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Are Manticores Worth it? 
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:24 pm
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I am curious to see if anyone has had any luck with the manticores? It seems like in a 2500 point game, a hero on a manticore flying around wreaking havoc would be pretty useful. I don't want to buy it and be stuck with a useless model though. Has anyone had any success with this and how did you use it?


Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:32 am
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Noble

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I've never run one, the theory behind it just doesn't make sense- it's T5 with only a handful of wounds and no save of any sort. Most light shooting or mass combat attacks will bring it down.

it also has an awkward points value- if you just want to fly, for 50pts you can get a Peg that can't be shot out from underneath the rider. If you want a flying gribbly, for 120pts more you can get a dragon which is better in combat and harder to kill.

Having said that, it will still do some damage- I can see it having some sort of use in bigger games when you also have the dragon (in order to split the fire). But overall, in smaller games, the theory just doesn't work out for it.

I might be missing something though, but you're better off not getting one if you want to stick to competitive lists. There's so much more to the hobby than that though, I've got a manticore sitting around that's still on my to do list...

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:31 am
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I have used a couple of times, and it's fun and fluff for friendly games. But competitive vise, it's staying home. It's just to easy to kill, spes in CC cause of the no save. Sad actually, cause I think it's very nice model.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:15 am
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The manticore is one of those unbalanced things in our army book. While many complain about the War Hydra being to cheap, the manticore costs too much compared to what it can take and what it can do.

As mentioned already, if you want something quick and airborne for harass and take out skirmish/warmachines, we have the Dark Pegasus. If you want more bang for the buck, you could just as well get the black dragon.

When we get a new armybook (in some years probably... just before a new edition of warhammer), we'll probably see a manticore that is worth it, but today I don't think they are.


Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:40 am
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Corsair

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Manticores are awesome! unfortunatelly their rules arent.
I like to play them sometimes in friendly games when i know i won't be facing any cannons.. But other than a cool model with an awesome fluff.. It's really not worth it at all. As many others have said here, Pegs and Dragons are much more viable options if you want a flying awesome killing machine.


Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:06 am
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Short answer: No.

Long Answer: Hell no.

The only time I would consider using the Manticore is with a comp I saw when all those unused 200 point monsters (Manticores, wyverns, and so on) was comped to only cost 50 points. Even then I still consider using the awsome pegasus.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:40 am
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Slave on the Altar

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Our current beast master model on a manticore isn't that big. With tue line of sight your opponent has to be able to see your body, not just wings or tail? If so you wouldn't have too hard a time hiding him


Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:00 pm
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Highborn

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I ran a Manticore a few days ago at 2400 and it wasn’t too bad. I had to plan the list to work with the Manticore. Plenty of units to remove warmachines. X2 harpies and a shade unit. Back up by big blocks that would remove focus from the Manticore + the Hydra has a feared rep.

Supreme Sorceress (lvl4) – 285
Sacrificial Dagger

Master – 348
HA,SDC, Dragon Helm, Beastmasters Scourge
Ring of Darkness, Manticore

CoB - 225
BsB

30 Spearmen -225
FC, Shields

21 Corsairs (7x3) - 263
FC (Champ w x2 RHB)
SSS

20 RxB Men - 225
Shields, Musician

2x5 Harpies – 110

10 Knights – 270

14 WE - 160
Standard + Flame Banner

6 Shades- 102
AHW

Hydra – 175

Its hard to get over the complex as a Druchii player that the Manticore is suboptimal to the Hydra or a Pegasus in the Monster department. Most players have never played against one and for this reason my game was easy as my opponent (O&G) was concerned about what the Manticore could do. Even x3 Spearchuka’s didn’t deter me from using him aggressively. He finished the game with 2 wounds left but would have died if I had not de-buffed units Strength or WS against it. Manticore has I5!! Even I was surprised when I checked.

It’s a section of your army that needs to be synchronised well with the rest of the army, my list selections were based on things that would help and compliment the Manticore without making it my focus. The 2400 list above is my 2000 with a few increased units a Manticore and Shades, so I know how to play the list well.

Id say proxy one and give it a go. Or buy the SoM one, I know it gets some bad rep for being a less than ideal sculpt but it does have a resale ability that SoM armies and Chaos can use it. I have SoM Manticore. Unpainted £18 off ebay. That’s reason enough im running one at the moment.

Good luck


Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:55 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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Man that is a bummer! I didn't even notice it didn't have a save! That is really nuts for 200 points and come on! Look at the model. It looks tough as hell.

Good points on the awkward points value. It doesn't really fit in well between what it can do and the cost.

Oh well, I'll probably still get one eventually, but I will definitely get the dragon first.


Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:10 pm
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It dies too fast to all too common S4 shooting. If your opponent knows how to deal with it, don't expect it to do much.

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Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:12 am
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It's just too vulnerable in this edition. The Storms of Magic Manti is even better than our regular one.

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Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:48 am
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I disagree, the manti is viable, but only really in two possible scenarios:

1 - Your army is very very fast and filled with lots of similar targets. For example, if you are running a 3k list with 2+ hydras, dragon lord, chariots and cold one knights. In that scenario, the manti may either get ignored or if it does soak up fire, it's taking it away from other possible targets. This kind of army moves across the table on turn one and slams into the enemy in turn two. That means your opponent has at most two turns (and quite possibly just one) to shoot at it. You may get away unscatched.

2 - Your opponent has little or no shooting or magic (e.g. a warrior heavy warriors of chaos army). Then you can use the manti to cut down small-medium sized enemy units (just be careful not to throw him up against something that will be able to do a lot of damage against him - e.g. a big block of chaos warriors).

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Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:03 pm
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the manti needs to be reduced by about 100 pt to be viable


Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:21 am
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Corsair

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I have been using the manticore for a while now and usually don't leave home without it. Here is why:

Its not a dragon. So don't treat it as one. Its a surgical unit with alot of stopping power.

It's not meant for lords it's for your hero choice. Not many armies have the option to mount one of their heros on a flying monster.

It can fly!!!!!! This alone should make it hard enough for people to touch. You should be hiding it behind terrain as you move up.

I usually use it to take out small to medium sized knight units or to character hunt. It's perfect for those things that just get in the way of your bigger plans for the battle.

I will kit him with the ring of hotec and deathpeircer. 7 high strength killing blow flying attacks with thunderstomp.

Get it behind enemy lines fast near an enemy wizard and wait for the right chance to strike.

Pays for itself every time.

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Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:50 pm
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Quote:
Are Manticores Worth it?

No, take a pegasus instead.
NEXT! :D

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:14 am
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Highborn
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Boltshot525 wrote:
I have been using the manticore for a while now and usually don't leave home without it. Here is why:

Its not a dragon. So don't treat it as one. Its a surgical unit with alot of stopping power.

It's not meant for lords it's for your hero choice. Not many armies have the option to mount one of their heros on a flying monster.

It can fly!!!!!! This alone should make it hard enough for people to touch. You should be hiding it behind terrain as you move up.

I usually use it to take out small to medium sized knight units or to character hunt. It's perfect for those things that just get in the way of your bigger plans for the battle.

I will kit him with the ring of hotec and deathpeircer. 7 high strength killing blow flying attacks with thunderstomp.

Get it behind enemy lines fast near an enemy wizard and wait for the right chance to strike.

Pays for itself every time.


A Dark Pegasus can essentially do the almost exact same thing minus the price and the vulnerability.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:27 am
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Red... wrote:
I disagree, the manti is viable, but only really in two possible scenarios:

1 - Your army is very very fast and filled with lots of similar targets. For example, if you are running a 3k list with 2+ hydras, dragon lord, chariots and cold one knights. In that scenario, the manti may either get ignored or if it does soak up fire, it's taking it away from other possible targets. This kind of army moves across the table on turn one and slams into the enemy in turn two. That means your opponent has at most two turns (and quite possibly just one) to shoot at it. You may get away unscatched.

2 - Your opponent has little or no shooting or magic (e.g. a warrior heavy warriors of chaos army). Then you can use the manti to cut down small-medium sized enemy units (just be careful not to throw him up against something that will be able to do a lot of damage against him - e.g. a big block of chaos warriors).


At 3k points you can almost take anything you want...but do realize that most people play 2k-2500 at most so unless it's a large game, no Manticores stay home. At 3k you are already considered as a grand army so really cheesy as it may sound, I'm taking 4 boring Hydras instead for the points and just have fun. 3k games aren't as "balanced" as 2k-25 games.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:29 am
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Mod's note:

A potentially interesting discussion.
Please don't discard Manti too quickly, it may have a potential that was underestimated so far.

Lord Tsunami's two line post is funny but otherwise doesn't bring anything to the tactical discussion.

Ichiyo1821's one line post lacks argument, and actually may not be true. Could you explain how your Peggymaster does "take out small to medium sized knight units"?

A really interesting contribution would be a point per point comparison between Mantimaster and Peggymaster,
comparing optimal equipment, cost, vulnerability to shooting, magic and melee,
comparing the possible uses, considering the potential rest of army,
evaluating the most appropriate tactical behaviour,
and drawing the conclusion AFTER the comparison is made, not BEFORE.

Thank you all for your - real - participation.

Calisson

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:07 am
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Highborn
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...Hasn't there been a thread a couple of months back about Manticores??

Point for point.

Manticores are 200 points each

Dark Pegasus are 50 points each

That is a quarter of the Manticore. Provided you put the same kitted out lord or it.
When it comes to hitting power, yes the Manticore wins out with s5 compared to s5 of the DP which is only on the charge plus the KB. HOWEVER...

You are investing an additional 150 points for that extra pip of strength to do let's say kill that 5 Chaos Knights or what ever. For you to do that with a Manticore you have strike them preferably from the flank or rear as Manti's don't have an armor save and any smart general would always aim for the Manti first to generate ACR as compared to attacking the rider who may be an POK Dreadlord, a 1+/2+/wardsave character or regen lord. Now with no armor save, large target, large actual model and top of being a prime target for template and canons, ask your self is it really worth it? If you are facing armies with no shooting, that are not horde or have warmachines then maybe you can use the Manticore. Now what are the armies out there that don't have either? You can't break ranks, you have no armor, you have a large target painted on your forehead as compared to a cheaper mount with a respectable number of attacks, less likely to have LOS on canons and what nots, have a smaller profile plus you don't have to worry about hiding it all the time. In my opinion the merits do not equal or surpass the liabilities.

The only true distinct advantages a Manti has over the DP is KB and the possible 18" ld range but aside from that, for the possible optimum usage of a flying character, a DP can do almost everything what you would want out of Manti. The added damage caused by the Manti can be offset by the more maneuverable DP. With the Manticore you have to be careful of where you land it so the best you can get is a flank against a unit where as a DP can easily fly out 20 from the start and set up a rear charge thus creating 3SCR off the bat. With a smaller base, less models get to strike the actual character making it even more survivable. The added 200 points if i am not mistaken also eats up your hero slot allowance thus making your hero slot tighter than it should.

Another point to consider is using a Manticore against every single army out there then compare that to a DP and see that against the 14 other armies including DE, the Manticore has a lot more units, items, spells that can render it useless or kill it outright than a DP wherein the benefits and risks of fielding one is not equal to its merits...anyone care to say otherwise?

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Last edited by Ichiyo1821 on Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.



Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:38 am
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@ Ichiyo, thanks for the clarification.
Your post above is much more like what is expected from a fine seasoned tactitian such as you.

Checking the compared vulnerability with the 14 opposing armies could be worth doing. Did anyone do it thoroughly?

To be fair, don't compare the 200p Manti with the 50p Peggy, none of them exist as unit.
Rather compare a 300p Mantimaster with a 150p Peggymaster, or a 400p Mantilord with a 250p Peggylord.
Also, acknowledge that killing the 4 wounds Manti might be easy but it brings no VP as long as the 2 wounds Master survives; so the opponent's efforts could be considered partially wasted, compared to killing the 3 wounds Peggymaster which provides full VP.

The latest discussion about the Manti that I can find is dated Mar 15, 2011:
Master on Manticore. What's the best setup?
There was not much reflexion so I didn't D.R.A.I.C.H.ed it.
Nothing else in 2011 (not much in 2010, either).

As for your other post, I moved it there=> A discussion about the Tactics Forum. I thought it deserved a thread in itself.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:32 am
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Calisson wrote:
Also, acknowledge that killing the 4 wounds Manti might be easy but it brings no VP as long as the 2 wounds Master survives; so the opponent's efforts could be considered partially wasted, compared to killing the 3 wounds Peggymaster which provides full VP.

That's only half the story though. It's generally much easier to kill a t5 4 wound model than a t3 1+ save model with either the pendant or dawnstone. If I can kill the manticore, I am almost certain to break the master/dreadlord in combat unless he has the crown od command.

If he had the crown of command, he certainly didn't need a fairly easily killed monster as his mount.

The problem is compounded by the pegasus' extremely low price in 8th, where it's value has undoubtably risen. Flying, +1 armour and some extra attacks is definately worth more than 50pts for a lord... add in a free wound for masters and the cost should probably be nearer 100pts for him. Then factor in that DE have a few magical comboes to make him resistant to war machine fire as opposed to ridden monsters who have been penalised by more accurate war machines and cannons which hit both parts of the model.

The questions I ask myself when I think of fielding a large monster are;
Can I afford to lose this model before my first turn (since cannons and stone throwers are more than capable of this)? How many viable targets are there for it? (Generally, monsters should avoid large blocks with high strength), Can it take on units on it's own or is it a support unit? Is it good value for it's points?

In general, I have found manticores too expensive to justify most of these risks. I still play one from time to time because I love the models, but the only army I have faced that it has been worthwhile against regularly is VC, where there is no artillery and wounds count doubly for kills. Here, a manticore master with black dragon egg has proved an excellent support unit for witches/knights with the pair being able to destoy 30's of ghouls in a single charge.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:20 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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I myself have been trying to make the manticore work.

Given that the Druchii have some of the BEST monsters for so cheap, it's easy to think that the Manticore isn't worth it.

(I come from beastmen, where our Jabber is 1/2 the monster the manticore is and 50 more points)

The best comment I've read so far was "it's not a dragon, it's a surgical tool".
The Manticore should not be flying in solo to a fight or in a frontal attack vs most units.

As a supporting unit, with a well equiped HERO (not lord), it can support Peglords/ Dragon lords and flank charges/ rear charges.

With it's high I, good strength, it can allocate and take out many targets, esp if a Hero, BSB, lord 'makes way'.
THUNDER STOMP is HUGE! you should only be attacking rank and file units, so this can route most.

A common situation is: Dragon lord charges in, Awesome Lord of Unkillable awesome challenges, and even if the Lord wins, the unit still wins CR on ranks and Banners (BSBs).
now,With the manticore in the SAME fight, you can tear into his R&F infantry and get combat rez galore.

Not only that, but along the SUPPORT route, you can Miasma the units WS down (since most take shadow) or Enfeebling them so that they have to roll 6's. Or, use Word of PAIN to make their WS utter crap.
with only a FEW people able to attack the Manticore (as it's FLANK or rear), you should have no problem keeping him alive, winning combat and swift-striding to catch any units that run.

No, he's not the MOST competitive thing we Druchii have, but hell, if every list is going to run the most tweaked out "ubermax" we might as well have only 4 options.

Having a flying, thunderstomping, killing blow, terror causing monster in your back ranks is enough to give most people worry.

Many battles are psychological.
Hell, my beastmen raiders have distracted enough generals to give me the edge I needed. If they can do that, imagine what a manticore can do.

In larger games, there's nothing stopping you from a flock of monsters

Dragon lord
Pegasus Hero/bsb
Manticore Hero
Peg-sorc.

(lots of harpies)

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:29 pm
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Quote:
No, he's not the MOST competitive thing we Druchii have, but hell, if every list is going to run the most tweaked out "ubermax" we might as well have only 4 options.

Having a flying, thunderstomping, killing blow, terror causing monster in your back ranks is enough to give most people worry.


I concur. Sometimes its nice to win games by running very powerful lists, but it's nice to mix things up a bit, even at the lower levels.

Quote:
At 3k you are already considered as a grand army so really cheesy as it may sound, I'm taking 4 boring Hydras instead for the points and just have fun.


This is a bit of an odd comment. A lot of games now are played at the 3k level, and they remain as tactical if not more so than 2k or 2.5k games.

Also Taking 4 hydras might be fun for you, it certainly won't be much fun for your opponent.

A manticore has its strengths and weaknesses, and it's certainly not necessarily an optimum choice. But, in an army with a lot of other high priority targets, it may successfully avoid getting shot down, and against an army with little or no shooting the manti will do very well indeed (I have found mantis particularly useful for killing units of chaos knights, for example).

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:45 pm
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While I think it would be cool to mount my general on one, as it's still cheaper than a dragon and can still rip things aparat, it has two main flaws and most of which are within 8th edition.


It has average toughness for a monster, 5, so while you'll be needing 5's and 6's on average to wound, it's still possible, espesialy if you have a hale of shooting such as from HE, DE, WE, Dwarf, and Empire armies can take.

2. No armor, so while many monsters lake that (giants, griffons and what not), this is a liability without a wardsave.

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Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:32 am
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People in our area find 3k games taking too long even for veterans. I'd love to play 3k games but at that pointage when I can pretty much take anything I just have fun. I once fielded 24 COK and and a Dragonlord :lol:

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Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:25 pm
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