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Are Cavalry Worth it? 
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Slave (off the Altar)
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Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:13 am
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DO you think dark riders and cold ones are worth their points because of the new rules about cavalry?

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Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:46 pm
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I'm going to trying a new list soon using two units of 5 DRs and 10 COK with DL and BSB inside. Dark riders are more reliable than harpies to rally but more importantly they can can rally then march another 18". COK when buffed by cauldron or hydra bsb are definitely worth it considering they can generate an awful lot of WS5 S6 hatred filled attacks. So overall, yes, they are worth their points :)

Edit: Also, DR can be set up first and then vanguard so you can trick your opponent into deploying in a certain place.

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Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:15 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)
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THnx. It is annoying that you have to buy DR seperately!

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Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:39 pm
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I'd recommend combining WE glade riders and the DE warriors kit which is much cheaper. Also, if you don't play in GWs then you could explore alternate model sources.

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Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:58 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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I have been testing the DR out and I really do not think they are. They die fast and do not kill war machines that efficiently.

COK on the other hand can smash out any small unit as well as run through and cavalry.


Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:29 am
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i am also going to be trying out a list soon with a unit of 12 cold one knights this is including the hydra banner BSB and 2 units of 5 dark riders.
I am mainly doing this becuase these are models i have and i liked cold ones in 7th so im really hoping they dont die out here in 8th. I hope the list works well, but i have used dark riders this edition and they never did too much for me but then again i made some dumb mistakes with them and ive learned from those so hopefully they do better in my next battles

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Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:37 am
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Executioner
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Put it this way, I am extremely happy with Dark Riders for their points cost. My new 2000pt army consists of two units of 11 DR, and two units of 11 CoKs. Characters to flavour, and a Hydra to wrap it up. I'd be even tempted to make an army entirely of DR :)

Every unit is great, it all just takes practice, and once you've practiced enough, you will know what to expect, performance wise, from each unit.

You can make nice DRs out of Glade Rider horses, and Corsair torsos. I'll post some pictures up of my unit made from that later and link it to here as an example.

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Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:29 am
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Big units of CoK with or without can dish out enormous amounts of damage and are indeed quite good. however, i think that in most cases you will get more bang for the buck by going for executioners instead. The above mentioned big units of CoK costs sooo much that you can get plenty of executioners instead.

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Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:03 am
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Highborn
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Depends on who you are fighting, sure you have more bodies with Execs buth with 5 + armor and strikes last a 30 man unit of execs costs more than 12 COK with SOHG and against a shooting army, only half of those Execs will reach and with ASF banner which costs even more, how many Execs will actually get to strike back? I love executioners but my own 30 man squad is gathering dust with my bolt throwers atm...COK have staying power, movement spell resilience. Executioners have their uses but to be honest they aren't nearly as competitive as COK in this edition.

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Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:23 pm
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Shade

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Dark Riders are definitely worth it. I use 2 units of 5 with musician and crossbows and they perform admirably. No one expects them to be fielded and vanguard is a pretty neat ability when it comes to disrupting the opponent's plans. They are still relatively cheap, too.
I have yet to field Cold One Knights in 8th but just the idea of using 5-6 sounds like a good idea for one of my lists. Hatred, Str 4 mounts and the fact that they are an elf unit with 2+ armor saves makes them a viable option in my eyes. Their cost really isn't that bad when compared to other armies' cavalry units.


Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:25 pm
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The power of the Cold One Knights isn't really in their base profile, though that is good. The power comes from the great combos that mesh well with our metagame. The ASF banner and S4 makes them viable even in later rounds of combat. In addition, the Cauldron, and one or two debuffs on the enemy can change a charge from devastating to game-winning. I've killed entire Chaos Warrior blocks in a round or two with a proper charge from these guys.

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Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:36 pm
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CoK are quite versatile in how you can combine them. With access to both Magic standards and items for the dreadknight, they can be made to pack a wollop or execute a specific target in short order.

Ex. Banner of Swiftness (15pts) gives +1 Movement, allowing a small unit to cover more ground and get behind the enemy. Almost like heavy Dark Riders

Ex. Ring of Hotek. Once they get close, Wizards will start being careful with their spells. Too many dice and they're gone. Field this unit in the middle of your formation and use it as a mainstay assault unit that goes where the fight is both thick and rich in enemy wizards. Take the fight to them and reak havok.

Dark Riders are, to be put simply, dead fast. With their sheer speed they can be at your enemy's flank by turn 2, charging the sternguard (gunlines, war machines) guaranteed by turn 3. Or you can give them shields to make for medium cavalry that execute flank charges. It's all up to you on what you want and how fast you need them to be.

All in all, dark Elf Cavalry and their inherent options make them capable of almost any role. No matter the task, you can probably find a cavalry regiment that can be tailored to the job.

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Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:58 pm
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Cold one knights are heavy cavalry, and like all heavy cav, they are their strongest on the charge. That said, you sill get immune to Psychology, fear causing, toughness 4 elves who go stupid every once in a while.

Dark riders are fast cave and are there for harassing the enemy, to get a few early shots in, and taking out units that do not do well in close combat. Like all shooty units they are there to whittle the enemy down, and hopefully cause them to panic at the losses.

But if you are worried about the price tag, get the glade riders as was mentioned above and mix them up with warrior spurs.

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Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:12 pm
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Dark riders are very effective if used correctly. But I typically only run one unit of 6 with a musician. They have superior shooting to other fast cav with RXBs and their ability to march and shoot and free reform and rally to march and shoot makes them extremely flexible.

I typically use them to bait and flee, shoot and harass and occasionally to counter and/or charge a flank or light unit (skirmishers, other fast cav). The vanguard move is extremely useful for dealing with scout units. I find that one has to use them very carefully and skillfully to avoid them getting shot up.

Occasionally, I've used the unit as a sacrificial unit to get a mounted character where I want it to be (master on a dark steed dedicated to killing war machines, lvl 2 sorceror).

I'm surprised at how often the unit survives to the end with rallies (need at least 2 left) and can be used to charge off the board and/or catch a unit that has broken and is already fleeing for extra VPs at the end.


Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:20 am
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COK is a very good unit for delivering characters, but it dies too often and needs to be used correctly. As a smaller unit, it needs to be used more as a supporting unit to hit a flank but will struggle with stupidity if not kept in range of the BSB.

One effective unit is to use at least 8 to 10 with the Banner of Hag Grief (for ASF and re-rolls to hit against most units) with a dreadlord with 1+ AS, whip of agony (+1 attack, AP, and S5), Pendant of K., and crown of command to make the unit stubborn. The COK unit will often die before turn 6 because of the T3 and 2+ AS not being enough but will hold up long enough to tarpit and kill a lot of a deathstar unit so that something else can finish it off. I frequently give the unit the cauldron blessing and that keeps it alive longer, allowing the "unkillable" dreadlord to last longer. Often I charge the dreadlord out solo to tarpit a unit and take on the characters of a unit. The unit works best in combo with hydras that can hit the flank of the unit fixed or that protect the flanks. Just avoid units with KB, such as bloodletters, tomb guard, grave guard, etc. KB will cut through the armour save and allow the dreadlord to be killed. I typically run my hydras at the KB units and then only use the dreadlord to COKs when reasonably assured of killing the unit off.


Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:44 am
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Put it this way. Today I had the typical unit of 11 CoKs with ASF and Hydra Banner. They got smashed by Trebuchets, but thew remaining 3 knights and BSB plus the +1A blessing, smashed a lance formation of Knights without losses. CoKs when combined right, are devastating, period.

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Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:22 am
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Meteor wrote:
I'd be even tempted to make an army entirely of DR


It works.. believe me, it works.. As long as you completely get rid of the idea of needing static CR and focus on manouvring and combined charges you can make a hell of a list. My current tournament list (1800 pts):


Dreadlord, PoS, PoK
GW, HvA, SDC, Dark Steed

Dreadlord, Deathpiercer, Potion of Foolhardiness
HvA, SDC, Sh, Dark Steed

Master, Ring of Hotek,
Pair of RHB, GW, HvA, SDC, Sh, Pegasus

Master
GW, HvA, SDC, Sh, Pegasus

Sorceress, Dispel Scroll, Shadow

5 Dark Riders, Rxb, mus

5 Dark Riders, Rxb, mus

5 Dark Riders, Rxb, mus

5 Dark Riders, Rxb, mus

5 Shades, Ahw

Hydra

Hydra

Whilst the list itself doesn't really seem to pack punch, it is horrible (for the enemy) if played right. Every battle I played with it was a win, as the opponent does not get to decide where to fight, when to fight and what to fight. In addition, you can refuse a whole flank if it has too much shooting, and disable a unit by casting miasma on them. As you have no limit on the casting dice you can use, it will go through from time to time (casting with 10 dice for one spell!! WHoohooooo).

It is not the most easy list to play with, though...

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Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:33 am
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Highborn
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Ehakir wrote:
Meteor wrote:
I'd be even tempted to make an army entirely of DR


It works.. believe me, it works.. As long as you completely get rid of the idea of needing static CR and focus on manouvring and combined charges you can make a hell of a list. My current tournament list (1800 pts):


Dreadlord, PoS, PoK
GW, HvA, SDC, Dark Steed

Dreadlord, Deathpiercer, Potion of Foolhardiness
HvA, SDC, Sh, Dark Steed

Master, Ring of Hotek,
Pair of RHB, GW, HvA, SDC, Sh, Pegasus

Master
GW, HvA, SDC, Sh, Pegasus

Sorceress, Dispel Scroll, Shadow

5 Dark Riders, Rxb, mus

5 Dark Riders, Rxb, mus

5 Dark Riders, Rxb, mus

5 Dark Riders, Rxb, mus

5 Shades, Ahw

Hydra

Hydra

Whilst the list itself doesn't really seem to pack punch, it is horrible (for the enemy) if played right. Every battle I played with it was a win, as the opponent does not get to decide where to fight, when to fight and what to fight. In addition, you can refuse a whole flank if it has too much shooting, and disable a unit by casting miasma on them. As you have no limit on the casting dice you can use, it will go through from time to time (casting with 10 dice for one spell!! WHoohooooo).

It is not the most easy list to play with, though...


Would probably work against everything but Empire, Dwarves, Bretts, Demons of Chaos with Flamers and flying characters, Skaven and les gasp! Wood Elves! Seems so 6th ed to me though. Will work on Battleline and Dawn of War but Blood and Glory and Watchtower? One Caress of Laniph on your General, game over... :x

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"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

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Dark Eldar
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Last edited by Ichiyo1821 on Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:54 am
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Warrior
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Ehakir wrote:
It works.. believe me, it works.. As long as you completely get rid of the idea of needing static CR and focus on maneuvering and combined charges you can make a hell of a list. My current tournament list (1800 pts):
I like the idea of a Dark Rider list. But I wouldn't list your tournament list as a Dark Rider list. It's probably a few points short on the hero/lord point limit, and it includes 2 Hydra's. Understandable in a tournament environment, but this list has some weaknesses.

- very few bodies, pretty squishy (5x T3 6+ Arsv, 20x T3 5+ Arsv)
- if Hydra's are disabled, you're lost
- DR's give easy CR (killed in combat)
- small unit's, a panic test comes quickly
- no BSB, lord won't always be in range with such a mobile list.
- ASF can be a pain in ur ass, your DR are dead before they can strike, which leaves you with a (few) hero(es) and a Hydra fighting the unit.
- unmounted sorceress (I assume the shades go scout)
- extremely vulnerable to ranged attacks
- enemy almost always has steadfast

What armies did you play against with that list, and how did you handles these weaknesses? Especially steadfast.

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Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:40 am
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Time to respond I guess :P

Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Would probably work against everything but Empire, Dwarves, Bretts, Demons of Chaos with Flamers and flying characters, Skaven and les gasp! Wood Elves! Seems so 6th ed to me though. Will work on Battleline and Dawn of War but Blood and Glory and Watchtower? One Caress of Laniph on your General, game over...


It heavily depends on the way you play with it. Sure, shooting armies are harder to defeat than armies that have just some static blocks of combat units (which you see very often at tournaments..), but it is surely doable. In the deployment, you can lure your oppontents army into being split up across the table and use your vanguard moves to reform your entire army. In the first turn, your Dark Riders can already be behind the enemy lines!!! The enemy will not be able to shoot at you if he cannot see you..
I am not saying here that it will be easy wins over and over again, but get creative: In Blood and Glory, you can keep the general waaaaay behind your lines, out of reach of any death spell which can threaten him. I do not know if you are a player from 6th edition, but the old tricks still work!! Charge a character in a unit, and chances are high that you will win the combat, or loose in a minor margin.

In reaction to aimbob:

True, it is not a Dark Rider list in the sense that it is made entirely out of Dark Riders (which, i guess will not work: 4 units of DR's are quite enough)

- Few bodies: True, but why would you expose them to the enemy? No armies still have shooting units that can reliably shoot over half range, through woods whilst moving etc. and still inflict a decent amount of wounds except maybe for the squishy wood elves which you can charge in turn 1, holding your Dark Riders out of range in the first turn or for Daemons which have flamers, which do not like to combat characters either.

- Loosing the Hydra's: A key point in this army is timing. You do not need the hydra's in the first or second turns of the game, so why would you show them to the enemy? Keep them back whilst the characters kill the enemy mages and the rest of the army kills the other dangers of the hydra's, and the hydra's can emerge and come to kill in turns 4-6 (in which you kill the enemy's big blocks)

- DR's give CR: Know what to charge. A unit of archers, ok. A full block of infantry, hell no. It is the synergy of the list that makes it work: The Dark Riders are not meant to see combats in which the enemy has T4+ or an armour save better than 5+. On top of that, most units which are not meant for combat are not able to return anything better than 5 WS4 S4 attacks with hatred and 5 WS3 S3 attacks to you, so you will be the one who kills more.

- Small units: True. 2 kills is enough for a panic test. Again, move where you should move. The general should be where the panic tests may arise (where the enemy CAN shoot you) and well, if a unit flees, it is not really a huge problem. Nevertheless, the units are small indeed and the army looks tremendously small, but on the field you use more space than any other army :D

- no BSB: You could exchange the PoS for this, but I personally do not really feel the need to have a BSB. Yeah, its good for the re-rolls, but you will win the combats you enter (otherwise you will not charge). For panic tests the BSB would be handy, but I would rather have the PoS to be able to smack big monsters. Personal taste I guess...

- ASF: Again, the Dark Riders are not meant to fight units that they cannot defeat. The only army that fields ASF on a great scale are the High Elves, and the only unit to which it makes a difference that they have ASF in the decision whether to charge them is the archers. These units can also be taken care of with the characters or be shot down with the dark riders + shades. They have gun priority in early game :P

- Unmounted Sorceress: Yes. I guess this needs some explanation. I feel that magic in 8th should be regarded as a threat if the enemy's list relies heavily on it. Too much of a threat not to bring a Dispel Scroll. Now, the only character that can bring a scroll is the sorceress, therefore you need one. Would you like it to come to the enemy? Risking being shot at, magicked to death, possibly even ending up in combat? Nope, rather not. In this list, I just put it about 48" of the enemy army out of LOS, being able to cast miasma on his units. The enemy could direct his light units to go to the sorceress (if he still has some by the time he would get there), but it is not really like the sorceress is such a threat to him. And if he directs anything to the sorceress, fine by me as it is not going to other units. He must have had the intentions to go to the sorceress and has given up other priorities to kill her. Fine by me :P

- Vulnerability: See above, move where you can, play the enemy's army.

- Enemy has steadfast: That is where the hydra's join the fight. Turn 5/6 are there for the monsters to chop up the infantry blocks of 30 ladz together. Add in 2-3 characters, and watch the units pop. Sure, 30 man units are huge, but you have 4 turns to shoot at them, and then 2 hydra's which you probably will still have, to kill them off.

I will write more when I come back again to my pc, but for now I have to go ;) Thanks for the comments.

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Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:53 pm
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Time to respond I guess :P

Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Would probably work against everything but Empire, Dwarves, Bretts, Demons of Chaos with Flamers and flying characters, Skaven and les gasp! Wood Elves! Seems so 6th ed to me though. Will work on Battleline and Dawn of War but Blood and Glory and Watchtower? One Caress of Laniph on your General, game over...


It heavily depends on the way you play with it. Sure, shooting armies are harder to defeat than armies that have just some static blocks of combat units (which you see very often at tournaments..), but it is surely doable. In the deployment, you can lure your oppontents army into being split up across the table and use your vanguard moves to reform your entire army. In the first turn, your Dark Riders can already be behind the enemy lines!!! The enemy will not be able to shoot at you if he cannot see you..
I am not saying here that it will be easy wins over and over again, but get creative: In Blood and Glory, you can keep the general waaaaay behind your lines, out of reach of any death spell which can threaten him. I do not know if you are a player from 6th edition, but the old tricks still work!! Charge a character in a unit, and chances are high that you will win the combat, or loose in a minor margin.

In reaction to aimbob:

True, it is not a Dark Rider list in the sense that it is made entirely out of Dark Riders (which, i guess will not work: 4 units of DR's are quite enough)

- Few bodies: True, but why would you expose them to the enemy? No armies still have shooting units that can reliably shoot over half range, through woods whilst moving etc. and still inflict a decent amount of wounds except maybe for the squishy wood elves which you can charge in turn 1, holding your Dark Riders out of range in the first turn or for Daemons which have flamers, which do not like to combat characters either.

- Loosing the Hydra's: A key point in this army is timing. You do not need the hydra's in the first or second turns of the game, so why would you show them to the enemy? Keep them back whilst the characters kill the enemy mages and the rest of the army kills the other dangers of the hydra's, and the hydra's can emerge and come to kill in turns 4-6 (in which you kill the enemy's big blocks)

- DR's give CR: Know what to charge. A unit of archers, ok. A full block of infantry, hell no. It is the synergy of the list that makes it work: The Dark Riders are not meant to see combats in which the enemy has T4+ or an armour save better than 5+. On top of that, most units which are not meant for combat are not able to return anything better than 5 WS4 S4 attacks with hatred and 5 WS3 S3 attacks to you, so you will be the one who kills more.

- Small units: True. 2 kills is enough for a panic test. Again, move where you should move. The general should be where the panic tests may arise (where the enemy CAN shoot you) and well, if a unit flees, it is not really a huge problem. Nevertheless, the units are small indeed and the army looks tremendously small, but on the field you use more space than any other army :D

- no BSB: You could exchange the PoS for this, but I personally do not really feel the need to have a BSB. Yeah, its good for the re-rolls, but you will win the combats you enter (otherwise you will not charge). For panic tests the BSB would be handy, but I would rather have the PoS to be able to smack big monsters. Personal taste I guess...

- ASF: Again, the Dark Riders are not meant to fight units that they cannot defeat. The only army that fields ASF on a great scale are the High Elves, and the only unit to which it makes a difference that they have ASF in the decision whether to charge them is the archers. These units can also be taken care of with the characters or be shot down with the dark riders + shades. They have gun priority in early game :P

- Unmounted Sorceress: Yes. I guess this needs some explanation. I feel that magic in 8th should be regarded as a threat if the enemy's list relies heavily on it. Too much of a threat not to bring a Dispel Scroll. Now, the only character that can bring a scroll is the sorceress, therefore you need one. Would you like it to come to the enemy? Risking being shot at, magicked to death, possibly even ending up in combat? Nope, rather not. In this list, I just put it about 48" of the enemy army out of LOS, being able to cast miasma on his units. The enemy could direct his light units to go to the sorceress (if he still has some by the time he would get there), but it is not really like the sorceress is such a threat to him. And if he directs anything to the sorceress, fine by me as it is not going to other units. He must have had the intentions to go to the sorceress and has given up other priorities to kill her. Fine by me :P

- Vulnerability: See above, move where you can, play the enemy's army.

- Enemy has steadfast: That is where the hydra's join the fight. Turn 5/6 are there for the monsters to chop up the infantry blocks of 30 ladz together. Add in 2-3 characters, and watch the units pop. Sure, 30 man units are huge, but you have 4 turns to shoot at them, and then 2 hydra's which you probably will still have, to kill them off.

The armies I have recently played against include the new O&G, where my opponent was quite clever in deploying behind a river in a corner. This prevented my Dark Riders from getting behind his army, making me attack from the front. He had 4 Bolt Throwers, a Doom Diver and 3 units of Night Goblins with fanatics. He had also a Lvl 4 caster and 2 units of 6 trolls and some support units. The losses on my side were the RoH pegasus master (shot by a bolt thrower and killed of by a fanatic.. bad chance) my unit shades which ended up in front of a unit trolls after having lost 3 models to shooting, and the Lord who failed a dangerous terrain test, lost a wound to one volley of NG-fire (20 shots needing sixes to hit despite his 2+ save and rev WsV) and one wound to a Bolt Thrower. The wounds inflicted by the Bolt Throwers were also the only hits my opponent inflicted. Result: Major Victory

Another game was against beastmen with 4 individual razorgors, 6 Mino's, 2x 30 ungors with Mino Character, A lord on Razorgor Chariot, 8 (!) units of 6 ungors with bows, 5 harpies and maybe something more (a chariot or 2 i guess). This was a meeting engagement in which half my army ended up as reserves after having rolled a lot of 1's. Therefore, I had to deploy deep to make the rest catch up. It all ended well with me having lost one unit of Dark Riders and his army totally anihillated. Result: Massacre

Then I had three battles on a tournament where I twice faced lizardmen and once the dreaded Vampire Counts. Vampire Counts are not a really mobile army, so this was not very hard at all.. Strike where you need to and you win the game. He had killed one lord (not general) and one hydra I believe with his Lord whom was tooled to kill monsters, so that was well deserved. This was a massacre win for me.

The lizardmen then. The first player was not really experienced IMHO, as I managed to kill his support in the first two turns (all he had left was his slann, his temple guard, and one unit of sauri) The remainder of the game saw his warriors being killed by a combicharge of 2 hydra's and 3 heroes and his temple guard being partly blown up by his slann miscasting and partly by the hydra's and characters again. Result: Massacre win, DE casualities: none.

The other lizardmenplayer knew more what he did: he held his support behind his lines in the first turn in order to show itself later in the game. Some skink units were killed however by characters and he killed my shades with his salamanders. After the first three turns in which he managed to kill a unit Dark riders, he killed no more, and the Dark Elves defeated the lizardmen, killing every single one of them. Result: Massacre Win.

EDIT: Woooow, long post XD

_________________
"Ceterum censeo Ulthuan esse delendam"
-Ehakir

3/4 of games are won by deathstars. Copy this into your signature if you still use real tactics to win.


Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:31 pm
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Highborn
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I did play 6th edition and played with nothing but 20 Dark Riders, Manticores, Bolt Throwers and Harpies. Do understand why WE struggle in this edition? One of the things that they have no solution for or atleast their soulution is very difficult to pull off is that they have no means to take out steadfast. Steadfast+ BSB+ Inspiring Presence makes armies more resilient to guerrilla tactics in this edition as compared to other editions. Quick reform made the old tactics of getting out of their front arc/ behind less viable or possible. With supporting attacks 5 s3 attacks simply do nothing. Blood and glory you say? You plan to put your general out of harm's way? Who will do the damage then? Just the characters and 2 Hydras? I'd personally hand you a block of Spearmen for your Hydra and set you up for multiple countercharges with steadfast units and hammers. No magic defense means your opponent will almost always have +2 on you and ROH doesn't work as it used to. You plan to take out archers? Who fields units like that anymore in this edition? Units have gone up in size and since you don't get points for half strength units, you need to take that unit out entirely. This edition you can charge all 3 characters against a unit and it manages to maintain a rank against your non- ranked heroes, he gets steadfast and hold all 3 characters in place. You already claimed that the Lizardmen had not much experience. Had he been a more experienced player he would probably used life. He'd scout his camo skinks up on your lone sorceress, shoot it and maintain magic dominance. The usual tactics with Slaanstars, hold back, guard flanks with Salamanders and give + 4 toughness on what you want to charge. Regrow the 2 models you do manage to take out on shooting and let lifebloom heal up Stegs if he has them. Coldblood and Slaan General BSB eliminates panic checks and makes quick reform easy. You say Dark Riders should choose who to charge? Against an army who is 70-80 ranked infantry with force multiplier characters who do you charge? yes you can still pull this list off against certain armies against certain lists against certain opponents but I guarantee you that half of more than decent army lists and capable generals can handle the list with most adjusting to it on their second game with you. I don't even know what you can do against the Watchtower scenario and even Bretts with lance formation, lances struggle with it what more of Dark Riders. Again this list CAN and Will work against some but it really is far from being effective.

To prove a point, most DE lists have 20 RXB with musician and standard. If you are out of my RXB range well so are you. If you hang back 24" I have more shots, if you vanguard up close I will hit you on 4's. You can't charge me if you go first and if you go out of my charge range I can quick reform and shoot you and still hit on 5's. Law of averages take over and I can take out 3 DR at the very least. If you panic, you rally on snake eyes, if you don't, what can 2 DR do? If I suspect the charge, I can quick reform to 5x4 meaning you have to kill 3 models to even get a tie and even then I remain steadfast. Charge me on 2 sides you still need to kill 2 but still I remain steadfast and break on 8-10 re-rollable. This is also assuming I don't kill any to Stand and Shoot. Two units of DR can't even stand up to one unit of RXBmen. Against even a humble unit of empire Swordsmen or Halberds the DR will struggle and don't even suggest out shooting them as most horde armies (Empire, Skaven, OnG) kill fast cav for breakfast. Hydras are powerful yes but with no support units or ranked up units to contribute SCR, they can be held up all day by a number of things. By not having other threatening units all of your opponents spells and warmachines are sure focus on those 2.

You yourself admit that it depends heavily on who you face. Being match dependent imo is counter intuitive of a "tournament" army. Would you seriously enter a tournament and hope all you face are armies with no shooting or no means to hold their lines?

_________________
8th Edition

W/D/L
86/1/5

New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0

9th Age
W/D/L

Vae Victis
Character kill count -182

"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig


Last edited by Ichiyo1821 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:47 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I do understand your hesitations and you have some fair points. Nobody should charge with 5 Dark Riders in a big block of infantry expecting them to win, but that is just what I am saying: don't do that, it's the hydra's job. And I know that some of what I tell sounds like nonsense, like it's never going to happen, but if you know how to use the army you can really dictate the movement of the enemy, which means that you pick the fights. A block of Spearmen will not hold out against a hydra. Imagine what 2 hydra's do: I've had them kill 20 models in one turn!!
Quote:
You plan to take out archers? Who fields units like that anymore in this edition?

All the better it is. No archers means less shots coming your way.
Quote:
You already claimed that the Lizardmen had not much experience. Had he been a more experienced player he would probably used life.

He had used life. He did cast the extra toughness on his units, and his chameleons could not deploy even near my sorceress (there were Dark Rider units who made sure no scouts could be deployed behind my lines). And even if he had killed her, it would not have been a huge problem. Life does not have enough spells to inflict damage to the opposing units. Sure, you can give your troops increased toughness, but why should I shoot that specific unit then? Assuming the case that you have more units, the Dark Riders can shoot other stuff. Assuming you have just one unit, you are dead already.

The Dark Riders are not meant to charge anything more than units with more than 10 models and more than T3, a 5+ save and weak attacks. Most armies still field these units in the form of fast cavalry, redirection units or small shooting units. Sure, 20 RXB defeat units of Dark Riders when put against each other, but that is the synergy of the list: Use the characters, which you have four (4!!!) to charge the RXB-men. S&S might inflict a wound on one of them, but when they have been charged, they will not be able to shoot anymore and their efficiency will drop entirely for the rest of the game. Ok, the character is probably stuck for some turns (2-3), and the enemy can bring more troops to help the RXB-men out, but that is not a bad thing. Do not see it as his troops which are going to charge your character, but implement it in your battle strategies and have a hydra ready to protect the flank of your character for when another unit might charge him. This is not an army with which you can just march up to the enemy and spit in his face, this is Warhammer again!!! Manouvre, Dictate and Rule!!

_________________
"Ceterum censeo Ulthuan esse delendam"
-Ehakir

3/4 of games are won by deathstars. Copy this into your signature if you still use real tactics to win.


Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:40 pm
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Highborn
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I did not say people no longer field archers, I said people no longer field the old 10 man 10 wide archer formation. Actually there are a lot more warmachines, flamethrowers, monster that breathe flame in this edition as well as items/ spells that help against fast cavalry harassment.

If your DR aren't suppose to engage a unit with more than 10 models who are they to charge and take out? Surely people have units to take out your DR without sacrificing their army comp. You can't assume that people you fight will not recognize your intentions from the moment you deploy your first 2 DR and sees you have nothing else but that. Actually with your list you need to charge all your characters against one unit (as oppose to being just and option) in order to have a decent chance of breaking it and by doing so you have already telegraphed to your opponent your plan which he can easily react and counter. Actually looking at it closer your characters aren't even that protected. Aside from the DL with POK, all of them have 2+as at beast with no ward save making them vulnerable to KB and to top it all off you chose to give them GWs making them strike last further increasing your opponents unit or character of taking them out before they even land a blow.

Yes maneuver is important but I'd personally rather hit him straight up as hard and fast as I can rather than use fancy tricks that are most likely to fail more that it would succeed. What use is putting yourself in a good position when you can do squat when you actually get there? You can't dictate the course of the battle when you do not pose a significant threat to your opponent. Thus the age long saying, " If you defend everywhere, you are weak everywhere." That is what you are proposing with your list to run circles around the enemy but realize that no matter how many times you run back and forth all that your opponent needs to do is back up a little all you are still just infront of him if you get what I mean.

Again whatever floats your boat but don't claim that that list will do well against seasoned opponents of varying balanced lists.

Oh btw, if you try to cast 10 dice on Miasma to do whatever and get IF and end up killing your mage by all means do it...Seriously do it. Hell i'd even be gracious and automatically let you get 3 on the result if you roll 6's.

_________________
8th Edition

W/D/L
86/1/5

New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0

9th Age
W/D/L

Vae Victis
Character kill count -182

"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig


Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:28 pm
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Highborn
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:03 am
Posts: 784
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deleted post

_________________
8th Edition

W/D/L
86/1/5

New AB
W/D/L
32/1/0

9th Age
W/D/L

Vae Victis
Character kill count -182

"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Armies
Dark Elves
Dark Eldar
Death Korps of Kreig


Last edited by Ichiyo1821 on Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:29 pm
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