Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:07 pm



Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Somewhat fed up with dreaded 13th...help... 
Author Message
Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:55 pm
Posts: 57
Location: England
Ok gents, bit of a rules query for you. I have been playing against skaven more than one would wish of late, and although I have been doing well, my level 4 and her bunker of dagger-fuel gimps have been turned into rats in almost every game. This has not prevented me winning a game where this happens, but...well...I would rather it didn't keep happening.
So, my question is thus; if I put my supreme lady on a dark steed (with pendant to bounce cannon balls) she would be safe from this very silly spell, but;
1) would she still be able to stab with sac dagger?
2) the unit is now a "combined unit", no longer simply "infantry", so is the unit still effected by dreaded thirteenth?

Hoping you can shed some light on this for me, many thanks.


Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:38 pm
Profile
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Post 
1) Nothing in the rules for Sac Dagger prevent her from using it while mounted, so yes you can use it.

2) Second question requires a review of the Skaven FAQ on the GW website. From page 8 of the FAQ (damn they did a poor job on that book) there are 2 relevant questions:


Q: Can I target a unit with The Curse of the Horned Rat
comprised of infantry and non-infantry models? (p79)
A: No, unless all of the non-infantry models are characters.
Such units are unique units and as such cannot be targeted by
The Curse of the Horned Rat. Note that adding a character to a
unit of a different troop type will not make that unit unique, it’s
troop type will be unchanged.

So following this, the unit is still a valid target, but ...


Q: How are casualties from The Curse of the Horned Rat
distributed? What if there are characters in the unit, of troop type
infantry or otherwise? (p79)
A: Compare the result of the 4D6 roll to the number of
infantry models in the unit. If the result is equal to or larger
than the number of infantry models (including any characters
that are infantry) then remove all of the infantry models and
replace the unit with an equal number of Clanrats. Any noninfantry
models left must be placed by the controlling player 1”
away from the newly formed unit, facing in any direction. If the
result is less than the number of infantry models in the result
then the casualties will be distributed as hits from shooting.

If the Sorceress is mounted, at least she doesn't get killed by the spell when the unit evaporates.

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:49 pm
Profile WWW
Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:55 pm
Posts: 57
Location: England
Post 
Top stuff, thank you for that Dyvim. I would have checked the faq myself but just finished the post as I was dashing out the door to work :arrow:
Skaven are quite prevailent at tournaments, so I think I will experiment with mounting her on a dark steed, but keeping her in the bunker...hmm. Not only will this prevent her from the inglorious fate of being turned into a rat, it will also mean that should the bunker run into trouble, she can very rapidly "re-deploy" (leg it!!!).


Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:28 pm
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:22 pm
Posts: 154
Post 
What lore do you use? You could just remain at the back of the board and use boosted versions of spells which would be easier with the dagger.

_________________
Member of The Channel 4 News Team - We're kind of big deals

Follow me on Twitter @tomcowlin


Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:59 am
Profile
Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:55 pm
Posts: 57
Location: England
Post 
Usually run shadow Tom, and my tactics did involve just keeping the bunker out of range. However, my opponent swiftly came to find my magic phase to be so upsetting that he was forced to push his grey seer into range of 13th. This has more than once resulted in the black guard breaking through his lines and murdering the seer and his bunker of plebs, which was some consolation :)
All in all I feel that the rats are a fairly good match up for Druchii, but I am just shocked at the raw power of their magic phase :shock:
Whoever wrote that particular book was smoking the crack pipe. You are swap any spell out for 13th? 8) really?!
There really isn't a single spell that want going off. Plague? no thanks! Wither? urrgghh....
Very funny stuff indeed.


Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:46 am
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 am
Posts: 302
Location: Australia
Post 
Hi guys I'm new to this forum just started playing Dark Elves.

My previous army was Skaven so thought I would add my bit on the Dreaded 13TH.

When I use Skaven I will always take at least 1 Grey Seer and almost always will default 1 spell to the Dreaded 13th, from a Skaven point of view this is one of the best spells the Ratties have access to.

Problems with the 13th

1. Firstly it is 25 to cast' so the Skaven player will need to use 6 dice to cast it using a Level 4 Seer. This means there is a 55% chance of the Skaven player casting it each turn if they have 6 dice (including the extra D3 Warpstone tokens). The 55% chance of casting it on 6 dice does not include the chances of double 6ing the spell. It is also a nice option for Skaven to take the Power Scroll which halves the casting value of the 13th making it 13 to cast for 1 turn.

2. The 13th does 4D6 damage to an infantry unit (this on average would be 14 dead Dark Elves). So as a Rat player I tend to soften up a unit first then 13th it into Clan Rats to finish it off.

3. The 13th is more effective vs. WoC and other expensive infantry than other than Dark Elf one's (but watch out for your Black Guard and Executioners).


How to deal with the 13th?

1. Keep your Dark Elf foot characters in big units eg: Lvl 4 Supreme Sorceress with the Sac Dagger in a big unit of Warriors. Alternatively jump your Mages out of their bunkers when they get too small, and keep the Mage within 3"s of the bunker for a 4+ Look Out Sir roll.

2. Kill the Grey Seer ASAP (this will be a bonus if the Seer is the Rat General as well, because it will gain you extra victory points and ruin the Rats Leadership Bubble).

3. The Screaming Bell (Grey Seer mount) seems to have become popular in the Rat Meta Game usually with the Storm Banner to reduce shooting at the Bell on the first turn or 2. Pit of Shades at the Grey Seer may be good in this instance (other direct damage spells may be stopped by the Bells MR combined with the Seers Ward Save). When the Storm Banner wears off shoot the Seer off the Bell to wreck the Skaven Magic phase. RBT's, Crossbows, Dark Riders and Shades will do this quite quickly (even with the Seers Ward Save).

4. If the Seer is on foot (in a Clan Rat or similar bunker) then charging the Seers unit might work directing as many attacks as possible at the Seer. Even a suicide charge of Harpies may do this job if they get lucky.

5. Keep expensive infantry units away from the Grey Seer. So if the Ratties have a Bell it will usually be in the center of the Army as a leadership Bubble. In this instance keeping the Blackguard out on the flank over 24"s from the Grey Seer on a Bell. Watch out for Skitterleaping Seers on foot, however if the Skaven player tries this they will likely lose their Seer unless it is late in the game..


Last edited by Lorddrittz on Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:21 am, edited 4 times in total.



Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:26 am
Profile
Highborn

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:06 pm
Posts: 603
Location: the Netherlands
Post 
Very nice advice LordDrittz...
I can offer one more advice to that.... The Ring of Hothek on a unit champion. This will very often make a Seer dread casting the 13th anywhere near that unit. (you could ofc use the Ring of Hothek on a pegasus master)

I'm not entirely convinced that using large units is a good idea when fighting Skaven....yes..is offers protection against the 13th...but is also more vulnerable to warmachines like the warp lightning cannon.


Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:20 pm
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 am
Posts: 302
Location: Australia
Post 
I use a DE Warrior unit for my Supreme Sorceress bunker so if the rats shoot at this then they aren't shooting at my more expensive troops :D

_________________
Dark Elf Battles

Win/Draw/Loss
10 : 1 : 4 7th Ed Codex


Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:24 am
Profile
Highborn

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:06 pm
Posts: 603
Location: the Netherlands
Post 
I also use spearman for bunker and sometimes a bit more...
Last time i played against Skaven 1 round of shooting transformed a unit of 40 strong spearman into a unit of 20 odd..
Will have to admit that the rounds he spend shooting at that unit afterwards we mostly wasted.


Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:14 am
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 am
Posts: 302
Location: Australia
Post 
Well 6pt Warriors are the cheapest troops we have better than losing more expensive infantry.

_________________
Dark Elf Battles

Win/Draw/Loss
10 : 1 : 4 7th Ed Codex


Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:38 am
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3716
Location: Baltimore
Post 
I think the recommendations for using the warrior unit as dagger fuel missed the first of the OP's points about having done this previously and had them all turned to rats. The key if you're going to go down this route is to ensure sufficient numbers: probably 50 or more. Such a unit should take at least a couple of turns of concentrated missile and magic attacks before the SS becomes at risk from the 13th.

The downside of using dark riders as sacrificial dagger fuel is that you're dropping between 17 and 22 points everytime you use it. That's 3 to 4 times more expensive than it would cost you to do it with warriors. In all honesty, I think if you are going down that route you would be better off giving her a darkstar cloak for the auto +1 PD it'd give her each turn, rather than the dagger.

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:06 am
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 am
Posts: 302
Location: Australia
Post 
The maximum damage the 13th can do is 24 wounds 4d6, so as long as the bunker is 30+ it should be ok.

_________________
Dark Elf Battles

Win/Draw/Loss
10 : 1 : 4 7th Ed Codex


Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:10 am
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3716
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Unless he whittles the unit down through other means (e.g. magic or missiles, or even casting the 13th at the unit two turns in a row...)

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:41 am
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 am
Posts: 302
Location: Australia
Post 
Ye once the bunker gets below 25 then the Supreme Sorceress should think about either
1. jumping to a new bunker
2. Moving out and getting the 4+ look Out Sir within 3"s of an infantry unit or
3. maybe even Smoke and Mirrors to be replaced by a Lvl 1 or 2.

_________________
Dark Elf Battles

Win/Draw/Loss
10 : 1 : 4 7th Ed Codex


Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:54 pm
Profile
Warrior

Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:46 pm
Posts: 69
Post 
well i could be wrong but:

in my recent games against skaven a player told me that the 13th can only be cast on infantry units. as you will put youre ss on a steed the unit has 2 types of models ( infantry and mounted ) thus it will get the unit type of unigue. this will prevent the skaven player from casting 13 on you poor sac dagger fuel.

this type comes from skinks having a crox along in their unit.
infantry + monstrous beast makes a unit unigue. thought it to be same with a mounted model.

just my 2 cents


Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:32 pm
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:27 am
Posts: 302
Location: Australia
Post 
The problem with mounting your Sorceress is that she can then be sniped by WLC's (Warplightning Cannons) as she will no longer get a Lookout Sir.

So if mounting her give her a Ward Save or the PoK.

_________________
Dark Elf Battles

Win/Draw/Loss
10 : 1 : 4 7th Ed Codex


Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:50 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 16 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software