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More Reflections on another 2400pts Tournament 
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Executioner

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:22 pm
Posts: 154
Hi

Copied another user's setup here to discuss my tournament experience at the Wandsworth Waaagh. Here's a skeleton version of my list:

Lvl 4 shadow
Lvl 2 Fire
CoB, BSB
Master on Peg
24 spears
15 spears
5 harpies
28 corsairs
20 BG
2x 10 Shades
Hydra

And the tournament report:

Game 1 vs VC
Turn 2 tried to pit the black coach. It went off irresistibly but he passed the check and then my lord died :( . My corsairs and BG chewed through his ghouls, my hydra took his BSB before dying and his black coach was killed by combat res. I picked off a few more points and on turn 6 it was going to be an 11-9 win to me, when his VC lord blew up. That turned it into a 14-6 win to me.

Game 2 vs OnG
Black guard ran forward with the corsairs and mushed through some savage orc biguns with magic help. My peg failed a charge and he flanked it with the big spider. I did a couple of wounds and drew the combat, then finished it off slowly for the rest of the game. He had a big savage orc boar bus, which i ground down with shooting, and they were eventually wiped out. In the end I only lost one unit of shades and the harpies, and took somewhere around 1700pts in return, 18-2 win.

Game 3 vs HE
This was actually against one of my club mates, so tensions were running high. My hydra jumped forward first turn and flamed his swordmasters, killing 12 :) . My shades then picked off the rest later on. His dragon prince bus with bsb charged my corsairs (who had KB from CoB (not sure on his thinking for this)). I KBed the bsb but the corsairs lost and broke from combat but weren't caught. The peg and BG went in and took them out, but I lost the BG in the process through mindrazor. The lvl 4 tried casting a spell but, again, blew up. The fire sorceress then picked off the odd few points in archer units. In the last turn his lvl 4 was on his own and the peg master charged him. He had magic items so that he was ethereal and my magic weapons were mundane, so it came down to my +1 for charging, and he fled and was caught. Again, this turned an 11-9 win into a 14-6.

Overall it was a good day, great opponents, and overall I finished second out of 12 ( a small tourney but I've never poled before :D ). One of my club mates came in third and was 6 points behind, I was around 4 points off top. What I really liked about my army was the combat power when combined with the Cauldron and shadow magic. It also excelled at picking off chaff with the shades, lifetaker and fire magic. Even when I lost the lord to miscasts, as long as my big blocks and shades didn't die i could quite easily claw the VPs back.

Tom out!

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Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:57 pm
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I´m wondering how much attention 2x10 shades attract. And how did you deploy and use them.

I only have 5 shade models, and I´m thinking of getting some more. I´m used of using a 5 model unit and I´m curious how 2 bigger units perform.

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Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:05 am
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Executioner
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Interesting list, please do tell us how your two units of 10 Shades performed? I've only been taking two units of 5 Shades, this is actually my first time seeing a unit of 10 used, and two such units.

Also congrats on your big success :)

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:12 am
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Executioner

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:22 pm
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Well the shades are the shooting part of my army, so they play a similar role to crossbowmen, except they're more accurate and maneuverable. Withering from the shadow deck helps too. It also gives me the ability to let my enemy come to me rather than being forced forward. They rarely deploy very close to the enemy, normally just within 24" to shoot on the first turn. If something threatens them, they can easily get away to save you the points. I used to take crossbowmen but dropped them as I found they never really hit anything. As for attention that shades receive, they are protected from shooting by the skirmish rule and if your opponent has a decent magic missile then stay out of range. Better yet force your opponent to make a choice, do they want to advance to missile the shades but risk being fought in combat or hit with the dark elf magic. Hope this helped :)

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Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:29 pm
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Do you think that having the lvl2 aided you in some way? Becouse for the same price as the lvl2 and the master you could get an unkillable lord instead?

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Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:35 pm
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Executioner

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The unkillable lord is nice, but I have only 240pts of lord allowance left, so the master does well in the same place, with the same wounds, pendant and costs less. The lvl 2 was actually a fantastic character and I'd recommend taking one for any army. It gives ranged ability, a magic missile for small units and ethereal stuff, and also if I can roll up flame cage or flaming sword they're always useful. After my last game my friend (who I played) even said he would be changing his own lvl 2 to fire.

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Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:43 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I like the significant ranged presence this list has. I've been using relatively little shooting in my 8th edition Dark Elf list, and I sometimes find myself missing it. I consider Shades to be a superior shooting investment to crossbows in virtually every way; I always seem to score more crucial wounds with a small shade unit than I do with a full block of 20 crossbowmen, so I can imagine how effective 2x10 Shades would be.

How was your Level 2's spell selection for those three games? I've been taking the Ruby Ring to work in a little more Flaming ranged presence for my lists, but I have a hard time justifying all those points on a Level 2 when I often don't have enough dice to keep even one caster fueled for the magic phase.

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Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:33 pm
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Thanks for the report - did you find yourself wanting another unit of harpies? I would have thought you could loose some spears or corsairs to fit another unit in.

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Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:13 pm
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Slave on the Altar

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Hmm... Where have I seen this list before... :P

I'm running 20 black guard and 30 corsairs too, but for the rest of the core I have 2x10 xbowmen. This is because I have no use for a bunker as my sorceress is flying aorund on a peg.

What I mean to ask is: Do you think the peg master is neccessary for this list to function?


Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:24 pm
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:17 am
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Was wondering about one thing in game 3 :
"He had magic items so that he was etheral and my magic weapons were mundane"
Is there really items that can do this ? Make the hero/lord etheral and at the same time make opponents magic items mundane. Thats a rather cheesy combo imo.

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Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:36 am
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jbtheslipperking wrote:
Was wondering about one thing in game 3 :
"He had magic items so that he was etheral and my magic weapons were mundane"
Is there really items that can do this ? Make the hero/lord etheral and at the same time make opponents magic items mundane. Thats a rather cheesy combo imo.


I think the item made the lord etheral and his weapons were mundane to begin with... :)


Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:09 am
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Executioner

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:22 pm
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No what slipperking said is true. He has items that make the character ethereal, and also that magic weapons become mundane in base contact with him. It doesn't work on things that just have magic attacks eg daemons, grave guard, just if a character has a magic weapon.

To rizla. I wouldn't say completely necessary, but he's so useful that it would be silly not to take him. He's good for high strength big tough stuff, going into flanks of units, ethereal, warmachines etc.

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Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:21 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend

Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 8:12 am
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Thanks for a very interesting post!

This list is very similar to my own, so I have a quite a few questions!

1) Mind sharing the equipment of your characters?
2) Did you ever feel that Death would have been a better choice than Shadow?
3) Any changes to the list in hindsight?
4) Did you feel that the Shades covered your shooting needs or would you add a bolt thrower or some crossbows (maybe 10 crossbows instead of 15 spears?)

Personally I inlude the Firemage to have atleast something against Ethereals, as my Pegasus Master (nor anyone else) packs any magic weapons at all. (The master has the "Unkillable at Range" combo of Dawnstone and Cloak of Hag Graef)

Quote:
Is there really items that can do this ? Make the hero/lord etheral and at the same time make opponents magic items mundane. Thats a rather cheesy combo imo.


Yes there is, the HE can do this.


Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:23 pm
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tomcowlin wrote:
No what slipperking said is true. He has items that make the character ethereal, and also that magic weapons become mundane in base contact with him. It doesn't work on things that just have magic attacks eg daemons, grave guard, just if a character has a magic weapon.


Oh, that's nice. Not.


Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:01 pm
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I see no reason to complain about that one particular setup. The character with that setup can't attack at all, so all it's doing is surviving; nothing offensive. You'll never see it outside of an Archmage, and if the Archmage has that setup, then he's using about 2/3 of his point allowance on that wargera combination alone.

Besides, with Sacrificial Dagger and Pendant of Khaeleth, we're hardly in a position to worry about gearing up our Level 4 magic users.

If you're aware that the Talisman of Hoeth/Foliarath's Robe combination exists, you can typically avoid it. Don't throw your combat characters into challenges if an Archmage calls you out, and don't toss your Hydra at that lone AM who is edging towards it.

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Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:55 pm
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Executioner

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:22 pm
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To sentimotor

1) SS with dag, 4+ ward and lifetake
Master with, peg, HA, S, SDC, Pendant, soulrender

2) Nope, shadow works well for synergy, buffing, debuffing and of course mindrazor. Death is nice for the snipes but if theres somthing I absolutely have to kill the master can charge it.

3) There aren't any changes I'd make right now. I tend to use a list for a while without changing then when that gets stale, run a different combo.

4) Yes also, the shades are great shooters in their own right, and when backed up by fire and lifetaker its all I'll need. The small warrior unit is there for the sorceresses to duck into if their bunker is in danger.

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Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:11 pm
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Hi mate,

I experience the same curse with the rpx-men, you want to get in range, do multiple shot, long range or be charged, and the result is no or low hits.

Do you set the shades behind enemey lines?

thx


Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:54 pm
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Executioner

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:22 pm
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Bit of threadromancy...

I came 15th out of around 150 in the tournament.

Shadewise, if your opponent leaves 12" on the flank of their army then deploy there 9 out of 10 times (in our gaming group we always play batteline so its impossible to set up "behind them"). I wouldn't get all up in their grill against armies that have just the right tools to deal with them eg. TK shooting, VC vanhels, flamers, lots of magic missiles etc. Generally if its suitable to do so, you should do it, as if they want to deal with them they'll have to turn something around; unless, you know, they like being shot on 4+ with 40 shots a turn :D

Back to repeater crossbowmen, I've been using a unit of 21 recently and its worked out better than I expected. They need to be deployed so that you don't have to move them to shoot so you get the 5+ to hit. If you hit on sixes it seems like thats the end of being able to actively reduce units. I give mine shields too as they're a decent hold up unit with parry and hatred.

Tom out!

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Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:37 pm
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Noble
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Good, thanks for the advise, im certainly curious what your gave your units for magical equipment, the heroes i already red.

My gaming group uses a lot of deathlore, this leads me to my last question where do you put your lvl 2 sorc in?

and does she have anything at all? Say cast the strengt sniper spell at her, what would you do against that


Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:59 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I like the idea of the two Shade units quite a bit. I've usually gone very shooting-light in 8th edition, but may switch things up for a change of pace. I normally play 2500 point games, and am thinking of trying two units of 10 Shades and 20 crossbowmen. Do you feel that they're universally useful enough to justify the point cost? Are there any games you've played where those Shade units just haven't performed well at all?

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Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:44 pm
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My curiosity has been peeked. I usually run one unit of shades (sometimes two) and then, only 5-7 models. I too would like to hear more about these units; How much attention do they tend to attract? Do they do enough damage to your opponent's battle plan to justify the cost?

(It may be appropriate to start a Tactics topic on this.)

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Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:07 am
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Oops, might not have explained this earlier, the original tournament was referring to a practice one-dayer. The 15th out of 150 refers to the tournament that it was practicing for.

Both the level 4 and level 2 normally go in the large spear unit. Generally lore of shadow and fire have quite good range so they can reliably hang back and cast.

The level 2 had a dispel scroll, no protection as such. Thats why the small spear unit is there, to duck into in case the bunker is seriously threatened by shooting or combat.

Our group doesn't use death magic at all, and this is replicated on most of the UK tournament scene. It just doesn't seem to do much, bit of a one trick pony IMO. I think shadow is better, as it can help you win major combats and even delete units with withering and mindrazor, which wins you the game; alternatively with death they may take one or even two characters but I feel this isn't going to win the game alone. In answer to your question what would I do about snipes on the level 2, well first I'd see whether or not I want to use my own dice as I might have to save them for later. If she was invaluable in terms of what she might do the following turn then I might even scroll it. But, as I said earlier, death isn't used very much in the UK, so I don't have much experience against it. However, after using it myself, I find it doesn't do as much as you'd expect it would. My advice to you would be take lore of shadow on a level 4 with 4+ ward save in a unit with magic resistance (null talisman on the level 2 or on a champion or possibly the MR magic banner?) and, this may sound silly, begin to win all your games. Soon enough people will cotton on, and others will drop death because it just doesn't do much. Eventually, death won't be a problem :P


In terms of shooting, firstly make sure that lifetaker is somewhere within the list. It is truly invaluable, trust me. When I make a DE army for a tournament most of the time I'll take the maximum amount of shades (being reasonable :P ). For example I went to another practice tournament this time for Cardiff Carnage, the comp allowed 3 units of 7 shades which I took. If the only restriction is no triple speical then 2x 10 shades seems enough. TBH I think the minimum amount of shooting a DE army needs is lifetaker and 2 units of 7 shades, adding repeater crossbowmen to this seems a bit of a waste (and normally there is a shot cap and I'd rather fill that with more accurate shade shooting). The reason why I'm taking RPC now is because the comp only allows two units of 6 shades max, and the reason I took a large unit of RPC is because I wanted to fill out the core minimum without taking several units (my 600pts of core is 251pts of RPC and 350pts of corsairs).

Shades seem well costed to me (perhaps not to non-DE players :P ) in relation to the cost of crossbowmen; you lose light armour, but gain WS, BS, scouts and the skirmish rule. It relates back to what I said about the 5+ to hit, if you can maintain that, then you can really hurt your enemy, which shades can do even if they move, multi shot and are at long range. Furthermore the scout setup makes them good warmachine hunters too. In answer to Tethlis, I think that is quite a lot of shooting, but what are the alternatives I guess. IMO (again) the three viable core choices (not including harpies) are corsairs, spearmen and crossbowmen. Spearmen may not be able to reach out and hurt the enemy but they provide excellent cheap bunkers for your wizards; by putting characters in crossbowmen (and therefore within 24" of the enemy) they are at risk from enemy shooting and also fast units which put you under pressure. I think its best to use the crossbowmen if you can properly defend the unit with your harpies and also through target prioritising.

Attention on shades: I suppose this relates back to my point on deployment, if the enemy can hurt them then they will attract attention as the points are there to take. If they don't have the weapons, or if you quickly take out that which could hurt them, then I don't think they will get much attention as their army is focussed on your own batteline. The great thing I find about units of shades is that in two turns they can seriously reduce enemy units. They do enough damage, and are cheap for what they can achieve (much like a large part of the DE book).

Wow, long post, but this sums up the answers to all questions so far, hope it helps all involved

Tom out!

PS: where do you guys play Warhammer then (country, state/county?), perhaps the lore of death is more prominent in certain countries...

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Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:43 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I'm in Southern California, and I can't say I have much interest in Lore of Death, and it doesn't strike me as being popular around here. I think the value of Shadow is very apparent (I use it myself.)

I may have to try out 2x10 or 3x7 Shades in my next battle. I really like the idea of accurate, consistent shooting that can safely pressure an enemy and redeploy more easily than repeater crossbowmen can. The flexibility of being able to charge warmachines and other backline units is nice as well.

Do you find that you miss Harpies though? Do you include them in your list, along with multiple Shade units? At that point, I find it's tough to fit in all the combat threats I want while still taking both Shades and Harpies. If you don't take Harpies, do you find it difficult to control the movement of enemy deathstars and tough units?

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Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:00 am
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Executioner

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I always take at least one unit of harpies and two if they will fit, they're cheap and throwaway with manoeuvrability so they always have a place. Here's a barebones list which I'll be taking to a tournament in September (comped)

Dreadlord, dragon
lvl 1, fire
lvl 1 metal
CoB, BSB
21 crossbowmen
30 corsairs
2x 5 harpies
5 shades
6 shades
20 BG
Hydra

The most shades possible is 2x 6. I had to drop one because of point problems elsewhere.

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Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:26 am
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Tethlis wrote:
I may have to try out 2x10 or 3x7 Shades in my next battle. I really like the idea of accurate, consistent shooting that can safely pressure an enemy and redeploy more easily than repeater crossbowmen can. The flexibility of being able to charge warmachines and other backline units is nice as well.


This.

I love my crossbow units for the ability to serve as both my infantry blocks and shooting core, but their accuracy and blockiness are the problem ('problem' isn't even the right word... 'downside', perhaps).

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Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:26 am
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