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DE Dragon Dreadlord Idea 
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Warrior
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:32 am
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So I'm thinking about how to maximize Dark Elf Monsters and Killing without losing too many points in the process against soem of the harder foes.

I currently run a very successful Dwarf Army and I'm quite aware how quickly Hydras die when Grudge Throwers, Bolt Throwers and Flaming Cannons hit them. Typically I win games against Dark Elves in the first 2 turns as his Hydras drop to the ground.

I'm thinking the new rules for killing the entire model to gain VP's will help save those Hydras and any other expensive units that usually get unwanted attention.

So how about bringing the Stubborn Unkillable Dreadlord (Crown of Command, Soul Render, Pendant of Kaeleth, HA & SDC) riding a Black Dragon. The Dragon will be a serious target for the opponent and against dangerous shooting can be killed if enough focus is put upon it, but it is a bit harder to kill than a Hydra with an extra Wound and toughness. Knowing that it's 20" Fly 1st turn will allow for a 2nd turn charge that will usually be in the Dragon's favor and the Stubborn LD 10 will be unlikely to break. So I expect every single weapon capable of firing will be aimed at the Dragon will fire there instead of at the Hydras. The Hydras will be capable of marching forward unmolested in time for Harpies or Dawn-Cloak Master to start taking out War Machines.

If everything goes well the Dragon will survive wounded and the Hydras will survive unscathed, then it's just a matter of charging into the enemy and chopping them up.

I would likely take lots of Crossbowmen to soften up enemy units the 1st couple turns while preparing the charges and then they could cleanup the remnants since they'll have shields and decent numbers.

The Dreadlord will almost certainly survive unharmed, but his Dragon could be killed if enough attention is given to it. However the Dreadlord will likely protect those points and deny the enemy the VP's while he continues to stay Stubborn and chop up enemies.

If the Dragon doesn't get harmed before combat it will seriously smash the enemy. I expect about half the armies faced in a tournament won't have a real option to harm the Dragon significantly, so this is really just my idea for how to play a "Monster Mash" list and stay safe with artillery on the field.

Anyone take a list like this and have success with it in the way I suspect it can? Or am I just wasting time thinking about a Dragon? The New Dragon is great looking so I'd like to be able to use it effectively and figured this would be the best way. I figure the Peg-Lord isn't the best way to go as the enemy will see the Peg as to small to make a big deal out of and just castle and fire at the Hydras safely. Using a killable target that can potentially crush multiple units by itself sounds liek a good idea in comparison.

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Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:26 pm
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Unfortunately the dragon can be killed out from under the Dreadlord. When folks realize they're facing the unkillable Dreadlord, they'll just attack the mount instead. Dragons are tough to kill but certainly not impossible.

The actual benefit of the "unkillable Dreadlord" is the idea that he is cheap. He can keep something expensive in your enemy's army busy while you handle the rest of his army. Dragons are expensive so not as good a choice.

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Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:12 am
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Noble
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Well hello Aaron

I am afraid that you will find out that having a dragon will cause you 2 massive problems.
1 you loose points needed for a lvl4 for magic defense.
2 dragons have a serious allergic reaction to cannons.

Worse than that its not even just cannons, massed fire will drop them fast. Oh sure you need 6's to wound them, but hell 40 or so shots and you will take 3 or 4 wounds. You can get multiple units shooting that much in this edition. A 3+ save may seem good, but when your rolling it 3 to 6 times a turn. Thud goes the dragon.

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Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:27 am
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Corsair
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I recognize Furgil's usual well thought experiments with tactics.

The good point brought there is that the "unkillable" rider makes the victory points of the dragon unkillable.

The result is that the dragon's role is left to the opponent:
- either soak all the shooting for 2 rounds... and get no VP
- or have a very dangerous, mobile killer running havoc in the back of his lines.

The objection is valid, though:
the unkillable dragonlord is going to use most of the Lords pts, and may not be that much in synergy with the rest of the army, unless
- the dragon is killed soon and the footed lord joins an infantry block
- or the dragonlord combo-charges from rear/side, where the general's Ld can be effective (at 18", nice but still only 18").

The consequence is that your magic will come from Lvl2 (probably 2 of them) and if you add a COB then you're coming close to 50% characters in your army.


Definitively, don't waste your dragonlord chasing warmachines.

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Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:44 am
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Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:58 pm
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Good points by the peoples here. However, since buying my shiny new dragonlord I have been dying to use him, so I also tried to make a list to support him.
As a consequence of taking him. Your magic will be weak. You will have to spend far too much on lords/heroes. You will lack bodies, and your main assult units will almost never have steadfast, and your enemy usually will.

Ok, yes it will not be as competative as DE can be. But I can still see it being a lot of fun.

My basic idea for 3k list was this:
Unkillable, stubborn dreadlord on dragon.

Two units of 33 XBows. Full commands, shields. Want them to stay there for a little bit if they get charged. Each unit will have a lv2 sorc in it, so champ is there to protect her for a round or so ish, hopefully. Now since these units are going to be at long range ideally for as long as possible. It really limits the viable lores quite a lot. Death an dark wont be so good basically. So I thought of making them both shadow, one with sac dagger and one with the tome. So you'd have 5 of the spells. Spell offence shouldn't therefor be too bad with the sac dagger etc. Spell defence is going to be iffy. Ah well cant have everything.

Two units of ten shades with AHW.

5 CoKs. Barebones, with standard and muso.

2 hydras.

CoB. I always take one of these. Just gives you so many options, dont really need to go into detail methinks.

Repeater Xbow thrower x1. I know most people dont rate these, however I like to include one in my lists. Hardly ever dies, and quite often gets its points back. I deal for sniping basically. Getting those annoying 5 scouts on your flank, or jazelles, or finishing that last couple of people running away. Shades cant always get to what needs getting got if you see what I mean.

Master on pega with dawnstone and ring of hotek. He's kinda fragile. But basically your magic defence to help out with the fact you have no level 4.

So the basic idea of the list, is your two xbow anvils either side of CoB and XBT sat back pwning things. Then you have tons and tons of flankers, led by dragon dude. The idea being, is that it doesn't matter if your opponent focus down one of them, probly the dragon, as it saves the rest which will still really hurt when they get in. And if your dragon makes it in in one piece, happy fun times. Your dready still has synergy, as your Pegamaster, CoKs, Hydras, Shades should benefit from his inspiring presence at the right times.

So again, not overly competative. But good fun. The models look awesome, and I dont know about you but my friends are getting tired of me crushing victory'ing them all the time.. XD
I'm really looking forward to trying this out, just for the fun. Hopefully against someone who doesn't have cannons.. ;p


Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:10 pm
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Hi, Infekted, welcome to D.net (hopefully your name has no real meaning).

So your list is basically shooting & monsters (5COK <=> 1 monster).
COB is there mostly to grant KB to one of the "monster" when facing a character, and ward save otherwise. Useful but not vital.
The originality in your list is to have not many bodies.

The tactics should be to concentrate your forces and smash one opponent at a time with shooting, finishing it with monsters.
Flyers are there to get after easy targets.
Not sure how fun it is for the opponent. No reason why it would be not effective.

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Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:36 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:52 pm
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I respect your knowledge furgil and will thank you for making my dwarf army hated by all :) I'm sure if anyone can make a dragon list work you can but I feel that DE players should look at relying less on hydra and more on other DE amazingness. I personally use my hydra to keep missile fire from my better more expensive units.


Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:31 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:00 pm
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My suggestion copied from another topic where someone intended to make 2400pts dragon list:

If i build such a themed army i would perhaps go for:

Dreadlord on Dragon: Whip of Agony, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Crown of Command, Sheild, SDC, dragonbane gem

Sorceress on DP: Tome of Furion, Pendant of Khaeleth, Dark magic

master, full mundane, Co, BSB, lance, hydra banner :twisted:

11 CoK, FCG, hag graef, champ having ironcurse icon, luckstone (and if its posible charmed shield, but my armybuilder just wont allow me), that way the champ provides 6+ Ws against WMs, can accept chalenge and perhaps survive

5 shades, AHW

hydra

3 units of 10 RxBs with musicians

40 spears, FCG, banner of swiftness

thats 2395 total (2400 if you give that CoK champ that charmed shield) and you get quite fast army (each unit you want to get in CC has M6+), you have enough units to probably outdeploy your oponent, your oponent will have to choose his target carefully and, well it would look imho great on the table :)


Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:47 pm
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I find that Dark Elf players get into trouble when they rely too heavily on Hydras. Since they can be so readily countered via warmachines, spells, Banner of the Eternal Flame, and most high-Initiative killing-oriented units, they're not quite the powerhouses they used to be. Players taking two Hydras in their typical build are certainly taking two potent choices, but they're also choices that will melt easily against some opponents (as you've experience with your Dwarves.)

When I face opponents like Empire or Dwarves, I tend to get as many obstacles/impassable terrain objects on the board as I can to stop cannonballs, then resign my Hydra to his fate. If he makes it across the table, great. If not, it means I focus more heavily on the use of elite infantry/heavy cavalry to gain my Victory Points.

With all of that said, the Black Dragon can and does work in 8th edition using the exact Stubborn build you described. I played my first dozen 8th edition games using that configuration, and was generally pleased with the result. However, it isn't nearly as consistent as I wanted in a take-all-comers competitive list, so I scrubbed the dragon in favor of the more standard magic-heavy approach.

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Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:51 pm
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Thanks for the thoughts...

This is a purely theoretical idea for getting a Dragon on the field that isn't a waste of points.

So generally people think it will be sub-optimal; fair enough.

I'm also thinking that without Hydras to cause mass casualties and distract from the Dragon (and the Dragon to Distract from the hydra), and Shades/Harpies/Dawn-Cloak-Peg-Master to threaten War Machines, that a Dragon is not a safe idea.

I am also terribly dis-interested in the now "Manditory" tournament build as it bores me to tears seeing it copied over and over again... of course it's nice to know what every single DE will have without needing to see their lists, I just wouldn't want to play with it if I started using DE again.

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Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:12 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:16 am
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Infekted wrote:
Good points by the peoples here. However, since buying my shiny new dragonlord I have been dying to use him, so I also tried to make a list to support him.
As a consequence of taking him. Your magic will be weak. You will have to spend far too much on lords/heroes. You will lack bodies, and your main assult units will almost never have steadfast, and your enemy usually will.

Ok, yes it will not be as competative as DE can be. But I can still see it being a lot of fun.

My basic idea for 3k list was this:
Unkillable, stubborn dreadlord on dragon.

Two units of 33 XBows. Full commands, shields. Want them to stay there for a little bit if they get charged. Each unit will have a lv2 sorc in it, so champ is there to protect her for a round or so ish, hopefully. Now since these units are going to be at long range ideally for as long as possible. It really limits the viable lores quite a lot. Death an dark wont be so good basically. So I thought of making them both shadow, one with sac dagger and one with the tome. So you'd have 5 of the spells. Spell offence shouldn't therefor be too bad with the sac dagger etc. Spell defence is going to be iffy. Ah well cant have everything.

Two units of ten shades with AHW.

5 CoKs. Barebones, with standard and muso.

2 hydras.

CoB. I always take one of these. Just gives you so many options, dont really need to go into detail methinks.

Repeater Xbow thrower x1. I know most people dont rate these, however I like to include one in my lists. Hardly ever dies, and quite often gets its points back. I deal for sniping basically. Getting those annoying 5 scouts on your flank, or jazelles, or finishing that last couple of people running away. Shades cant always get to what needs getting got if you see what I mean.

Master on pega with dawnstone and ring of hotek. He's kinda fragile. But basically your magic defence to help out with the fact you have no level 4.

So the basic idea of the list, is your two xbow anvils either side of CoB and XBT sat back pwning things. Then you have tons and tons of flankers, led by dragon dude. The idea being, is that it doesn't matter if your opponent focus down one of them, probly the dragon, as it saves the rest which will still really hurt when they get in. And if your dragon makes it in in one piece, happy fun times. Your dready still has synergy, as your Pegamaster, CoKs, Hydras, Shades should benefit from his inspiring presence at the right times.

So again, not overly competative. But good fun. The models look awesome, and I dont know about you but my friends are getting tired of me crushing victory'ing them all the time.. XD
I'm really looking forward to trying this out, just for the fun. Hopefully against someone who doesn't have cannons.. ;p




Souns like a good army though i would swap the dagger for the darkstar cloak, does the same thing with killing any of your Xbows :)


Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:21 pm
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Furgil, since I know you have tournament experience, I'm sure you can appreciate the usefulness of consistency and versatility in a list. Dragon/PegMaster/Hydras is dominant against some opponents, and has to work much harder against others. If your 5-game matchup happens to avoid cannons or an army with consistent access to Initiative-based instant kill spells, you're probably going to do well with it. Against Empire, Dwarves or Skaven though, it's less of a certainty. I might consider revisiting the Black Dragon as an experiment (I've had him sitting on my desk at work, so he's constantly reminding me to give him another shot) but I do think it's a riskier proposition than a list with balanced distribution of magic, monsters, elite infantry, cavalry.

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Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:55 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:58 pm
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varghulf wrote:
Souns like a good army though i would swap the dagger for the darkstar cloak, does the same thing with killing any of your Xbows :)


No it doesn't. The dagger gives you an optional free dice per spell. Cloak gives one dice per phase. Its almost as good as having a toad, but of course you have to chop up your guys. Ah well, all glory to khaine!
It means I actually prefer low amounts of power dice. Especially with Power of Darkness, I can still get the dice to cast what I need, but my oponent has far less dice to dispell with.


Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:03 pm
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