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I found a home 
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Slave on the Altar
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:36 am
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I found a home, I would first like to say your site is by far the best Dark Elf site on the internet. I looked through the post and I could not find anything post on using Crone Hellebron as a general, is she not a good choice? We play 2500 point games and in the 9 games I have played with her she, for lack of a better word she is a "Beast". But I'm sad to say that I'm 0/9 with the DE (games have been against the new Ogres save one, I went up against the Skaven). Not because she fails at her job it seems like the rest of my army does. I can't seem to find a good combination. It seems like no matter what I do the game starts with a bang and ends in a whimper. The list I'm using now is as follows:
Hellebron- General
SS level 4 w/ channeling staff (shadow magic)
S level 2 with dispel scroll (dark magic)
Master (BSB) ASF for the banner (to be deployed with executioners)
29 Corsairs (frenzied with extra hand weapon) full command
26 Corsairs (No banner) full command extra hand weapon
20 Black Guard Full command (Razor standard ), Tower master Berserker sword and charmed shield
20 Executioners (full command) Banner of murder
5 Shades with blood shade (war machine hunters)
1 Assassin with Venom sword (Character/mage killer)
On paper to me the list looks good, but on the table I'm hurting. Talking with friends I was told that you need to excel in 2 phases of the game I chose Magic and combat, I'm I wrong in my choices? I have tried shooting but it seems like shooting is something ill never be good at. :!:

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Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:49 am
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Dragon Lord
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Hellebron is a bad general because Special Characters are by default overpriced.
If you can get her in combat she will slaughter hordes... and then die from those 9 return attacks from spear armed clanrats.

You're also clearly not utilizing Hellebron's main strength - fielding witch elves as Core. Witch Elves make mince of both Skaven and Ogres, you just need to accept that they will die a lot too.

As for excelling in two phases of the game to be a good army. Yes, as long as one of those phases is Movement.

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Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:21 am
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Highborn
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Hey

If u wanna use Hellbron, u should field WE as core. Back up the unit with +5 ward from COB. Hydra is always nice, and so is 2x5 Harpies

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Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:43 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Dreadlord clark wrote:
SS level 4 w/ channeling staff (shadow magic)
S level 2 with dispel scroll (dark magic)
Master (BSB) ASF for the banner (to be deployed with executioners)
29 Corsairs (frenzied with extra hand weapon) full command
26 Corsairs (No banner) full command extra hand weapon
20 Black Guard Full command (Razor standard ), Tower master Berserker sword and charmed shield
20 Executioners (full command) Banner of murder
5 Shades with blood shade (war machine hunters)
1 Assassin with Venom sword (Character/mage killer)


There are a few things here that leap out.

-First, the channeling staff isn't really required. If you're going to go magic-heavy, then first and foremost, you need more Power Dice. The Sacrificial Dagger or even the plain Darkstar Cloak is a great way to achieve this.

-Second, Hellebron is indeeed just too fragile. If you're going to use her, you need her at the corner of 10-wide Witch Elf hordes (or even wider.) This means that she will be corner-to-corner with most enemy formations, letting her attack with full effect without having too many enemies in base contact to retaliate. Her unit should also be supported by the Cauldron of Blood; being able micro manage survivability (in the form of the Ward Save) versus killing power (+1 Attack) is key.

-The master in Executioners is, unfortunately, illegal. Only Khainite characters can join Khainite units, which means a Death Hag is your only choice. Once again, very fragile, so you may want to forgo this option entirely.

-Corsairs are good, but consider Banner of Murder on one of these units to get more killing power for them. Strength 3 just doesn't cut it in many situations. You might also consider repeater crossbowmen or spearmen as well. Crossbowmen are key for softening up enemy monsters, infantry, or redirectors; all of these are major threats to your army. Spearmen are a viable choice also, especially if you want to carve them up with the Sacrificial Dagger for Power Dice.

-Why the elaborate gear on the Black Guard champion? If you buy anything, then Whip of Agony or Crimson Death are good ways to go. Also consider Armor of Darkness to make him hard to kill; quite useful if the enemy allocates attacks against him, only to realize he's quite tough to kill!

-The Assassin is pricey, especially since you already have a lot of other pricey characters. If he works for you, then fine, but I would try to drop some of your other characters to make room for more units. It's the rank-and-file troops who will do most of your killing, as well as specialized elites like the Hydra and Cold One Knights.

Overall, you have some good elements here. If I were to include one more unit on top of what you already have, it would definitely be Harpies. They're crucial for redirecting opponents, delaying them, and helping us to line up the key combats that allow Dark Elves to function. If you're unsure on what I mean, hunt around the forums a bit for threads that discuss Harpies. They're possibly the most useful unit in our army.

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Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:38 am
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Dark Elves are one of the most powerful armies in the game, but also one of the hardest to learn to play with effectively...

My advice to you would be to start focusing less on your army list itself and more on the tactics you use. It's not so much that you need to excel in two phases in the game, but that you need to be learning how to apply force where you want and avoid combat where you don't want, how to use hammers and anvils, and how to choose which flanks to win on and which flanks to avoid/hold your opponent up on.

The composition of your list suggests that you try to win across the board - all of your units are decent, but none are killers. Personally I tend to try to field one or two hammer units, and then one or two anvil units. Hammer units are powerful units that can simply cut apart anything they come into contact with, anvil units are one that can hold the enemy up indefinitely.

So, for example:

Hammer: 36 Executioners, in a horde formation, led by a Death Hag Battle Standard Bearer with standard of Hag Graef (confers ASF).
Hammer: 12 Cold One Knights in two ranks of 6, with standard of discipline.

Anvil: 50 Warriors in 10 ranks of 5.
Anvil: 40 Crossbowmen in 5 ranks of 8.

A typical deployment, for me, would look as follows:

DDD.CCCC.T.T.EEEEEEEE..WWW......RRRR.......DDD.....
DDD.CCCC.T.T.EEEEEEEE..WWW......RRRR.......DDD.....
.......................EEEEEEEE..WWW...............................
..........................EEEE.......WWW..............................
.......................................WWW..............................
.......................................WWW..............................
.......................................WWW..............................

(D = Dark Riders, C = CoKs, T = Chariots, W = Warriors, R = RxBs, E = Horde unit of Executioners)

A typical game with this deployment, for me, would involve me refusing the right flank (either by harrassing the enemy with dark riders or by doubling them back behind my lines), moving my anvils slowly up in the middle of the board and then hitting very very hard on the left centre/left flank. That way I smash through whatever opposition is on the left and hold whatever forces are facing me in the middle. (note: I have not included harpies, cauldron of blood, shades, etc here, as that would complicate things unnecessarily)

This is all based on an actual game I played the other day by the way - my opponent had done exactly the same thing that I think you may do: spread his army across the board and not really concentrated his forces at any one point. My left flank forces took out his chariots, artillery and lighter flanking forces, while my executioners chewed through a unit of 25 black orcs led by grimgor ironhide, and then wheeled right to plough into the side of his army (first a unit of 50 orcs, then 25 big guns, then 20 black orcs). I was able to smash through each one because he was too evenly spread. His unit of goblins out on the far flank never made it into the game, because I chose not to engage them.

That won't always work, but I think it's tactical and strategic thinking in deployment and during the game that you need to look at as well as just your army list... In fact, in many ways it is better to decide an overall strategy for your army, and then build a list to carry that out, than build a list and then decide on a strategy later.

P.S. Shooting is not a game winner for Dark Elves. Never has been, never will. It can be a useful tool for dealing with enemy fast cavalry and scouts etc, or trimming down elite enemy units, but it is often best - imo anyway - to take minimal amounts so that you can concentrate on winning in melee (which Dark Elves can excel at when used right) and magic (although many of our best magic options are best used to support our melee, so it's often the melee phase in the game that you NEED to get right...).

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Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:56 am
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Slave on the Altar
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:36 am
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I would like to thank you all for your input on my DE list. I made the changes we talked about, and I'm looking forward to trying them out tomorrow 10/28/11 (it's my game groups game day). So far I will be facing the new Chas Dwarf's and High Elves and maybe Tomb Kings, do y'all have any suggestions for me facing those army's? I don't know what the generals will be putting in there list, I'm just asking for basic things to watch out for or to do.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:53 pm
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Highborn
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If u look under tactics, u should find most of ur answers there ;)

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Skills: Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting
Equipment: 2xfine scimitars, dagger
Inventory: Gold 30, Crowns 40, 1 Red ruby


Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:04 pm
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