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Best way to use a Manticore? 
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Slave on the Altar
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Hey everyone,
I'm wanting to start a Khainite themed Dark Elf army and at higher points levels, I want a Manticore.

I know that they aren't the best and everyone thinks they'll just get shot down by turn 2. Well I don't think that's entirely true in reality as you will often have other equally dangerous targets (Hydra, Cauldron, Black Guard, Witch Elf Hordes etc etc)

But anyway, this thread is not about whether they're good or not but rather, what is the best way to equip and use one (with a Dreadlord)?

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Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:45 am
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Generalissimo
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Ring of Darkness is very good, as it reduces the chance of the manti and rider from getting shot down.

Iron curse pendant is useful for giving the manti a 6+ ward save against cannons and stone throwers. (I'm only referring to the manti here, as I am assuming your dreadlord will have a better ward save inherently).

A Cauldron of Blood can be handy for giving the manti a 5+ ward against all attacks (ditto to above).

Try to take lots of other quick moving, high profile targets. If you are going down the manti route, it can be a good idea to swamp your opponent so that he can't shoot down everything. I'm not a big fan of monster rush armies, but they are in many ways the best cover for a manti - if you have a trio of hydras, a couple of manticores and a dragon (#on the third day of Christmas, Malekith gave to me: three scary hydras, two bloody mantis and a dragon on a dead tree...), your opponent is going to have to prioritise one or two of them and ignore the others.

Oh, and welcome to D.Net.

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Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:19 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Use a few units of warmachine hunters (shades, harpies, DRs pr peg Master) to take care of warmachines early, they are its main weakness.

Avoid massed S4 shooting, ie stay clear of handgunners.

Give your opponent other targets to think about (as you have mentioned, Hydra's are great for this).

Dont charge into the front of units. Flank charges is where its at, because you can minimise return attacks while thunderstomping the infantry to death. Mantis are also usefull for wiping out small units of Knights with its KB and I5.

As Red said, Ring of Darkness is useful, but probably only worth it on a Dreadlord because its 40 points.

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Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:34 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Well, a hydra can take on handguns and riffles (I had fun with that fighting a dwarf army, and than he met the unkillable Thane).

Leave the dread lord and manti to other units such as bow firing targets, and low ld targets and let the terror do it's job.

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Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:49 am
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Ring of Darkness is good, but it's the same category as all ward saves, so It's either good ward for your Lord, or a Ring to protect them both from shooting.

If you take the Ring, Armor of Eternal Servitude and Dragongem should protect the Lord properly. (and take nearly all your magic items allowance)

Cauldron of Blood won't help the manticore, as the blessing never affects mounts (and Manticore is one).

As far as charging goes. I wouldn't even bother with charging flanks or rears. Where manticore excels is small to medium (up to 10 models) units with heavy armor.

Example Manti Dreadlord:

Dreadlord @465pts
Manticore
Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Pair of Handbows
Deathpiercer
Armor of Eternal Servitude
Ring of Darkness

That's nice 8 attacks with KB, which should make short work of nearly any unit of heavy cavalry.
Things to avoid:
Flaming attacks (Dragongem can save from it, but then no Deathpiercer)
Masses shooting and artillery (even at half BS, enough shots will get through, with true LoS in game now, your best bet is avoiding front arcs of shooting units entirely, and taking care of warmachines as fast as possible)
Infantry Blocks (no matter how awesome, if you put yourself in a bad position against a block of infantry, Manticore is more fragile than it might seem, they could kill it even without support)

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Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:58 pm
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Ah yes, had forgotten that Cauldron's don't affect mounts.

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Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:19 pm
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Slave on the Altar
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Thanks for the input guys, I honestly hadn't thought of Ring of Darkness. And armour of eternal servitude is a good one too as my opponent will have to direct his flaming shooting and/or flaming attacking units between two units.


@ Dalamar, what would be the purpose of the handbows on that build?

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Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:55 am
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Quote:
@ Dalamar, what would be the purpose of the handbows on that build?


I use this when points are permitting. It basically gives the manticore something to do on turns where there is no good charge. 4 shots opens up the possiblity of knocking random wounds off of regiments or monsters but mostly I find is a psychological thing. People don't like getting shot at from a big beastie like a manti.

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Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:23 pm
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Don't ever forget Goblin Fanatics! A pair of handbows is always a good way to stop these buggers from chewing up your battleline.

D

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Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:30 pm
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Handbows because you don't always have the opportunity to charge, so you can position yourself for a charge next turn and not waste the movement entirely. 4 shots hitting on 2+ against a unit of light cavalry might remove the need to deal with them in the future entirely.

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Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:37 pm
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Only problem with the Handbows is he cant march and shoot, so he is limited to 10" move if he wants to shoot. If he could march and shoot, they would definitely be worth it, flying 20" and unload 4 shots into fast cav, then charge a unit of Knights next turn.

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Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:48 am
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It's a problem with all ranged weapons, not just handbows. Once you're behind enemy lines, 8" is not a problem.

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8th Edition army book W/D/L:
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Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:39 pm
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... as a paperweight.

But seriously, the main thing is that to collect victory points, your opponent needs to kill the rider as well as the mount. To that end, I would take full armor plus the Pendant on the rider. I think that Deathpiercer is a good weapon so that you can use the model to try to assassinate enemy combat characters. Support the model with Shadow and/or Dark magic -- Miasma if needed to drop enemy initiative to a point where the Manticore gets to go first, and Word of Pain or Miasma to drop enemy WS to a point where they are hitting on a 5+ in close combat.

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Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:04 pm
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I don't like deathpiercer in a solo model. If you charge a unit with a champion, he will only issue a challenge with him and negate you killing blow capacity (work only on the turn you charge, remember.)

The manti is best used in a combi charge, when she take the flank/rear, and an other unit take the front/flank. That way, it's impossible for you opponent to combat reform wince you're fighting him on 2 different side. If you solo charge with the manti, your opponent will be steadfast providing he have at least 5 guys, and can reform if you charge the flank.

I use the manti for anti-cavalery when I don't field executionner. It's one of our best tools against them.

Regards!


Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:23 pm
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a18no wrote:
I don't like deathpiercer in a solo model. If you charge a unit with a champion, he will only issue a challenge with him and negate you killing blow capacity (work only on the turn you charge, remember.)

Regards!


Its always KB, just S-4 in subsequent rounds.

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Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:44 pm
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You can't use lances in subsequent rounds, so you don't get either the +3 bonus or KB from the magic lance after the first round...your character reverts to using his hand weapon.

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Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:53 pm
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Red... wrote:
You can't use lances in subsequent rounds, so you don't get either the +3 bonus or KB from the magic lance after the first round...your character reverts to using his hand weapon.


Really, where do the rules say that? The lance give you a +2 on the charge, there is nothing to say you stop using it in subsequent rounds. Apart from which, its a magic weapon, so does the user no longer count as using a magic weapon in subsequent rounds. I would also like to see the rule that says that.

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Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:40 pm
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P90: "*A lance is only used in a turn in which the wielder charged into combat. In subsequent turns (or if the wielder did not charge) the model uses its hand weapon"

On p89 it states that a character will always use a magical close combat weapon in preference to any other, which would seem to conflict with the rule on lances re: p90. I asked about this on here a few months back and was told that the p90 takes priority over the p89 one (because the p89 one says "if the magical weapon is destroyed or rendered useless then he will his special close combat weapon (if he has one) before finally resorting to his hand weapon" - once the character is no longer a charge, his lance is rendered useless, and so he uses a handweapon instead). Hopefully others can clarify on that though...

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Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:24 pm
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Yeah, that's one of the changes of the 8th ed. Lances are charge only weapons.

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Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:08 am
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Dalamar wrote:
Yeah, that's one of the changes of the 8th ed. Lances are charge only weapons.


Ahh, never use lances and no one has used a magic one against me so missed that. Makes magic lances pretty much worthless though.

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Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:12 am
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Well, ideally a unit with lances will break the unit they face on the charge, allowing for an overrun or next-turn charge. Thus, the lance would always be used.

In practice... not so much.


Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:23 pm
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I just want to know what the rider does with his lance when he's switched to the hand weapon. We know he keeps it with him, because he can use it in subsequent combats if he again gets the charge, so presumably he must need somewhere to hold it while he's chopping away with his sword.

"Is that a lance in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?"

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Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:13 pm
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In medieval warfare, traditionally a number of squires and pages would be present to resupply their Knightly Lords with additonial lances!

Now, i know that Warhammer is not medieval warfare but using this general theme i don't think it's too far fetched to believe that very low level Druchii or "trusted" slave would be given the role of carrying secondary lances. Anyone who has ever held a lance will know its weight and hugely off center balance makes it almost impossible to use on foot, so it's not like they could use these weapons against their liege lords.

Before anyone shout's "But why don't the enemy kill them", when faced with a armed unit of professional soldiers bearing down on you or a young lad on a draft pony carrying a bunch of sheathed weapons, who would you think is the greater, immediate threat?

In the case of a Magical lance, i'd guess the individual would just burying it into the ground (probably with the impaled corpse of his last victim still attached) and quickly seize the weapon before moving on.

On a nice side note, i once saw a Brettonian player take this to the extreme and model dozens of amazing conversions of squires and pages carrying replacements not to mention a overly burdened peasant carrying arrows for the longbows.

Anyway, just my florin!

D

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Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:45 pm
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Slave on the Altar
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Thanks for all the responses and ideas :)
Personally I don't rate Killing Blow all that well. I don't think it's a good way to spend an extra (25-normal lance cost) 19pts. Especially when he only has 4 attacks anyway.

So here's the build I think I'll go with that seems to be pretty good.

Dreadlord @ 430pts
Manticore
Ring of Darkness, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Shield, Lance, Sea Dragon Cloak

So firing at him/ the manticore; you have half BS, he regenerates and he's got a 2+ armour save. 4 S6 attacks, 4 S5 attacks and D6 S5 hits in combat.
And I'll use him to take out heavy cavalry by himself, or to flank or rear charge already engaged units.

Thanks for all the help :)

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Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:43 am
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If you don't take Deathpiercer, then dragon gem is a valuable investment. If you get hit by flaming attack you have 2+ ward instead of nothing.

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7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
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