Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:56 am



Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Lore of Death - a tribute 
Author Message
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
1) Introduction

Edit: I failed to communicate what I tried to first time around, so I have decided to give the topic more focus - Happy holidays and happy hunting!

The key to most of the spells in the lore of death is positioning, either for range, casting ease or efficiency (purple sun pathway, soulblight bubble).

Dark Elves are excellent users of this lore because of our potential for mobile casters. The focus familiar adds considerable advantage in the magic phase while not being immediately obvious - Lore of death snipe spells is highly scalable if you can get within 12". There are different ways you can use the lore of Death differently.

2) GRIM REAPER - type

e.g. Lv.4 Supreme Sorceress - Pendant of Khaeleth, Focus Familiar, Dark Steed
This type is all about the sniper spells. If you can't cast one of these, it is likely that every single character in the opponent's army is dead. The other spells in the lore can be game-changing, but are all ultimately situational. Before I go any further, I feel I should give some hard data on what you can gain from this build. I am listing my assumptions below, as an example of what you might do with all 3 sniper spells.

Assumptions:
You are casting for 5 turns in an average game. - Observed
You can keep within 18" of an intended target. - Observed
Your targets have on average S4 T4 Ld 9. - Pessimistic
50% chance of your opponent dispelling- Pessimistic
(The BIG one - I'll explain more) Cast Spirit Leech and Caress of Laniph on 2 dice (97.2% chance to cast) and Fate of Bjuna on 4 dice (94.6% ctc) each turn. - Optimistic, but situational spells can be very powerful too

Damage:
Spirit Leech: 0.945 wounds vs Ld9
Method: There are 36 equally likely outcomes. 5 outcomes cause one wound and this decreases till 1 outcome causes 5 wounds. Total wounds of 36 castings = (5x1) + (4x2) + (3x3) + (2x4) + (1x5) = 35 wounds. Average damage therefore = 0.972 (ctc) x 35/36 (damage/casting) = 0.945 wounds, though this increases dramatically as target's Ld decreases.

Caress of Laniph: 1.512 wounds vs S4
Method: Total hits from 36 castings = (4x1) + (5x2) + (6x3) + (5x4) + (4x5) + (3x6) + (2x7) + (1x8) = 112 hits. 50% chance to wound, so average damage = 0.972 x 56/36 = 1.512 wounds

Fate of Bjuna: 2.453 vs T4
Method: Total hits from 36 castings = (4x1) + (5x2) + (6x3) + (5x4) + (4x5) + (3x6) + (2x7) + (1x8) = 112 hits. 5/6 chance to wound, so average damage = 0.946 x 112/36 x 5/6 = 2.453 wounds

This is where it gets tricky. In total, 4.936 theoretical wounds can be inflicted each turn, but of course your opponent has a dispel phase. Assuming 50% of spells are dispelled you are still inflicting 12.341 wounds every game. Even after a 4+ ward this is enough to end 2 lords. Now in real games, your opponents will contain juicy targets such as mages, low ld beasties and no save BSBs. These jack up the wound totals and generate LARGE numbers of power dice. Your opponents become useless at dispelling, using pathetic numbers of dice with no bonus.

Now the assumptions matter. No games really involve only these three spells, but that isn't a bad thing. You are guaranteed at least 2 of the three, and I have demonstrated that many wounds are likely to be inflicted even against tough, protected characters over the course of a game.

Why doesn't this work with every death mage?
Mobility. By getting close range we get to cast spirit leech and caress of laniph at effectively power scroll casting values. Power of Darkness and the lore attribute allow us huge numbers of power dice, such that even with the weakest winds of magic you don't have to stop casting until you are depleted.





3) Spell Selection

The spells you want depend entirely on characters/beasties in the army you are facing, you will have to analyse for yourselves which spells are most appropriate. You can do rough calculations in your head to decide roughly how many wounds each of the direct damage spells would inflict on the targets before you.

4) Dice Distribution

Aim to use enough dice for minimum a 90% casting chance, as you need a high chance of casting to maintain a stream of magic, check the casting probability sheet in DRAICH. Try riskier, higher-cast spells towards the end of the phase, miscasts are unlikely.

There are few character builds that can withstand a sustained barrage, eventually you'll get that high (5+) wound hit or he'll fail some ward saves.

5) Some Tricks

Fate of Bjuna survivor? Try doom and darkness, at max Ld 7 that stupidity test is much more daunting, and takes out a whole unit for a turn.

Check the ld values of the good single models in the army, with Ld9 we can do horrendous things with spirit leech and a Ld3 beastie.

Small purple suns are pretty good. They kill nearly as much as they are targetted along an optimal line and can be cast reliably on 5 dice instead of 8!


Last edited by Burizan on Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:34 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:56 pm
Posts: 1065
Location: Poland
Post 
I must generally disagree the main idea behind your post.
Thou Death lore is amazing, it's not for the sniper spell's. The spell's that will win you your games, are Doom and Darkness, purple sun (preferably small) and soulblight (best in big version).

Reasons: You cant rely on the sniper spell's, spirit leech even after being cast, you need to roll off to get wound in, Caress need a good roll on 2d6 and then a few good 4+ roll's, while Bunja has short range and again is dicey. And then you have MR and ward saves.

Why doom and darkness is the best spell in the lore?
outstanding range, 24" at basic level, and 48" at extended.
Low casting value 10+ and 13+.
there is virtually no protection vs it. It helps to get rid of most unit's in the game, either by making it brake faster or flee/panic, makes it difficult to rally unit's. And it's a RIP.

Small purple sun
small casting value, doesn't care about friendly model's, can be used offensively and defensively. uses a template and can singlehanded win you games.

Soulblight
Especially big version is just wrong, all unit's with in 24" lose 1 S and T, at a casting value of 18+, game winning, and again not much your opponent can do about it. Helps you dish out damage in the shooting phase and win combats. but the thing to remember is the outrages range of the spell, a 48" bubble :shock: of lowering S and T of your opponents units.

while sniper spells are nice to cast they are very dicey and cant really depend upon them.

_________________
Also known as Kanadian
Image
Image


Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:02 pm
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
Post 
I ask you to look at the lore of death in a different way, not as something to support your army but as a flexible weapon in it's own right.

I'm thoroughly aware that there is little number-crunching in my post but if I didn't already know it worked for me I wouldn't mention it. I would recommend giving the direct damage spells a try, I think you would be pleasantly surprised.

Doom and darkness is fun, don't get me wrong, but the direct damage spells can mean -reroll or -Ld if you kill the general or BSB, and you'd be surprised how often characters have absolutely no protection. Sometimes you get 4+ wards, or even better with MR, but you can still smash through it if you have to. It's not uncommon for me to spend 2 turns reducing a character to one wound only to inflict 5 more in the final hit.

As I said before you cannot rely on a single casting of these spells to kill, but if you keep them coming then some of them will get through, some of them will wound, netting you more power dice. Kill their mage and they lose the dispel bonus and the rest of their characters die quicker.

You are right to point out that these spells are unpredictable, but this works both ways. You can get extremely high and extremely low rolls, which psychologically unhinges your opponent into making irrational dispel decisions. For 2 power dice and some positioning you can gamble for the destruction of the biggest threat to your line and your opponent knows it.


Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:31 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:56 pm
Posts: 1065
Location: Poland
Post 
I've been using the Death lore constantly for about a year, average over 1-2 games a week. and direct damage spell's IMO are inferior to the rest, for the simple reason, pit and D&D are game changers.

_________________
Also known as Kanadian
Image
Image


Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:33 pm
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
Post 
I gave this thread a heavy edit - added some heavy number crunching so let me know if I messed any of it up. I wish I remembered enough stats to do it the quick way!

Anyway, try her out for a few games and let me know what you think. Just bare in mind that if you build your army according to her strength then you will nearly always win and nobody will have any fun (I did this in a tournament).


Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:16 pm
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Post 
Hi there Burizan,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

My guess would be that the dispute that you and KillerK has regarding the usefulness of the "sniper"-spells, has a lot to do with the metagame you each play in.

I myself play in a very competative environment where skilled opponents most often protect their juicy targets via MR or similar. Probably much like KillerK. Consequently im not that big of a fan of the sniper spells, because they are almost useless against some/most of the opponents that i face.

I would expect that you play in another environment where opponent often have unprotected characters and/or other targets, and in that metagame im sure snipes are very potent.

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:23 pm
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3717
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Thanks for the really interesting write up. I've not used death ever yet, so this will give some definite food for thought :) Always useful to think about new angles, especially for magic. Which armies have proved your easiest victims for death magic to date? Which have been hardest to hurt with it?

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:48 pm
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
Post 
@Syloc: Often armies will protect a character or two, but short of a Teclis World Dragon bunker you can usually tear through mage/BSB if you solve the positioning issue.

I think KillerK misjudged my post, and quite rightly as the first time round it was crap. I've taken this to tournaments as well as my local and I don't believe the metagame is as big as suggested.
Firstly proximity and positioning allows sniper spells to actually cast at the vulnerable targets - there is simply no escape from 12" + 6" focus familiar + 18" move.
Secondary advantage derives from reducing casting values. Casting 2 potential game changers 97.2% of the time on 2 dice opens up many possibilities, and just being ABLE to cast fate of bjuna at anything you like is enough to terrify your opponent.


@Red: I'm glad your interested, I actually massacred my opponent using the Exec-integrated list you inspired earlier this evening, though as I was against VCs he didn't really have a chance! (I played TERRIBLY)

The only game I have used her and lost was against Teclis. First turn I moved forward and 10 dice cast fate of Bjuna on him, getting IF. I promptly roll double 1, scoring no wounds and lose the all three sniper spells. Annoyingly I could have actually used Doom and Darkness to make him more vulnerable to that Bjuna-stupidity, which I forgot to even enforce. I still nearly won the game, but I made 2 mistakes on turn 4, which is fatal with my setup. Still he was the most obnoxious RAW-when-it-suits-him opponent I have ever played.

Skaven, Empire, all the Elves, brets, Vampires, lizardmen, ogres, dwarves, orcs, TK go down easily, they are vulnerable to the sniping and/or you get to place a purple sun all the way down their line without even trying. Normally I'd be exaggerating, but then again I wouldn't have bothered to post this if it wasn't game-breaking powerful (I am really lazy).

Certain armies will have some characters that aren't worth casting any spell at, for example some WoC/Daemon lists. However there is ALWAYS something useful you can do - people forget that it is a "single model" not a "single character". Creative uses make this spell great - have you ever missed VPs for a key unit by 1 model?


I seem to recall you favour metal? I've been thinking recently about combining metal with her - Gehenna's might finally become awesome if used with the sniping lore :lol:


Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:00 pm
Profile
Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:25 am
Posts: 14
Post 
why steed and not peg?


Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:09 am
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Post 
@Burizan
Im happy for you that your local tournaments and metagame presents lots of sniper targets.
In which country do you play btw?

But i can tell you that things are quite different in other parts of the world.

Dont get me wrong. Death magic is a great lore. Especially due to soulblight, D&D and Purple Sun.
But sniper spells are easy to counter in list building, and most skilled players will have a way to protect their important characters. Making Death sniping less desirable in the tough matches where you face a really good opponent.

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:53 pm
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
Post 
@Romes: Do as you like, they are both solid choices.

I found that she more vulnerable on a peg to shooting & magic missiles, so I run her with 5 dark riders to keep her safe. They move virtually the same: impossible to catch by melee troops, so I find the extra 32 points can be spent better elsewhere.

@Syloc: I play in the UK, and play tournaments up in Nottingham at Warhammer World. Most opponents have 4+/3+ ward saves vs magic on their lord choices, and 5+ or nothing on their heroes. I don't play the same people often enough that they tailor against me, though when they do it doesn't make a difference.

There are ways to protect important characters, but not every single character can be given 2+ ward save/immunity without using a bunker, and even if they are there will be targets that can't be protected, e.g. Terrorgheist, steam tank....

In my metagame a few minor characters are unprotected, but the ones who are become very easy kills. Those with moderate protection survive "normal death magic", but not the overdrive which this particular setup allows. Characters with 2+ ward save / immunity to magic will have spent so much protecting themselves that they have other weaknesses my army can exploit, while there will always be some target I can snipe which can't choose protection.

I'd be keen to know what sort of armies you mean - I don't understand how characters can be better protected than this without being simply torn apart by a hydra, elite infantry or shooting.


Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:47 pm
Profile
Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:25 am
Posts: 14
Post 
hmm..

I was debating which would be more effective.

Peg has +1 toughness, flying, flying mainly allows you to go over units.

I was thinking steed because its a smaller model so easier to put behind terrain and use focus familiar.

I had also thought about steed with dark riders... but they seem very expensive for hitpoint sacks. More so with xbows.

I suppose you could run it with riders and deploy together or seperate depending on opponent.

Rules question - a sorc on a dark steed gets vanguard movement right? Whether or not in dark riders?


Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:17 am
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Post 
@Burizan
An example close to home.
Pretty std DE list
Lv4+lv2 (the lv4 has MR2-3)
CoB BSB
Peg Master with PoK

When he realizes he is facing a death magic army. He deployes his Peg in the spearman unit with the lv4+2 and CoB gives 5++ ward to the spearmen for a 3/2 ward save on every character.
In turn 2 or 3 he charges the Peg master out of the bunker placed behind his own forces.

All you basically need is a single MR2/3 character. Those 30/45 points is not a large enough investment to weaken him significantly in other areas.

Deathstars are usually well protected vs any magic.

Even if facing a general who somehow decided to risk it, and not have an easy answer vs death magic, he would rush to engage in CC by turn2 leaving you unable to snipe more than a turn or 2.

Death magic is still a strong lore. My point is simply that in my experience, the sniping part of the death lore is not quite as strong as you depict it. Its relatively easy to counter.

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:20 pm
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3717
Location: Baltimore
Post 
@Burizan: Glad my article was of use :) and thanks for the run down of armies that the lore of death works well against and those it isn't so useful against. The nuance of being able to use the spells against a single creature rather than a charaacter is one I hadn't thought of but seems really handy, particularly given the ongoing increase in big monsters for most armies.

Have you had any success using the sniping elements of lore of death with a level 2 sorceress or is it one that really needs a level 4 to work effectively?

@Scyloc: Within my gaming group magic resistance items are usually seen as a weak choice. That's in part because MR doesn't protect against any of the #6 killer spells like Dwellers below, final transmutation, etc, nor does it help aganst hexes such as the withering or buffs such as flesh to stone. It's also because magic resistance items usually take up talisman magic item slots, which means that a mage will often have to give up having a ward save, leaving them basically unprotected against non-spell attacks. The Cauldron can indeed give a sorceress and her unit a 5+ ward save, but that's a unique option only available to dark elves and many other races don't have a ranged ward save buffing option of that kind.

Consequently I could see the sniping spells being very helpful (particularly against enemy level 2 mages, who often come equipped with no save whatsoever). I guess it must be more common in Denmark for a player to bring MR to the table, but certainly in my part of the UK I'd be very surprised to see any MR being fielded at all. I think your point is accurate in that it is theoretically possible for an army build to be made all but immune to death magic, but as lists are built prior to seeing what lore your opponent is taking and magic resistance is so limited in its utility these days, in real terms I think many armies would leave it behind, which would make death magic sniping spells a lot more potent.

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:57 am
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Kittenmarsh
Post 
If you think in contexts of how many of the spells work and stack, it has solid benefits.

If you combine with Fire (for long range), you have a SOLID and terrifying Shooting portion of your army. Why? Fire's magic (long range, and often hitting S4) synergy is HIGH with Soulblight, Doom and Darkness (Burning head at -3 Ld? YES PLEASE lol). But also covers quite a bit of offence in general.


They have to decide which does more damage and which mage to target first- the one that can target SPECIFIC units and hex the rest or the one that BLASTS units, and can cause many tactical hiccups. (this is a hypothetical based on which spells you actually ROLL that game)

It's an easy choice for some armies not for all.

the area I've had some difficulty putting it together is with Metal or Dark. Dark/ Death hits INSANELY hard, but is spotty (about a 50/50 success rate for me) and Metal has a lot of good offence and defence, but seems to only work together when you layer all the Hexes on one unit at a time, which can be costly if you're not careful.

the Hex'ing with Shadow then anything from Death is beyond Awesome. It may be the actual reason they're next to each other in the book. This is given that You prefer attacking the Initiative over anything else as we have a strength there. recall that against the I armies, many key points DON'T have great I, so aim accordingly. Treeman or dryad wall is more likely to be hurt than say Glade Riders. It's main weakness is the General who MUST know how to hit things with his army- You can drop their I for Pit of Shades and Purple Sun, but having the S and T of a unit that either YOU may charge or they may charge and that causes them to stop and you take that opportunity is SO fun.

_________________
Oderint dum Metuant.


Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:48 am
Profile WWW
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Post 
Red & Burizan
If you go through the lists at ETC2012 33-50% of the lists are well equipped to handle death magic sniping.

UK is well known for little or no comp preference. Most other countries play with moderate comp, and some with heavy comp (like DK). Some of the first things to comp is usually the LOS on the big #6 spells.

I am sure death magic sniping works wonders in the metagame that you are facing, and if i were to play under similar circumstances im sure i would find it equally effective.

My points is that in other gaming communities, that is not necessarily the case.

Therefore i believe it is important to state that the effectiveness of death magic sniping is not a universal truth.


You have to remember that the metagame is always adapting. If Death magic sniping is as effective as you state it is in your local metagame, more and more will start to bring it to the table. Eventually people will get tired of loosing their characters, and will start to adapt their lists to include some form of protection, or at least a strategy to handle death sniping heavy armies. While it is effective use it all you can.

And that is exactly what happened in DK. If you go back to the start of 8th ed, there was much focus on ld10 death sniping. Subsequently people started to ask them selves how to handle a death sniping list when building lists for tournaments. Hence death sniping is not that strong in DK anymore, because people adapted to the threat.

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:53 pm
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
Post 
@Romes: No vanguard unfortunately, you lose fast cav by joining dark riders. In my experience the benefits of a dark steed outweigh the benefits of a pegasus, though personally I use 3-4 units of dark riders when I am using my Grim Reaper. This way you can swap her between units, seperate mid game, or go completely rogue base on your opponent. Either way I wouldn't view them as hitpoint sacks, they are rarely wiped out completely and can mess up your opponent's plans.

@Red: I'm really tempted to run a lv.2 on peg with Tome of Furion and a Pendant, but the maths doesn't look so good. With a level 4 the 6+/7+ casts are 97.2% with 2 dice, so you don't miscast unnecessarily and you use dice very efficiently Not only is it harder to get closer (within 12" rather than 18") but you still need 3 dice, which won't even guarantee the desired result. It's worth a shot though, I intend to try it but if you get there first I'd love to hear the result.
War machines/chariots are usually good targets for caress/ spirit leech too. When I first tried her, I didn't expect the endless barrels of fish for me to shoot, it was only after she pretty consistently scored 450-700 VPs a game I realised. Honestly using it a few times changed the way I view the game, on paper it's difficult to justify, some won't believe it till they see it though.

@Syloc: Honestly I don't see the problem, it might handle "old school" long range death magic but very few models can be equipped to fight what I suggest.
If i had first turn I might barrage @ the lv.4 aiming to open the lot. If not start with the Cauldron: I would use purple sun or caress on the cauldron itself (2d6-0 hits or autodeath) or just snipe the death hag and suddenly you are down to a maximum 5+/4+ ward save, and even that is provided you keep all your characters together. I can throw in some harpies, shades, dark riders, witch elves, basically anything can rip apart a sorceress general with no ward save. Alternatively I could use a hydra breath or two to clear the spearmen and possibly inflict some damage directly to the characters, and then they're alone again very fast.
As for "engage it in close combat" idea, it's not very realistic against a capable general. It has never happened to me, and I can be pretty dopey at times. If I can't escape your forward arc/range then I can certainly hide behind a unit that a single pegasus can't penetrate, or just flee with my dark rider bunker, rally on a 10 or under and blast the defenseless peg master out of the game.

In my experience the potential restrictions imposed can often unbalance the game more than balance it, I have seen competent generals win with pretty much any army. I don't think its reasonable to attack my ideas based on what are effectively "house rules", you could do so to pretty much any concept. Sure, opponents can tailor their lists, or "adapt" against me, but very few armies have the capability to do that without significantly weakening themselves against the other 82.6% of my army, and if they do so I can just pick different spells.

My entire point is as you say death magic sniping is not universally effective. Certain units have weaknesses vs particular snipes, I'm not asking you to put square pegs in round holes, just to give yourself greater access to holes and more pegs by using my setup. I think we are agreed that a typical death mage, perhaps on foot, can be easily countered. Continuing the analogy adding Ld 10 (while a little dirty imo) is just expending more points in trying to squeeze the wrong peg through the wrong hole.

@L1qwi1d: I've been torn between fire and metal, and opted for metal with a ruby ring of ruin as my backup mage, as I reckon metal most appropriately counters the limitations of my brand of Death, but I'll see how it goes. While your points are generally true, I run a somewhat unconventional list. I haven't used Shadow in a while due to a long binge on it, but I should work a lv.4 sac dag into a larger game - the potential is insane!


Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:15 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 5:56 am
Posts: 2261
Location: Flying my manticore 'Bloodmaw', looking for prey.
Post 
I'm not a huge fan of caress or bjuna but I have had a fair bit of success with my lvl2 pegasissy using spirit leech. It has done next to nothing vs characters but it's a very handy tool vs monsters, monsterous cav and war machines. Much better than almost any other ranged option I have.

_________________
ImageImage
http://urialsulla.mybrute.com


Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:08 pm
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Kittenmarsh
Post 
Metal is ok with a 2. Death is pretty good with a 2. Metal with a 4 and Death with a 2 may need to be tried...

_________________
Oderint dum Metuant.


Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:37 am
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Posts: 3859
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Post 
Sorry for bringing this back up... I've been giving the sniping some thought. I have never used it, so it's all theoretical for me.

Actually, I've been thinking how it can be countered (trying to build in that safety myself). I try to build such "come now, that's easy to do" resistance in my army and .. well.. I just don't know how to. It almost makes me mortally afraid of a Death mage.

MR 3+ and 4+ are tossed about in this discussion like they're handed out for free. How does one get that? There's only a few items that grant such, and they cost a lot. The best MR a banner grants (in common magic items) is MR 1. Now, a character might take a 4+ WS and 1 null stone (or something like it).. but it's a heavy cost.
Hero level characters have little points to get heavy protection.

So yes, bunkers with MR might work. But.. spears? If I put a 5+ WS on my spears, then my BGs or more expensive unit are exposed. They get blown away. One could D&D the spears, then fire at it like a mad man and make the unit panic, characters included. Is it reliable? No. But dear lord, the pressure that places on somebody!

A BSB generally can't take both magic items and a magic std. So if they go for protection, they can't get a big banner. If they take the big banner, then they can get sniped.

Few units have MR without some form of buff or banner.. so if somebody makes a big unit with a magical, non protective banner, then death can snipe that standard bearer, can it not? Sure.. It's not as glorious as lol-your-600-point-general-is-dead, but depending on the banner that might be as valuable as a RIP Miasma.

What I'm pointing at is... Death seems to pack a few good spells, and sniping is a valuable part of it. If it can nick away that BSB or that supporting mage, it's a valuable lore to have. If it can't go for characters, then surely taking out a champion or special banner is a nice to have?
I try to picture a unit of 5 dragon princes. Searing doom won't save you. Nor will fire magic. Shadow isn't a sure shot, though it can help. Death can only help a little.. but if it can take out the champion or the standard bearer, it's a good move.

What holds me back from taking the Lore is that it doesn't feel very helpful against Monsters and warmachines like the steamtank who have high T, high S and high Ld. It's a weakness in our army (or mine anyway) and not something we can ignore. How does the Lore help against, say, a steam tank?

_________________
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze


Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:11 pm
Profile WWW
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3717
Location: Baltimore
Post 
+1 to what Daeron says - very thorough :)

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:12 pm
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
Post 
Daeron wrote:
if somebody makes a big unit with a magical, non protective banner, then death can snipe that standard bearer, can it not? Sure.. It's not as glorious as lol-your-600-point-general-is-dead, but depending on the banner that might be as valuable as a RIP Miasma.
- I don't have the book to hand, I'm not sure if you can snipe ordinary standard bearers and musicians (you could be pretty annoying by taking out a Mus - no more swift reform). If you can then this is definitely a potent use!

Daeron wrote:
What holds me back from taking the Lore is that it doesn't feel very helpful against Monsters and warmachines like the steamtank who have high T, high S and high Ld. It's a weakness in our army (or mine anyway) and not something we can ignore. How does the Lore help against, say, a steam tank?
There are many possibilities, depending on the rules (again, no book to hand!) Purple sun has a 50/50 chance of killing outright. You also might be able to snipe the engineer and then spirit leech the tank itself for huge number of wounds.

Edit: In my experience monsters are nearly all low Ld and/or low I. What spells do you normally use to kill monsters? I can't think of a universally effective spells except maybe Infernal Gateway, but even that can suffer from a bad roll.

You are right - a "Grim Reaper" doesn't fit in every list, as it leaves weaknesses that the rest of the army needs to cope with. I found that her strengths are more overwhelming in real games than I had theorised, so I changed the rest of my list to support her and haven't looked back.


Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:12 pm
Profile
Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:54 pm
Posts: 190
Location: see that shadow behind you?? thats where I'm hidden...
Post 
it targets a single model... so it is possible to target a muso (no swift reform :)), or a unit champ (well now that one can't accept your chalenges any more)

_________________
8th edition Dark Elves w/d/l
2/4/3

still getting started, so don't mind that loses, they where sacrificed for the greater good xD


Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:40 am
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Posts: 423
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Post 
Hello everyone.

We all agree that death magic is a great lore. D&D, Soulblight and Purple Sun are excellent spells to include in most DE armies.

However sniper spells are situational and can be great in some specific matchups, and ineffective in others.

I am a bit perplexed as to why you seem to disregard or downplay the many matchups were death magic sniping is not very effective. I am sure you must have faced many of them.

Just to name a few common armies you often face in a tournament:
DE: CoB 5+ ward + MR 2/3 (as previously explained)
HE: Loremasters Cloak or Banner of the World Dragon
Lizzies: Becalming Cogitation (You move within 24" of the Slaan, and with the slaans banehead and inherent ward save your more vulnerable to his spells (maybe death sniping) that he is to yours)
Ogres: Rune Maw Banner on their Gutstar
Brettonia & Empire have easy access to MR though characters
WoC usually have 3+ ward on most characters
TK often field their own hardcore Death Sniping team
VC often show up with well protected deathstar build of some kind
Demons have a blanket ward save on all models and characters

And when facing a reasonably sensible opponent with little sniping protetion, he will press to engage his vulnerable characters/units in any combat, so they cannot get targeted. Again limiting sniper spells potentiel.

When going to a tournament, you need to build your army to face most of these builds, as its generally a bad idea to rely on luck in your matchups. Most likely you will face several of the builds above in a strong tournament.

Death magic Sniping has some good matchups, especially against inexperienced people. Its true that in most matchups, even if your opponents characters are well protected, you will often have other targets who are vulnerable (Ironblasters, warmachines, some monsters), but in most cases you are resorting to shooting sparrows with a cannon.
Better and more efficient options are quite simply available.


This leads to the next point. While Death Magic is a great lore. Shadow is even greater, and without having half of its spells being situational.

And lastly regarding the Grim Reaper build. (Lv4 with PoK, focus familiar on dark steed/pegasus.)
Its a fine build, but a lv4 build with the Sacrificial Dagger is leaps and bounds better.

With that bing said, a lv2 on dark peg with ToF + PoK and Death Magic is an interesting option.
But you have to remember that a character like that is vulnerable to BS shooting and many magic missiles (with low or no str).

_________________
Interesting threads from the past:
BG Executioners Axe List:
Facing Ogres:
Facing WoC:
Effective use of Magic
Tips Using Harpies:


Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:41 am
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Kittenmarsh
Post 
I would say the reason it hasn't been covered is because no one brought it up until now :lol: it's something that has to be integrated.

No one I know say 'oh hey, I've got the Ruby Ring of Ruin, I'm set all game, let's not worry about anything with this character' You weigh out where to put the character, and you try to put him where he'll be effective. That's a GENERAL tactic.

I believe the thread is Death Magic centric so as to find ways to enhance our ability to play with it(and make a Shadow magic thread as well!). If you're running an army with a Deathmage, chances are you're supporting it some way because Death has no Buffs. 90% certain you're packing Shadow or Metal as well (and preferably with a tome since you're gonna NEED it being a glass cannon).

When dealing with those particular units, you're also covering things that DO need to be discussed. How do you tie up the units of TK Archers so you can get a good spell off at that *insert target here*? How WOULD you fight a Lizardmen army if you mainly had Death?

_________________
Oderint dum Metuant.


Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:35 pm
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software