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Corsairs 
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:52 am
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I have a few questions about corsairs

1)can you give a pair of hand bows to the unit as a whole rather than just the reaver

2) i noticed they only have 1 attack but they have 2 hand weapons do we just add the extra attack our selves or do they only get the one attack

Build the battalion and wondering how i should build there guys might just do half and half and put the ones im using In the front ranks[/img]


Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:02 am
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Dragon Lord
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1) No, regular corsairs can only have a single handbow each.

2) Attacks from equipment are not usually placed in statline. They have 1 attack + 1 more from additional hand weapons (and possibly + 1 more from frenzy if you give them Sea Serpent Standard)

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Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:38 am
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Quote:
Build the battalion and wondering how i should build there guys might just do half and half and put the ones im using In the front ranks


Yup, that's the norm for most people using them.

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Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:32 am
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Cold One Knight

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Cyanide wrote:
1)can you give a pair of hand bows to the unit as a whole rather than just the reaver



This question has already been answered, but I'll answer your unasked question. If you do use RHB Corsairs, the best way to use them is:

1) March them to within 8" of the enemy.
2) Shoot.
3) Stand & Shoot as a charge reaction or continuing shooting.
4) If the enemy is weak in CC, charge after 2).

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Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:19 am
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Archon_Matt wrote:

If you do use RHB Corsairs, the best way to use them is:

1) March them to within 8" of the enemy.
2) Shoot.
3) Stand & Shoot as a charge reaction or continuing shooting.
4) If the enemy is weak in CC, charge after 2).


Actually , You can't march and shoot with RHB corsairs, you can only move, so for it to work you need to be 13" away and move 5 just to be able to shoot, but giving them RHB, means that you only get 1 attack in CC, so 1 attack with 5+ AS and very short range makes them worse that Crossbows with shields, cause crossbows get a 6+ parry save on top of their 5+ AS. so if you decided to give them the Sea Serpent Standard, for the extra attack you, might not even get to shoot, because at 17" from enemies you start taking leadership tests to hold, and if you fail to hold, and you end up with a failed charge, you can't shoot. And even if you did shoot, it's still only S3 and it's not even Armour Piercing like repeater crossbows are. and even if you chose to give them the Armour Piercing banner, It only applies to CC attacks.


If I was you I would kit out Corsairs with an extra hand weapon and the Sea Serpent Standard, and I would get Crossbows as a dedicated shooting unit.

I would also like to add that , Today a unit of 18 AHW SSS Corsairs helped to destroy a unit of White Lions, then they took a charge in the back from some archers, Destroyed them , and then charged in to another archers and killed 10 men in a single round of combat. IMHO Corsairs with RHB's are for when you are more experienced with dark elves, and want to try things with friends.

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Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:54 am
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You get (depending on your frontage) 2 attacks from each corsair in first two ranks (4 from champion) without risking not reaching the charge (13" isn't guaranteed charge) TWICE.
And then get to fight in combat (with their standard attacks if you gave them SSS).

That far outstrips just fighting in close combat unless they're permanently buffed with Mindrazor.

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Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:12 pm
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Mine weren't buffed with Mindrazor, only +1 attack from CoB.
I mean, sure you could Take the SSS with handbows, and keep your General and the BSB nearby, maybe in a larger points game it wouldn't hurt to have RHB's if you have other combat units. but even if you stood and shot you would still be hitting on 6's if you chose to multishot.

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Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:38 pm
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Cold One Knight

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Dirty Mac wrote:

Actually , You can't march and shoot with RHB corsairs, you can only move,


We've had this discussion before, Mac :P I mean march, then move, and shoot, or move and shoot.

Dalamar is correct. Firstly, you get no multi-shot penalty with RhBs - they're quick to fire. Secondly, remember that, if you deploy them as a horde, you're going to get 2x20=40 shots after moving at a 3+ to hit, and when they charge, you get 40 shots at a 4+ to hit. That's 80 shots, of which 47 or so will hit, and if your enemy is T3 or T4, you'll get between 15 and 23 wounds. Depending on your enemy's armour, that's 7 to 19 kills, and a Panic test in the first round.

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Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:02 pm
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I found there to be a few big issues with handbow Corsairs when I trialled them. The first thing to address however is that nowhere in the rules does it imply handbows do not suffer the multiple shot penalty, so at best you will hitting on 4s, or 5s if being charged.

The first is that in order for them to be worthwhile, you need to have the unit in just 2 ranks, which makes it very wide and so easier to be chateau by multiple enemy units, but only able to stand and shoot against one of them- an if you don't declare the stand and shoot against the first unit, the second likely won't bother charging in.

Secondly, you'll only really get 1 round of effective shooting with them before you starting hitting on 5s and for that round of 4s to count, you have to get te second rank in range. When the handbow Coraairs really come into their own is when you can get The Withering off on the enemy unit- you get to shoot it at tue reduced toughness, and then stand and shoot at the reduced toughness. However, the problem I good with this was that if the second range is able to get into range then it was either because my opponent was dumb and walked into 13", or I'd do better by just charging in and using the magic phase to power through Mindrazor.

They're not a bad choice, and I found them to be fairly effective at Cardiff Carnage where I geared my list to fight daemons and dark elves because they were the strongest armies under the comp. They didn't really do anything that additional hand weapons wouldn't have done however.

They also rely a bit on your opponent playing badly- either walking into 13" of the second rank (of course a failed charge is what you're really hoping for) or more likely, running at you with low toughness low armour troops. If they don't allow you to get 2 easy volleys off, and don't run towards horrible match-ups, then the handbows lose a lot of their effectiveness, whereas the extra hand weapons will always be good and also play more to the strengths of the army- there are already plenty of shots going out, and high initiative and re-rolls are amazing in an edition where combat is whee games are won or lost big.

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Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:50 pm
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Also if you didn't take shadow magic for mindrazor, the cauldron can give them Killing blow, 29 killing blow attacks, for the first round of combat, and probably the 2nd round too, needs no more explanation.

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Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:02 am
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Cold One Knight

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What you're not taking into account is that the RHB unit still gets 24 KB attacks in combat when using the CoB, which is only 5 less than your AHW Corsairs. What we're talking about here is trading between 5 and 10 attacks (depending on width of file) for between 40 and 80 shots and a great degree of versatility.

richards is correct on the Multiple Shots - touche. So, to sum up:

1) Deploy RHB Corsairs 24" away from enemy.
2) Move up 10", leaving you 14" away from the enemy. If your enemy got first turn and moved up, skip to Step 3.
3) Move forward 5", fire at enemy. 80 shots, 4+ to hit: 40 hits. Against T3: 20 wounds. At an armour save of 4+/5+/6+: 10/13/17 kills. If the enemy charges, you get the same number of shots at 4+ to hit *and then* you get your attacks. That's 20/26/34 kills before the enemy even touches your unit, and this is on 2nd/3rd turn.

You're also forgetting the endgame uses of RHB Corsairs. If there are fleeing enemies that are a bit out of charge range (13" or so), RHBs are guaranteed kills. If there's an enemy that will flee from the charge and make you fail your charge, RHBs are guaranteed kills. If there is an enemy hammer running around, you can dance around it with RHB Corsairs and whittle it down to either blunt its hitting power or make it weak enough to kill.

Compare these numbers to what those extra 5-10 attacks would have gotten you. The two opponents are Elves, at similar WS but T3, and Orcs, at lower WS but higher T.

5/7/10 Corsairs in front rank
All numbers are fairly approximate.
Hits: 3.75-4/4.75-6/7.5-9
Wounds: 2-1/2-2/4-3

So you're adding between 1 and 4 wounds, approximately, with those 5 extra attacks from that AHW. Add in Mindrazor or KB, and those wounds will go up, but even with flawless dice rolls you're only going to get an extra 5-10 kills with those attacks. 20 RHB Corsairs firing one volley will average 10 kills on a unit with Full Plate Armour, which is as good as a horde of perfect dice rolls from those AHW Corsairs.

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Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:59 am
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I just want to clarify a few things here.


1) Deploy RHB Corsairs 24" away from enemy.
2) Move up 10", leaving you 14" away from the enemy. If your enemy got first turn and moved up, skip to Step 3.
3) Move forward 5", fire at enemy. 80 shots, 4+ to hit: 40 hits. Against T3: 20 wounds. At an armour save of 4+/5+/6+: 10/13/17 kills. If the enemy charges, you get the same number of shots at 4+ to hit *and then* you get your attacks. That's 20/26/34 kills before the enemy even touches your unit, and this is on 2nd/3rd turn.


with step 2 , if the opponent didn't move, 14" is still too far away. moving 5" still puts you at 9" away. Long range and multi still means hitting on 5's , and stand and shoot would be hitting on 6's.

Not discounting your research, but how do you get 80 shots?
Also have you tried this before? have you seen it work first hand?, I assume you have to have a 40 corsair horde unit for this to work? would it only work at higher point games, once you have enough combat units on the field, would this corsair unit be put on the flanks? or smack in the middle?

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Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:29 am
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Slave on the Altar

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Thanks guys alot of help


Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:33 am
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Cold One Knight

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Oops, double post.

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Equipment: Heavy Armour, Helmet, Draich, Dagger (Combat).
Skills: Basic Heal
Age: 113


Last edited by Archon_matt on Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:00 pm
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Cold One Knight

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Dirty Mac wrote:
with step 2 , if the opponent didn't move, 14" is still too far away. moving 5" still puts you at 9" away. Long range and multi still means hitting on 5's , and stand and shoot would be hitting on 6's.


I'm assuming your opponent moves up a little as well. If he stands still, then keep advancing.

"Repeater handbows do not suffer the usual to hit penalties for shooting and long range or for moving and shooting."

If the enemy charges, you're at 5+ - touche.

Dirty Mac wrote:
Not discounting your research, but how do you get 80 shots?


Through not thinking before I wrote :P So halve the numbers.

Dirty Mac wrote:
Also have you tried this before? have you seen it work first hand?, I assume you have to have a 40 corsair horde unit for this to work? would it only work at higher point games, once you have enough combat units on the field, would this corsair unit be put on the flanks? or smack in the middle?


Yes, I have tried it before. I use a 20-man Corsair unit deployed in 10x2 (horde) formation with RHBs and SSS. I use them as utility troops throughout the battle to support my main assault, which is carried out by my hammer units. In my last game, against Dwarves, they knocked out most of a unit of thunderers with shooting, killed a cannon with shooting, charged the thunderers and pursued them off the board, then, in the dying stages of the game, whittled down a unit of Warriors to allow me to hold them with my Warriors before rear-charging a near-dead deathstar and winning the game for me. In that entire game, the unit of Corsairs took 4 casualties (40 points) and must have dealt over at least a few hundred points in damage, with a fair amount of that damage coming from shooting.

The point is that RHB Corsairs are just really, really useful in many ways, and I don't think it's wise to trade all that utility for 5-10 attacks.

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Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:01 pm
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I might keep it in mind, for later. good to know there has been some testing of this unit.

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Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:06 pm
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Very interesting topic. I use a unit of 10 handbow corsairs in my games, who work alongside my shades on the flanks. I am afraid I have yet to properly experiment with larger units of corsairs, so cannot add much to the debate.

Quote:
The point is that RHB Corsairs are just really, really useful in many ways, and I don't think it's wise to trade all that utility for 5-10 attacks.


I think this sums it up nicely. AHW are far more straight forward, and there is something to be said about that, but what you can do with handbows outshines that simplicity.

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Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:47 pm
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It sounds like a number of people have come up with good strategies for using both AHW Corsairs and RHB Corsairs.

However, they both suffer from the same basic flaw: S3 with no AP. That makes them awful against certain types of enemy (unless you buff them, but that's true for any unit, and off topic). Worth bearing that in mind ;)

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Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:58 pm
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What I do is give them KB from the CoB. run them in a 7*4 with pendant lord on foot, to maximize KB, generally so my corsair's don't flee, if they lose combat. Guarantees me KB on opposing characters.

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Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:24 pm
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Correct me if I'm wrong but Frenzied units cannot Stand and Shoot, can they? My book is to far away to check...

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Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:23 pm
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They cannot choose to flee, I thinly that's the only restriction :)

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Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:02 pm
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Red... wrote:
However, they both suffer from the same basic flaw: S3 with no AP. That makes them awful against certain types of enemy (unless you buff them, but that's true for any unit, and off topic). Worth bearing that in mind ;)


That's the one downside :'(

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Equipment: Heavy Armour, Helmet, Draich, Dagger (Combat).
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Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:06 am
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S3 with no AP? umm, yea, so no different from a regular Corsair attack.

And when you start adding Mindrazors and Cauldron buffs, you also need to take into consideration spells that make the enemy more susceptible to missile fire.

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Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:47 am
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Exactly like Dalamar mentioned with mindrazor the unit suddenly shines.

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Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:59 am
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As with most units ;)

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Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:29 pm
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