Completely random idea with Corsairs
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- Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
- Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Completely random idea with Corsairs
I'm sure someone came up with this before me. But my next game I'm planning to use this:
10 Corsairs with Handbows
Reaver with a pair of handbows
and have two units like that.
Their job? Deploy in the deep flanks, race up the enemy sides and harass the hell out of them.
Sounds familiar? Sounds like something your dark riders usually do? Yep!
Here's why I'm planning to use Corsairs.
A unit of 10 like this is 113 points, that's less than smallest unit of Dark Riders with crossbows.
That's also twice as many wounds.
As well as 4+ AS against shooting attacks
And a rank (though that's probably not going to stay there for long, who knows though)
On top of that, 22 shots instead of 10, more accurate, but shorter range, but keep in mind, once they're in position, they shouldn't have issues with the range.
Why 10 and not, say 12? Because I want to keep the frontage narrow, that way they can get around enemy units easier. It's not the first time I managed to march my elves 10" next to an enemy unit avoiding them entirely.
And when they join in a fight to help out? That's still 11 attacks (if they're all alive) and the surprisingly good rule in an environment where you need to destroy entire units - slowing fleeing units down!
I'll write some notes on their effectiveness after a game... probably Wednesday.
10 Corsairs with Handbows
Reaver with a pair of handbows
and have two units like that.
Their job? Deploy in the deep flanks, race up the enemy sides and harass the hell out of them.
Sounds familiar? Sounds like something your dark riders usually do? Yep!
Here's why I'm planning to use Corsairs.
A unit of 10 like this is 113 points, that's less than smallest unit of Dark Riders with crossbows.
That's also twice as many wounds.
As well as 4+ AS against shooting attacks
And a rank (though that's probably not going to stay there for long, who knows though)
On top of that, 22 shots instead of 10, more accurate, but shorter range, but keep in mind, once they're in position, they shouldn't have issues with the range.
Why 10 and not, say 12? Because I want to keep the frontage narrow, that way they can get around enemy units easier. It's not the first time I managed to march my elves 10" next to an enemy unit avoiding them entirely.
And when they join in a fight to help out? That's still 11 attacks (if they're all alive) and the surprisingly good rule in an environment where you need to destroy entire units - slowing fleeing units down!
I'll write some notes on their effectiveness after a game... probably Wednesday.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Please do, Because I am thinking about the same thing but with a unit of 21. I am getting smoked by He at the moment, and My corsairs don't last long, and they are also getting march blocked by eagles. Having extra shooting might be good for a stand and shoot. and getting those pesky eagles out of the way.
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- Cold One Knight
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:16 am
- Location: Sydney
21 is a bit of an odd number. If you're going 3x7, then you won't get all your shots and you might find it hard to manoeuvre. 5x2+1 would just be an extra, pointless Corsair, IMO.
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8th Edition
W/L/D
10/2/0
Sirenis Helbane (Group 35)
WS:4 S:4 T:2 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Heavy Armour, Helmet, Draich, Dagger (Combat).
Skills: Basic Heal
Age: 113
8th Edition
W/L/D
10/2/0
Sirenis Helbane (Group 35)
WS:4 S:4 T:2 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Heavy Armour, Helmet, Draich, Dagger (Combat).
Skills: Basic Heal
Age: 113
You need the musician: if your target is not in your front ark of vision, you need the muso for rearranging and shoot.
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- Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
- Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Yes, there's a musician there, I just missed to write it down.
And 21? their use becomes completely different. These aren't combat units, they are harassment units!
21 can end up being too wide and/or too deep to evade an enemy unit and you would have to resort to fighting.
And 21? their use becomes completely different. These aren't combat units, they are harassment units!
21 can end up being too wide and/or too deep to evade an enemy unit and you would have to resort to fighting.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
I use the same setup of 10 Corsairs with Handbows, Reaver with a pair of handbows in my games. I run them similar to what you are suggesting, except I only use a single unit and tend to have my shadow sorc in there. It is nice when my opponent is looking to target the sorc, and even with the corsairs' melee strength and defense, I shadowstep my sorc out and put in a combat BSB.
Looking forward to your review!
Looking forward to your review!
- Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
- Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Firstly, the idea was to fill up the core with something useful, and at the same time not to overload the list in core, so that's partially the reason behind corsairs.
Corsairs are also more resilient to enemy fire, they have more wounds to soak it, and actual armor save against it. Shades only have skirmish (which doesn't help against, say, magic missiles at all)
As for shooting ability... Shades move + rapid fire already hitting on 4+, if it's long range, then 5+
Corsairs move + rapid fire - hitting on 4+, but their range is so short that shades hold a little advantage here since they still have a chance of hitting, although on 5+
Again 7 Shades cost about the same, that's 14 shots. Shades get 22. With very similar accuracy, but worse range... and higher survivability.
Corsairs are also more resilient to enemy fire, they have more wounds to soak it, and actual armor save against it. Shades only have skirmish (which doesn't help against, say, magic missiles at all)
As for shooting ability... Shades move + rapid fire already hitting on 4+, if it's long range, then 5+
Corsairs move + rapid fire - hitting on 4+, but their range is so short that shades hold a little advantage here since they still have a chance of hitting, although on 5+
Again 7 Shades cost about the same, that's 14 shots. Shades get 22. With very similar accuracy, but worse range... and higher survivability.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
- Sulla
- Malekith's Best Friend
- Posts: 2261
- Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 5:56 am
- Location: Flying my manticore 'Bloodmaw', looking for prey.
The resilience of shades to shooting comes, mainly through staying out of shooting arc, rather than through the skirmish bonus.
You're right about resilience to magic missiles though. Do you expect to be facing many? I rarely see any these days. Plus, the mage needs them in his/her front arc to shoot. You could always factor that into your battleplans. A turn with the mage's unit facing away from the main battlelines is a turn of safety for other units from direct damage or magic missile (or conventional shooting) from that whole unit.
Anyway, no reason you couldn't do both units if needed. Let us know how it goes, especially compared to what you cut from your core. Lately I've been pretty down on my corsairs. I don't want to take shadow and they seem to bounce of any other core unit I match them against.
You're right about resilience to magic missiles though. Do you expect to be facing many? I rarely see any these days. Plus, the mage needs them in his/her front arc to shoot. You could always factor that into your battleplans. A turn with the mage's unit facing away from the main battlelines is a turn of safety for other units from direct damage or magic missile (or conventional shooting) from that whole unit.
Anyway, no reason you couldn't do both units if needed. Let us know how it goes, especially compared to what you cut from your core. Lately I've been pretty down on my corsairs. I don't want to take shadow and they seem to bounce of any other core unit I match them against.
- Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
- Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Thing is, at least that's what I do, is to take care of skirmishers first and harassers first. If it means swift reforming my 20 crossbows to get them, I'll do it.
Also, good deployment means only place for scouts is their own deployment zone, or in the middle of the field. It's not that easy to stay entirely out of front arcs of everything.
I'm thinking a straight up contest between 10 corsairs and 7 shades will see corsairs win in the end. (and that's what would be hunting shades in my army)
Also, good deployment means only place for scouts is their own deployment zone, or in the middle of the field. It's not that easy to stay entirely out of front arcs of everything.
I'm thinking a straight up contest between 10 corsairs and 7 shades will see corsairs win in the end. (and that's what would be hunting shades in my army)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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- Cold One Knight
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:27 pm
- Location: Yorkhire, The True North!
I have no idea why i have never thought of this before!
Needless to say, twenty corsairs are coming in the post (or Black Ark) as we speak.
I love you Dalamar for finally inspiring me to use some Corsairs! (always like them, never found a use for them!)
D
Needless to say, twenty corsairs are coming in the post (or Black Ark) as we speak.
I love you Dalamar for finally inspiring me to use some Corsairs! (always like them, never found a use for them!)
D
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- Rabidnid
- Malekith's Best Friend
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sulla wrote:You're right about resilience to magic missiles though. Do you expect to be facing many? I rarely see any these days. Plus, the mage needs them in his/her front arc to shoot. You could always factor that into your battleplans. A turn with the mage's unit facing away from the main battlelines is a turn of safety for other units from direct damage or magic missile (or conventional shooting) from that whole unit.
One of the reasons I run Dark and the familiar. Blowing all of their light units up and stopping their shooting is part of my MSU style.
"Luck is the residue of design"
My slight issue with this is the range thing - I have enough problems keeping my shades in range: particularly when my opponent is playing aggressively. With corsairs, it seems like the very short range would mean it would become easy to get outranged very easily, particularly if your enemy is swift moving on their flanks...
Anyway, I like others would be interested in hearing whether this experiment worked or not
Anyway, I like others would be interested in hearing whether this experiment worked or not
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I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
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I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
- Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
- Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Unfortunately I didn't get to play tonight, I'm not sure when I'll get a chance, November is busy as hell.
As for the being outranged question. How the hell do you get outranged with a 24" range shades?
My tactic will be the same as my Dark Riders, get around the flanks (Corsairs might have to take an extra turn), stick 1" beside or behind enemy unit, and keep shooting.
As for the being outranged question. How the hell do you get outranged with a 24" range shades?
My tactic will be the same as my Dark Riders, get around the flanks (Corsairs might have to take an extra turn), stick 1" beside or behind enemy unit, and keep shooting.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
- Lord tsunami
- Malekith's Best Friend
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:49 pm
- Location: Behind you!
i used this unit a bit about a year ago, and it isnt bad at all. i used it first as a defensive role, to clear a flank from enemy fast units rather than to try and run up and shoot the enemy main force, and they work great for this. they can take a charge from most fast cavalry/flyers/scouts and they can charge and kill them in return, or simply trade shots. No fast cav (except outriders possibly) can win a shooting battle against these guys. Once they have cleared the field of fast units, they can make a support charge for an extra rank (the front rank) in the steadfast count and some extra damage and CR. As you say, they are very cheap, and cheap units are rarely not worth to take.
I dont really know why i dont use them any longer tbh...
I dont really know why i dont use them any longer tbh...
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My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts
- Sulla
- Malekith's Best Friend
- Posts: 2261
- Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 5:56 am
- Location: Flying my manticore 'Bloodmaw', looking for prey.
So how have they been working out, Dal?Dalamar wrote:Unfortunately I didn't get to play tonight, I'm not sure when I'll get a chance, November is busy as hell.
As for the being outranged question. How the hell do you get outranged with a 24" range shades?
My tactic will be the same as my Dark Riders, get around the flanks (Corsairs might have to take an extra turn), stick 1" beside or behind enemy unit, and keep shooting.
The problem is Handbows don't have AP.
I personally still prefer a unit of 5 DR instead, mainly due to their mobility.
I personally still prefer a unit of 5 DR instead, mainly due to their mobility.
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.
Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -
Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike
Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride
Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock
*Magical properties possibly imbued
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.
Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -
Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike
Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride
Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock
*Magical properties possibly imbued