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4 months and 20 games later, my COK rock with 8th! 
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Highborn
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You could always try to give the Dreadknight a Whip of Agony or even soulrender if you have BoHG, the much debated Deathpiercer can also be used to KB characters so your COB still gets to give the COK +1 attack (imo better than Kb most of the time anyway)

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Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:01 pm
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Those would all be good and obvious choices. Soulrender would be great, but losing the re-rolls to hit in subsequent rounds of combat due to taking an ASL weapon would be unfortunate. I'm already using Crimson Death on my Lord, which probably means that the Whip of Agony is my remaining default choice. I'll give it some thought, but since this unit can potentially do very well in drawn-out combats, I think it's worth paying for an extra magic weapon to help keep them effective.

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Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:24 pm
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I'm also considering fielding a tooled-up unit of CoK, with the ASF banner. I was considering a defensive route for the champion's magic items, with a combination of the following items:

- Luckstone (cheap, and useful with high AS and since he' ll usually get only one or 2 attacks directed his way)
- Ironcurse Icon (to protect the expensive CoK unit from shooting)
- Potion of Foolhardiness (ItP would be wasted, but it's cheap for an extra attack on the charge
- Dragonhelm (especially nice in combination with the Luckstone)


Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:04 am
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Hiya chaps, great to see the age old Cold One Knight + multi attacks (Hydra Banner was the classic in 6th over 10 years now and has remained devastating in every incarnation since).

I'm in fact going to be taking a unit of 6 with the Hydra Banner BSB myself to the next Throne of Skulls in a few weeks time (painting like crazy right now!). There are many points in this discussion that I like and agree upon so far, and there are also other points that I perhaps disagree with. This main point of contention I have with some points is the 'cold one knight deathstar'. In my own humble opinion, I do not overly agree with pumping the unit with characters and expensive equipment that really does not add much of an extra edge to an already nasty unit.

The reason being that: sure, Cold One Knights can take a hit like almost no other troop type we have, however they are not invincible: even with a 5+ ward save from the Cauldron. Near immunity to purple sun, pit of shades and other I spells was mentioned earlier - yet a good roll on melkoth's stops this - or, more obviously, using Searing Doom easily wipes Cold One Knights. But of course, magic can be stopped.

One of the real issues is warmachines: Hell Cannons, Trebuchets, Helstorms, Warp Lightning Cannons and Salamanders.

Often our armies are smaller than opponents (unless fighting elves, Daemons or perhaps Warriors of Chaos) and this means that our opposition often has deployment priority: we run out of units to place before they do: thus they can often best deploy a unit or 2 that would prove best to counter one or more of ours.

Anyway thats a little of a moot point and I'm going off on a tangent, what I mean is that I think taking Cold One knight units of over 25% of your army is a little bit of a points sink - one unit is still one unit - it can be goaded (like the skaven engineer example, or with great eagles and other kamakaze redirectors) or neutralised (spells that stop movement) or simple focus destroyed.

Thus I think the obvious combos are:

- knight unit + BSB (Hydra Banner)
- knight unit + Dreadlord (unkillable or otherwise)
- multiple naked knight units
- knight unit + Cauldron of Blood*

* the cauldron works with any of these combo's really being a seperate entity and able to affect more than one unit through its ability, but perhaps works best with the multiple naked units (largest gain for least cost).

This was much of the reasoning and thought processes I went through in creating my army, though I deliberately chose to not use the most obvious and perhaps most beneficial aid to cold one knights: the cauldron (due to fluff and for the challenge of it! :P).

Thus I chose not to use a unit of 10 (the 2nd rank only get 1 attack each and mounts do not gain supporting attacks) but the old classic unit that is 7 models wide. This saved me enough to afford a unit of 5 shades with dual hand weapons: a very worthwhile bargain in my mind when you realise that shades are an excellent counter to 2 of the obvious threats to cold one knights (wizards and war machines).

And so, onto the present question

Babnik wrote:
Next step to make this unit even better; is ROH is the best magical item for the champion?
Again, I think that the most cost effective combination is one that Iff has just mentioned:

Potion of Foolhardiness, Luckstone and the Charmed Shield - this allows for an equivalent of a Hero level fighter in terms of damage output (3 Str 6 attacks with hatred at WS and I 6) and gives him the equivalent of 3 wounds (charmed shield negates 1st hit, Luckstone stands a good chance of negating a 2nd wound and the final one for when they do kill him).

If you have the Hydra Banner with this guy he is nearly the equivalent of a lord. Sadly though he lacks a proper ward save but for only 15 points of items he is a steal and can sometimes gain the Underdog bonus for killing characters (hero level characters are often chopped down by him).

I do quite like the concept of the Dragon Helm, Soul Render combo though: I think he might be hurt a little too easily however as a 2+ armour save probably won't cut it...

Theres some of my thoughts anyway: massively agree with 'Older Players' (the chap himself I mean, and not the collection of posters who have been on here since 2002! :P) points about magic synergy and Ichyo who probably deserves the title of Cold One Warlord of the World for his unstoppable unit and its battle reports!! :D

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:40 pm
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Dangerous Beans wrote:
Hiya chaps, great to see the age old Cold One Knight + multi attacks (Hydra Banner was the classic in 6th over 10 years now and has remained devastating in every incarnation since).

I'm in fact going to be taking a unit of 6 with the Hydra Banner BSB myself to the next Throne of Skulls in a few weeks time (painting like crazy right now!). There are many points in this discussion that I like and agree upon so far, and there are also other points that I perhaps disagree with. This main point of contention I have with some points is the 'cold one knight deathstar'. In my own humble opinion, I do not overly agree with pumping the unit with characters and expensive equipment that really does not add much of an extra edge to an already nasty unit.

The reason being that: sure, Cold One Knights can take a hit like almost no other troop type we have, however they are not invincible: even with a 5+ ward save from the Cauldron. Near immunity to purple sun, pit of shades and other I spells was mentioned earlier - yet a good roll on melkoth's stops this - or, more obviously, using Searing Doom easily wipes Cold One Knights. But of course, magic can be stopped.

One of the real issues is warmachines: Hell Cannons, Trebuchets, Helstorms, Warp Lightning Cannons and Salamanders.

Often our armies are smaller than opponents (unless fighting elves, Daemons or perhaps Warriors of Chaos) and this means that our opposition often has deployment priority: we run out of units to place before they do: thus they can often best deploy a unit or 2 that would prove best to counter one or more of ours.

Anyway thats a little of a moot point and I'm going off on a tangent, what I mean is that I think taking Cold One knight units of over 25% of your army is a little bit of a points sink - one unit is still one unit - it can be goaded (like the skaven engineer example, or with great eagles and other kamakaze redirectors) or neutralised (spells that stop movement) or simple focus destroyed.

Thus I think the obvious combos are:

- knight unit + BSB (Hydra Banner)
- knight unit + Dreadlord (unkillable or otherwise)
- multiple naked knight units
- knight unit + Cauldron of Blood*

* the cauldron works with any of these combo's really being a seperate entity and able to affect more than one unit through its ability, but perhaps works best with the multiple naked units (largest gain for least cost).

This was much of the reasoning and thought processes I went through in creating my army, though I deliberately chose to not use the most obvious and perhaps most beneficial aid to cold one knights: the cauldron (due to fluff and for the challenge of it! :P).

Thus I chose not to use a unit of 10 (the 2nd rank only get 1 attack each and mounts do not gain supporting attacks) but the old classic unit that is 7 models wide. This saved me enough to afford a unit of 5 shades with dual hand weapons: a very worthwhile bargain in my mind when you realise that shades are an excellent counter to 2 of the obvious threats to cold one knights (wizards and war machines).

And so, onto the present question

Babnik wrote:
Next step to make this unit even better; is ROH is the best magical item for the champion?
Again, I think that the most cost effective combination is one that Iff has just mentioned:

Potion of Foolhardiness, Luckstone and the Charmed Shield - this allows for an equivalent of a Hero level fighter in terms of damage output (3 Str 6 attacks with hatred at WS and I 6) and gives him the equivalent of 3 wounds (charmed shield negates 1st hit, Luckstone stands a good chance of negating a 2nd wound and the final one for when they do kill him).

If you have the Hydra Banner with this guy he is nearly the equivalent of a lord. Sadly though he lacks a proper ward save but for only 15 points of items he is a steal and can sometimes gain the Underdog bonus for killing characters (hero level characters are often chopped down by him).

I do quite like the concept of the Dragon Helm, Soul Render combo though: I think he might be hurt a little too easily however as a 2+ armour save probably won't cut it...

Theres some of my thoughts anyway: massively agree with 'Older Players' (the chap himself I mean, and not the collection of posters who have been on here since 2002! :P) points about magic synergy and Ichyo who probably deserves the title of Cold One Warlord of the World for his unstoppable unit and its battle reports!! :D


Awesome! Well written. You'll have to keep us updated when it comes to the throne of Skulls touney. Good luck!


Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:04 pm
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Haha! Thanks Fallen - I feel quite shy now! :oops:

Basically all I'm saying is, yes, sure Cold Ones can be pumped to the max, but theyre already an effective unit with a bit've tooling up: that +1 attack (wherever your source) is really all they need. If you start getting too OTT with them then they can become a point sink. A single unit cannot be everywhere every turn after all!

I'm rapidly trying to paint up models for Tourney as we speak haha!! :D Corsairs and Cold Ones for the win!! :P

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Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:50 pm
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:shock: Cold One what? :lol: not really...I'm actually a Harpy Whore Pimp! haha to be honest I have a couple more batreps to be posted and though I admit my COKs are the stars of most of them, the real champs have always been my 40 RXBs, So many of my COK charges were decided upon and made possible by my RXB's totally eliminating a block or monsters.. I've even wiped out an entire block of Bloodletters and Knights of the Realm in one round of shooting with them. I've loved COKs since 6th edition along with DR's and Manticores but the latter seems non optimal these days that I've shelved them along with my Bolt throwers and Executioners.

As for using the Hydra Banner this edition with 6 strong COK, not really good imo. 75 points for the banner plus you need a BSB to carry it and then you lose out defensive gear on a very small unit. Personally I'd rather have more bodies. For the rebuttal:

Hell Cannons - The only shooting Chaos has and without support shooting the worst COKs can get is 1 hit before you reach any of his units as he is 100% to move towards you if he goes first and if he goes second...go figure.

Trebuchets - Same as Chaos scenario and don't bother counting Peasant bowmens. S5 = AS4 for COK plus 5+ COB ward/ 6+ Iron Curse icon. Can hurt on a lucky shot as Trebs hit 1/3 of the time. If he is hitting your COKs, then your Hydra is safe as well as your other blocks. A fair trade in my opinion. No shooting from Brets mean your Harpies/ DP and Shades can easily get in the Trebs.

Helstorms, - Empire are more likely to take Mortars and Cannons. Again any decent Empire player will prioritize your Hydra over the COK and hopes to score d6 wounds on it. You're best bet against Empire is to charge him straight up most of the time to minimize his shooting anyway so at best 2 rounds of shooting not counting misfires. Hellstorm cannot fire indirectly so unlike mortars and cannons will be most likely in the open.

Warp Lightning Cannons- Nothing I can say here but hope for misfires and that your Harpies/Dr/Shades can get to them in time. It's not that WLC are hard to handle, its more of you have to deal with the zounds and zounds of Slaves, Clanrats and Gutter Runners to get to them.

Salamanders - Again if I were the Lizardmen, I'd use the Salamanders to breathe on Core to panic them or Hydras to stop their regen then shoot it down with Skinks. I'd leave my COK to my Saurus blocks and Slaans as I'm likely to be steadfast with cold blooded to boot then counter charge them with Stegs and or Scar Vets.

I know I may have mentioned having a Hydra with the COK but to be brutally honest if you are gonna field a large unit of COKs you are most likely the kind of person who would take a Hydra as well so there. The great thing about using a "DS COK unit" is that it covers the fact that your entire army is actually capable of doing equally well and forces your opponent to react to your units and battleplan rather than you reacting to his. Can they beat your COK? Sure they can but it's going to take a hell lot to do so enough for you to capitalize on them while they do try.

On a side note, while my spears an rxb serve as my SS's bunker, my COK unit also bunkers my Dreadlord who more often than not charges out to hold and take out monsters should the need arise. :twisted:

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Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:29 pm
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Used to field COK in units of 5 or 10, but then I met a unit of 40 bloodletters. Its a new game out there now. Imo in a competitive invironment the point sink COK unit will be a on an off unit. Really good sometime, but suck in other games. Why ? They get tarpittet bye 60-80 slaves or skellies/ghouls. They get raped by 40 bloodletters or a seeker or a Stardragon. Or they get shot down by empire cannons. But contratict to the fashion Im accually considering using 5 with mus as warhashine hunting unit. I love the models.

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:06 pm
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jbtheslipperking wrote:
Used to field COK in units of 5 or 10, but then I met a unit of 40 bloodletters. Its a new game out there now. Imo in a competitive invironment the point sink COK unit will be a on an off unit. Really good sometime, but suck in other games. Why ? They get tarpittet bye 60-80 slaves or skellies/ghouls. They get raped by 40 bloodletters or a seeker or a Stardragon. Or they get shot down by empire cannons. But contratict to the fashion Im accually considering using 5 with mus as warhashine hunting unit. I love the models.


The Cold One Knights are actually pretty tough to tarpit. With a bit of support, including Cauldron, Lore of Shadows, a Hydra, etc., they can work through big Steadfast units pretty quickly. Besides, the Dark Elf army has plenty of units that allow us to help slow down and occupy tarpit units anyway. The Knighs' movement is a major advantage in letting them pick their fights, and when I use mine, my goal isn't that the Cold One Knights rampage through the entire enemy army, but rather that the enemy has to make tough decisions. Yes, the Knights might get tarpitted by Slaves, but that's also why I have two blocks of 30 spearmen; to help occupy those kinds of threats so the rest of the army doesn't have to, and if I use a Hydra, chariot or Spearmen unit to charge in alongside the Knights, I can potentially deplete or outrank a tarpit so that they dont' receive Steadfast anymore.

Skellies/Ghouls? Cold One Knights can inflict such heavy casualties in a single charge that they can occupy most of the Vamp Count magic phase, forcing them to rez the Tarpit back up. Since the Knights can do 15+ wounds to ghouls on the charge using only the Hydra Banner or +1 Attack, and not even factoring in character attacks, and my Hydra/Black Guard are probably setting up for a counter-charge in the following turn, there's real opportunity to focus a lot of kills and maximize the casualties you inflict via the Undead mechanic. If an Empire player is nailing them with cannonballs/mortars, then my Hydra/infantry are safe.

Point being, they aren't the only unit in a Dark Elf army. Like with any Elven regiment, they can often pose enough of a threat on their own to make your enemy pay attention to them, but they should still be supported whenever possible.

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:58 pm
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Hi there,

When facing Skavens, it's not slave tarpit what our CoKs should fear but Engineers and Giant Rats. These are extremely cheap and have good M so they're the best skaven "tarpit". The Skaven player will place lots of these units in front of the most dangerous enemy unit and forget about it.

In a recent game against Skaven, my 12 CoKs with Hydra Banner BSB had to kill 6 Engineers and 3 units of 5 Giant Rats since turn 2 and did nothing in the whole game. Meanwhile, HPAs and Doomwheels ripped my army, which was small due to fielding such an expensive CoK unit.

Since that, I only run my CoKs 9-10 strong with Hag Graef. They're still great, they will beat any elite troop with CoB blessing if the get the charge, they will take down big nasties too...10+Hag Graef is perfectly fine and come in at around 320 points, which is a reasonable price.


Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:45 pm
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That's a tricky situation. Were you not able to disrupt some of those units with Panic? I tend to deploy pretty conservative versus Skaven anyway, since their most lethal shoot is short-range and I need to be absolutely certain I have time to prepare for incoming HPAs/Doomwheels. I feel like you could generate some fairly excellent Panic against those units to help alleviate a bit of their pressure, and then send spearmen, corsairs, or your other fodder unit of choice to try and occupy them in turn.

You've definitely highlighted one of the dangers of using Cold One Knights, or any big expensive unit for that matter. Having the right support units to try and intercept/disrupt those little tarpit blocks is an important thing.

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Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:33 am
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@PjEOs:
Skavens have always been a difficult challenge for our legions. Vast hordes like green skins but more dangerous. Lethal shooting like empire but more devastating.
Did you loose your 12 CoK unit? Keeping points became more important than getting VP in 8th....

Back into the topic.
Yip 14 COK with ASF and Hydra banner is an expensive unit.
That is why I field it only at 3000pts. But as said in the beginning, it keeps 600pts safe in a vault. 20% of your army!
And again winning in 8th is more about denying than getting victory points.

At 2500, 10 COK with ASF is more than enough to run over most units. True you won't get rid of 60 rats but they won't destroy back our pricey unit either.
They will successfully deal with most of units we can find in a competitive tourney. From bloodletters to swordmasters!

On the other hand, if you play a friendly game, against skavens, 30 WE will be more usefull than 10 COK...

The point of this topic was to discuss why the old 7th ed COK unit size (5-6) has to beef up into a larger size of 10-12.

But the most important thing is we can see now much more Cok in 8th than in borring 7th and that's a great new!

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Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:14 am
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I was wondering why most of you think The asf banner is the way to go and don't leave home without it. What makes it so good? I plan on giving mine bsb and hydraulic banner. I don't have a cob in list FYI and one more question is the hydraulic bsb build to fragile with just a 1+ save and no ward? Or what should I give him?

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Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:10 am
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I agree CoryL99. I give my knights +1 leadership and quite often my BSB with the Hydra Banner also joins in if nothing else, for the re-roll on Stupidity checks. With Stupidity virtually eliminated, Cold One Knights become a very nice unit indeed.


Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:20 pm
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CoryL99 wrote:
I was wondering why most of you think The asf banner is the way to go and don't leave home without it. What makes it so good? I plan on giving mine bsb and hydraulic banner. I don't have a cob in list FYI and one more question is the hydraulic bsb build to fragile with just a 1+ save and no ward? Or what should I give him?

The main reasoning is that ASF makes them reroll all their missed attacks. So they are able to have to-hit rerolls every round of combat, not just the first from hatred.


Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:52 pm
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Ahh thank you for explaining that is nice I will probably do that with a bsb with hydra banner that would be one insane unit I would do 7 knights plus fc and bsb and the champ what builds would you guys use?

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Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:50 pm
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When I field BSB with Hydra banner, in a large COK unit (minimum 10) with ASF. It is simply unstoppable.
Even if charged, they can hold the ground and win the combat.

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Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:52 am
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i agree with tethlis, not a big fan of the ring of hotek to put in my COK because you hardly get close enough to casters and even if you do, you might aswell run him down. I rather equip the champ with crimson death, or even deathpiercer if i got points to spare that is.

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Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:53 pm
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Right, after several tourneys in 8th ed rules, ROH does not work with COK.
I prefer by far the iron curse thing to grant +6 ward save against warmachines...

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Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:18 pm
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I figured i will just post this here, Instead of starting a new thread.
I am new and would like a bit of clarification. cause i will be running a unit of these sooner or later.

10 CoKs 2x5

1 attack each for the knights, and 1 attack each for the mounts,

so 10 for the knights re-rollable, 10 for the mounts, mounts got get hatred right?

how do i receive attacks? can i lose the knight but still keep the mount?, they each have 1 wound. how does that work? knights and mounts have 3 and 4 toughness respectively, does he have to allocate hits?
Also if i wanted the Hydra BSB, he needs to be on a cold one too right?

thanks.

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Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:36 am
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Warhammer abstracts things a bit where cavalry are concerned. A mount without a rider isn't much of a threat, and might even do something silly like leap on a spear trying to get at an opponent. A knight with his mount killed out from under him could well be severly injured in the fall. And if neither of these things happen, well, sooner or later an unmounted knight and a riderless mount meet up and make a whole model. So, rather than deal with all this hoopla, WH just says it's all one model, and makes it 16% harder to kill.

I don't believe Cold Ones get Eternal Hatred anymore. Pity.

The Hydra BSB doesn't need to be on a Cold One to join Cold One Knights. He could be on a Dark Steed, or even on foot. But the Cold One offers the best protection and good speed - not as fast as a Dark Steed, true, but if you are going to be running him with the COK anyway, you don't need the extra 2" of movement.


Now what confuses me is why COK are wounded as T3 (from the riders) rather than T4 (as the Cold Ones). The rules say combined models use the highest stat of the two, right?


Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:38 am
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For magic items, I usually give my champion:
Sword of Might (Less strength on charge, but gives the unit more staying power)
Ironcurse Icon (In case the enemy gets first turn and warmachines me, or if there's something else that gets the ward save)
Luckstone (Increases champions survivability by a good deal.

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Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:03 am
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Vulcan wrote:
Now what confuses me is why COK are wounded as T3 (from the riders) rather than T4 (as the Cold Ones). The rules say combined models use the highest stat of the two, right?


Check out the Cavalry troop type entry in the rulebook (p. 82 in the small one).

It specifically states, that the mount's Toughness and Wounds are not used.

Bye
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Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:48 am
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Quote:
Check out the Cavalry troop type entry in the rulebook (p. 82 in the small one).

It specifically states, that the mount's Toughness and Wounds are not used.

Bye
Thanee


Yeah, i read that when my HE friend came over. I beat him by the way.
I might put the Report up in a bit, it was another 500pt game.

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Rejoice and Revel in the Triumph of the Dark.

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Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:13 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 987
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Ah. There it is. :oops:

Good thing I never tried to push this one in game, I'd be even more embaressed. :lol:


Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:41 am
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