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D.R.A.I.C.H. Statistics on our elite troops (updated 6/10) 
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Hi folks!

Lately I have seen plenty of topics on weather BG or Witches are better troops. This is naturally very dependent on what you are fighting, but more importantly, many people seem to miss that executioners cost roughly the same points, they become stubborn with the cauldron and against many unit types they perform very similarly. Therefore I did the math (as I tend to do when no one is watching, lol) and I will try to present it here in a way that should be easy to understand.


In these calculations I will assume that you have a unit 20 man strong (because of the limitations of BG) that is deployed 7 guys wide, and you have full command group. I did NOT count on any magic items/gifts on the champions, since that is very customizable. Also I assumed that you have Banner of Murder on all units. You could skip this on the executioners, and use the flaming banner instead, and it wouldn’t change the result in any big way. This will of course allow them to murder anything with regeneration without reducing their ability to murder normal troops in any meaningful way. Putting flaming banner on witches or BG will however reduce their usefulness substantially against other units, and therefore it is very uncommon. I did not calculate (yet) for larger units of WE or Executioners, but I will probably make a comparison between a horde of WE and one of Executioners. Also, remember that these results do not show everything. The enemy will usually get to hit you back, and then the Witches are usually more vulnerable than BG or executioners.


The calculations are made by calculating the number of wounds each unit would cause against the intended target and then dividing the results by the number of points they cost. This becomes a tiny number, but it will show in a very good way how the different elites compare to each other on a “points for points” basis.


I did not include any buffs on the units, such as the cauldron or magic buffs. This is because there are just so many possibilities to combine the two, but all in all you can say that the cauldron buff will benefit executioners the most (+1A for them is stronger than KB or +1A for Witches/BG in most reasonable cases) but witches will benefit the most from magic buffs such as mind razor because of their huge number of attacks. If you want the exact numbers you will have to crunch them yourselves ;)


Also, I did not include any ward saves the foe may have. The reason is simple. Ward saves do not affect the relative results. Yes your unit will do less wounds, but the reduction is the exact same for all alternatives.


I did however include our special rules, such as hatred, poison and killing blow. Also I calculated for the first round (with hatred) and subsequent rounds (without hatred, except for BG). In short you can say that a big bar in the diagram means good, and a small bar means bad :D Now, on to the results!


First up we have infantry. I chose to test against 4 common versions of enemy infantry, and here are the results:
Image




Next, we have Cavalry. There are many different types of cavalry, and I chose 4 of the more common ones. Here are the results:
Image




Last and definitely not least we have the monstrous types. I included ogres here since they are now a real threat to everything. People might actually choose to play them! Here are the results. Remember that the hydras regeneration is not included, so most of the time you will only cause half the number of wounds, but again, the relative results will not change.
Image




I will not draw any conclusions myself here, but I hope this data will help you guys to draw your own conclusions on what to chose against different opponents. I hope I will find the time to update these results with hordes as well in the future. We shall see. Thank you for reading.

/T



EDIT/UPDATE:

I have now made the calculations for a horde. Since BG has a limit of 20 soldiers, i have not included them here. I am still assuming Banner of Murder on both units, and I am assuming that you have a cauldron to buff them with (it would be silly to take a horde of khainites and no CoB). Surprisingly(to some maybe?) It is not a good idea to buff witches with Killing blow unless they are fighting against targets with a very high Armour Save. These results are for executioners always buffed with +1A and Witches buffed with +1A against infantry and monsters, but with killing blow against cavalry (yep, i can actually calculate for how poison and killing blow interacts). I am also assuming that you have at least 30 models alive to strike. As you can see the diagrams are now turned the other way, and sorted a bit differently. The red bars are now executioners, and the blue are for WE. 1 and 2 on the x-axis stands for round 1 and round 2(and on).



First we have fights against other infantry. The results may be surprising to some. Witches only beat the executioners against WS3, T3 targets!
Image



Next we have cavalry. It should come as no surprise that executioners stand out here. Next! ;)
Image



Last we have the monsters. It is not reasonable to assume that the monster has a wide enough base for all your horde to strike, but the relative results will not change if less than a 10 model frontage can make contact since witches and executioners have the same base size.
Image



As you can see, executioners scale very very well when they are deployed as a horde. They also scale better with the CoB buff than Witches do. the reason for this is very simple. Executioners go from having 2 attacks per "file" to having 4 attacks per file. That is an increase by 100%. Witches on the other hand go from having 4 to having 6 attacks per file, a measly 50% increase when deployed as a horde with the CoB buff.


Last edited by Lord tsunami on Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:16 am, edited 2 times in total.



Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:01 am
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Love the charts, they are really useful!

Would be easier to compare if all the charts were to the same scale, but otherwise great job!

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:13 am
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they shouldnt be in the same scale, because you should not compare one chart to the other. they are only useful to compare which unit preforms bets against a specific opponent.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:27 am
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Very useful charts, thank you very much for doing them.

I think, though, that they miss out a lot of vital info (which to be fair you do acknowledge). But a lot of it is very game changing. For example:

- Executioners always strike last. That's huge, as many will die before they even get to strike.
- Witch elves have no armour save. That's crucial too, as many will die at the end of round 1, unless they rout the enemy.
- Blackguard are immune to psychology and witch elves are immune as long as they frenzied. That means no fear or terror tests (no risk of running away if charged by a terror causing creature and no risk of WS being reduced to 1)
- Executioners and witch elves are just leadership 8. That means they are far more likely to fail a break test, even when they are stubborn from ranks or the cauldron.
- Executioners and witch elves cannot have non-khainite characters included in them. That means no useful magic items like ring of darkness.

I'm not mentioning these to be irksome or pedantic, but rather to indicate that I think that charts like yours - while extremely useful and informative - have definite limitations that need to be very much so taken into consideration. Blackguard, for me anyway, are as much about their reliable staying power and hero containment as they are about winning combats.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:46 am
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all those points are indeed valid, but alas, they can not be expressed in this simple a diagram. these diagrams can however be used to check the relative difference in hitting power. if the hitting power is similar, then BGs would be my choice too, since they have both armour and better Ld. they are indeed our most reliable troop. they also come out as second best option in almost all of the cases above, so they are indeed a very strong option (i use them myself)

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:08 pm
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Lord Tsunami wrote:
PS. If you find this worthy of DRAICH I would be honored to have it linked in there.
As this article shows some real research, I will even rate it three stars!

The conclusions that could be drawn:
- WE are the best against high T or low AS, but if they loose, they loose big;
- Execs are the best against high AS, but need to be in very large units;
- BG are never the best choice but they are all-around and need not to be in large numbers.

Information good to know when you build your army list, and good to have in mind during the battle: use the right tool for the right task.

Thanks.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:51 pm
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I like the charts! They emphasize the strengths of each unit and are somewhat different than I expected. However I think they are misleading in one criteria: from what I can deduce the charts all assume the Dark Elves are striking first. Obviously Executioners will never be striking first and other times the Black Guard and Witch Elves won't be either. Adding in that factor radically changes the output (for Executioners at any rate)

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:20 pm
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I would say that looking at the unit size most people use exec's there would be enough bodies to get full attacks back for the first round at least, so I would say it would be a fair assumption for the first round but I agree with Phierlihy regarding later rounds of combat with the Execs, striking last becomes a big factor for our Khainite brethren.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:41 pm
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Great data, useful information, nice graphs.

Obviously we're seeing Witch Elves perform quite well in most circumstances, with Black Guard being a pretty middle-of-the-road option which performs alright versus all opponents but doesn't excel either.

I think the natural killing power of WE/Execs shines through, but they're also cheaper in point cost than BG (Witch Elves are significnat cheaper, enough to really affect the numbers here.)

This data is great, and doesn't need to be modified from its existing form, but it's also useful to remember the other advantages/disadvantages these units have that aren't listed here.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:07 pm
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@calisson
thank you sir :)

@phierlihy
yes, i assume you have at least 14 models alive so that all can fight. naturally some will die after a while.

@tethlis
note that the difference in point cost is already factored in to the graphs.

@all
i will probably post the data for a horde of WE/executioners tomorrow. some may be surprised by the results ;)

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:35 pm
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Ok, so i added the statistics for hordes in the first post.

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Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:21 am
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Lord Tsunami wrote:
Executioners scale better with the CoB buff than Witches do. the reason for this is very simple. Executioners go from having 2 attacks per "file" to having 4 attacks per file. That is an increase by 100%. Witches on the other hand go from having 4 to having 6 attacks per file, a measly 50% increase when deployed as a horde with the CoB buff.
No.
The COB grants one more attack per model, but the rear model is still capped at 1 attack. So the COB increases the file's attacks by 1 only.
Execs go from 2 to 3 attacks per file (or 4 in a horde & COB), while WE go from 4 to 5 (or 6 with a horde & COB's +1 attack).
What you should compare is COB's +1 attack for Execs to COB's KB for WE.
If you are willing to make the stats & graphs, that should prove interesting.

Also, note that Execs striking last will be reduced to non-horde status before they strike, contrary to WE.

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Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:31 am
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To my statistician background, this graphs are like candy :P !

One question though: what happens to the graphs when giving the cauldron +1A buff to the black guard? I understand they cannot be horde, and are not included in the second set of graph. However, they should catch up (partially) with the witch elves, as they are gaining proportionally more from the buff, no?

Or, as I remain a noob, is it a bad idea to give the buff to the BG, when another unit is nearby?


Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:59 pm
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@calisson
they go from 2 attacks per file to 4 when they get the cauldron buff AND are deployed as a horde. 2 from the guy in the first rank and 1 each from two guys behind him. sorry if i was unclear. i was speaking of the combined benefit of horde formation and CoB.

@pharol
the +1A buff is more important the fewer attacks the models have to begin with. executioners have one attack each and an extra attack is huge then. witches has 3 attacks each and an extra attack is less important. BG are in the middle. This is the relative bonus though, so for actual bonus kills, the only thing that matters is the quality of the extra attack. executioners gain one extra ws5 S6 attack with KB, while BG gets an extra WS5 S4 attack. obviously executioners benefit more :)

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Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:07 pm
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Great charts, reall god work!!

Anyone gonna change their setup after this???

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Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:36 pm
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I find the best buff from the cauldron for executioners is almost always the 5+ ward. Because they are attacking last, the goal is to preserve as many as possible for subsequent rounds.

It also comes in handy if you are lucky enough to win the combat and break your foe, as you have some additional protection vs shooting and magic, whereas the +1a is only good while in combat .

It's not just your turn that you have to consider, it's also your opponent's.

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Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:22 pm
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nice graphs, but i think most of us have already done these numbers by hand, plus we already know the results- BG are best all rounders, but have a limit of 20. witch elves are best vs no/low armor units, and very high toughness units. executioners shine vs high armor/above average toughness units but suffer from striking last (being forced to have a huge unit of 40+ in order to get strikes back)

personally i dont like executioners (statistically), because vs any type of elite infantry you're gonna lose 15 models or more before you strike back. which limits you to one big fight all game and forces you to take a unit of 40 or more. the fluff and the models, i love, and i think if they up the magic banner limit to 50 (so you can take the ASF banner without a bsb) they would be a fantastic choice. otherwise even with 40 its risky, because if u take some magic/missle/template punishment beforehand, ure limited to facing support units only. meanwhile 10 witches/BG can face any unit headon and still deal good punishment

i think a unit of BG is mandatory in every DE list over 1500, and so are witch elves so...


Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:06 am
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Monstrum wrote:
personally i dont like executioners (statistically), because vs any type of elite infantry you're gonna lose 15 models or more before you strike back. which limits you to one big fight all game and forces you to take a unit of 40 or more.


Apart from Swordmasters, what elite infantry will kill 15 a turn? And you shouldnt be charging/ getting into combat with those kind of units.

And to be fair, its just as easy to kill BG than Exec, and even easier to kill WEs. So unless you wipe the unit (which against the units that are apparently killing 15 a turn, is gunna be pretty hard), you will suffer around the same amount of casualties.

Yes striking last is setback, and you do need to take a few extra models. But, I think people need to get over to mental barrier, because stepping up makes striking last far less of an issue than people make it out to be.

And, executioners are great, just look at the graphs.

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Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:59 am
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just off the top of my head, witch elves, corsairs (with SS standard), BG, swordmasters, horde white lions, savage orc big uns, horde black orcs, trolls, squig horde, any type of chaos warriors, chosen, flail khorne marauder horde, bloodletter horde, centigors, temple guard, and a lot of units would get close with a hero (saurus, hammerers, tomb guard, grave guard, etc)

ive done the math... witch elves and Bg are better in most situations in the sizes i can afford to take them (20-24 max)

a similiar comparison would be say a unit of 6-8 mino's with GW. nobody takes mino's because they suck. on paper you have 18-24 ws4 str6 attacks, which is amazing, but in reallity vs elite infantry being so fragile you're gonna lose half your unit before you even get a hit in. if they had ASF i guarantee you're gonna see atleast 2 units in every beastmen list.

edit- even with 10 casualties (not that hard) the problem is that it forces you to take a BIG unit (30 to 40+) and you're still at a disadvantage vs hard hitters. not only that, but i dislike massive deathstar units since theyre way too easy to divert. if they allowed execs to have a magic banner of up to 50pt so we can take ASF, they would be fantastic. keep in mind the graphs dont take into account remaining numbers once u fall under 20


Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:47 pm
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I've let my BG on the shelve since the beginning of 8th... I've come to the same conclusion as you.

What I've found to improve the strength of the executionner is to give them +1mvt.

1- They can search more easely for flank, when they hit a flank, they DESTROY units, cause you get less attacks at you.
2- The bonus on mvt make them better to run at the unit they are the best against: cavalry.

@Sula, I've come the a different conclusion than you, executionner are better with +1A than with the ward. The answer is simple: they are the best at killing thing, the more you kill the more you can receive dmg and still win. With common 3+ re-roll to hit and 2+ to wound with -3armor.. they kill a LOT.

If you want to make math with the cauldron, here some simple rule:

- Witches need +1A except when facing unit with 4+ save or better, then you give them KB. Ward is bad in close, only in the first turns of the game, when they move.
- Executionner need +1A except when against WS5 or better, Str4 or better (or WS4 Str5) and 2A or more. Then you give the ward.
- BG need KB and +1A to really shine... Can follow the same rule as for the witches, maybe with save 3+ instead of 4+.

I really suggest that you includ the fact that executionner strike last. What I suggest is that you find the normal dead count in each table, and substract that amount from the executionner before turn 1 AND before turn 2. And that you substract that amount only before turn 2 for the 2 others.

And you must includ the fact that BG are stuck at 20. With your last 2 table, you could compare unit at same point cost, with full cmdt (since BG cmdt cost more). Exemple:
20 BG full cmdt AP banner, 320pts
23 Exec, full cmdt, +1mvt, 321pts
27 Witches, full cmdt, AP , 320pts


Good luck


Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:14 pm
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a18no wrote:
- Witches need +1A except when facing unit with 4+ save or better, then you give them KB. Ward is bad in close, only in the first turns of the game, when they move.


Maybe its because I field my Witch Elves 40 or 50 Strong in a 3k game and most of the time I fight against other horde units but I almost always give them the ward save.

- I rather save a bunch of them, so I can fight with max ranks longer.
Then have 10 extra Attacks resulting in a few wounds.
- I think about the next turn, maybe I win combat and end up out of combat ready to be shot to pieces in my opponents shooting/magic phase.
- When my Remain in play spells are dispelled I still have some protection.
(Enfeebling Foe for example)


I only use Killing blow against Cav and +1A on my CoK charge maybe (but even then at 27pts per model i rather give them the ward save)


Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:57 pm
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Persuader wrote:
a18no wrote:
- Witches need +1A except when facing unit with 4+ save or better, then you give them KB. Ward is bad in close, only in the first turns of the game, when they move.


Maybe its because I field my Witch Elves 40 or 50 Strong in a 3k game and most of the time I fight against other horde units but I almost always give them the ward save.

- I rather save a bunch of them, so I can fight with max ranks longer.
Then have 10 extra Attacks resulting in a few wounds.
- I think about the next turn, maybe I win combat and end up out of combat ready to be shot to pieces in my opponents shooting/magic phase.
- When my Remain in play spells are dispelled I still have some protection.
(Enfeebling Foe for example)

I only use Killing blow against Cav and +1A on my CoK charge maybe (but even then at 27pts per model i rather give them the ward save)


With a unit of 40-50 witches, you don't break your opponent??? You're playing against what?? I've NEVER been stucked in a combat with my unit of witches that were on the +1A buff from the cauldron...

How many unit of 40-50 are you playing? If every other unit you play are of 20 or less, I understands your point. But I'm playing 3 to 4 unit 30-40 strong, against equal opponent. Meaning that he have something else to shoot OR they overcharge in other units. The best place to be protect from magic and shooting is still to be in close with +1A at Ini6, not having a 5+ward!! :twisted:


Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:54 pm
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Against 18 Ogres + characters.
And they can ditch out some attacks !!!
I run a 50 strong unit of warriors as well.
10Cok's
24RXB
20 Corsairs
2 Hydra's
CoC
2x5Harpies


Obviously when I would run into 6 maneaters I don't need the 5+WS (hopefully) but then again I probably don't need the +1A neither.


Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:35 pm
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Persuader wrote:
Against 18 Ogres + characters.
And they can ditch out some attacks !!!
I run a 50 strong unit of warriors as well.
10Cok's
24RXB
20 Corsairs
2 Hydra's
CoC
2x5Harpies


Obviously when I would run into 6 maneaters I don't need the 5+WS (hopefully) but then again I probably don't need the +1A neither.


Ok on the ogres. But I've never said that the rule are rule to follow with no questions. You're talking about a really specific situation in which you need more thinking, like you did!

But the topic is still a generic idea of each elite, and I sincerely think that my rules can followed in this topic.


Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:40 am
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I just think in any case.
+1 A gives you between (lets say) 5 and 10 extra attacks.

From the moment you fight another horde unit or some WoC filth the 5+ wards saves (a real opponent, not some medium sized empire unit)

Anyway,
ward save does it for me.


Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:07 am
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