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Ogre problems 
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:10 pm
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Location: Canada
Hi all,

Since the new ogre book came out, i have 5 loses in 6 games. The only victory was just pure luck. I tried with alot of combinations but always the same thing... defeat.

One thing that i'm not certain, it's the greedy fist on ogre mage. If he hits a mage with it, the mage loses a lvl of magic. but if he cast magic missile on mage does it still works?

Thank you for your help


Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:20 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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what exactly are you struggling against?

leadbelchers shooting you to pieces?

infantry?

mournfang cavalry?


Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:37 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:16 am
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A little off-topic, but today, my 14-man WE unit wiped out 6 Leadbelchers, 4 Mournfang Cavalry, and 1 of those giant mammoth things that has the flying bear trap. Occam's is my friend :P

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Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:45 pm
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I play ogres as my main army, DE as my second, so I know a few of their weaknesses,
It really depends on what his list looks like, and what your list looks like. But here are a few of their main weakpoints:
Low leadership. It will be surprising to see anything with LD above 9, with the average around 7 or 8. forcing panic checks can wreck an ogre army.
Ogres are tough, but there are not many of them. losing a single ogre can cripple the unit. And they dont usually run in large groups (thats not to say that they cant I am currently planning on a 18 man irongut unit and adding some characters) so killing 1 or 2 (3-6wounds) can send them running.
Low Initiative. hit them with a purple sun, 1 failed check is 3 wounds lost.
Try to get some flaming attacks in your army. If the ogre player gets off trollguts (gives units regen) the ogres become a fleshy brick wall. Its a spell I rely on in tough situations.

As for the greedy fist, sadly, it does still work. All the ogre mage has to do is wound your wizard in any way and the wizard loses a level, be it magic or punching you in the face It was FAQed and that is how it works. Its a cheezy trick even I dont use (I prefer hellheart for my anti-magic)

I could provide more information on how to beat them if I know what they use and whats in your army. These are just some basic tips.


Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:06 pm
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Kefka, you should write up a fighting ogres mini faq.

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Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:15 pm
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Don't forget the armor. 6+ seems to be the most common armor save, with a close 5+.

Shooting is a very viable option, and while most cases you will need a 5+ to wound them, lore of fire's sword of rhuine can give your shooty unit's a +1 to wound, and lore of shadows' enfeebling foe reduces enemy toughnes by D3.

For a more close combat option, Lore of Fire works again, and there is also Lore of Shadows Mind Razor to alow you to wound on you LD.

Another problem is one faced when fighting beastmen as well: momentum.

WIth a 12" march, they can get to you in very little turns. And once they get into Close combat (CC for short) they can have some real fun.

If they charge, things go to crap as even though they have dwarf initiative, their impact hits are nasty. Every ogre model in base contact causes 1 impact it at their strength, a strength that goes up by 1 if they have an extra rank. Add some augment spells to increase strength/toughness and things get worse.

I'm not sure if impact hits will include the second rank as they are are technicly in base to base contact, that is at least 3-6 auto hits at 4-5/maybe even up to 6 strength attacks.

Then presuming they survive your assault, you have the three S4 attacks from the three guys in front throwing 9/10 attacks at you, then you have the monstrous infantry behind them dishing out another 9 attacks.

And that is if they don't have an extra hand weapon. Now who would like to fight something that can dish out 28 S4 attacks? plus 3/6 from the impact hits? Avoid CC, but if you must GET THE CHARGE ON THEM FIRST!

Poison attacks can get past the toughness, so witch elves work nicely, and Black Guard can at least wound on 4's. Executions will strik last unless they have the Death hag BSB with Standard of Hag Greif, but can at last wound them on a regular bases (just make sure they get the ward save from the couldron).

So lore of shadow's enfeebling foe to reduce their attacks will be a must if you do plan on going hand to hand combat with them.

Also, watch out for the new maneaters. Each unit can take two special rules, and no two has to be alike (although nothing stopping the player). This includes sniper and poison attacks. While poison seems a bit overkill, add that to sniper and it can be deadly against monsters. The Sniper rule alone can mean the end of a death hag or sorceress who lack armor. Make sure they have ward saves, espesialy the supreme sorceress. ANd as always, take a couldron for this as well.

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Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:43 am
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Actually, if their only shooting is the sniper/poison maneaters. Position your sorceresses behind your units.

They can still see between models to cast their spells, they can also be seen.
But maneaters shooting at them will take additional -2 to hit for unit cover, which more often than not will mean they hit on 7+, and that means no poison!

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Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:46 am
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What about leadbelchers now that they noong suffer misfires, have a 24" shooting range, and get's up to 30" when they move, and suffers no -1 from fom moving and shooting and from multiple shots (skirmishers, stand and shoot, over half range, and cover all normal)

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Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:21 am
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Ogres made the same jump as Dark Elves - they went from broken *bad* to broken *good*. A unit of 9-12 will crush just about anything they touch, Leadbelchers are really excellent now, the Greedy Fist/Dark Magic combo is one of the worst in the game, Hellbeart is one of the best items in the game hands down, the Ironblaster is one of the best cannon in the game, and they have access to the cheapest redirectors in the game at 21 points. I haven't faced the ogres yet but I have yet to see them lose to anyone. That being said, in my head small groups of Witch Elves will do good damage for low point values, shooting with the Lore of Shadow will hurt them, Mindrazor/Purple Sun/Pit of Shades of course, and Harpies are still solid redirectors. Overall this looks like a tough match up for us.

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Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:20 pm
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phierlihy wrote:
Ogres made the same jump as Dark Elves - they went from broken *bad* to broken *good*. A unit of 9-12 will crush just about anything they touch, Leadbelchers are really excellent now, the Greedy Fist/Dark Magic combo is one of the worst in the game, Hellbeart is one of the best items in the game hands down, the Ironblaster is one of the best cannon in the game, and they have access to the cheapest redirectors in the game at 21 points. I haven't faced the ogres yet but I have yet to see them lose to anyone. That being said, in my head small groups of Witch Elves will do good damage for low point values, shooting with the Lore of Shadow will hurt them, Mindrazor/Purple Sun/Pit of Shades of course, and Harpies are still solid redirectors. Overall this looks like a tough match up for us.


like to note that you pay 25 points for a unit of 10 gnoblars yet only 23 point s for a unit of 5+1 packmaster of giant rats so cheapest redirector is skaven

and even then you only pay 15 points for a naked warplock engineer


Last edited by Flash29 on Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:37 pm
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point for point, ledbelchers are still worse than empire handgunners when it comes to shooting. they are nasty, and they cant be killed by darkriders in CC (usually), but usually you will face ~5 of them and it isnt a huge problem. Dark riders could even beat them if you flank charge. problem is to get them in range without dying though :P

My experience against ogres is still very limited, but id treat them like most other armies: dont fight unless you know you will win! they are usually very vulnerable to missiles and magic, because they will (most often) lose fighting models from the very beginning. a "standard" 30 unit of RXB would do 5,5 wounds per turn on them. that doesnt sound like alot, but that is almost 2 dead ogres out of a unit that usually consists of 6-8.

as mentioned above, do not let them charge you. you will have enough trouble without impact hits. but remember that you fight first. black guard (7 wide) would do almost 10 wounds on average. that is 3 dead ogres before they get to fight at all. they will be wiped out by round 2 (though the BG will have a fair dent in them as well).

Cavalry can be effective as well. They will usually rush forward (shoot them if they dont) and that can give CoK the charge. 10 CoK will do around 8 wounds on the first round, and will be imune to the stomps in return AND have a good save vs the ogre (not ironguts, but still) attacks.

i probably have some other exciting insights too, but i gotta go now :P

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Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:38 pm
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Archon_Matt wrote:
A little off-topic, but today, my 14-man WE unit wiped out 6 Leadbelchers, 4 Mournfang Cavalry, and 1 of those giant mammoth things that has the flying bear trap. Occam's is my friend :P
...but could you beat OK without Shadow?

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Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:06 am
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ow yeah take lore of death, it has some good sniping spells , the ld reduction really hurts since the general is usually a ld 8 slaughtermaster, doom and darkness reduces both strength and tougness and purple sun can wipe our a unit of ogres. and get enough dice for another spel or 2. Metal, not really good, wouldn't recommend, fire, well it will do damage, and it combo's decently with death (generate spells, and focus fire (+d3 from fire) will leave your opponent wanting in dispel dice, dark i couldn't recommend exept for black horror which can remove gnoblar units out of ld reach.


Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:17 pm
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It will take a few more months for people to really get a handle on the new ogre list. When most of us have had a chance to play them a few time and have our fair share of victories and defeats I will be interested to see how the anti-ogre tactics debate develops.

I have yet to play even one game against the new army, but getting out the calculator I think my Hydra Banner BSB + Knights + Cauldron could run through almost any unit an ogre player might put down in one round, on the charge that is.

The challenge would be clearing away those re-directors with the rest of my army so the Knights can get into the decisive combat at the right time.

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Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:22 pm
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MSU works wonders.

Give them a nice CHEAP bait unit (5 naked COK works well) or two for them to shoot while your main forces move up. Units of 10 witches still tear Ogres up, and even if you loose them you haven't lost much. I cannot emphasize how much difference poison makes on these girls, they perform worlds better than corsairs against ogres.

A L4 with Shadow is definitely the way to go. Between Withering and a nice big unit of RXBs, I shot an Ogre deathstar almost to death recently. I traded Pit of Shades for Miasma, because a) save-or-suck spells are cheesy, and b) I wanted more rounds to shoot at them. :twisted:


Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:27 am
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Well, I haven't played as much against ogres as I'd like, but these are the main things that worked nicely for me against them:

- Witch Elves: Yeah, seems like I always turn to those these days, but poison is just awesome. If you get mindrazor on them... well, no need for any further comment.

- Shadow Magic: Well, this is against all armies I guess, but think about it. Withering makes you able to pluck them down with shooting quite easily, or even makes your corsairs able to kill them. Mindrazor makes your one unit strong enough to rip ogres apart. Pit of Shades against their weak initiative.... and the other spells for that sake. By Khaines bloody hand, this lore is just so powerful.

- Hydra; Our allrounder goodness, chews ogres for breakfeast.... although, he can be picked apart as well.

- Harpies: To block the ogres and not let them get the charge in against our soft troops.

That's my tips for the week at least :p


Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:09 pm
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small units of black guard are interesting too. they dont hit quite as hard as the WE, but if only one of them survive, they will stay in place and prevent an overrun. ofc this can be done with WE with a cauldron too :)

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Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:58 pm
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Simply put - magic is not a particularly viable tactic. With the Greedy Fist/Death Magic ruling, by turns one or two you can't expect to have much of a mage left. And if you do, Hellheart will do the rest.

MSU - A decent Ogre charge will smush them.

Hydra - against the best cannons in the game, you can kiss them goodbye.

Witch Elves - probably the best option.

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Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:06 am
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phierlihy wrote:
MSU - A decent Ogre charge will smush them.


A decent Ogre charge will smush one of them. And small units of, say, Witches or Black Guard will carve more than their points worth out of the ogres as they die.

The point of MSU is that you are sacrificing small, cheap units as you whittle away their numbers and abosrb their firepower... and keep coming with more units. In the end, he can't kill them all, or even prevent himself from being flanked and killed.


Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:29 am
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I can and have beat them using one level 4 of fire. I remain unimpressed with the orge book. Yes it came into line with the rest of the 8th books. But it did not go over the top. You know what orges hate in spades? Manbane and ASF. Between those items and oh lets say 2 20's of repeaters. Orges just dont like that.

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Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:09 am
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Geist wrote:
I can and have beat them using one level 4 of fire. I remain unimpressed with the orge book. Yes it came into line with the rest of the 8th books. But it did not go over the top. You know what orges hate in spades? Manbane and ASF. Between those items and oh lets say 2 20's of repeaters. Orges just dont like that.


So, Death by 1000 cuts is the way to go?

Why is the greedy fist, so nasty? The way I see it is, is there's a lot of things to target in an ogre army besides the dude holding the fist. Am I missing something?


Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:35 am
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The Greedy Fist was FAQd that all hits the bearer of the Greedy Fist does reduce wizard levels. The spells on the Lore of Death all do "hits". So it doesn't matter if your level 4 Soceress survives whatever spell what just thrown, if it did four "hits", she's not a wizard anymore. Just by getting one spell through per phase, he should eliminate one of your casters per turn (assuming you brought more than one). If a Dark Elf player has a functioning wizard on the table beyond turns two or three, I'm impressed!

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Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:10 pm
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just for the record, the lvl 0 death spell does not do hits. the others do though, but it is important that the lvl 0 doesnt. makes it easier to handle.

If we go back to the OP, i think the question we should ask is not "what units are good vs ogres" but rather "how can we use a fairly standard list well against ogres". Tailoring isnt really a great option, because then you assume that you know what type of list your opponent plays. lets say you decide to go for plenty of witches because they are great against ogres. what happens when your opponent brings 3 huge units of mournfangs to counter your witches? you can both keep "countering" each other for all eternity and the games will be dull as hell :P

After having faced ogres no more than ~5 times, and watched ~15 games with ogres involved my tip is the following. Ogres are DANGEROUS! you have to decide who fights what or you will be overrun. use the mobile units we have to slow and redirect and focus fire down one block at a time. elite infantry and cavalry do well against ogres (assuming you strike first) but they can still pack so much punch in return to leave your army in shatters. Getting a flank charge on them is a HUGE help, because then you can win the first round with ease, and he will likely not be steadfast, but if you cant get a flank charge, at least get the charge. impact hits can tip the combats, and mournfangs can kill whole regiments on the charge.

A huge weakness he has is his low Ld. even if he has a high Ld general, he will have trouble fitting all (or even half) of his units in the Ld bubble. Causing panic checks on units on the flanks is very effective. even good old march blocking can work. use all the dirty tricks you have to avoid a fair fight, cause you wont come up on top.

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Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:48 pm
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executioner's axe, blood armour with the ASF banner, great at killing ogre characters
against RnF split your attacks between 2 ogres, unless you roll really poorly you should kill them.

and any spells that require In checks

these have worked well for me so far....

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Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:10 pm
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you dont have to split your attacks even against rank and file. multiple wound stuff just carries over to the next guy against units of multi-wounded stuff. :)

I might have to try that guy out a bit. he is indeed insanely powerful against ogres :)

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Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:35 am
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