Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:29 am



Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Khainite characters in regular unit 
Author Message
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:10 pm
Posts: 1378
Location: Norway
I just wanted to add that if you have asssasins in the shadestar and keep the cauldron of blood close enough, the whole unit will gain the stubborn rule. 8)


Moderator's note: This discussion has started with D.R.A.I.C.H. :: 8th ed "Shade-Deathstars"
It deserves a thread on its own.

Calisson

_________________
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10


Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:28 pm
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 987
Post 
Some people will argue that, because of the "Killer not a Leader" rule.


Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:25 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:19 am
Posts: 2089
Post 
Correct! A unit of Shades with a Khainite character is not a Khainite unit. Solo Khainite characters or Khainite character in Khainite units would only benefit from a Cauldron of Blood's Stubborn effect.

_________________
Proud supporter of druchii.net
phierlihy@druchii.net


Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:00 am
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 987
Post 
Apparently you missed the rule where a Stubborn character passes on their Stubborn rule to the unit. There is NO issue with a Death Hag passing Stubborn on, no more than there is an issue with the unit using her Leadership.

Death Hags are Khainite characters; Khainite units (character or otherwise) are stubborn within a certain range of the Cauldron; Stubborn charcters pass on Stubborn to the unit. 1-2-3, simple as that. Whether the UNIT is Khainite or not never enters into the equation.

The issue is specific to Assassins. Since they have the Killer Not A Leader rule, the unit cannot use their Ld10 for tests. So... do they also pass on Stubborn, which is arguably a Leadership function?

Rules say yes, because Stubborn is not tied to Leadership in any way, shape, or form. Fluff says no, Assassins aren't leaders... and it kinda gets vague from there.

But the rules are clear. Stubborn Characters make their units Stubborn.


Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:44 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:19 am
Posts: 2089
Post 
I'm sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding something. When I see a unit of Shades with an Assassin inside, I don't see what the Dark Elf armybook defines as a "Khainite unit". And not fulfulling that definition, I don't see how a non-Khainite unit would get to be Stubborn in the first place. Or to put it another way, I don't believe the 'Khainite' special rule carried by the Assassin gets passed on to the Shades. It's entirely possible my logic isn't correct - I'll try and see if I can find another example one way or the other... I'd love to be wrong but I'm not sure I am.

_________________
Proud supporter of druchii.net
phierlihy@druchii.net


Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:27 pm
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Post 
In the ETC 2012 the assasin passes on stubborn to the unit.

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:58 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:10 pm
Posts: 1378
Location: Norway
Post 
phierlihy wrote:
I'm sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding something. When I see a unit of Shades with an Assassin inside, I don't see what the Dark Elf armybook defines as a "Khainite unit". And not fulfulling that definition, I don't see how a non-Khainite unit would get to be Stubborn in the first place. Or to put it another way, I don't believe the 'Khainite' special rule carried by the Assassin gets passed on to the Shades.


Forget the khainite rule. The unit doesn't become khainite because they have a khainite character in it.

It's the main rule of stubborn. It says very clearly that a stubborn character in a unit, passes on the stubborn rule onto the unit. So, if any khainites is in any non-khainite unit and the character is within 12 of a cauldron, he will be stubborn, and the unit will also be stubborn. :D

Whether the character can use his LD onto the unit or not, doesn't matter.

_________________
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10


Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:36 am
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
That seems to be a case of subtle argument.


Units with characters inside may have the following status (I believe that I am exhaustive):
Lone characters. P.96: Characters who have NOT joined another unit are treated as separate unit.
Character's unit. P.97: Characters can join other characters, forming an impromptu unit entirely made of characters.
Combined units. P.99: Whilst a character is part of a unit, both he and the unit are treated as a single combined unit for all purposes [save exceptions].
Mounted Chariot. P.105.
Ridden Monster. P.105.


When a character joins a unit, does he cease to be considered as a unit himself, or are the parts of a combined unit still considered as units themselves?
One way to solve that is to check what happens when either the character or the "characterless unit" is destroyed. Does it trigger a panic test or not?
It has been FAQed:
Q: At what point after a unit has been wiped out do any characters
remaining count as having left the unit? (p101)
A: As soon as the last model from the unit has been removed,
any remaining characters will count as a new unit. Note that
this will cause Panic tests to all friendly units within 6"
(including the newly formed unit of character(s)) as the unit
has been destroyed.


With this FAQ, we can see that the "characterless unit" retains the status of a unit, but not the character: AFAIK, when a character is killed (i.e. after missing 'look out, sir'), there is no panic test.


It seems clear that when a character is not by himself, he is not to be considered as a "unit" within another unit, but as a part of the unit.
Otherwise, you would have to make a panic test every time an embedded character is killed.
Similarly, when a monted character is killed, there is no test for the chariot he rides, and the monster makes a monster reaction test, which is not exactly a panic test. Therefore, the mounted character cannot be argued to be a unit within another unit.

So much for one of the argument.

-=-=-

Now, the other part of the question:
What is exaclty a Khainite unit?
Is it enough that a single component of the unit has the "Khainite" rule?

If so, that would mean that it would be enough to have at 6" of the CoB any model (even non Khainite) of a combined unit including a Khainite character.

If it requires all the components or models to be Khainite, then even Crone Hellebron on a Manticore is not a Khainite unit.

-=-=-

My conclusion:
Khainite characters embedded in other units (or with mounts) do NOT make the unit Khainite, and are not units themselves. Therefore they cannot benefit from COB's stubborn.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:18 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:10 pm
Posts: 1378
Location: Norway
Post 
As I said before, forget the term "Khainite". The unit isn't khainite, and that's not what I've said in the OP about the matter either. Just look at what the khainite character within 12 of the cauldron has: Stubborn.

Now, if you check up the rule "Stubborn" on p. 76, it says outright in the last line that when a stubborn character joins a unit, the unit is stubborn while he remains in its ranks.

So, the unit doesn't get stubborn because it's somehow khainite because a khainite character joins the unit. The unit is stubborn because a character which is stubborn, joins it.

_________________
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10


Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:53 am
Profile
Assassin

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 542
Location: belgium
Post 
the cauldron say's that all khainite UNIT's within 12" become stubborn. And when a character joins a unit, he stops being a unit himself and starts being a part of a combined unit. following the rulebook, he would not give the unit the khainite special rule, therefore, there is no khainite unit to be given stubborn.

Although i've always played it differently, RAW there is some logic to this.

if course it is kinda silly that, just because he's in a unit, a khainite character would not be inspired by a cauldron anymore


Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:56 pm
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:48 am
Posts: 448
Location: Athens
Post 
lets see...
1)Get an ordinary hero
2)Give him Crown of comman he gets stubborn
3)Include him in a unit and due to stubborn rule the ntire unit is stubborn now.

1)Get an assassin
2)Assassin are khainites wich means if 12" in range of CoB they get stubborn for free.
3)Put the assassin on a unit and due to subborn rules the entire unit profits.

There is no contradiction with the rules here people, some heroes have to pay through magic items some others get it from CoB and some from their @@. Stubborn rules are clear if a hero has stubborn one way or another and he gets inside a unit the entire unit becomes stubborn.

Funny crap how people can mess with this when they can't mess with Dragon Armor confering 2+ ward to both dragon and rider on "official tournaments" makes sense... oh w8

_________________
'And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch uppon every land.'

Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...


Last edited by Kristo on Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:59 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
kristo wrote:
2)Assassin are khainites wich means if 12" in range of CoB they get stubborn for free.
Not necessarily.
COB grants stubborn only if the two conditions are met:
- Khainite
- Unit.

The assassin is always Khainite.
However, as soon as he enters inside a unit, he "is" no longer a unit himself.
As long as the unit does not become Khainite itself, there is no longer any "Khainite unit" to speak of, which could benefit from the COB's stubborn.

Conclusion:
Rules do not support an assassin or a Death Hag making a non-Khainite unit stubborn.

House rules can decide otherwise, based on fluff, if you (and your opponent) decide so.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:05 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:19 am
Posts: 2089
Post 
I don't believe we can ignore the term "Khainite units" because that is the only type of unit that benefits from the Stubborn rule. And again, as a unit of Shades with an Assassin is not, IMHO, a "Khainite unit", it shouldn't be Stubborn.

On the flip side of the argument, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Omnichron is saying when a character "joins" the unit they make it Stubborn. Assassins generally appear in units but don't often join them (or at least mine don't). However if a Khainite character did join a unit, by racing from one unit to another for example, that oddly enough may confer Stubborn <---not sure though. My brain hurts.

_________________
Proud supporter of druchii.net
phierlihy@druchii.net


Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:09 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:10 pm
Posts: 1378
Location: Norway
Post 
I see...

As long as the character isn't with a unit, he is khainite as a unit (Because lone characters are treated as units).

Once he joins a unit, he will still be khainite, but as he isn't a unit on his own and the unit isn't khainite, the cauldron stubborness doesn't work on him anymore (nor the unit).

This is a strange one indeed.

_________________
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10


Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:29 pm
Profile
Trainee Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:22 am
Posts: 36
Location: The sunny south of England
Post 
phierlihy wrote:
I don't believe we can ignore the term "Khainite units" because that is the only type of unit that benefits from the Stubborn rule. And again, as a unit of Shades with an Assassin is not, IMHO, a "Khainite unit", it shouldn't be Stubborn.

On the flip side of the argument, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Omnichron is saying when a character "joins" the unit they make it Stubborn. Assassins generally appear in units but don't often join them (or at least mine don't). However if a Khainite character did join a unit, by racing from one unit to another for example, that oddly enough may confer Stubborn <---not sure though. My brain hurts.


Think I get what you're saying.
So...only a Khainite unit can acquire stubborn from the cauldron and shades with an assassin in aren't Khainite. However if that assassin pops out, gets stubborn because he is within 12" and then joins a unit, that unit is then stubborn? But they can't get it from the start.


Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:36 pm
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:28 pm
Posts: 497
Location: The Black Ark Nemesis
Post 
Seems like an important issue in competitive play. Has anyone written to GW for clarification? :P

_________________
"All who surrender will be enslaved; whoever does not surrender but opposes with struggle and dissension, shall be annihilated."


Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:03 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Posts: 3859
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Post 
Sounds like a good question for GW to clear up.

_________________
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze


Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:05 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:10 pm
Posts: 1378
Location: Norway
Post 
Well, I guess I have to read these rules a bit closer again, but does a unit become stubborn exactly when a stubborn character joins? The ETC has ruled that the unit gets stubborn once they join, however what actually is the right ways about it.

Edit: Reading the rules over again, it does say "If a stubborn character joins..." so, he is stubborn when he joins, but looses the "khainite unit" when he does as well.

So, what's first, the chicken or the egg? ;)

_________________
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10


Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:07 pm
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Post 
@Callison
I understand where you are coming from. And you argue well for your point of view.

However there is a fatal flaw in your reasoning.
It has been demonstrated time and time again that the WHFB rules have not been written with enough clarity and accuracy for such a close reading of the rules to provide any solid info.

This line of reasoning is what leads to for instance the "No overrun after crumbling", or the "Sword of Hoeth to always wound with magic missiles" and numerous other faulty discussions all based on an extremely strict reading of the BRB. And as normal with humans when faced with too little and inconsistant information we extrapolate and find meaning where non exist in the first place.

Regarding the Assasin stubborn issue. We cannot find a clear answer in the rulebook. And we can only hope that GW prints a FAQ to gain an official ruling.

Next best things is the FAQs from the international ETC tournament, where the best players from a very large part of the warhammer population is assembled each year.

They have indeed answered this question, and it is a clear YES. Assasins do make units stubborn if within 12" of a CoB.

This ruling is of course not from GW, and individual tournament organizers may rule differently, but we can find no clear answer in the rulebook.

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:10 pm
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 987
Post 
It appears the controversy isn't over 'do stubborn charcters grant stubborn to their unit', it's over 'does a character in a unit loose their special rule because they are in a unit that doesn't share it.'

So... show me another example where a character joining a unit looses a special rule WITHOUT that loss being mentioned specifically in said special rule.


Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:46 pm
Profile
Assassin

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 542
Location: belgium
Post 
thats not what its about either.

character alone = a unit with the khainite special rule.

character in a unit = a character with the khainite special rule=/= a unit with the khainite special rule.

the cauldron only gives stubborn to UNITS with the khainite special rule.

RAW you get no stubborn. The assassin is not a unit when he is in a unit, and by result is not stubborn(same for death hag)



i'd also like to point out that ETC rules are neither perfect nor completely correct. They strive to do a tournament which with balanced army's. This can influence a choice in their Faq and i believe there are points where their Faq goes against GW's Faq (i do need to check that again to be sure)


Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:03 pm
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 987
Post 
So... character = unit

Character in unit =/= unit.

So (s)he looses the Kahinite rule?

I'm going to need a rules cite on that one.


Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:23 pm
Profile
Assassin

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 542
Location: belgium
Post 
no no, stop it. the character is still khainite
the unit he joined is not. neither is the character himself a unit, if he joined a unit.

the cauldron only gives stubborn to khainite UNITS.

if the cauldron would give stubborn to khainite models, then it would work. but it doesn't. the assassin, when joining a unit is still khainite but is no longer a unit but a part of a unit. And this unit is not khainite. which means the cauldron does not make this combined unit stubborn. NOBODY loses a special rule.
The khainite special rule does not say he gets stubborn when within 12" of a cauldron. THe cauldron itself gives this buff only to khainite UNITS.
A assassin in a unit is not a unit onto itself and a unit containing a assassin is not a khainite unit.


Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:35 pm
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 987
Post 
So now we're nitpicking as to when a character looses his status as a unit?

Okay, I'm tabling this discussion until we hear officially from GW. Because I can't see your point of view, and you obviously don't see mine either, and this is going to devolve into something less civil before too much longer.


Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:12 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
I do agree it is total nitpicking, based on a very litteral reading of rules with as little interpretation as possible.
However, this is what it takes when discussing RAW.

This is why I suggested to agree about a house rule instead. Like ETC do with their own house rules.

Now if you face an opponent who requires the strict application of rules, the likely result will be that 'sass and DH cannot make ordinary units stubborn.


@ Scyloc
I did not know the answer before reading the rules.
I just discovered that it is possible to demonstrate, with only GW official rules, that assassins and DH do not transfer stubborn to the unit they join.
It is not possible to demonstrate the opposite with only GW official rules (until they FAQ differently).

Former discussions show that RAI (rules as intended) make often more sense than RAW, however it is very difficult to find an agreement over RAI while it is often possible to find an agreement over RAW.
This is why if you cannot agree on a RAI with your opponent, RAW prevails.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:48 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software