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Druchii.net DE AB FAQ discussions 
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EDIT (17 March 2014):
Druchii.net proposes, in anticipation to GW, a Dark Elf Army Book FAQ!
This FAQ was initiated from discussions collected in the present thread.
Most of the time, D.net choses just to recall and explain RAW, as we have no authority to change rules.
I edited out from the initial post most of the substance, now better written in our FAQ, but I left below some references about RAW interpretations.


EDIT (08 April 2014):
See also a comparison with major FAQs here: [FAQ] FAQ v1.0 Comparison
/EDIT

Notes about this thread.
The present army book has no FAQ yet.
However, there are some cases that have been found, where a strict reading of the rules (referred as Rules As Written, or RAW) brings strange results,
to the point that it seems really to be a loophole resulting into unintended effects (Rules As Intended, RAI).
Worst, there are cases when playing strict RAW is highly likely to infuriate DE opponents, leading them to believe that the DE player is pushing rules lawyering too far.

We should keep in mind "The Most Important Rule", BRB p.2, asking for fair play rather than endless rule discussions,
and "The Spirit of the Game", BRB p.3, recalling that the rules are there just as a framework to create an enjoyable game.
For that reason, I feel that Druchii.net should recommend officially to renounce, in some cases, to what RAW tells, strictly speaking.

However, there are some cases when we face ruthless rule lawyer powergamers. In that case, it is good to know what RAW really say. That's our special deterrence weapon, not meant to be used, but still there in case.

There are also reported below some questions which have been raised because of rule misreading, which found the appropriate answer.

If you have other FAQ requests or suggestions, please add below, or better, start a new thread.

Note on methodology.
I have no authority whatsoever in the matter. These are just RAW analysis and recommendations.
If you're not satisfied with this recommendation, of course, nobody forces you to play that way.
Also, you could comment below, or better, you could start a thread with a poll and ask a revision.

Until there is an official FAQ, I expect all moderators to freely update this thread.

-=-=-

ASF+ASF/ASL: ASF don't stack. See RAW explained in D.net AB FAQ.

Hatred (High Elves): Discussion in Hatred: High Elves, updated thanks to Dwarfs here: Hatred (specific army)

p.36 Assassins.

Magic armour: allowed. Stealth in armour doesn't make sense. However, RAW is clear, as recalls D.net AB faq.

Magic carpet: prevents hiding. RAW clear enough, discussion here: Arabian Carpet and Assassins

Hiding in scouting shades: allowed. 1st turn charge: impossible. See here and here and there.

Shooting KB: does not work. Contrary to common sense, but RAW is clear.

Forbidden poisons and magic weapons: compatible. Discussed here. It could have been a loophole, but RAW is clear.

p.38 & 94 Scourgerunner

Not Fast cavalry (RAW). Debate: Scourgerunner

Stand & shoot, or Slow to Fire? No dispute for RXB. For Harpoon, see unconcluding debate in The Scourgerunner. After stiff debate, D.net decision is to consider the Harpoon "Slow to Fire".

Harpoon shoots at 360° or 90°? D.net decision is 90° measuring from base. RAW is arguable; see The Scourgerunner

Armour save allowed, kills several ranks: careful reading of RAW.

Dragging a monster does not change the direction the monster faces. RAW does not tell to change facing.

How many RXB can shoot? RAW is an obvious loophole: 1 Harpoon and 2 RXB could all three shoot, on the same target (BRB p.39).
D.net FAQ corrects that and says that Harpoon must be handled by one crew, preventing same crew to shoot with his RXB.

p.46 Witchbrew.

A tough issue is what happens when witchbrew is given to a unit of which some models are already frenzied, and some are not. See Witchbrew Question
After stiff debate, D.net concluded that superfrenzy is "all or none" of the unit.

Too strict a reading of RAW would lead to exaggerated conclusions, which are not supported by D.net nor Masters Tourney FAQ
Here are debates about frenzy multiplied, or made eternal: Witch Brew duration

If a witchbrew DH charges out of a unit, RAW, the rest of the unit is no longer authorized to declare charge, despite being technically still frenzied for one more instant.

EDIT: same page, see also WE with flaming attacks and dragonbane gem

p.47 Strength of Khaine
D.net cannot support the strictest reading of RAW, an obvious loophole.
Strictest RAW would let mounts reroll except for stomp/thunderstomp (FAQ p.76), or breath attacks (FAQ p.67). In case of a character riding a monster, it would work only so long as the character is alive. Chariot impacts, spells, shooting except breath attacks and except RBT would reroll. RBT debate here.
As it is obviously a loophole, D.net decided to FAQ that SoK works only for attacks concerned by Murderous Prowess.

SoK allows rerolls for models out of 6" bubble, that's RAW. Even if it is difficult to understand how the aura works at more than 6"!

p.47 Will of Gods
This rule creates very complex issues. D.net tried to stick as much as possible to RAW.
Basically, the only way to make the rule work is to consider that the chariot and the unit it has joined are combined all the time, not only when joining & leaving.
Issues: debated here. Combat reform debated in Cauldron/shrine and combat reforms. Stomp/Thunderstomp debated here: Shrine/COB and stomp/breath in CC
COB/Shrine and Beasts attribute debated here, RAW could be argued either way.
Joining skirmishers was FAQed not possible, despite RAW allowing it for the shrine, while it remained debatable and unclear for the COB. Anyway, the Shrine would not be able to double-march and shoot even if it had been able to join skirmishers.

p.48 Shrine & Medusa: No real issue, just RAW made clear.

p.52 Kharibdyss.
Ld rerolls when the opponent is in range of his BSB cancel out each other.

Feast of Bones has been discussed in Feast of Bones against units and Feast of Bones.
Following too closely RAW leads to something complex and not practical.
D.net FAQ is what is the closest to RAW while being more practical.

p.58 Lokhir Fellheart: Mostly RAW made clear.
However, Lokhir attacking an enemy who is already in a challenge can be debated with a RAW loophole. Here, RAI is clear enough.

p.59 Kouran's armour: RAW has been debated here but seems clear.

p.60 Tullaris special rule: Same issues as for Witchbrew, same conclusions.

p.61 Dark Magic: RAW recalled.

p.62 Magic object Chillblade: RAW recalled: Attacks autowound, does not mean autohit.

p.62 Magic object Cloak of Twilight: RAW recalled.

p.63 Duplicating spells via Tome of Furion: Discussion in Duplicating spells via Tome of Furion
RAW does not really prevent knowing the same spell twice on a wizard thanks to ToF, but that creates problems when casting.
D.net FAQ prohibits it and there's no problem.

Erratum, p.91 Corsair's options.: Some translations errors have been mentioned in Spanish.
The rule is that corsairs must all take either AHW or RHB, but not both, making them effectively 11 pts per model.


FYI, see also New ETC-FAQ (including new Dark Elves)

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Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:48 pm
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Calisson wrote:
p.36 Assassin's poisons and shooting.
Issue: Shooting KB?
RAW: KB poison gives KB to model, not to weapon. KB does not work for assassin's missile weapons.
House rule: the poison can work only if the weapon hits the target. So KB should be available on missile weapons.
Druchii.net official recommendation: Play RAW and pray for an erratum.



BRB, pg 72 on "Killing Blow".
First paragraph: "If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat"
...
Last paragraph: "Unless otherwise specified, Killing Blow applies only to close combat attacks."



Based on this, I conclude:
RAW: it doesn't apply to shooting.
RAI: it doesn't apply to shooting.

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Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:54 pm
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Good initiative, but I would recommend that you remove everything that is not debatable (such as Look out Sir for the CoB).

I also disagree with a few of the recommendations:

Quote:
Issue: Can assassins wear magic armour?
RAW: Yes. Only magic-users may not (for most of them).
House rule: Stealth in armour doesn't make sense.
Druchii.net official recommendation: Use common sense.


This is dead wrong IMO, of course he can have magic armour. This kind of "sense" should get nowhere near a rules FAQ. :) (Also, the new Shadowblade Assassin model is covered neck to toe with armour)

Quote:
p.38 & 94 Scourgerunner's shooting
Issue: What can shoot? What can Stand & shoot?
RAW: 1 Harpoon and 2 RXB are available. All can shoot, but it must be on the same target (BRB p.39). All can Stand & Shoot, because the Harpoon is not slow to fire, contrary to all warmachines.
House rule: One of the crewmembers must handle the harppon! And no bolt thrower may stand & shoot, that seems a loophole.
Druchii.net official recommendation: When shooting with harpoon, one crewmember must not shoot with RXB. Stand & shoot only with RXB.


Agree with shooting a single RXB, but it definitely can stand and shoot with the Harpoon. The Bow of the Seafahrer from the HE-7:th edition book could stand and shoot, and so can the Scourgerunner.

Quote:
p.47 Strength of Khaine
... [snip] ...


Disagree with all of these. The original rule is extremely clear and does not need a FAQ. It might require an Errata if this wasn't the intention, but there is not way to read this rule differently than what is printed.

Quote:
- BRB p.77 May they join skirmishers?
RAW: Certainly yes for the shrine, debatable and unclear for the COB.
House rule: not an issue for movement, as chariots can wheel freely at any time, and skirmishers can reorganize at any time during movement.
Druchii.net official recommendation: May join. Move whole unit as a skirmisher unit.


Agree for the Shrine, but disagree for the CoB. Even if it counts as a Character, it is still definitely a character which is mounted and it is therefore not allowed to join. (Even if the CoB counts as a character, a DH would then be a Character mounted on another Character, which is not impossible in the rules).

Quote:
p.52 Kharibdyss Feast of Bones against R&F.
Issue: What happens if the kharibdyss targets one specific R&F model?
RAW: see Feast of Bones against units.
... snip ...
Druchii.net official recommendation: attacks made with Feast of Bones may never overspill onto another model.


This is the same question as "Does wounds inflicted on models under the influece of the Other Tricksters Shard carry over". The ETC makes a clear FAQ about this (allowing it), and I have never met anyone who would disagree. Therefore, I definitely think that the FoB should carry over as well (until clarified). Saying that you only can kill a single model if you are only in BTB with a single enemy model is opening a whole new can of worms.


Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:27 pm
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Thanks for the write up Calisson. I would have to agree with pretty much everything you say. Play fun play fair and everyone has a more enjoyable game.

Just a couple of things: Under the SOK rules you keep calling it martial prowess and not murderous prowess, is there a spy among us? ;)

with the question of two chariots in the same unit, under will of the gods it clearly states: "Only one model with this special rule may join each unit" same conclusion but wanted to point it out.

I guess the only thing I don't like is the distributing shooting on the cauldron in a unit. Archers are not accurate enough to pick one out of the unit, and I don't think they should be able to choose which one the want to target. And if they can see the cauldron and not the unit they will just lob a bunch of arrows in its direction and would probably hit just as many of the unit.
I know its just a house rule and no one needs to use it but that's just my 2 cents.


Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:23 pm
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Thanks for the replies.
I take that most issues seem agreed by you.


@ Setomidor
Some disagreement about assassins wearing armours (we agree that an assassin can wear the Armour of Destiny, we disagree that it should be ruled out).
Some disagreement about scourgerunner S&S (we agree that it is IAW rules, we disagree that it should be ruled out).
In both cases, if there seems to be a majority's wish to change my initial recommendation and follow stricter RAW, I will.

About Strength of Khaine, but I'm not even sure about what is your disagreement.
What I say is that RAW, SoK applies to shooting (except breath & RBT), spells, impact hits; then I recommend it did not.
Could you clarify if you disagreed with RAW interpretation, or with the recommendation?
Note that when I mention "loophole", it does not mean that it is not RAW. It means that RAW have obviously missed a point and require an erratum, not an FAQ.

COB in skirmishers: do I have to understand that you'd refuse a DH/COB to join skirmishers, but after DH's death, you'd allow the COB do join skirmishers because the reason for refusal has gone? :o_O:

Feast of bones: I fail to see the similarity with OTS.
OTS: models in contact with bearer must reroll ward saves. => there is no mention about targeting individual models, and BRB p.53 tells that spilling over "represents the attackers fighting over the fallen foes", which is to be understood like if the spill-over models came in contact.
FoB: if all attacks target the same model and all of them hit, then the targeted model gets 1D6 more hits. => here, there's the necessity to target a model, and the rule specifically says that hits are made to the model itself. It is reasonable to assume (as many do, despite not strictly RAW) that it should not spill over.




@ General Kael
Will edit MP, thanks. 2 chariots, thanks, I forgot.
About shooting at mixed unit, point taken, you're not alone to think like this and you were the first to provide a fluffy explanation. I'll wait for more comments before making a revision.

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Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:34 pm
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Setomidor wrote:
This is the same question as "Does wounds inflicted on models under the influece of the Other Tricksters Shard carry over". The ETC makes a clear FAQ about this (allowing it), and I have never met anyone who would disagree. Therefore, I definitely think that the FoB should carry over as well (until clarified). Saying that you only can kill a single model if you are only in BTB with a single enemy model is opening a whole new can of worms.



When you say the ETC made a FAQ you mean a group of people got together to decide on a rule and not an official GW FAQ right? I'm not sure what they said about the other tricksters shard but it makes sense. You have the OTS and kill 10 guys obviously those 10 guys are not in base to base. But when you kill one guy, another takes his place, he would then be close enough to be affected by the OTS. Makes sense.
But the Kharibdyss feast of bones say if all his attacks hit the same model then that model takes D6 hits. It seem like if you latch on with all the other heads then he pulls you in for big sloppy kiss, an extra D6 hits.


Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:40 pm
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Added a small discovery I made about scourgerunners harpoons:
RAW: the scourgerunner's profile supersedes the RBT's profile BRB p.111. Therefore, the special rule "Ignores armour saves" is lost, too.

Again, I'm not pretending to have "the" truth. Keep discussing.

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Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:35 pm
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Calisson wrote:
Added a small discovery I made about scourgerunners harpoons:
RAW: the scourgerunner's profile supersedes the RBT's profile BRB p.111. Therefore, the special rule "Ignores armour saves" is lost, too.

Again, I'm not pretending to have "the" truth. Keep discussing.


If that is true it really makes it one of the most overpriced units in the game right now . . . . if not the most (probably tied with the fleetmaster)

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:35 am
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p.52 Kharibdyss Ld rerolls.
Issue: what happens when the opponent is in range of his BSB?
RAW: BRB p.7, a rerolled dice cannot be re-rerolled. If either the Kharibdyss or the BSB have made the reroll, there is no further re-roll.

Wouldn't the BSB re-roll and the Kharibdyss forcing successful re-rolls cancel each other out. Therefore what ever the first Ld roll is for the unit is what would be used.


Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:41 am
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Liquidedust wrote:
Calisson wrote:
Added a small discovery I made about scourgerunners harpoons:
RAW: the scourgerunner's profile supersedes the RBT's profile BRB p.111. Therefore, the special rule "Ignores armour saves" is lost, too.

Again, I'm not pretending to have "the" truth. Keep discussing.


If that is true it really makes it one of the most overpriced units in the game right now . . . . if not the most (probably tied with the fleetmaster)


There's only one monster with 2+ armor save, that's Bastiladon, all other monsters will have their armor removed regardless of "no armor save" or not.

Remember Scourgerunner is a monster hunter chariot. Ability to pierce ranks is a bonus.

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:07 am
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Dalamar wrote:
Liquidedust wrote:
Calisson wrote:
Added a small discovery I made about scourgerunners harpoons:
RAW: the scourgerunner's profile supersedes the RBT's profile BRB p.111. Therefore, the special rule "Ignores armour saves" is lost, too.

Again, I'm not pretending to have "the" truth. Keep discussing.


If that is true it really makes it one of the most overpriced units in the game right now . . . . if not the most (probably tied with the fleetmaster)


There's only one monster with 2+ armor save, that's Bastiladon, all other monsters will have their armor removed regardless of "no armor save" or not.

Remember Scourgerunner is a monster hunter chariot. Ability to pierce ranks is a bonus.


Considering it hits at best 5+ most of the time since you need to get close with it in combination with no free pivots it really is quite rubbish at its current points cost. Then on top of it not ignoring armour when you decide to pierce ranks to have alternative targets for it when not near some big nasty really makes extremely overcosted. And yeah I know I could pay the High beastmaster tax but then it sorta becomes a one trick pony doesn't it :/, and even more overcosted for what it does.

In reality long range, moved (due to pivot) and some sort of cover for its target for -3/-4 and a 6+/7+ shot is the more likely scenario for it to be brutally honest. Sure it has movement and could move into position for better shots, but with current terrain and unit blocking that is not exactly going to be the easiest one to pull off.

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:17 am
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You should never be hitting at worse than 5+. If you can move, and still take penalties for cover... shoot at something else.

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:57 am
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Thinking about S-runner, I change the recommendation about stand & shoot, to keep it RAW.
It makes fluffy sense to be ready to shoot a monster charging you.

Also, added Tome of Furion: before or after random spells?

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Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:36 am
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Added a comment about assassin's 1st turn charge. I see no RAW objection.

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Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:50 pm
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It's great to have them all in one place, makes life much easier very nice summary, thanks Calisson.

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Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:22 pm
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For Execs and GW shades, does ASF mean they can re-roll misses. Or does the ASL of the GW weapons remove that.

Just to confirm, striking order is ASF, ASF Simo, Initiative, ASL.

In terms of the Scourgerunner chariot, in the BRB it says for the bolt thrower that the entire crew both needs to crew the bolt thrower. However, it still doesnt say how many crew can shoot crossbows and how many can shoot the ravager harpoon. The Harpoon should be ignore armour saves as the Barbed Bite does ignore armour saves if it damages the target.

Do Doomfire Warlocks still get the Lore Attribute depending on what spell they cast.


Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:31 am
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Execs and Shades lose ASF re-rolls, ASL cancels ASF out

Striking order is: Impact Hits - ASF - Initiative - ASL

It doesn't actually specify how many of the crew is required to fire the weapon, but every war machine needs only 1 crew to operate at full functionality. The Harpoon perhaps should ignore saves, but it doesn't. Barbed Bite is a special ability that does.

Doomfire Warlocks do get lore attribute, but for Soulblight it won't matter since death attribute depends on doing damage.

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Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:01 am
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Just a quick question about COB and challenges. Is it generally thought that the hag can issue and accept challenges, which is my interpretation, because even though the cauldron is not a character the hag still is?


Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:28 am
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Yes the DH is and remains a character.

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Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:48 am
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Calisson wrote:
Yes the DH is and remains a character.



Thanks I thought so.


Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:37 pm
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And the entire model (Hag and the Cauldron) will fight in the challenge since mounts are included in those duels.

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Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:41 pm
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What about how the CoT works with Special Attacks like the Terrorgiests/Banshee Howl & Hexwraith/Screamer pass through/over attacks?

Discussion @ http://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=73552&p=885138#p885138

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Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:45 pm
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After some reading and re-reading of the relevant rules, banshee/terrorgheist screams (and all other "special attacks done in the shooting phase") will ignore CoT.

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Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:20 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
After some reading and re-reading of the relevant rules, banshee/terrorgheist screams (and all other "special attacks done in the shooting phase") will ignore CoT.

May I ask how you came to that conclusion? :)

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Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:58 pm
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Every other special attack that happens in the shooting phase (like medusa's gaze attack) is clasified as a ranged attack.
Screams of banshee and terrorgheist are not.
CoT protects from shooting attacks and spells and the screams are neither.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:23 pm
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