Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:30 am



Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Help with HE archmage 
Author Message
Dark Rider
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 10:35 am
Posts: 143
Post 
Probably, either way im going to give it one last shot at the weekend with a new list with some of the character builds ive been suggested.
Before the game im going to say, win or lose this is the last time im playing against these HE.
Should get 2 or 3 games in so ill see how it goes


Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:28 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:49 pm
Posts: 1308
Location: Behind you!
Post 
i just saw an AWESOME way to kill this combo that should work.

on page 36 in the BRB it says that "remain in play spells can be dispelled AT ANY POINT in subsequent magic phase" using either dispel or power dice.

hence, he casts ToV and it goes through. then he casts dwellers and you cry (use any of the above advice to soften the effects).

in his NEXT magic phase, he casts dwellers again and gets IF. then you say "ok, ill dispell that ToV now". you roll over 7 and it is dispelled. he now suffers a misscasts.

this obviously has a fatal flaw though. you can not dispell a remain in play spell (except when it is being cast ofc) in the same phase as it was cast. so if he choses to recast it every phase the above tactics will not work, BUT it still forces him to recast it every turn. he may not have enough dice for that AND he risks failing to get an IF (he is not guaranteed to get IF, he is just very likely) and if he does manage to get two IFs off every turn he still has a 1/6 chance to get that miscast every spell. as i said, its like russian roulette. how many times would you be willing to pull the trigger?

So, this will not kill the combo entirely (against a crafty opponent) BUT it will at least surprise him once. if he is crafty it will instead force him to cast ToV every turn without you needing to spend any dispel/power dice. you just have to threaten to dispel it, and he will have to recast it every turn to be safe. that definitely softens the cheese a bit. :)

_________________
I am a proud member of The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts


Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:32 am
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3717
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Surely a spell is resolved in its entirety before a dispel of another spell can be carried out? So, if he casts Dwellers, you can't simultaneously dispel ToV because you resolve Dwellers (and accompanying IF miscast) as soon as it is not dispelled.

I imagine the sequence would be:
- Player 1 casts Dwellers with IF
- Dwellers is resolved
- IF Miscast is resolved
- Player 2 dispels ToV

Not:
- Player 1 casts Dwellers with IF
- Player 2 dispels ToV
- Dwellers is resolved
- IF Miscast is resolved

Perhaps you could elaborate more on when you saw the strategy and/or rules logic behind the suggestion?

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:05 pm
Profile
Trainee Warrior

Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:14 am
Posts: 35
Post 
Instead of dispelling ToV after the cast but before the miscast, use 2 pd at the very beginning of the magic phase before he casts anything to dispel ToV. It will force him to recast ToV before casting Dwellers.

If your opponent always throws 6pd at ToV you are exchanging 2dd for 6pd and he may not have enough pd to cast Dwellers or anything else.

_________________
Blood in the Badlands Record - Week 11
W/L/T - 9/1/0


Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:16 pm
Profile
Empire General
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1207
Location: Leinster, Ireland
Post 
What's TFG?

_________________
Regards,

NK.


http://ulthuan.net/forum
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/index.php
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php
http://www.bartertown.com/trading/index.php

Give me a sense of humor Lord. Give me the grace to see a joke.
To get some humor out of life and pass it on to other folk.


Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:15 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:49 pm
Posts: 1308
Location: Behind you!
Post 
id have to disagree on the sequencing there red...

if you cast a spell without IF, you have "time" to dispel that spell after the casting dice have been thrown but before the spell takes effect (obviously, lol). Now you use that same "time space" to dispel another spell. i see no reason why it would be "slower" to dispel ToV.

see it like a magical fencing match. your opponent raises his sword to strike at you, and the gut reaction is to raise your sword to parry, even if it is quite obvious that he is far too strong and will cut through your block and hurt you. this is a way of doing a quick jab at his groin while he is still swinging with full might. you get a sword in the face either way, but at least you cut his balls off too :lol:

@grouss
my point is that with this method you wont have to actually dispel ToV (and use the dice). only the threat of dispel should force him to recast it, and if he does not recast you are there to dispel it when he needs it the most :)

_________________
I am a proud member of The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts


Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:39 am
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3717
Location: Baltimore
Post 
I think we'll have to agree to disagree Lord Tsunami: the way that the sequencing is written suggests that the only thing you can do in response to an enemy spell is dispel it (top of 35: "If the Wizard was able to cast his spell (and it was not cast with irresistible force) the opposing player now has a chance to prevent the spell's effects by attempting to dispel it.")

It definitely doesn't say "or dispel any other remains in play spells" at the end of the sentence. I think that the wording on the remains in play spells is meant to indicate that you can do it at any stage between, before or after other spells are being cast, not that you can do it during those spells being cast.

But, I can see where you're coming from and agree it is ambiguous :)

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:41 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:49 pm
Posts: 1308
Location: Behind you!
Post 
you could say that "at any point" means even during a spellcast ;)

_________________
I am a proud member of The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts


Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:49 pm
Profile
Slave on the Altar

Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:10 pm
Posts: 5
Post 
On the one hand the wizard who cast the remain in plays spell can also elect to end it "at any point" during the magic phase, which if used by Tsunamis logic would imply that you for instance can end Curse of the bad moon after you have rolled the random direction and distance.

On the other hand what you describe is sequence breaking. If you look at the last paragraphs in the magic section of the BRB you will find that it says that something like "you may change between wizards freely during the magic phase but must allways end a cast spells reslut before doing anything else". This would indicate that you may not interrupt the sequence of casting a spell. And the disppeling part of the sequence clearly states that you may attempt to dispell the spell that has just been cast, not anything else.

On the other hand... whoops I got three hands, better stop now.

_________________
Life is strenght, this is not to be contested it seems logical enough. You live, you affect your world.


Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:40 pm
Profile
Dark Rider
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 10:35 am
Posts: 143
Post 
How about this?

He has cast throne of vines on his last turn.
Now its his next turn and throne of vines is in play, he will now proceed to cast other spells first leaving 6 power dice for dwellers.....

I now declare im dispelling throne of vines just before he casts dwellers

I dispell it.

Now he has two choices:

Recast throne of vines and risk not having enough power to cast dwellers

or

Cast dwellers on 6 dice without the miscast protection


Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:57 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8713
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
How do you know he will start with spells other than dwellers?

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:39 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:49 pm
Posts: 1308
Location: Behind you!
Post 
mr summerdrake actually has a good point tbh. im starting to doubt my own idea... at worst you could just dispel ToV and force him to recast it...

if only warhammer had a clear sequencing system like magic the gathering...

_________________
I am a proud member of The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen
My armies: Tomb Kings - Lizardmen - Dark Elves - Vampire Counts


Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:51 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:28 am
Posts: 1734
Location: California
Post 
How does he tool his character up? the book is obvious, but what else? That can tell us if there are other methods of dealing with his madness.

The only other thing I could think of is try and get a Dark Using Supreme sorceress (chances are Black horror, Blade Wind, and Soul Stealer will be in there sooner or latter).

_________________
Who needs sanity? I have a Hydra


Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:10 am
Profile
Dark Rider
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 10:35 am
Posts: 143
Post 
As I said before, dwellers is instant death where as black horror isnt. I can only do 1 wound to him per turn with black horror and he can restore it instantly by casting any spell from the lore of life. Not to mention I would be well within range of dwellers (24") if Im trying to cast black horror (18")
Then I have to get through his +5 to dispell and magical ward saves against magic, offensive magic is hopeless here.
SO im putting my general in harms way in order to do absolutely nothing, besides his army is tooled up with magic defence.
I pulled a draw in my last battle against the mage though, but that was using a cheesy stubborn flying lord which I had no real fun using, so level 4 lore of shadow and level 1 lore of shadow seems only options at this point. Which work well against all other armies, I just dont know how well that will work against HE

Of course I know what spells he will cast first, why wouldnt he cast throne of vines first?
He wants to cast dwellers with 6 dice with no chance of a miscast and his general dying in the first turn (which happened to him one game)
So if he casts throne of vines first, he can safely throw all his dice at dwellers.
If I dispell it, then he still can cast dwellers, its just a bit more difficult.


Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:49 am
Profile
Slave on the Altar
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:39 am
Posts: 9
Post 
Right hi everybody! I am the opponent that lostshadow keeps talking about.

I came here looking for what kind of average Druchii lists people make to get an idea of what i could face in the future and then i saw this topic and i just had to register to make a few crucial points.

1) I have only used the Book of Hoeth once and i did so using Death which i was confused with how it worked (thinking irresistable with doubles but honestly forgetting that i still needed to meet minimum casting values was not counted as a win or lose to either of us).

2) I use the lore of Life alot but i rarely cast Throne of Vines with 6 dice (usually would save those for a Dwellers casting after) so normally its 2-3 dice sometimes its 4.

3) After a couple of games of killing his wizards i proposed a house rulles for Dwellers that he got a 'Look out Sir!' roll of 2+ against it. He accepted and games were much better.

4) I value other spells from the Lore of Life more. Like Flesh to Stone to protect my Swordmasters from his shooting and Regrowth to make sure i keep Steadfast.

5) One game i was using Shadow and miscasted first turn and my Archmage went into the warp. I saw no way of returning from that and seeing as most of my army was then Archers (an experimental list) i knew i had no chance and so while it was no fun for him. If i continued it would have been absolutly no fun for me!

6) On the subject of fun how much fun do you think i have when facing against such obviously better troops then mine for cheaper? Take Cold One Chariots and compare them to mine. Or take his low points Warriors against my Spears or take your Hydras, Deathlords with pendants and crowns etc. Sometimes its not fun playing an obviously stronger book then yours.

If i have missed anything or you would like to ask me some questions i will be happy to answer them.

This isn't a post to troll or flame lostshadow as his my friend and i do like our games we play (lostshadow take that last game THAT was fun!). This post was just to say that i am not as bad as this topic makes me out to be.

If you want to see my usual lists then visit Ulthuan.net i go by the same username there (or i can post some on this forum for you). Lostshadow don't go looking at my newest list ok!? We play closed lists and i am not looking for yours here ok? ;)

Thank You


Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:56 am
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3717
Location: Baltimore
Post 
The Silly Dragon, I agree with some of your points, but:

Quote:
6) On the subject of fun how much fun do you think i have when facing against such obviously better troops then mine for cheaper? Take Cold One Chariots and compare them to mine. Or take his low points Warriors against my Spears or take your Hydras, Deathlords with pendants and crowns etc. Sometimes its not fun playing an obviously stronger book then yours.


This is just whinging, to be honest. High Elves have numerous advantages to their troops, as do we. Always Strikes First for all High Elf troops, bolstered by two new bonuses in 8th edition - re-rolls versus same or lower I troops and the removal of ASF for ASF troops carrying ASL weapons in other armies - is a huge bonus.

Quote:
5) One game i was using Shadow and miscasted first turn and my Archmage went into the warp. I saw no way of returning from that and seeing as most of my army was then Archers (an experimental list) i knew i had no chance and so while it was no fun for him. If i continued it would have been absolutly no fun for me!


Clearly you upset your opponent, so you handled it badly. Yes, it can be a pain when you lose a key model early on, but to be honest conceding immediately because you brought an experimental list and it went wrong is not really in the spirit of the game...

Quote:
3) After a couple of games of killing his wizards i proposed a house rulles for Dwellers that he got a 'Look out Sir!' roll of 2+ against it. He accepted and games were much better.


I think you were probably wrong to do so. Why not help Lost Shadow figure out how to beat Dwellers rather than simply downscale it? But each to their own, if it works for you.

I recognise you feel slighted by Lost Shadow's post, but to be honest I think gatecrashing his attempt to find solutions to your playstyling is probably in a bit of bad taste. Let him get his advice from D.Net and you get yours from Ulthuan.Net. That's just my two cents.

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:51 am
Profile
Slave on the Altar
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:39 am
Posts: 9
Post 
I tried to make the game more friendly with the LOS roll for Dwellers as i don't really like 8th edition 'nuke' spells.

Whinging? really? You say numerous but only list 1 special rule which isn't even that great when you put step-up against it. Example: I strike first and do my damage, then you strike and do yours both re-roll to hit and same stats, but because your so much cheaper you win...that fair to you? To me it should be a draw on average in terms of wounds caused but when your 33% cheaper it hurts. ASF is cool for taking out small units of say 5-10 but in 8th how often do you see them except as chaff which are then doing their job if i am charging them. Everyone b****s about our ASF but when you think about it its not all its cracked up to be.

I agree quiting early was a bad thing but i was blinded with rage at the time that my lv4 Archmage miscasted with 3 dice first turn and died. Sometimes Warhammer and other dice based games suck. I do apologise to lostshadow for that game (even though it would have been boring to play it as its easily going to be a massacre anyways).

How to beat Dwellers? How do you unless you take scrolls etc? I gave him lots of advice about other aspects of his army but to be honest theres not alot i could think of to deal with Dwellers except kill the AM quickly.

Edit: Also spamming Dwellers IS NOT MY PLAY STYLE! its a spell i will use to take a unit's numbers down to managable numbers for my small elites to deal with. As many people have already said its effectiveness lessens the smaller a unit is. So its to take a bite but not another spell for me. If it snipes a powerful character in the process then thats a bonus. If i wanted to kill his wizards i would use the lore of Death.

I don't feel like i am gatecrashing this thread. I just wanted to point out some things that weren't true and set the record straight. Yeah i could just ignore it and stay over in Ulthuan.net but i realised that his getting advice about a situation that doesn't exist so wanted to help him out by making sure he gets the right advice. We're friends and i want to help him and him to help me.

We play experimental lists most of the time against each other so they are refined for when we go against other opponents at our local GW store. To say i always took Life for Dwellers was a statement that was not true, i take it for Regrowth and Flesh to Stone.

Are you asking me to quietly leave the forum Red...?

_________________
Humans are strange creatures, in a world of such fascination and wonder they have managed to invent boredom.


Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:05 pm
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3717
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Stay by all means, I just think the manner in which you 'corrected' the OP was...well, it left a bad taste in my mouth.

And yes, whinging:

There are strengths to both DE and HE, including for HE: +1 to dispel. Awesome magic items (such as the cloak of can't hurt me without magical attacks, the book of hoeth and the +1/-1 Dispel dice and power dice item), access to arguably the two best lores in the game (life and shadow, whereas we just get access to shadow), volleyfire - particularly handy on lothern seaguard, troops with 4+ ward saves, and so on. But I think the best way forward is to recognise that both books have good strengths (we have lots to) and move on.

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:53 pm
Profile
Slave on the Altar
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:39 am
Posts: 9
Post 
Red... wrote:
Stay by all means, I just think the manner in which you 'corrected' the OP was...well, it left a bad taste in my mouth.

True first impressions was not nice but seeing all that wrote about me left a bad taste in my mouth too.

And yes, whinging:

There are strengths to both DE and HE, including for HE: +1 to dispel. Awesome magic items (such as the cloak of can't hurt me without magical attacks, the book of hoeth and the +1/-1 Dispel dice and power dice item), access to arguably the two best lores in the game (life and shadow, whereas we just get access to shadow), volleyfire - particularly handy on lothern seaguard, troops with 4+ ward saves, and so on. But I think the best way forward is to recognise that both books have good strengths (we have lots to) and move on.

I agree partly here. We do have some very nice stuff and so do you. Its just yours seem cheaper. But i think people will never see the faults of other armies and find things to 'whinge about' in their own books.

Also every High Elf player agrees that LSG suck for the same kind of reasons why Dark Elf players think repeater hand bows suck on Corsairs (not all i know, but most)


If i was to face Life i would make sure to take some flaming attacks to negate the regen save of the signature spell. Then i would make sure to bring a scroll and plenty of fast units (in my case Dragon Princes with Champion and Amulet of Light) to take out the Archmage.

Then with him gone just sit back and shoot his support units then combo charge the big ones while redirecting away with Harpies anything that might bring too much hurt (Chariots etc).

_________________
Humans are strange creatures, in a world of such fascination and wonder they have managed to invent boredom.


Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:09 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:31 pm
Posts: 3023
Location: The Tower of Dust
Post 
Red... wrote:
There are strengths to both DE and HE, including for HE: +1 to dispel. Awesome magic items (such as the cloak of can't hurt me without magical attacks, the book of hoeth and the +1/-1 Dispel dice and power dice item), access to arguably the two best lores in the game (life and shadow, whereas we just get access to shadow), volleyfire - particularly handy on lothern seaguard, troops with 4+ ward saves, and so on. But I think the best way forward is to recognise that both books have good strengths (we have lots to) and move on.


I'm playing HE these days and the difference between the armies is quite interesting. ASF, rerolls every turn and no stupidity is glorious. The range of lores is nice as well, and the main reason I changed.

While HE players are - as a rule - a bunch of whiney bitches, the HE book is rated as a bottom tier book. The ETC rules that add 100 points to HE reflects that.

Everything is so expensive. There are no cheap monsters or unstoppable spellcasters like the CoB. It is very flexible though and a good player can do well. They make DE look like a point and click army by comparison :)

Life lore is far from unstoppable, HE have very few ItP troops and they can be just run off the table with enough terror causers.

In my experience of Uluthan net The Silly Dragon has been nothing but a gentleman. This, plus the more implausible claims of the OP, make me think that the OP needs better tactics more than his list needs to be toned down.

@lostshadow. DE can be a very hard army to play, and the match up versus HE is a painful one for both sides. Work on your tactics and army design, and victory will come.


The Silly Dragon wrote:
Lostshadow don't go looking at my newest list ok!? We play closed lists and i am not looking for yours here ok? ;)


Stick to open lists and talk about what the items do before the game. It will make everything a lot friendlier, and help you both learn the game and avoid mistakes in how items work.

_________________
"Luck is the residue of design"


Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:46 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software