2014 ETC DE lists - opinions/analysis.

[Dyvim tvar]

I've never heard of a nurgle demon army or chaos dwarfs having trouble with purple sun. They have their own equally powerful magic.

I've nuked Nurgle Daemons with Purple Sun--not Papa Nurgle who has a surprisingly high Initiative, Beasts of Nurgle, Drones, and blocks of Paguebearers are all tasty targets. The fact that they have their own offensive doesn't necessarily protect them from a 6-die cast of Purpole Sun. It can come down to whether they can snipe the caster before she gets her big spell off.

[Dalamar]

I didn't say you can't do it, but in my experience nurgle demons have enough tools to mitigate a purple sun or two.

[7avito]

Yes they can jump over the game board and punch the opponent in the face before rolling for the spell.

[Pablo]

because 6 dice purple sun can win you agame turn one. Easily. I can recall at least two games, one in a tournament,
Where a first turn purple sun won me the game.
The tourny game was vs ogre in meeting engagement and I had a relatively shooty list, and so he deployed on the line and rushed forward.
My turn I get a big purple sun that kills most of his army. We both knew it was over then.
The other times have been vs vc where I get a purple sun and kills half thearmy.
Same problem with dwellers. I've won two games because of 6 dice dwellers. One in the first turn.
The big kill spells are nasty and brutally effective and that's why etc magic makes sense. It makes you plan a smarter phase.

[Dyvim tvar]

I had a game against a Nurgle Daemon army in which I had a Death Sorceress on a Dark Peg and she got Purple Sun as one of her spell. My opponent got first turn, and advanced his units. I flew my Sorceress into a flanking position and got a 6-die big Purple Sun with irresistible force and a 6 or 8 roll for distance (don't remember). Killed 5 of 8 from a unit of Beasts of Nurgle and 27 of 30 from a Plaguebearer unit.

As you can guess, it made the rest of the game go quite smoothly for me.

[Dalamar]

While 30 Plague bearers is pretty normal, 8 Beasts of Nurgle is ridiculous and the Nurgle player deserved to get a sun roll over that unit at some point. He clearly didn't build a list that can deal with it (Maybe by having 3 units of 3 beasts spread out around the table being annoying? Dunno). I bet he also didn't have plague drones ready to charge your sorceress right after she landed in the only optimal purple sun spot and killed half his army.

Aw man, love anectodal evidence. I have some too.

Played a mobile death wizard, never killed a thing the entire game, even failed to kill a HE archmage with the 2d6 - S hits spell. I rolled a 3 on number of hits.
Another game I cast Black Horror, roll a misfire, the Black Horror kills my sorceress and 4/5 warlocks. That was turn 1 against WoC. We both knew the game was pretty much over at that point (and if I won the game I'd have taken 1st place in a local tournament)
Another time I cast Purple Sun, miscast, get the large template killing half the bunker unit while the Purple Sun didn't even reach its intended target.

Yes, these spells are devastating, there are often more devastating to the enemy than to the caster... But they're not some well hidden closely guarded secret that you find out about when you put your army down on the table and go "crap, my I2 Ogres will now have to face the Purple Sun". To which I say "You didn't have to make a unit of 12 Ironguts with 4 characters in it did you?"

[Errdrigar]

Can you hear yourself ? You are defending unlimited magic by saying that every player should build his list just against this single overpowered spell (not even lore, but spell...) which most armies can abuse. This is totaly short-sighted because by doing so you are ignoring all other threats the army should take into account. And even if they succeed in getting 'purple sun resistance' it would probably be a crappy trade as they will loose a lot more than gain from it. Using your own example:

"You didn't have to make a unit of 12 Ironguts with 4 characters in it did you?" you say. I could ask you 'How do you imagine Ogres as MSU ?". Spread units with Ld7 at best (out of Inspiring Presence), easy to panic, hard to maneuver, lacking durability. Just great idea. And all of that just because one spell ? This is just an obvious imbalance. You say you haven't witnessed those things we decribe. Just because you play against opponents who go easy on you and don't abuse things they could it doesn't make the magic balanced.

And what is wrong with tonned magic phase the comp proposes? More planning during your phase? Not having obvious spells to cast? Those are good things. And even playing with ETC rules Death Magic can be devastiating. As you can check, many players took it despite the fact they can only cast it with 4 dice. Why ?

[Dyvim tvar]

Yes anecdotal evidence is fun and it does not always work out.

Similar situation against a VC player, caster on Peg with Purple Sun. I fly her into position and cast Purple Sun first turn irresistible and roll misfire so no kills. Second turn try to cast and fail. Third turn, irresistible, misfire again, and caster sucked into the warp.

[Pablo]

Can you hear yourself ? You are defending unlimited magic by saying that every player should build his list just against this single overpowered spell (not even lore, but spell...) which most armies can abuse. This is totaly short-sighted because by doing so you are ignoring all other threats the army should take into account. And even if they succeed in getting 'purple sun resistance' it would probably be a crappy trade as they will loose a lot more than gain from it. Using your own example:

"You didn't have to make a unit of 12 Ironguts with 4 characters in it did you?" you say. I could ask you 'How do you imagine Ogres as MSU ?". Spread units with Ld7 at best (out of Inspiring Presence), easy to panic, hard to maneuver, lacking durability. Just great idea. And all of that just because one spell ? This is just an obvious imbalance. You say you haven't witnessed those things we decribe. Just because you play against opponents who go easy on you and don't abuse things they could it doesn't make the magic balanced.

And what is wrong with tonned magic phase the comp proposes? More planning during your phase? Not having obvious spells to cast? Those are good things. And even playing with ETC rules Death Magic can be devastiating. As you can check, many players took it despite the fact they can only cast it with 4 dice. Why ?

This times 100. ESPECIALLY in a team environment where one spell can easily swing the fortunes of 16 players.
Sure you can misfire purple sun or black horror. How about pit? Dwellers? Final trans? All of these spells are great hero killers and can end games in one phase. And that one game where you misfire it or whatever there are 3 more where you win slightly because of it and 2 more where you win the game in one turn.
I think overall the etc rulesset is great for competitive play and makes you play smarter. You can't abuse choice rules and it makes it a better game.
And based on odds, your evidence happens 1/6 of the time.

[Calisson]

[Mod on]
Is this thread to discuss the merits of DE ETC armies, or to discuss the merits of ETC?
I'm sorry that every time Dalamar sees the three letters "ETC" he feels compelled to jump with his restless Judge Dredd anti-ETC cruzade.
My intervention is not to discuss the merits of Dalamar's opinion, which I respect, but to let the thread go back to the original poster's idea of analysing DE armies in an ETC environment - as reflected by the title.
Dalamar, feel free to start a separate ETC discussion when you wish.
Calisson
[/Mod off]

[7avito]

I have not seen any other armies lists, but are other races much more diverse than our own? Because I would think all armies have a more or less "set" optimal list, don't they? Or are we the sole exception?

[Thraundil]

High elves have greater diversity in that I feel their book is better written with better internal balance. About half run a SH bus with world dragon, full of characters and a death wizard. Other half are distributed amongst star dragon (alot more stable than our black dragon build), double frostie (anointed + normal), and then swordmaster/WL + PG infantry blocks. All are viable builds in the role HE must fulfil in a team army.

Dwarves also seem to be diverse between what they bring to support their cannons. Some use melee infantry, others ranged infantry, but all use at least some gyros.

Wood elves most bring characters on steeds, wild riders, waywatchers and poison arrow core.

But I havent looked at all lists, by far not. Its not that the dark elves have "a set list", just most people go with the pegasus list 'cos it fits the ETC best. Like most high elves play death bus. And most ogres play gutstar. And most warriors play with skullcrushers, trolls and exhalted heroes on demonic mounts. And how all empire lists feature at least a cannon and some demis. In spite of what people say, for most races and the role they fill out in a team environment, there is one general build that is the best, then a few close seconds, then a whole bunch of shiz that you dont bring - not for team comp, not for competitive singles, but only for fun in friendly games (non-WE core melee infantry, im looking at you!).

Small edit.

[Dalamar]

Sorry Calission. I'll get back on topic.

ETC Druchii lists:

They're all the same and I am deeply disappointed.

[Norse_malekith]

Tired of your whining about identical lists, Dalamar. It is simply not true. Yes, the pegasus builds dominate, because of the comp it is very solid. But you also have dragon lists, aggressive infantry builds with witches + executioners, Cold one bus lists. Heck, you Even have a shade star! Actuallly the diversity is much larger than many other races. For example ogres: gut star or leadbelcher spam. Skaven: bell or no bell (all have massed slaves + one or two cannons). Bretonnia: some lances, HKB, double treebuchet. Deamons: greater deamon or multiple tzeench Heralds, all have plaguebearers, skullcannon, beasts and files.

Yes, maybe high Elves and warriors have more ways than druchii to play competetively at the ETC, but we certainly are not world in class. Our new book open a wide array of options.

Best regards,
Team Norway Dark Elves 2013 (this year a father for a small baby)

[Thraundil]

Tired of your whining about identical lists, Dalamar. It is simply not true. Yes, the pegasus builds dominate, because of the comp it is very solid. But you also have dragon lists, aggressive infantry builds with witches + executioners, Cold one bus lists. Heck, you Even have a shade star! Actuallly the diversity is much larger than many other races. For example ogres: gut star or leadbelcher spam. Skaven: bell or no bell (all have massed slaves + one or two cannons). Bretonnia: some lances, HKB, double treebuchet. Deamons: greater deamon or multiple tzeench Heralds, all have plaguebearers, skullcannon, beasts and files.

Yes, maybe high Elves and warriors have more ways than druchii to play competetively at the ETC, but we certainly are not world in class. Our new book open a wide array of options.

Best regards,
Team Norway Dark Elves 2013 (this year a father for a small baby)

Yeah exactly. There is actually a lot of diversity. Btw congrats on becoming a dad

[Calisson]

For the first 50% of the list shown, the diversity is minimal:
Peggylord,
footed SS (mostly Death, often Shadows)
PeggyBSB, 2 Peggymasters
Darkshards, RBTs
DRs, warlocks
sometimes shades, WE, harpies

For this half, we could analyse a little bit:

1. Is there emerging a "best" equipment to provide the mobile flghters?
I have no incentive to do the research, but it would be interesting to compare.

2. Magic.
First surprise, most of the time, the SS is on foot. I expected more mobile SS.
Second surprise, Death emerges as a favorite despite the SS being on foot.
Third surprise, almost all Lores are taken once... save Fire (no surprise), Life (more surprising) and Dark Lore (big surprise). Why?

3. Within the model, there are some variations.
Is anyone willing to analyse the pro & cons?

-=-=-

Now, let's review the other 50%.

A shade star, err, no TWO shade stars? That is a great surprise.
- I note that besides Shades, there is another large infantry unit ready to babysit the characters, in case of a bad match-up for the shades. Someone cares to analyse that?
- Why Death Lore?
- Are character options optimal?

-=-=-

So-called "buses" seem to be variants of the 4 peggyfighters, riding CO rather than flying, and with 1 or 2 large infantry unit which change its character.
Anyone cares to analyse?

-=-=-

Two dragon & COB/WE list.
That is another interesting strategy.
Analyse/comment?

-=-=-

Others:
two khainite exec/WE list
two exec lists,
one two-monsters list.

-=-=-

Final analysis:
which unit were never selected?
Beastmaster/Fleetmaster/Assassins
Manticore/Dragonsorceress/chariot mounts
Swords/Spears/BG/SoS/Medusa/Shrine/COC/Scourgerunner

Which units were always selected?
DR/warlocks. That's all!

Allright, there were some units which were used in most lists, such as dreadlord, RBT, SS. But not all of them.

[Thraundil]

I can provide some insight to at least the quad fliers list, since I've been using it in a number of games now.

When selecting equipment, there are three considerations to be made.
1. Giving the best possible protection to the most valuable targets
2. Making sure every character is equipped to handle his job
3. Getting the most out of the items available to you

With these three guide lines in mind, let us consider the four fliers. The lord general, the BSB, and the two 'mundane' masters. The lord general has the highest base cost and is worth an extra 100 points if he dies, as such I consider him the absolute number 1 to protect. The BSB, while not as expensive, is a close second. Sure, he does not give up 100 points if killed from range, but there is a large tactical value in him. And of course, if he should fall in close combat, thats the before mentioned 100 bonus VP. The two 'mundane' masters is just there to a) make sure the general and BSB are not in close combat by themselves and b) they hit just as hard in spite of being worth less VP to the enemy.

With these things in mind, let us summarise the best defensive items ranked against their ranged and melee defenses.


1. Charmed Shield. 2+ ward against first hit is a big one. And since there exists ways to protect whomever is carrying it from being sniped by a normal arrow, I rank this very highly indeed as it will stop either a cannon ball or the first melee strike.

2. Cloak of twilight. The best consistent ranged ward save we have access to - mirrors the tzeentch exalted heroes/lords of warriors.

3. 4+ ward. Heroes have 2 sources, while lords have a third optional in the black amulet. Great all around, though not as strong at range as the cloak. Best melee ward we can get!

4. Dawnstone. For a 1+ base save, Versus S6, this mirrors a 4+ ward. Versus anything less than S6, its better than a 4+ ward. And since flying characters can generally pick their fights, you dont ever want to fight anything with S7 or better in close combat! This of course works vs ranged attacks as well - but most ranged attacks that fliers fear, ignore armor.

5. 5+ ward. Heroes again have 2 sources.

Lets keep in mind ETC is open lists, so all magic items are known!

So, there are choices to make. Do we want "master number 4" to pack a 4+ ward? Then the lord must take black amulet - which gives him room for either a magic weapon for S6 grind power, or to carry the other tricksters shard. Or both, if you can make do with S5.

Pros: Everybody is protected with the best possible saves.
Cons: This means that the odds of killing the general with a cannon equals the odds of killing master 3 or 4. And since the general is worth a LOT more buck, everybody will not even think twice before gunning for him.


The more sensible, and it seems the most common, conclusion is this. Rank your characters in order of importance, give them the best juice.

The lord gets the cloak. He also has 4 attacks so makes the best use of it. He then gets the dawnstone as well, to give him an extra means of protection in close combat. Do we give him the charmed shield? It gives a 2+ once. Not much of an improvement over 3+ from range. Better spent on someone else. What do we give him then? Dragonhelm is an obvious choice. If he ever runs into a flaming banner unit, he has 1+ rerollable followed by a 2+ ward save. He can tank K'dai, and any flaming unit he might face.

The BSB gets talisman of protection and charmed shield, the best possible combo on a master.

Master 3/4. One gets armor of destiny, the last guy gets a 5+ ward and the other tricksters shard because its so good to take into a fight, and you might as well.

Pros: Your general will not take as many shots, since you get average more points from gunning down master 4.

Cons: Master 4 is the obvious target.

Thats my thought process when selecting gear. Will maybe elaborate a bit later, right now I gotta go cook some food

[Thraundil]

And following up, in regards to mobility of supreme sorceress, and choice of lore.

If you run the supreme mounted, she kind of needs a steed. Warlock models + mounter chars (steed = 2) comes out of a pool of 15. If you mount the supreme, you have 9 left in the pool for warlocks, which means just one unit. Trading a mobile supreme for a unit of warlocks is not always the best choice - especially in those cases where you find yourself facing a shooty opponent like high elves (an otherwise pretty decent matchup for the flier list), ogre kingdoms (a dream for the flier list), wood elves (also a very good matchup for the fliers). Lets say supreme is with 9 warlocks. She will have mr(2), so magic is not an issue. But 9 warlocks, thats 18 times they need to be wounded. Thats not an awful lot - and its even less to force a panic check. This leaves you with two choices; have the supreme close to your BSB to pass it, thus exposing her to more firepower that she just cant. Or stay back, and then you dont really make use of the mobility - and thus you give up a warlock unit for no return. I've run a mobile supreme with life to support the characters, and it makes my good matchups even better, and my bad matchups it doesnt really help with.

That leads us to the choice of lores.
Death: many thinks the only good spell in the lore of death is sun. This is absolutely not true. All snipe spells keep characters honest about chasing your darkshard bunkers. If you do get the sun, you also keep monsters honest about it. The snipe spells can help thin out deathstars for the characters to more easily combo charge (if you can remove the champion out of a gutstar for example, you can charge it head on!), they can take down artillery in a pinch, they can help against monstrous cavalry due to their armor ignore. They are incredibly versatile. And then theres doom and darkness. Characters cant break steadfast, but -3 LD is massive. Even more so if you can punch out the enemy BSB, which should always be a priority on the charge. Other lores contain hexes to make the enemy unit take more damage, deal less damage, or augments to make yourself deal more. But death magic can give you a real good shot at breaking the enemy - even if they are steadfast.
Other lores summarised:
Life magic. You take life for 2 things. Dwellers, and being able to heal your stuff. Dwellers is great. But healing characters means being within 12" of them. Which means your supreme must be mobile. Which I covered above: you toss a warlock unit for it, and you are forced to put her in a poor spot. And it makes you brutalise your good matchups, whilst cannon lists will still mop the floor with the fliers unless you get a good charge in.
Dark magic: while word of pain is surely a good spell, what you really take dark for is the vortex. Two problems arise: you need mobility (see above), and you can take ward saves vs it. If you want a killer vortex, look to death. If you want a mobile supreme, its always gonna be death over dark in terms of raw and dirty output.
Fire magic: quite frankly a trash lore for what your list is made for. You have two great magic missile units.
Heavens: the fliers struggle vs gunlines. Heavens remedies this.
Light: as above
Beast: not the strongest choice imo, again because of the limited range on the augments. Mobility issues once again.
Shadow: in my opinion the 2nd best lore for the list. It augments your shooting and close combat phases, and gives tools to handle war machines. But it doesnt help you break units the same way death does.

To summarise: death is taken for doom and darkness and sniper spells. The sun is sure nice if you face a monster list that is mobile. But you take it for the tools death gives you in ALL matchups to handle the threats to your list. Snipe a bolt thrower turn 1? You reduced the kill threat by a huge margin. Snipe a cannon? Massive




Now, for the builds. Your standard list has the lord and hero sections almost maxed, my character build takes up 1170 points. For the core minimum, you want the 3 dark rider units, which is another lets call it 300 points since crossbows probably wont go on all units. Why you always take 3 units, comes later. Then minimum 1 darkshard unit to cover your supreme. Lets make that a reasonable size, and give it flaming banner and mus. I think 14-15 bodies is minimum. Thats about 500 core points. For the rest you either double the darkshards so you have an emergency bunker (popular pick), OR you take a small group of 10 witch elves to act as a speed bump, OR you up the one darkshad unit you have to ~23 man with shields and a champion to give your supreme alot of wouns to hide behind. Thats your core covered.
Double darkshard gives versatility in target choice, and gives you a backup unit if the first one gets shot (which also discourages your opponent from shooting them in the first place). Its a good choice, but it costs a little more, bringing your core to 750 ish points.
A WE speedbump is abit meh, in my opinion. Concept is good, but what they can reliably handle in 1 round of combat, 10 darkshards could shoot down. And vs anything else, they are free points or will do nothing all game.
A single big shard unit gives you close to a perfect 600 even points in core, giving you more options.
Then 4 RBT is pretty standard. Board control, board control, board control. Chaff control, singleshots force opponent heroes into units which can then be panicked or broken. 280 points.
Then 2 warlock units. 250 points.

Bottom line? Once all "mandatory" is spent, 1170 for heroes, 600 core, 280 RBT and 250 warlocks. You're looking at 100 points of goodies at most. Maybe if you tweak a hero (put him on a steed or something instead of a pegasus) you can afford a chariot to keep your supreme bunker safe from stray heavies. But more often than not, the two best ways of spending these 100 spares is to either go with 2x14 darkshards as mentioned above, or include a unit of shades to give you even more deployment and board control.

So when it comes down to it, the reason there is not much variation is because theres just not a lot of wiggle room

[Calisson]

Thanks a lot for the analysis. The issue I have against Death is its range. That's why I was surprise to see it taken by a sorceress on foot.

[Norse_malekith]

@Calisson

Reason for taking death on sorceress on foot is because of comp: mounted level 4 death limits warlocks to 5 models (and thus making it difficult to protect her).

@Thraundil thanks, being a father is great, but I hope to make to the ETC next year:) good analysis of the peggy characters. I think four is one to much: one lack the sufficient protection. I believe dreadlord on horse with giant blade, dawnstone and OT shard protected by a unit of warlocks/Dark riders is very strong supported by 3 peggy masters: BSB with Charmed + preservation, one with twilight, and one with armour of destiny, all with lances. Then you have all the punch and protection you need.

[Thraundil]

@Calisson

Reason for taking death on sorceress on foot is because of comp: mounted level 4 death limits warlocks to 5 models (and thus making it difficult to protect her).

@Thraundil thanks, being a father is great, but I hope to make to the ETC next year:) good analysis of the peggy characters. I think four is one to much: one lack the sufficient protection. I believe dreadlord on horse with giant blade, dawnstone and OT shard protected by a unit of warlocks/Dark riders is very strong supported by 3 peggy masters: BSB with Charmed + preservation, one with twilight, and one with armour of destiny, all with lances. Then you have all the punch and protection you need.

Spirit leech, caress can both be boosted to 24" range at fairly low casting penalty. Soulblight is natural 24", doom and darkness can be boost to 48". So usually swap fate for signature, keep whatever else.

I've tried out the lord on steed. My issue as you lay him out is he will be a prime target for death magic and similar snipes, AND if you go all out on a magic missile on his unit to break look out, sir!, he is also a sitting duck for cannons and bolt throwers. But, it has more punch and better protection all over once you get into melee.

[Artur]

Death star lists. There is a couple of cold one or warlock deathstars. Often a witch elf unit is a staple entry here, and if the bus is in warlocks, an executioner unit too. I like the overall concept, since the close combat phase is incredibly strong. But at the same time its got an all eggs in one basket feel, and I cant help but fear that the power units might be redirected. IF you can pick a good fight though, you're golden. There is also a shade star with the potential of frenzy. He will have to be incredibly careful in matchup pairings. Something like a trueflight wood elf list, any dwarf list, any mobile list at all, will completely clobber him. He desperately needs the right matchup, And even then he will be pressed to make points versus good opponents.

Hi Thranduil! I absolutely enjoyed your analysis, and I always love your posts on asrai.org and TWF (I'm not confusing you with anybody else right?) I'm Tamodan on both of them, and I'll be playing the ShadeStar list for the Belgians

Unfortunately, I completely disagree (obviously ) with your analysis of my list, but also broader, with your analysis of Druchii overal.

On a broader level, I think you'll have to rethink the impact of Death magic on a flying circus list. The lord is automatically bound to the Ring in this matchup (in it's most usual build, Giant Blade, Dawn stone, stuff). Either he'll be pretty useless in this case, footslogging at 4" or you'll go for the Deathstar option, and keep all your characters in there as well, which, for safety reasons, will happen a lot more than you think. (Canons, Banishment, Doom Divers, Caskets, Terrorgheists, Banshees, Blood of Hashut,..., all pretty bad for lone flying Characters). It that case, you're again playing a Deathstar. I believe that a ShadeStar is far more potent in CC and on distance then the Pegs accompanying Darkshards.

Point preservation is primary in ETC, and that's why you'll see a lot of Deathstars. 4 lone flying characters are difficult to kill, but there's a lot of stuff that can, and than you'll start bleeding points. A lot of them, 'cause there's nothing left to protect the more vulnerable stuff. You say the Flying Circus list makes for easy 12-8s. I'll say it has the potential to go 12-8 or 3-17. The first will happen a lot more than the second, but the second is what you're looking to avoid. Don't get me wrong, it's definately a very good list, probably the best Druchii build, but it's maybe not as good as you make it out to be. Maybe your idea of what a Druchii list should look like is also a bit based on the idea of that Druchii should (best) adapt a quick, swift, guerilla fighting style? Abandon this a priori, and you'll see that there are a lot more options then it seems Druchii make wonderful Deathstars it's ugly, I know, but it's effective. Gutstars, Ghoulstars, UberLances, I'll guarantee you that a ShadeStar walks over. And it shoots to boot. And is a lot less vulnerable to Death Magic

Pegasus list great matchups: lizards, daemons, ogres, warriors, wood elves, beastmen, tomb kings, brets
Pegasus list "okay" matchups: empire with STank (no light councils or cannons), high elves, orcs and goblins (debateable), to some extent vampire counts
Pegasus list bad matchups: dwarves, skaven.

Seems also quite generous to me. Daemons are no great match-up for the Flying Circus list, too difficult to kill the combat stuff with lone characters, while they kill your soft stuff way faster than you kill theirs (Rot Flies > Darkshards: 1 turn. Lord > Horrors: 3 turns). A good Daemon player will get the 12-8 win. Idem for Warriors, not that amazing. Nothing to stop their characters from ruining your soft stuff. Wood Elves are definately okay, but have the potential to go horribly wrong.

TK are a nightmare. Casket, auto-irrisistable Banishment, 2 stonethrowers, floods of archers that kill yours but take ages to kill in CC. Bààd you might win, but you might lose big too, and that's bad in ETC. OG and VC are firmly in the bad category, you'll bleed points (stomp those RXB! Doomdiver versus lone characters. Rock Lobber versus General - Screams, snipes, and nothing to kill worth a dime) getting there, and once you arrive, you'll have a hard time scoring any decent points.

Again, not saying it's a bad list, far from it, it's one of the very best DE builds, definately the best under ETC, and you can preserve points really easily, but it's risky to go on the offence with I'm playing a bit of the devil's advocate here, while I think you might be using some pink glasses.

As to my list, I'm not gonna tell too much, as it has some surprise effect (although I doubt anybody will effectively be surprised, I'm afraid most'll know what they're doing ), but I posted the list here on Druchii.net earlier on, you might still find some stuff there to point you in the right direction, think ETC-style (point preservation, potential to score at a distance: won't this list be more effective at it than a Flying Circus, considering the vulnerability of its ranged elements?). It is true that in that golden match-up, I can push forward, take his stuff off, and go 20-0. The opposite happens very rarely, though that's a first strong point of the list. In some cases, I can force that scenario to happen, but take a small win-loss otherwise. In some cases, I have a vééry bad match-up. But tell me, which ones are really bad? I haven't got as many bad match-ups as you seem to think, and the list is far more flexible and tricksy than it seems. If you look carefully, you'll see a lot of common elements with the Polish DE list. As Dalamar rightly remarked, there are 2 ShadeStars at the ETC, not one I'm sure he uses his a lot better though

Absolutely no offence meant, I love your analysis and effort, just to wanting to stir up some debate

ETC comp is a disease of warhammer.

They're all the same and I am deeply disappointed.

Always appreciate your posts, Dalamar, but stop fighting this windmill. It's okay, you killed it. Multiple times. Let it slide. ETC is a set of composition rules that allows 300+people from 34 (thirty-four!) countries to come together and play Warhammer, and a factor of that to enjoy themselves analyzing their games and lists. That's not a disease, that's arguably the greatest thing a Warhammer community has ever achieved.

The reason all these lists are the same is because of the level of play. If you're analyzing every army to the bone, you'll find the best thing, comp or no comp, and a lot of countries did this year. As co-author of arguably the most different Druchii list and one of your "brave folk", I feel entitled to tell you that variation in a Druchii army is possible under ETC, and that external balance is even a lot better than uncomped Warhammer. Is it perfect? No, it's a global compromise. Let's lay rest to the conspiracy theory that people are trying to force anybody to obey these rules, enjoy your games, and let others enjoy theirs.

[T.D.]

Good discussion

Especially good to see ETC players posting here.

D.net is cheering all the Druchii players of the world on

[Calisson]

Good discussion

Especially good to see ETC players posting here.

D.net is cheering all the Druchii players of the world on

I could not state it better.

[Mod on]
Artur, I apreciate immensely your input overall, but please take care not to fall into anyone believeing you might tease back Dalamar, wouldn't you mind?
I'm sure all readers will apreciate this thread to be kept professional.
Thank you.
Calisson < trying the best I can to keep a friendly atmosphere for everyone >
[/Mod off]

[Thraundil]

Hi Thranduil! I absolutely enjoyed your analysis, and I always love your posts on asrai.org and TWF (I'm not confusing you with anybody else right?) I'm Tamodan on both of them, and I'll be playing the ShadeStar list for the Belgians

I'm afraid I'm Thraundil of druchii.net (and certain other websites, to be fair). The Thranduil to which you refer is not me, as those websites aint ones I frequent. (note the slight variation in spelling. When I first chose my internet alias I was 12 and had just read the lord of the rings. And this stupid moron misspelled the name but it stuck, and I've used it ever since)

That being said. I am by no means an experienced ETC analyst. I didnt even play warmup (though I might next year, if anyone will want me as a teammate ) and so, all im doing is providing my gut feeling. And my gut still says there are places where the shade star will struggle where the pegasi will be better. You say alot of valid things that are dangerous to lone fliers, which binds the fliers to a unit, thus creating a deathstar. How about attaching fliers to dark rider units, thus transporting them into the close combat they need? Appreciate you taking the time to post this - I never played a shade star in my life. Before I can say any more than those 3 lines I wrote, I will need to. Almost everything I've written concerns the flier list which I've played extensively since the current ETC draft. You have obviously played and prepped the list and I dont think you would take it if you didnt trust its abilities =)

Also. Love your passion about the ETC that is clear from your post.