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Is a Witch Elf horde the most awsome thing ever? 
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Black Guard
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Hey, I have a ETC comped tournement coming in under a month, and I thought I had an idea of what are the best things we could fit such a list. I was wrong...


I was told of another Dark Elf player that is also comming to the same tournement and that he was using a horde of WE, and my first reaction was "Why don't he just use Corsairs?", but the more I think of it the more i want to use one aswell.


Here is why:

- With a comp of max 450 points for a unit and max 40 in a unit the WE fit in perfectly! You can get 40 WE with Full command and Banner of murder for 450 points!

- I always have a CoB and a lvl4 with Shadow. With the CoB bsb, my WE are stubborn and give I can give them 5+ ward if meeting heavy shooting, 1+ attack if i meet thing with low saves, or i can give them KB if i meet knights or WoC. Shadow magic works in the same way. Almost all Shadow spells have great synergy with the WE horde.

- They have I6! This is a thing that is often overlooked. This means that they would almost always hit first with a ton of poisoned AP attacks. I don't have anything in my current list that i would put up against such a unit.

- They are naturaly Frenzied and have poison! This means that the points and standard that you would use to get your corsairs as "Core Witch Elves" goes to give you lovely things as AP banner.

- This unit does not need the magic and CoB support that Black Guards and Corsairs need. The Black Guards almost always need CoB or shadow support to beat a unit of similar points value. Corsairs can't do s*t without support...But for the WE, hey are quick, and have poison, hatred, 3 attacks each and ITP. This means that they can take on a Ogre horde, Black Guards, deamonettes or just slaves and win almost every time! The CoB and Shadow are just there to make them better.


So these are my initial thoughts on why I want to use a Witch Elf horde in a ETC comped tournement.

Any comments on things that I have forgotten or not thought of?

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:10 am
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Well the naked ladies certainly deserve respect, but I would not go as far as 40. 30 is my limit, over that run a second unit.

They are ItP versus shooting and magic.

They will usually inflict an appalling amount of damage in the first round of combat.

Poison and 3 attacks is as good as 2 attacks without poison as far as KB is concerned in the first round of combat.

They really like Occam's Mind Razor.

They lack the stigma attached to Black Guard, though some people will whine after they have had their ass handed to them by the girls.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:46 pm
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I think its a great unit, chuck a COB behind them to make sure they are stubborn too!

Taking Corsairs though is a viable option. 450 points gets you 40 with FC and Frenzy. For this, your dropping Poison, I6 and AP (if you choose Banner of Murder). Instead, you pick up a 5+ save with 4+ against shooting, and the slavers rule which is always handy. Plus, as people tend to forget, you are filling up your core requirements, which you have to take anyway.

If you are going this kind of unit, your clearly taking Shadow for mindrazor and a COB for KB. Both of these makes AP and Poison redundant, which is where WEs strengths lie. And, I6 isnt really that much better than I5, so meh. Also, the COB will make the Witches stubborn. Then again, you dont want to be losing combat with this unit anyway... and the COB will be likely a BSB, giving the corsairs a fair chance to pass break tests anyway.

All up, both have strengths. Really comes down to whether you want to spend your special on other choices, or how your theming your list. The best thing about these two units is, you can take both :D

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:51 pm
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As one is core and the other is special you could always take both... now that would be pretty impressive. You'd be surprised though how useful that 4+ save against shooting is for Corsairs though, especially against gun line armies with a lot of low strength shooting. I used to run a few WE themed armies led by Crone Hellebron (naturally) and as amazing as they are when they reach combat, they do become pin cushions pretty easily. T3 and the COB as the only reliable way of giving them any save at all makes them probably one of the squishiest units in our army book. You'll be thankful for those SDC when facing Razordons and Skinks as I found out the hard way...

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:22 pm
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I like the WE. Please keep us posted on how you do

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:03 pm
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I always use WE, and they are awesome!

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:03 pm
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I've used big blocks of Witches before, starting with a unit of 40 and then whittling them away down to a block of 20, and more often than not 2 units of 8. My main reasoning is that between 20 and 40, you're paying an extra 200pta for 10 more attacks (which is a drop in the ocean for witch units) and the survivability. While that's not such a bad idea, I've found I more efficient to use those points on stuff that that has a role outside of just being a buffer. For example, that's almost 2 units of xbows or 11 shades.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:56 pm
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Witch Elves are brilliant. My group's been playing more and more 3k games (enough points for me to add 30 Witch Elves with Banner of Murder to my standard list) and they always perform incredibly. I've been so pleased that I may actually drop my Black Guard entirely in favor of Witch Elves at all points levels. They're really a phenomenal choice.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:42 pm
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Good to hear that someone has good things to say about the horde of crazy naked girls!

This is what i have in plan for my first WE horde list
http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=69364
(Scroll down)

Watcha think?

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Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:12 pm
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Yes WE are awesome but I personally would cap them at 30.

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Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:25 am
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Massed shooting can really ruin your day.

20 high elf bowmen, at long range, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s. They kill 5 on average.

35 lothern sea guard in 5 ranks of 7, at long range, volley firing (so 26 shots in all): hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s. They kill 6.5 on average.

20 Lothern sea guard in 4 ranks of 5, at long range, volley firing (so 16 shots in all): hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s. They kill 4 on average.

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers, multishotting at short range, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s. They kill 5.666 average.

High Elf hero with reaver bow hits on 2s at long rtange and kills on 2s. Three more dead.

So, in a single turn you've lost 25 witches. And that's at long range.

Don't get me wrong, I like witches and take them regularly. But do be aware of their weakness in this respect.

P.S. That's not a fictional set up, it forms part of the 3k army my high elf friend regularly plays against me. Now add in his standard dragon mage with flaming sword of rhuin buff, a chariot and some shadow warriors, and you get the idea of the kind of pain you can be facing.

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Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:22 pm
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I have my unit at 30 now aswell.

@ Red...: Massed shooting is always a problem against us elves. That kind of shooting would leave what, 2-3 Black Guards? Also remember that always should screen our precious Elite units, so now they have an additional -2 to hit for hard cover. And if I'm lucky (which i won't) I give them 5+WS from CoB.

Also, this is an ETCish comp, so max 45 archers with a range greater than 20".


What I'm most scared of now is smart players that can use my frenzy against me and force my WE to overrun out of position.
For this I have lots of shooting and 2x5 WE and 2X5 harpies that I can use to screen and kill diverters.

The biggest consern is Magic. One good fase with a Dwellers of another mass killing spell might render my unit useless. But for this I now got +1DD and a DS, so I hope thats enough.



Now, I'm thinking of either getting Manbane or RoK on my Champion. Is it worth it to probably in one round have 4 attacks that wound on 3+ or to have 5-7 poisoned attacks? Or should I just keep it cheap?

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Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:38 pm
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Keep your Witches near your general and BSB and Frenzy will rarely - if ever - bite you in the backside. It is a Leadership roll, after all.

By themselves, Witches will fail a Frenzy roll 10 times in 36 - around 28%. Pretty much 100% going to happen at least once per game. Keep them near the BSB for the reroll, you halve that right off. Now, while it is likely they will fail once per game, there shouldn't be a repeat.

With a Ld 9 general, they only fail 1 time in 6 (once a game), or one time in 12 (once per two games) with the BSB.

With a Ld 10 general - not hard to do with the Standard of Discipline - they only fail one time in 12, or one time in 24 (once per four games) with the BSB.

Of course, this all assumes that they will always rather maneuver than charge. In most games, they will be in close combat or actively trying to charge by turn three and it doesn't matter anymore. Halve those chances again.

Using a unit of harpies to block the charge lanes on that critical turn can reduce the chance of a frenzy charge to nearly 0%.

Frenzy can screw with your game. Minimal precautions can be used to prevent it. Stupidity on Cold Ones also can be minimized in much the same way.


Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:41 am
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Vulcan wrote:
Keep your Witches near your general and BSB and Frenzy will rarely - if ever - bite you in the backside. It is a Leadership roll, after all.

By themselves, Witches will fail a Frenzy roll 10 times in 36 - around 28%. Pretty much 100% going to happen at least once per game. Keep them near the BSB for the reroll, you halve that right off. Now, while it is likely they will fail once per game, there shouldn't be a repeat.

With a Ld 9 general, they only fail 1 time in 6 (once a game), or one time in 12 (once per two games) with the BSB.

With a Ld 10 general - not hard to do with the Standard of Discipline - they only fail one time in 12, or one time in 24 (once per four games) with the BSB.

Of course, this all assumes that they will always rather maneuver than charge. In most games, they will be in close combat or actively trying to charge by turn three and it doesn't matter anymore. Halve those chances again.

Using a unit of harpies to block the charge lanes on that critical turn can reduce the chance of a frenzy charge to nearly 0%.

Frenzy can screw with your game. Minimal precautions can be used to prevent it. Stupidity on Cold Ones also can be minimized in much the same way.


I'm just going to add to what Vulcan posted, I think your primary concern about using Witches is shooting. Frenzy can be avoided with the general/ BSB, positioning but if your opponent has moderate shooting, he can easily reduce your WE by half before they get into combat. Just be wary of that. WE have I6 anyway so the getting charged will be the least of your problems, getting multicharged however is an entirely different thing.

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Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:52 am
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what magic banner (if any) should be in a WE unit? w/o a CoB? w/ or w/o a BSB (but still no CoB?)

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Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:50 pm
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Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
what magic banner (if any) should be in a WE unit? w/o a CoB? w/ or w/o a BSB (but still no CoB?)


They don't need one, but banner of swiftness or banner of murder are good options. Because of their poison they are also a good choice for the flaming banner if you need a unit to kill abominations or other low armour, high toughness regen critters.

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Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:53 pm
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Banner of Murder or Banner of Flame. No to Banner of Swiftness for me. The additional range is good but the 2 inches adds more your the liability of your frenzy charge checks so not good. I'd rather you reduce his armor save even by a pip or scare the living ****off regenerating creatures or cause fear to cavalry units which could help their survivability.

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Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:14 am
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Another reason to take the flaming banner is because it allows rerolls when assaulting a building. The amount of wounds generate is freaking nuts. This is one the few units I have seen clear a goblin horde(100 models) from a building.
First choice is still banner of murder for it's all round utility.

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Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:43 am
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Azimyth wrote:
This is one the few units I have seen clear a goblin horde (100 models) from a building.
You can only kill 10 models per melee round from a building.
Every turn, this is a new melee, so you get hatred renewed.
Also, you're not fighting during opponent's turn.

Assuming you did charge during turn 1, that's a maximum of 6 times 10 WE attacking with 31 hatred attacks, rerolling wounds, certainly overkilling the 10 goblins they face (any volunteer? push them forwards!) which therefore cannot retaliate.
60 gobs not unlikely to be killed in 6 turns, but 100 is not possible.

Also, the gobs in their tower are steadfast. Killing the 10 of them or killing just one more than they do is the same.
In fact, you rely on them failing their Ld test, not on killing them all.

In this example, using a WE horde with flaming banner seems an overkill: the banner was not necessary and 40 WE were here just to witness the combat and absorb the gob's magic & shooting.

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Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:11 am
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Calisson, the rule in page 128 says that both sides chose 10 models to fight, but it also says (same page, section "Allocating attacks") that casualties are removed from the back of the unit as normal.

From my understanding, that means that casualties are in no way limited to 10, in the same way that casualties in a regular combat are not limited to the number of models suitable to attack.


Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:53 am
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Nope you can kill all of them Calisson. The building rules only specify that you choose 10 models. If they are rank and file models you "step up" to get those 10 models. If they actually made it so that you can kill only up to 10 models, you will almost never win against horde armies with watchtower.

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Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:04 am
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Red... wrote:
Massed shooting can really ruin your day.

20 high elf bowmen, at long range, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s. They kill 5 on average.

35 lothern sea guard in 5 ranks of 7, at long range, volley firing (so 26 shots in all): hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s. They kill 6.5 on average.

20 Lothern sea guard in 4 ranks of 5, at long range, volley firing (so 16 shots in all): hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s. They kill 4 on average.

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers, multishotting at short range, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s. They kill 5.666 average.

High Elf hero with reaver bow hits on 2s at long rtange and kills on 2s. Three more dead.

So, in a single turn you've lost 25 witches. And that's at long range.

Don't get me wrong, I like witches and take them regularly. But do be aware of their weakness in this respect.

P.S. That's not a fictional set up, it forms part of the 3k army my high elf friend regularly plays against me. Now add in his standard dragon mage with flaming sword of rhuin buff, a chariot and some shadow warriors, and you get the idea of the kind of pain you can be facing.




Well, I lost 23 WE on Dwelers on saturday... happy times:(

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Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:25 am
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i tried witch elf themed list with a horde of 60,a unit of 30 and a unit of 20 with hellebron and one assassin in the first and 2 cobs.I played against ogre and the result he conceded in 5th turn without even getting one point and having lost almost everything so i after that i tend to believe tha WE in a horde just rock!

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:53 pm
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Quote:
i tried witch elf themed list with a horde of 60,a unit of 30 and a unit of 20 with hellebron and one assassin in the first and 2 cobs.I played against ogre and the result he conceded in 5th turn without even getting one point and having lost almost everything so i after that i tend to believe tha WE in a horde just rock!


With all due respect, a single game does not make for a good generalisable example, especially against an army that often has limited shooting (depending on their army list). Yes, against melee armies - particularly ones with poor armour saves - witches with their high initiative, innumerous attacks and poison are incredible. But you would be unlikely to have had the same result if you had been playing against an army with lots of artillery, shooting and magic, or one with very heavily armoured melee troops. Hellebron really really hates high elves btw - it's a good idea to make sure you never run her against them.

Edit - Having just read your other post, it would seem that you tailored your army to beat your opponent's, knowing in advance exactly what forces he had. That's fine - it's a sin I'm too often guilty of myself. But don't imagine that a tailored army is a good all rounder army, it's not.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:30 pm
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Your are partly right but it was one of my targets to use a DE themed army so what better than temple of khaine forces i will this list many times and i will let you know the results with armies like night goblins,high elves,skaven,tomb kings,dwarves and soon VC so week by week i will post results and we'll see how effective they are and one more thing.I am new but i insist that assassin is the best way to kill something especially in a list like this were he can reach 9 str 6 or 5 attacks.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:22 pm
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