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Stubborn champion congaline? 
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Black Guard
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So this a tactic that I remember hearing about when 8th first came out, but now I hear people are starting to use it again.

You have a small unit of 5 Witch Elves/Black Guards/White Lions that are stubborn and have a champion in front in a congaline. He charges you, but he can only hit on your champion. You loose by a lot, but stay with stubborn the rest of your 4 guys.

Your small unit worth 60-80 points can hold up a massive unit for atleast 2 rounds.


First of all, does this still work? I thought that this was Faq'ed or something becouse I haven't heard about it for so long.

Are people still using this trick? I know it is as dirty as you can get, but if others use it, I want to fight fire with fire.



Any thoughts?

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Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:14 pm
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it doesn't if not for the simple reason that "massive " units will usually have a character , who strikes at diffrent I , it would work against high elves but it isn't realy in the spirit of the game, since it is a game.


Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:19 pm
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flash29 wrote:
it doesn't if not for the simple reason that "massive " units will usually have a character , who strikes at diffrent I , it would work against high elves but it isn't realy in the spirit of the game, since it is a game.


But if you challenge, the others behind can't be targeded?

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Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:21 pm
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I know it's not in the spirit of the game, but i'm hearing that some others are planing on using it on the upcomming tournament. So I just want to know if it still works, and how i can stop it, exept with shooting.

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Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:30 pm
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Whats potentially worse is doing it with BG and giving the champion Armour of Darkness :D

That said, I dont think its a viable tactic. Your wasting too many points for not enough gain iMO. Holding up a unit for two rounds of combat (which is only one of your opponents turns) isnt worth the 65 points you spend on 5 BG. Take harpies and flee from charges, that will take a unit out of the game for a turn and your harpies have a chance to live.

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Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:42 pm
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Surely if he refuses the challenge then combat just occurs as normal? It's not clear to me from the BRB that the champion must be targeted if he's in the front rank - it seems as though your opponent has the choice of either directing his attacks against the champion specifically, or against the unit generally... I could be wrong on that front though.

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:43 am
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Do the challengers not move to the side to fight the challenge allowing others to rank up and fight as normal? this would at least negate this stupid tactic.


Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:16 pm
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The challenged model moves into base contact with challenger if possible, as long as it doesn't change the arc they are fighting in (this was FAQ'd to stop the teleporting dragon nonsense), challenge participants leaving units hasn't been in the game for several years now.

It is a viable tactic in some situations, but it's not common at all. It's one of those things that looks awesome in theory but rarely comes up, and pretty often can backfire on someone if they don't know what they're doing.

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:52 pm
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If you see a conga line with a champ in front, shoot the unit? It is easy free VP.

If you did the black guard unit with the champ having armor of darkness then I am sure it will get someone angry and possibly hold up the unit for longer than 1 or 2 turns unless they hit a character.

I would advise to not use this tactic as its very easy to focus small units of archers to get rid of it.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:47 am
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Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:
That said, I dont think its a viable tactic. Your wasting too many points for not enough gain iMO. Holding up a unit for two rounds of combat (which is only one of your opponents turns) isnt worth the 65 points you spend on 5 BG. Take harpies and flee from charges, that will take a unit out of the game for a turn and your harpies have a chance to live.


If you flee a charge, then your opponent can potentially redirect and hit a valuable unit. I generally just let the Harpies hold against the charge and watch them die. If you align the charge properly, the enemy either has to overrun in the wrong direction (away from your troops, maybe presenting a flank/rear charge) or the opponent has to reform to face you. Either way, he's lost a turn.


Mod's note: see below
As for stuff like this being "dickish" or whatnot...

People cry too much. This isn't a hard tactic to counter, for any army. Removing 5 T3 models? If an army can't find a way to take out 5 Witch Elves before combat starts, then that also means they can't handle 5 hounds, 5 Harpies, a Great Eagle, or any other basic redirector, which essentially means they've lost against any halfway decent player anyway.

Far, far too much whining.


Mod's note:

I removed the two one-line posts Tethlis is referring at, which were solely mentioning how irritating this tactics was. It may be true, however it is not "tactical".

Calisson.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:42 am
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My combat units don't have champions, because retarded things like this tactic have been around for ever. The only unit of mine that might have a champion would be my sorceress bunker. Good luck getting near that with unit of 5 models smaller than treekin.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:11 am
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Tethlis wrote:

People cry too much. This isn't a hard tactic to counter, for any army. Removing 5 T3 models? If an army can't find a way to take out 5 Witch Elves before combat starts, then that also means they can't handle 5 hounds, 5 Harpies, a Great Eagle, or any other basic redirector, which essentially means they've lost against any halfway decent player anyway.

Far, far too much whining.
... :D Nothing to do with counters to the unit. It's all about the plausibility of the manouver in a game of ranked units. Exploiting the fact that GWs rules don't allow a hundred enemies to lap around your single model wide unit is just... well, I've used the word already. No need to go on about it.

At the end of the day, you just don't need to resort to gamesmanship like this to compete in the game. I know not everyone can resist using exploits like this in the game, but I, for one, will certainly put pressure on any other players not to go down that road.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:13 am
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Mod's note @ Sulla
We're discussing tactics in this forum.

The advice to put pressure on people not to use a perfectly legal tactic is not going to help Kaleth Stinson to solve his problem during a tournament.

Your comment about plausibility has nothing to do with tactics. Please, stick to the spirit of the forum.
Thank you.

Calisson.



@ Kaleth Stinson
The conga line is legal.
BRB p.92 even mentions specifically that there may not be enough room in the first rank for the full command: proof that less than 3 wide model units ARE perfectly in the spirit of the game.
Some people don't like it and put pressure on their gaming community to avoid this possibility. If they want that as a house rule, fine with them. But that will be only a house rule, not a valid tactics.

How does it work?
The conga line is made of the champion and 4 rank & file. The champion must stay in the front, the 4 R&F behind him. A muso could be added for greater mobility (reform AND move). However, the more you add, the more expansive the sacrificial unit is.

The tactical use is to march in front of the opponent's über-unit so as to delay it for one or two turns.
If the opponent doesn't charge: you earned the time you wanted.

If the opponent charges:
The only conga model in contact is the champion.
The models that may participate to the combat are the conga champion and the model behind, versus the 6 opposing models in contact or behind (or only 4 for larger models).

If there is no challenge:
The 6 opponents have to choose (BRB p.93): either to aim at the champion or to aim at the unit (the champion IS part of the unit). All hits aimed specifically at the champion may only kill him, any leftover will be wasted. All hits made generally at the unit may kill only R&F untill no R&F is left, then the leftover wounds will kill the champion.
Conclusion: if there is no challenge, the opposing unit will just choose not to aim at the champion and may kill the whole unit.

If there is a challenge:
The champion and his challenger may not be attacked by any other model.
And the wounds made to the champion do not transfer to the other conga line models.

What happens with the other 5 foes when there is a challenge?
See BRB p.48, a model may hit only a model in contact, or, if it is in the second rank, it may hit a model in contact with the model in front of it.
Therefore, all 6 models may hit only the model of the champion.
However, the champion is in a challenge and can be hit only by the challenger.
The common acceptance is that the other 5 models have to wait until the champion is dead before they can hit anything.
Note that the reverse is not true: the model behind the champion may fight with 1 attack, although not against the challenger.
Note also that rule lawyers may argue that the said 5 models are not forced to allocate their attacks to the champion (p.93, they "may, if they wish") so they could just attack the unit generally speaking. But this requires some interpretation and is not widely accepted.

Result of the combat:
The champion is likely slain, but the R&F are intact.
As the unit is usually chosen among stubborn or unbreakable troops, it does not matter if they lost tremendously the fight.
The remaining 4 of the conga line usually remain to be fought another round.
The über-unit cannot pursue and is delayed, leaving the player with the conga line one turn to reposition his other troops, either to multi-charge the über-unit or to run away from it.

Predicted behaviour:
The conga champion should always try to go into a challenge, in order to preserve the conga R&F.
The opposing unit should always consider to avoid the challenge.
Anyway, challenge or not, it is never guaranteed that the whole conga line would be wiped out in a single round.

Conga lines without champions.
In reality, conga lines with only R&F are effective too, if only because they can be hit by only 6 models. Unless these 6 models have many attacks, the likelihood of killing all 5 from the conga line is not that high, and a single remaining R&F may stubbornly stay for another round.
Just to say that a redirecting unit of harpies is annoying, a redirecting conga line of harpies is even more annoying, and much worse is a redirecting conga line unit of 5 WE if the COB BSB is nearby!


How to counter this tactics?

One possibility is to have a higher I challenger, who would kill the champion, then the 5 other models would be in contact with the remaining conga line R&F.

Another possibility is to refuse the challenge. Sure, one character would be pushed away from the combat, but there would be 6 models in fight with the whole conga line.

The best is to shoot it or magic missile it before it happens.
That requires to devote an unreasonable amount of shooting, because you want ALL the models to vanish, so there will be probably an overkill.
Why do you need all of them to be killed? Not for the negligible VPs, but just because a single model is still enough to redirect a charge!

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Last edited by Calisson on Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:46 am
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Calisson wrote:
The advice to put pressure on people not to use a perfectly legal tactic is not going to help Kaleth Stinson to solve his problem during a tournament.


Kaleth Stinson wrote:
I know it is as dirty as you can get, but if others use it, I want to fight fire with fire.


Sorry, but I may be confused - isn't Kaleth Stinson suggesting in his original post that he is also considering using the tactic himself (fighting fire with fire suggests using the same tactic to counter others using the tactic)? If so, I think it's at least somewhat legitimate to indicate that it provides a good example of WAAC gameplay that can be fairly discouraged? He does indeed change his tune by his third post and suggest that he is now not thinking about using it, but this change seems to be in direct response to Flash29's comment about it being a tactic that goes against the spirit of the game (a change which represents a good thing).

It's also the case that people other than the OP will read and benefit from the thread, and some of them won't be thinking purely about tournament play. Yes, in a tournament it wouldn't help to tell an opponent who uses it that he shouldn't do so, but in friendly play it probably is a fair comment for someone to make.

I think in a tactics forum it is a good idea for people to be able to comment on any aspect of a tactic, including its effectiveness, sportingness/fun level and real life plausibility. Otherwise we miss important parts of the story.

Sorry, not trying to be difficult, but I do respectfully disagree that discussions on tactics should be limited to purely how well they work.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:08 am
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Better question is...


Why

bother?

Is it legal? Yes
Is it in the spirit of the game? No
Is it bound to be popular and accepted? No
Is it viable? No
Does DE have other good options and a good/strong AB aside from this? Yes

I will never use this tactic. Ever. Even if it means I will lose a tournament. If it comes to a point where I would need to use such "tactics" I will probably rethink if I should be even playing Dark Elves or table top gamess at all. Just my opinion.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:50 am
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Red... wrote:
I do respectfully disagree that discussions on tactics should be limited to purely how well they work.
You're right. The forum is made for you readers, not for the mods. :oops:
So discuss fairness of tactics if you wish.


Now, remember to be tolerant: the so called spirit of the game is defined in the BRB p.3, but there are many interpretations.

Nowhere is it indicated by GW that unrealistic formations are against the spirit of the game, contrary to what Ichiyo1821 says (anyway, who could reasonably argue about realism in a fantasy game with magic and monsters? :lol: ). That is a widely spread consideration but it cannot claim to be universal (nonetheless, I agree with all the other sentences written above by Ichiyo1821).
In the same way, the "unkillable lord" is nothing more realistic, and I don't consider him more fair than the conga line - just more effective.

Also, some gaming groups do consider WAAC to be fun and fair game.
Accept that they exist and that they are entitled to discuss tactics without being yelled at by other D.netters.

Calisson

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:58 am
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Agreed with Calisson regarding the subjective interpretation of "Spirit of the Game". I don't use the conga line, I don't think very highly of it, and I don't think very highly of players who do use it. However, it's their army list, their box of toy soldiers, and if they're not breaking the rules, then I'm not going to complain if they choose to use it as a strategy.

My focus when I play a game of Warhammer isn't to pass moral judgment on every little aspect of my opponent's list, or to comment on the strategies they use. If they want to pay 60+ points for a unit that uses strange little marginally effective tactics, so be it. I have players who tell me that Harpy blocking isn't in the spirit of the game, and that the Sacrificial Dagger isn't in the spirit of the game, and that Crown of Command isn't in the spirit of the game, but that doesn't seem to slow down most players on this forum from using any of those methods.

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Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:29 pm
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if one would use a congaline then i would dare say your best bang for buck is black guard, 5 vanilla black guard, with their heigher basic ld , immune to psycology without frenzy,I6, but most importantly, ws 5 and heavy armour theres a good chance, 3 models and 3 support attacks won't kill all 5 models, normally, you would already be hitting on 4's without re-rolls, lets say at strenth 4,

you would need 18 attacks meaning 5 attacks per model (sinse the support one does one or 4 if your facing a horde.

Now this is of course very simply put but the fact is that for 65 points , you could hold up a horde or even make it fold in (reforming in non horde format to pass by your 5 black guard) or make it present its flank. (if it charge a unit thats in its way but slanted enough. fact is against some army's it doesn't work.

Ogres,
other dark elves
wood elves
skaven

are a few army's which i doubt would have any problems overcoming this tactic, and most armys will have something apropriate for this kinda small nuasance.


Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:02 pm
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It's a tactic that doesn't work against any army with a modest amount of shooting as well as any general with half a brain.

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Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:37 am
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Calisson wrote:

If there is no challenge:
The 6 opponents have to choose (BRB p.93): either to aim at the champion or to aim at the unit (the champion IS part of the unit).


May I just ask You for some reference for this part? I was quite surprised that You may allocate attacks to unit with models in contact with champion only (conga line or not). The general consesnus is enough for me, if there is no other reference, I just want to be sure. Thanks in advance.


Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:26 am
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This comes from the fact that the champion is a member of his unit, contrary to characters. You may select to aim at him, but you may select to fight the whole unit, from which he is a part, therefore in contact you are with.

The reference is in the Big Rulebook, p.93, "Champion & Close Combat":
Enemy models in base contact can direct attacks against the champion if they wish. (...) wounds inflicted on the unit can overflow onto the champion.

That is different for characters BRB p. 99, "Close Combat":
Enemy models in base contact with both the character and one or more models from the character's unit can choose to attack the character or the unit, or split. (...) excess wounds are lost.

The mechanism is simple:
your unit is in contact with the champion, therefore it is in contact with the unit.
You have tthe choice to aim your attacks at the champion (you are in contact with him), or at the whole unit (you are in contact with it because the champion is part of it - but in that case, the champion will be the last to die).

As far as I understand, this is one of the important difference between a champion and a character.

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:38 pm
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Calisson wrote:
This comes from the fact that the champion is a member of his unit, contrary to characters. You may select to aim at him, but you may select to fight the whole unit, from which he is a part, therefore in contact you are with.

The reference is in the Big Rulebook, p.93, "Champion & Close Combat":
Enemy models in base contact can direct attacks against the champion if they wish. (...) wounds inflicted on the unit can overflow onto the champion.

That is different for characters BRB p. 99, "Close Combat":
Enemy models in base contact with both the character and one or more models from the character's unit can choose to attack the character or the unit, or split. (...) excess wounds are lost.

The mechanism is simple:
your unit is in contact with the champion, therefore it is in contact with the unit.
You have tthe choice to aim your attacks at the champion (you are in contact with him), or at the whole unit (you are in contact with it because the champion is part of it - but in that case, the champion will be the last to die).

As far as I understand, this is one of the important difference between a champion and a character.


Ahh, thanks a lot, I think I see the difference. I was stuck by page 48 refering only to models. And I tough that because you are in contact with just one precise model (the champion), you may adress your attacks just to him.


Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:12 am
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this is an extremely lame tactic, and definately not in the spirit of the game. 7th edition had a rule where you had to maximize contact because people in 6th were doing the similiar stupid shiz ("clipping" was very popular where you minimized contact to avoid hits back).. i'm guessing there is no rule for this in 8th, which is very lame


Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:18 am
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Why would it be a lame tactic? This tactic just uses the rules as they are. Have you never seen people use units of 5 empire flaggelants just to hold up an unit for a turn? If not so, what do you think of a Lord with the Crown of Command? That's just about the same!
A lot of people around here invest about 200 points in an unkillable lord which is meant to hold up any unit the enemy has, after which people consider a unit of 60 points (5 WE + champ) to be 'against the rules' and cheesy. What the hell?

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Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:21 pm
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there are plenty of ways to deal with an "unkillable lord"
and i don't see any problem with using stubborn/unbreakable units to hold units for a turn... it makes sence for bold warriors to sacrafice themselves, but keep in mind the opposition unit can then overrun!

the problem is the "conga line"- using them in a frontage of 1, and then challenging to avoid any contact. it's in the spirit of the game to maximize frontage so you can't "clip units" not only to avoid fighting, but to "pin" the enemy in place for 2 turns so they can be hit by a flank/rear attack


Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:03 pm
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