASF S7 regen dreadlord in, he's pretty much left with his ward save. The idea is to smack the altar from his feet then proceed to finish the lector off afterwards. Mounts always goes first in most cases when fighting such combined units.


i) Greater daemons (especially bloodthirster).
Let it charge a unit of yours, challenge it with a unit champ. In your turn, flank it with another unit, challenge it with its unit champ. The idea? Let it pop itself from your SCR.

I've been killing Greater Daemons using my Venom Sword Assassin, they're the reason why I've included this Assassin, but it requires Withering from Shadow magic to reliably kill them. Daemons fall over when they can't hit things, so Dark Magic is very useful with its word of pain ability. Same with Shadow and its miasma ability. Use these two spells on whatever daemons you face, and you're good.

ii) Hell pit abomination.
WE with flame banner. You have a lot of attacks for a small frontage, your ability to poison it, and reroll missed attacks to increase your chances of poisoning it is invaluable. You are also frenzied to therefore immune to psych, such as its terror/fear.

20 Chaos Warriors, Halbers, Shields, Mark of Khorne, Flame Banner
They're frenzied, so feed them a unit of harpies to force them to overrun and pull them into a vulnerable position. Now you need a method to mitigate the damage they can inflict when you engage them in CC. If you have magic, use it. Every lore here will help increase your chances of breaking that unit. Death, -3Ld. Shadow, -D3 WS. Metal - uhh...nuke them from the get go. Dark, Word of Pain. If you think you can reliably cast off the necessary magic to make it harder for them to hit you, then combine a unit of (KB) spearmen in along with a harder hitting unit like BG/Chariots or Knights.

I believe most army lists fields some of the listed things. KB is definitely your best friend if you wish to kill the Tzeentch character. But if it is with the unit of Khorne Warriors, then ignore it, concentrate on breaking the unit and run him down along with his unit. It's the easiest way to kill enemy characters, if you're in a position to break its unit, then don't waste effort on the character and make him flee along with his unit.

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Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:45 am
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Corsair

Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:56 pm
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jbtheslipperking wrote:
Greater demon :
This is a real challenge and here mindrazor in cc would really help. Iv seen one other tactic work and that is to tie him up with stuborn pendant lord on peg and then hit him in the flank with COK with hydra banner and ekstra atack from COB.


Well, this doesn't work as good as you might think. The demon player obviously challenge to avoid those CoK-attacks. So, they will be there for some CR only (charging, banner, flank). Might be enough if pendant can soak up the demons beating in CC though.

Meteor wrote:
i) Greater daemons (especially bloodthirster).
Let it charge a unit of yours, challenge it with a unit champ. In your turn, flank it with another unit, challenge it with its unit champ. The idea? Let it pop itself from your SCR.


Since the BT WILL get 5 overkill. He got 6 CR wounds. Even with 3 ranks, 1 std, charging and a flank it's unlikely it would pop on it's high ld from a combat lost by musician (in that case).


Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:34 am
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Executioner
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Not always Markus. it's not a sure fine way, but it requires no luck on your side, aside from actually making the charges, and the player himself must generate those 5 or 6 ACR or risk it popping.

If you want, you could also, during your countercharge turn, charge 5 cheap harpies or something, into its rear too. That'll stack your SCR to 3 ranks, flank, charge, rear and standard, giving you a total of 7 SCR. Throw in a BSB if you want, that's 8 SCR we're looking at, the BT MUST score his full 6 ACR to test on a standard Ld of 7.

Not a great deal, but another safer method to kill it by relying on your opponent's dodgy luck. Otherwise you've got two units tarpitting it for most of the game.

Btw, notice in the army book it says the champion has a hand weapon. Does he get the parry save if you give him and his unit a shield?

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:09 am
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Black Guard

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:49 pm
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Lore of Shadow + lots of attacks..

If this fails, tie things up with an unkillable and stubborn dreadlord - don't do this with the Walter though.


Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:13 pm
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