Questions about conversions/"counts as" usage

Nuriochi_sol · Post by **Nuriochi_sol** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:22 am

I'm new to WHFB and plastics in general. I'm coming from another game where the rules on proxies and conversion are prohibitively strict. As a result, I'm slow to transition. So I have some modelling questions.

1. What do folks use for the Dark Pegasus I've heard some give their Dreadlords?

2. Do you think the Sorceress from the Black Dragon plastic kit will fit on the Warriors of Chaos Manticore? Anyone try it or have any advice about undertaking it?

3. What are the rules about "counts as" usage? For example, I think the finecast Dreadlord on Cold One looks a LOT better than the current Malus fig. Can I just say "Hey, this is Malus."? For the Manticore example above - I could use it as a Supreme Sorceress or Crone Hellebron, right?

Thanks in advance.

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:27 am

1. We use a dark pegasus. Some people convert the Morathi model, some use Brettonian Pegasus knights painted dark.

2. It will probably not, warriors of chaos tend to have wider mounts. But sorceress on a manticore? Unless you're doing it for aesthetic values, it has no good gameplay application.

3. As long as you make SURE that your opponent is aware of the fact, even better if you try to make the model look apropriately (for example pain the dreadlord on cold one to look like Malus with pale skin and black veins flowing up his face), there should be no problem. Just don't go over the top saying "Those 4 cold one knights set up 2x2 are my chariot"

Nuriochi_sol · Post by **Nuriochi_sol** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:38 am

Thanks for the response! As a new player, the manticore seems really cool, but it's lacking in game play, eh? Good to know.

Two more questions - total n00b ones at that - do characters (heroes and lords) on mounts survive the deaths of their mounts and therefore need dismounted models?

Also, for the named add-ons to units - like Kouran for the Black Guard and Tullaris for the Executioners - how do people represent them?

I'm building my army slowly and want to do it right, so any help in these issues is greatly appreciated.

Sisstros · Post by **Sisstros** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:24 am

You can order the Dark Pegasus wings separately from the GW online shop.

With patience and some modeling putty, putting them onto a Bretonnian Pegasus Knight's steed's body is not too difficult.

I ordered 3 sets of wings, a box of peg Knights and a box of Cold One Knights to create: peg hero with sword, peg hero with lance, and peg hero BSB (I had an idea for a flying circus army list but have never actually run it). Plus I got the spare Cold Ones to put on my chariots.

Large monsters such as Dragons or Manticores can be killed from under the character riding them so having a representative infantry model is recommended; smaller monsters such a Pegasus cannot be attacked separately however, so having a model on foot is not necessary.

For Kouran and Tullaris you could perhaps use a Gamezone Miniatures Dark Elf lancer and Games Workshop Deadlord with great weapon respectively. You do not see either character in many army lists though as they are very expensive in terms of points for what they offer.

Best of luck

Nuriochi_sol · Post by **Nuriochi_sol** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:10 am

Awesome advice! Did you find the Peg Knights had too much Bret stuff on them and needed it removed?

Dismount stuff - what about Cold Ones - for example, Malus gets dismounted, right? What about a Dreadlord, Hero, Sorceress, etc on Cold One?

I'm reading the stuff in the 8th ed book on character mounts and it's still a bit wonky to me. Reading that, it's not until you're up to Ridden Monsters that you worry about dismounted possibility. So for Dark Elves - that's Dragons and Manticores. So by that logic, Malus wouldn't get a dismount - so which statline do you use?!?! AAAAhhh...

Sorry, I know this is getting way off topic, but I feel like I'm fumbling through some of these questions on my own.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:55 am

For my Dark Peggy, I used a standard horse, some left over dragon wings I found (from my 1980s stuff, so actually about the right size for a DP by GW's current standards).

IIRC a sorcerss can't go on a manticore, which is why she has no gameplaying value mounted as such. That said, I can't find my DE book right now, so I could be wrong...

Characters survive the death of monster mounts or chariot mounts, but other mounts are counted as part of the character model, not separately. For Dark Elves that means that a character will survive the death of a dragon, manticore or chariot and vice versa, but a cold one, dark steed or dark peggy are bound to the model of the character so will die when they do.

For Dark Peggies, Dark Steeds and Cold Ones, you can find how split profiles work on p82 of the main rule book, under 'split profile'. This includes Malus and Spite.

What is acceptable as a substitute / 'counts as' really depends a lot on where and who you are playing. At a GW tournament, for example, they tend to insist that you use GW figures and that these are the models they are supposed to be. You get a bit of leniency in terms of using older citadel models, as long as they are still the models they are supposed to be, and may even be allowed to use one GW model in the place of another (as per your suggestion of using a dreadlord model to represent Malus). At other tournaments, different rules will apply. In friendly games, your opponent will normally let you run as many proxies or 'counts as' models as you like, as long as it's within reason and everything is clearly identified at the start.

Usually people just sub in the Champion models from the standard GW line up for Kouran and Tullaris. Because they replace the champion equivalent in each of their units, this works just fine. Just let your opponent know when you're unpacking your armies prior to deployment that this is what you're doing.

Nuriochi_sol · Post by **Nuriochi_sol** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:15 pm

Yeah, I found that page probably about the time you were writing this. That little book is so dense, it's hard to wade through sometimes.

I know the Supreme Sorceress and Crone Hellebron can ride a Manticore. But I've read suggestions in the army building subforums that the Manti isn't worth the points.

I'm going to post this question over there...

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:31 am

For my Dark Pegasus I used a normal Elf Horse and Belakors Wings. It looks awesome imo, I just dont like all the fabric on the bretonnian horse. On top sits an old Cold One Champion.

Lokil

van Awful · Post by **van Awful** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:10 pm

You got a picture of that Lokil?
Sounds great, and since i got all the parts (really liked the belakor model) , i might have to steal your idea!

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:55 pm

sure ill try to upload it asap xD

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:27 pm

http://s1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii5 ... CF7276.jpg

and the following 4 pictures should offer a good look... I did have to srape a little bit of the saddle to make it fit though. All together a really easy conversion no greenstuff or the like needed.

Pil0din · Post by **Pil0din** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:36 pm

Lokil wrote:http://s1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii520/lokil88/?action=view&current=DSCF7276.jpg#!oZZ1QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs1257.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii520%2Flokil88%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DDSCF7276.jpg

and the following 4 pictures should offer a good look... I did have to srape a little bit of the saddle to make it fit though. All together a really easy conversion no greenstuff or the like needed.

WoW!!! Its very nice conversion, i realy love it!! Must make something similar!

van Awful · Post by **van Awful** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:09 pm

That looks great. Consider it stolen mate!

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:48 pm

go ahead! but I expect yours to be better!

dont disappoint me.

van Awful · Post by **van Awful** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:27 pm

you expect a lot...But i'm doing pretty okay, i think. I started yesterday.
Did use a different horse though. Got no spare dark rider horses, a small shortage even.
I used an old dragonprince horse(FOR SHAME!! i really liked the head), I had planning to use for a dark steed for a sorceress. But well, i never used a sorceress on a dark steeds to be honest. result is not to bad.
Now to find a rider, i like the idea of the Cok champ. (no shield to bother with) but i'm not sure yet. I'll post some pics when i'm done!

Lokil · Post by **Lokil** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:54 pm

I played around a little bit and got an alternative rider... the mounted dreadlord with the handbow from the dragon box instead of his shield... not shure if it just looks better because the model is newer or if it actually looks better