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VCs have beaten me the last 10 times... 2500pts 
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:18 pm
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OK, so I'm fairly new to Warhammer, but I've gone to enough nerd stores to know that I have the rules down pat. My friend that I am playing against is using a vampire counts army that is flat out destroying me every time.

5-10 times in a row, in fact.

I've tried just about every combination of units that I can think of and now I'm coming to the forum and begging for some help. His army list is:


==Characters==
4th level Vamp Lord with Black Periapt, Helm of Commandment, Master of Black arts.... gives him the ability to save Dispel Dice, switch his WS and +2 Casting Dice

Wight King with Drakenhoff banner - Regenerate

Necromancer with Dispel Scroll


==Grunts==
Crypt Ghouls x 30

Crypt Ghouls x 24

Skelly Warriors x 22

Grave Guard x30 (with the wight king)

==Special==
Black Coach

Cair Wraiths (ethereal)

Varghulf


=======

I've tried pretty much everything I can think of, but continuously get steamrolled. If I go shooter heavy, his black coach runs them down.

If I go Warrior heavy, he sends wraiths in to stop me.

Magic heavy, he dispel scrolls and Varghulfs me.

Witch elf heavy he cuts them down with the grave guard.

ANY help would be appreciated, I've been frustrated enough to almost give up dark elves altogether.

Thanks guys.


Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:31 pm
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Assassin

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theres a few diffrent options here, as vampire counts has no shooting a lvl 4 on a dark pegasus does wonders with lore of death, hydra's destroy ghouls no problem, lore of dark is greath for ethereal army's, you'll not want him raising, of course but his general is relativly weak, so a ring of hotek could destroy him and/ or a good part of his unit.

i'd suggest bum rushing him with several units, get some combo's going

plonk a hydra and a unit of witch elves in the grave guard, have a assasin in the witch elves or give them a flame banner, that way no prob for the hydra since he strikes at a lower I. cauldron buff the witches with +1 attack . charge a unit of ghouls with a diffrent hydra and maybe some knights, make sure they can get close to the vampire and give the champion a ring of hotek. now the true trick is getting a charge on the vampire his unit, get some harpies or shades, and charge him, sure they'll die, but he's not allowed to use his helm of command if in combat, barrel throught those units, and round up on him, focus ALL magic on the ethereals and the coach. it's though and hard, but only has 3 wounds and not a lot of I. or charge it early with a good number of ranks. lore of metal is a very good lore as well, because the buffs, they can bring armour piercing and magical attacks, improved armour saves and the final transmutation takes a third of a unit, and makes all unit with in 12 stupid the next turn. not everything will be in the generals range, and undeath don't have decent leadership. hit hard hit fast and hit where your supposed to hit, don't get trapped but barrel through.


Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:48 pm
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Noble
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HIs list seems to have only 1 major problem and that's the coach.

Repeaters will make work of ghouls, specially if you wither them.

Flaming banner means you dont care about grave guard. Take BG or Execs with that banner and you will go right through em.

A flying dread lord, I highly suggest a Pegasus, can fly over and whack on the coach for all time.

At least 2 units of harpies, one unit engages his lord, so that he can not lend out ws. Fight that combat last, kill the regen bunker first then do the harpie fight and who cares if the harpies die or not.

Flame cage on any of his units will throw a nice large wrench into the works. If you wither them even better.

As already stated hydras will bust just about anything. Put 2 fully up and running hydras into anything he has and watch them fly apart.

Just rember intiavite step is very vital in this edition, have some one kill the bsb with KB before the rest of the unit swings.

Example, death hag leading large block of execs, give hag kb gift, place her in contact with bsb, direct all of her attacks onto bsb. Since she carries the asf banner, you kill his bsb and your unit kills his unit all before he swings. Just make sure you dont ever get stuck in via an overrun, because his magic phase will mess you up but good.

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Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:31 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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The advice given so far is solid. I guess it really depends on whether you're okay tailoring your list in order to beat your opponent. A bit more information about past lists you've used, or perhaps the models you have available for use, will make it easier for us to suggest good builds to you.

If you have the Cauldron of Blood in your army, then you have a solution to the Grave Guard, even without Banner of the Eternal Flame. Tag that Wight King with Killing Blow, and you'll drop him instantly and ignore his Regen at the same time. He can't come back from a Killing Blow, and the whole Grave Guard unit becomes vulnerable. If you take down the Wight King with an expendable Core unit, then follow up with a charge from 10 Cauldron-buffed Cold One Knights and a Hydra, then you'll run over the Grave Guard with relative ease. If you charge the Vampire Lord's unit in the same turn that you charge the Grave Guard, and resolve the Grave Guard combat first, then the Vamp Lord will be tied up and can't pass his Weapon Skill to the Grave Guard, which will simply let you brutalize the Grave Guard even easier. A Pegasus character or even harpies are useful for that role; they certainly won't beat the Vampire Lord, but they'll make the Grave Guard easier to defeat.

Similarly, you can ignore the Grave Guard for a while if you have enough cheap Core units to distract them. A unit of Harpies, parked in front of the Grave Guard, will force the Grave Guard to charge them and thereby waste a turn as the Grave Guard overrun or reform. This will give you opportunity to beat on the rest of his army, especially when it comes to clearing away the VC support units.

A Pegasus character with pendant of Khaeleth and either of our Strength 6 magic weapons can intercept the Black Coach or Cairn Wraiths and tie them up for a bit until you can bust them up with static combat resolution from spearmen, or a flank/rear charge by any unit with ranks. The Lifetaker and Ruby Ring are also good, cheap options that can pressure Cairn Wraiths from Turn 1 and force your opponent to spend plenty of Power Dice keeping them raised up. Lifetaker and Ruby Ring are also good for pressuring the Varghulf as well, so that's a useful option.

Also, don't be afraid to use a Hydra to absorb a problematic unit and keep it tied up for a while. A Hydra will struggle to kill a Varghulf or Black Coach quickly, but so will the Black Coach and Varghulf struggle to kill the Hydra, which can buy you some breathing space and prevent those units from rampaging through your backline.

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Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:54 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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feedback scroll on his general if he's that reliant on magic

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Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:53 am
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Highborn
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As they have said plus this. ( I think I've posted the same thing in another thread but anyways)

General tips

Kill the general. If you have a good shot at it, kill him. Don't be afraid to toss your Hydra with KB from COB or even just the Hydra to assassinate him. If the Lord is in a small sized bunker do it the other way around and kill all the ghouls so he'll take wounds on combat resolution being unstable.

Stop the 3 major spells. No matter the type of VC list your priority is stopping Invocation of Nehek (heals or raises models/wounds), Van Hel's Danse Macabre ( makes units move 8" if you reach a unit it is considered charge or casted in combat grants ASF to the unit) and Summon Undead Horde (upped version of Invocation).

Kill the Black Coach ASAP.

Shoot, magic, charge the Ethereals with magic or a character with a magical weapon or if you have none of those or need those units/spells elsewhere, a blocked sacrifice unit can hold it for a while.

Since he is running lots of Ghouls, he'll have (100%) Ghoulkin meaning he gets an extra 8" march at the start of the game. plan your deployment accordingly and deploy further back a bit as he can do a 1st turn charge. 12"max deployment, Ghoulkin move 8", march 8", Van Hel's 8". That's a 24" first turn possible charge. Even an 1" back is everything, if you have lots of shooting then you can afford to go back even further.

VC have no shooting meaning you're Harpies, Shades, Dark Riders are as safe as they will ever be. Make good use of them by redirecting everything and focusing on one unit of his at a time.


The thing is with VC you have to be decisive. If you attempt to kill/shoot/magic a unit, TAKE IT OUT if possible in one turn or phase. VC's strengths are the same since 7th and even though they got a massive nerf in the magic department, a good general can still dish out a lot of pain and a lot of tactics with VC. I'am rushing a bit but on the top of my head these are the things that automatically go in my head when fighting them. Goodluck!

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Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:11 am
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
General tips

Kill the general. If you have a good shot at it, kill him. Don't be afraid to toss your Hydra with KB from COB or even just the Hydra to assassinate him.


Quickest game I ever played against VC - I fielded Hellebron on a Manticore, who charged his Vampire Special Character general and his unit in the face on my turn 2. He conceded very shortly after ;)

Quote:
VC have no shooting meaning you're Harpies, Shades, Dark Riders are as safe as they will ever be. Make good use of them by redirecting everything and focusing on one unit of his at a time.


And it's one of the few armies that you can take mantis against with relative safety. Manti = can fly where it wants on the board and hit like a ton of bricks. It's biggest risk is shooting, and he ain't got none XD. Just make sure to use them intelligently (e.g. rear and flank charges, not throwing them head on into a big, stodgy unit of infantry from the front and unsupported).

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Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:44 pm
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Highborn
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But what is the manticore going to do? Most VC armies I see consists mainly og grave guards and ghouls, which you don't want your manticore to be in combat with, seeing as they will decimate him, even when charged in the rear.

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Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:51 pm
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Not much imo really..perhaps the best it can do is rear charge a 5 man Bloodknight unit and score a lot of killing blows. 4 for the manti, 3-4 more from the character with maybe Deathpiercer and + 1 attack from a COB or 5 attacks with Whip of Agony then KB bless. Aside from that the Matni will die to a gazillion s4 poison Ghoul attacks. :lol:

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Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:57 pm
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
But what is the manticore going to do?


Quote:
Kill the general.


Quote:
Kill the Black Coach ASAP.


Those.

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Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:43 pm
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Highborn
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Red... wrote:
Quote:
But what is the manticore going to do?


Quote:
Kill the general.

Not really, your Dreadlord (assuming you do put a DL) statistically does 1-2 wounds on him at best(assuming he has 4+ ward) The Vampire strikes, if he's a close combat vamp he'll just use Blooddrinker or make a lot of attacks and kill the Manticore outright under you even before it strikes then it may or may not regain his wounds back. You charge +1 deal 1 or two wounds so the best you have is +3, he kills your Manticore and you lose by 3 or 2. I even tried doing this in 7th edition (even then the Manticore was sub-optimal) and had not much luck given that I had the chance of striking first with the DL and Manti and had Deathpiercer. That's 8 potential KBs and it won't go off all the time.

Quote:
Kill the Black Coach ASAP.

Possible. just as long as you don't let it become ethereal before you do otherwise poor kitty.
Those.


I love my own Manticore conversion but I simply can't recommend it in 8th unless I feel like using my Khainite list where it becomes mandatory.

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Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:55 am
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i used to take a lvl 2 sorc on a dark steed with lifetaker and use her to hunt down cairn wraiths.She was pretty damm good at it. My oppo just stopped taking them after that.

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Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:42 am
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Nice point by Nicol247. Lifetaker's a brilliant anti-Ethereal option. I usually work it into my all-comers lists just so Cairn Wraiths are never a problem. The FAQ stating their shots are, indeed, magical was a lifesaver (the lifetaker is a lifesaver! Pun!)

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Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:49 pm
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Eviscerator wrote:
I've tried pretty much everything I can think of, but continuously get steamrolled. If I go shooter heavy, his black coach runs them down.

If I go Warrior heavy, he sends wraiths in to stop me.

Magic heavy, he dispel scrolls and Varghulfs me.

Witch elf heavy he cuts them down with the grave guard.


Good advice from the others, but supplement it with this thought:

Your opponent obviously chooses the right (unit-on-unit) matchups from the outset.

You might wish to pay more attention to setting up matchups favourable to you from the outset. This means prior to and during deployment.

It is so easy to build a good list, plan on achieving good things during the game, but failing to focus on how much impact deployment has on how things are going to pan out (it is something I am concious of due to my own need to train in this area).

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Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:50 am
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Good point by Mutator. 8th edition Vamp Counts tend to have relatively few unit drops compared to a Dark Elf army. We tend to have far more deployment drops than they do, and I've seen games where my Core choices alone nearly outnumber the Vamp Count player's deployment drops. As a result, it's often easy to formulate some good unit matchups during deployment and make sure you have the right units in the right places to counter the VP opponent.

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Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:48 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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Nearly? Last several games I've played vs. VC, I've dropped as many Dark Rider units as he dropped units, total!


Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:26 am
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Hello,
well VC have simply gone extinct round here, for the simple reason killing their generl is rather easy, and it basically shatters the whole army. If it happens early on (as it usually does) an opponent will usually concede. That wamp is almost naked, every decent combat character should have no trouble taking him out in challenges, but hydras and units can pull that out too. Just crush him early on. Really, VCs are goners.
Cheers!

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Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:58 am
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Could you possibly elaborate on why Vampires die so easily? They can get great protection, if a player wants it, but normally I see Vampires buried in a unit behind the main lines, positioned in such a way that it's physically impossible to charge the Vamp Count's unit early in the game. Most VC players I see are very aware that the army needs them, so they do everything they can to keep that character very well protected.

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Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:11 pm
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Tethlis wrote:
Could you possibly elaborate on why Vampires die so easily? They can get great protection, if a player wants it, but normally I see Vampires buried in a unit behind the main lines, positioned in such a way that it's physically impossible to charge the Vamp Count's unit early in the game. Most VC players I see are very aware that the army needs them, so they do everything they can to keep that character very well protected.


Hello, yes, well, the one vamp the OP posted, unless i am mistaken, has no ward save item. Killing him, even with a single, modest magic missile would not be so hard. Same with any unit, nowadays that they strike back anyway. Infiltrating shades with assassin could also help, maybe more than one unit. Also VC lack missiles, so a mounted figthy lord is a good option against them. On a winged beastie, there really cant be any safe place for the vamp, unless he is an ethereal one with magic resistence hidden in a building that is surrounded by bunker units from all sides, or something like that. Hope that helps.

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Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:08 am
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The principle is sound, but rather relies on the VC player leaving his vampire open to a charge.

Given that all likely avenues of approach (or placement of flying chargers) will be prevented by blocking units (who, depending on severity of incoming threat, may be WS7), how do you advise that one gets access to this vampire?

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Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:32 pm
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Mutator wrote:
Given that all likely avenues of approach (or placement of flying chargers) will be prevented by blocking units (who, depending on severity of incoming threat, may be WS7), how do you advise that one gets access to this vampire?


Exactly. The VC player would have to be asleep to even allow his Vampire unit to be charged. Killing the Vamp Lord is a great goal if you see an opportunity to do it, but it won't always be an option until late in the game.

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Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:15 am
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