EoT Lessons learned and Summer of Chaos

Decheran · Post by **Decheran** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:35 am

Misinformation is so much fun though, and when used correctly is very effective. In WWII we made Hitler think that we were invading in Sicily, and sent the majority of his army there, so when we landed in Normandy we met a fraction of the forces that were there. So we could do everything that would look like we are going to attack point B, and take our time doing it. Then, once people start responding to our actions, we attack point A as fast as elfly possible, which is now not as strongly defended than before. But, that is ecedingly difficult. We would actually have to make our druchii generals think they are attacking point B as well, until the final order is made to go after A. All in all, I do think we need a Supreme Druchii Commander. Someone that is steadfastly Druchii and knows what they are doing, so there is a final decision with no ambiguity.

Aekold helbrass · Post by **Aekold helbrass** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:43 am

I agree whole-heartedly. we need some people identifying places where wins are needed. to do this we need to find out how they calculate that, who we're fighting, and what most druchii players want malekith to support so i'll wait till spring.

Post by **Underway** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 3:30 pm

Decheran wrote:Misinformation is so much fun though, and when used correctly is very effective. In WWII we made Hitler think that we were invading in Sicily, and sent the majority of his army there, so when we landed in Normandy we met a fraction of the forces that were there.

Uhhh, actually the invasion of Italy was well underway by the time the Normandy invasion took place. The Allies were halfway up the "boot" by the time Normandy was invaded. But yes the Germans belived that the invasion would take place nearer to Dieppe than all the way down in Normandy, and this was due to misinformation.

On topic though, I don't belive a supreme commander will work overly well. This is mainly due to the differences of opinion at this site, and the inability to enforce decisions made. We need to generally agree on the target and then slam into it hard and fast, and don't give up for the entire campaign. This will have knock on effects and as more gains are made by the DE in our chosen area DE who are not members of this website will begin attacking there. This is all about getting the message to the people. The most people on the same side the better the chance of winning. Look at the Albion campaign. DE had one of the lowest win percentages, but we had the most wins because we played the most battles. Therefore we won. We should aim to do the same in this campaign.

Kheinach · Post by **Kheinach** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:27 pm

Perhaps we could try two different forums, 1 open to all where suggestions for targets can be made and discussed by all, and a 2nd locked forum just for the High Command (possibly mods) that are elected (maybe) or generally agreed on and can be trusted (which is why mods would be best). The 1st forum can act as an open area for anyone to discuss their favoured target and try to persuade the High Command why it would be a good idea to attack there. The second forum will be where the decision is actually made. The High Command could then post say three target areas on the general forum. This would achieve a number of things:

1. An atmosphere of inclusion; all members would be able to have their say in the debate and eveyone can easily find out the targets. It doesn't matter if the enemy know, because what can they do about it? Plus, they may be suspicious that we're being so open about it, like with the Green Kroosade, and disbelieve the info.

2 Retain an element of choice; with three possible targets, players will feel they have some control over their actions, while not leaving things so wide open that the results are scattered across a huge area and have little effect.

3 Uses the larger size of Druchii.net to full advantage; we can attack in several places at once, so the "Conclave of Light" alliance of Lizzies HE, Empire, Dwarfs and Bretts will be stretched too thin to help each other and the alliance will be useless.

4 Confuse the enemy; with several attacks in different locations, few people will be able to discover the real thrust of the attack. In the last week of the campaign we could focus on one single target. the forces that have had to spread out to fight on several fronts will be unable to react to the sudden shift fast enough and we will make huge gains on the crucial target right at the very end.

5 Avoid arguments and splits within the ranks; there will be no need to factionalise if a person does not agree with the "set" target, since there will always be a choice of two or three others that (s)he can pursue. They can also always argue their point on the main forum if they feel particularly strongly and influence the Hig Command's decision- the targets can always be changed if they aren't working!

6 It avoids the need for complex codes and mazes of locked forums/ false posts/ PM etc and thus as many DE players as possible can get access to the information they need. This links in with point 1 about inclusion.

7 Maximum security with minimum exclusion; the final decisions will all take place in the locked (hidden?) Command forum between mods(?) who can be trusted not to leak info. There should only be a few members of the High Command, which means few people will know of its existance, thus reducing the number of enemies trying to hack in to the forum and discover the secret plans. Plus most people won't bother as the targets will be posted on the open site. The locked one should just be used for tactical decisions such as where and when the main thrust will take place and possibly small surgical strikes at vulnerable targets by the High Command themselves. As noted above, all members will have the opportunity to post ideas about targets on the open forum, and so will not be excluded from the end decision.

Decheran · Post by **Decheran** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:21 am

Underway wrote:
Decheran wrote:Misinformation is so much fun though, and when used correctly is very effective. In WWII we made Hitler think that we were invading in Sicily, and sent the majority of his army there, so when we landed in Normandy we met a fraction of the forces that were there.

Uhhh, actually the invasion of Italy was well underway by the time the Normandy invasion took place. The Allies were halfway up the "boot" by the time Normandy was invaded. But yes the Germans belived that the invasion would take place nearer to Dieppe than all the way down in Normandy, and this was due to misinformation.

I knew that, it was just more of my misinformation!

but hey, earlier that day I inhaled unhealthy amounts of chlorine gas, give me a break :roll:

Arquinsiel · Post by **Arquinsiel** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:52 pm

As an idea to stop us worrying too much about spies: Divination Magic. It exists fluffwise in the warhammer world so why wouldnt the two most magically adapt races (HE and DE) use it to their advantage and know all about what's going on with both sides? I fail to see the point in over-elabourate code systems as the response time is already pretty damn slow and a complex order delivery system will just make things worse. I agree with underway, just get the message to as many people as possible and hope it gets to the right people.

Avatarofslaanesh · Post by **Avatarofslaanesh** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:40 am

Agreed everyone should know about any plan

If the orks could do it then damn well we should

where thems got force we got numbers(never thot I'd say that bout druchii) and the most cunning gernerals in the world

Power to all, even the most lowly of raiding ships gererals can destroy a larger ship with right tactics, organization, and well placed power

Be like the raven, and attack when no one is watching oh great druchii

Even a dingy commander can take out a battleship (remember 911)

Knowing how the druchii function as a whole works efficiantly and effectively and all individual druchii work with immense cunning we shall become the victors

May the Blood of our Enemies Flow!

Lord_korael · Post by **Lord_korael** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:21 am

We could also try dividing into different groups each with a specific goal all led by a central command group(ie yahoo groups). This worked really well during EoT for the FoD. Every group could vote and this would prevent a spie from finding all of our plans in one place. Just a thought

Lord_korael · Post by **Lord_korael** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:21 am

We could also try dividing into different groups each with a specific goal all led by a central command group(ie yahoo groups). This worked really well during EoT for the FoD. Every group could vote and this would prevent a spy from finding all of our plans in one place. Just a thought.

Asc · Post by **Asc** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:54 pm

We could also try dividing into different groups each with a specific goal all led by a central command group

I must say I like this idea. Those who wish to fight Chaos could do so along our Northern Border.
Those who wish to kick scaly ass (ie: me) can do so
And those with Cult of Slaanesh armies can travel to the Old World and aid Chaos.
Fun for all :twisted:

Daod · Post by **Daod** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:59 pm

There have been quite a few post on the subject of spying, double agents, mis-information, and such. In my oppinion, the best use of such is just pure chaos (not the army). Everyone do what they think is best for their army, and the enemies wouln't know what to believe. Obviously try to get as many Druchii players to know what's really going on, but this community in itself is probably large enough that if we know what's going on, we can deffinitly make a major difference. I personally like the idea of a few smaller groups using their own strategy, probably co-ordinating it among each-other to acchieve best results.

Orteo · Post by **Orteo** » Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:56 am

The thing about a campaign like this (making assumptions here) is that the race that is most focused will get the most accomplished, as the other races can't stand up to such a concerted effort. So it doesn't matter if the conclave of light or whoever knows what are plans are if we have 5 times as many people persuing that goal as they have defending against it. Simply by the nature of the size of this community and by making sure everyone knows the goal noone will be able to stop us whether they know what to expect or not. Go ahead and make secret codes if you want, but it isn't what is going to win this campaign. Wide-spread accurate information is.

Lord_korael · Post by **Lord_korael** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:43 am

We are only one race though and I think the amount of "good" players out there outnumber us by a lot. We can't take them all alone but we can hit where they least suspect with smaller numbers of groups and confuse the as to where the main attack is going. Thus, the smaller groups would prove useful.

Kerd'ahin · Post by **Kerd'ahin** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:08 am

Lots of good ideas 'round here i see

- I like the polls and democracy idea like the green kroosade but as Namurim said to be efficient, the poll needed to stay for at least 1 or 2 weeks. This is way too long! Anybody got ideas to shorten this time because if not our enemies will have all the time to prepare themselves?

- No locked forum. Da Ghault had a very good idea: Elect a cast of trusted generals. (I.e. one or two for each of the great command posts:
High Commander of the Druchii army
Admiral of the Black Fleet
High Priestess/Priest of Khaine
Master/Mistress of the Arcane
Lord of the Houses)
Or one (or two) for each of the six cities
Then each of us choose whom (sp) they decide to ally with
Each of them will have his own opened topic (War Council of Har Ganeth…, but I’m sure you can find a better name) and each of them will contribute to finding targetS as well as reporting to the other members of the cast which targetS (s)he and his(her) mates have decided to strike at so they’ll be able to coordinate their actions or on the contrary strike each at different targetS. This way no need of locked forums because they’ll only speak of what they’ve already spoken of with their mates.
This will ensure that the forum’s “War room” isn’t full of people yelling “Post victories here QUICK” “Post victories there QUICK” “NO HERE” and so on. The chats were full of these which only help to set the FoO war room into Chaos.

- The key to success is speed and Knowledge. I was in EoT and I saw how the events cards worked (or didn’t worked). If there are event cards (or similar) we NEED to be aware of what they do as soon as possible or they will be almost useless.
As for speed, with unlocked forums we should be able to transmit our orders with enough speed to catch them unprepared.

- MTUCache had another good idea. A handful (or maybe 2 or 3... think about 20 to 30 persons) of players should form a strike team that would regroup cunning generals (their friends should testify of this) and would thus being expected to win more than the average. This strike team would spearhead some assaults or some tight defenses in order to ensure victory.

What I did here was only to sum up (and perhaps improve) what Namurim, Da Ghault and MTUCache did because I found this was the best way to handle the oncoming campaign.

Lord_korael · Post by **Lord_korael** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:33 am

- MTUCache had another good idea. A handful (or maybe 2 or 3... think about 20 to 30 persons) of players should form a strike team that would regroup cunning generals (their friends should testify of this) and would thus being expected to win more than the average. This strike team would spearhead some assaults or some tight defenses in order to ensure victory.

I really like this idea. We could use the strike team to open up attacks are almost guaranteed to have an advantage over any enemy at that location. Good job to MTUCache.

Gwaihir · Post by **Gwaihir** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:09 pm

Arguyably the most important facet of planning for a campiagn such as this is to ensure that everybody knows what goes on, and when that happens. While the greatest strength of a community such as this is the sheer number of people that belong, that number of people by default makes it difficult to inform everybody of each major decision. Not knowing anything about the site mechanics here means I obviously can't advise directly, but forums like this one generally have strong plus and negative points in this regard:

1. Simply by virtue of it being a public forum, everybody can see what every body else has said. This is great in pronciple, but in reality it can be unwieldy - there are hundreds of posts here per day, and that will only rise when SoC arrive. There is also the problem of spies - though that cannot be averted.

2. Well built forums, like this one, have poll functions. For consulting the masses (ie. me and everybody else) polls are a crucial method of canvassing opinions, and arguably forming broad strategy. Through simple polls big tactical decisons can be made, and refined later by a smaller group.

The numbers of players here cannot be underestmated - working together we can be a mighty force. The biggest problem with EoT boards was however that generally they relied on mass opinion, often based in Yahoo groups with only one message board. This clearly does not work. The scope of an independently run forum allows us to use a degree of democratic process, with a degree of controlled strategy.

As to our role in the campaign... we will inevitably be placed alongside Chaos, and there is probably no avoiding that. To the wider Warhammer community we fit a Chaos sterotype, so that is where we will go. My concern is we will just be played as opposites to the High Elves - who I invisage as playing a role akin to that of elves in LotR - elite troops honouring ancient alliances with the world of men. If this is the Chaos we may ebnd up sidelined in the fluff, playing a role as the nasty elves, but no further than that, which will just be a shame.

Should that be the case, we msut damned well stand up and fight our way to the forefront! GW cannot deny us victgory even if they deny a prominent role.

In summary; Communication is the key, without communication we descend into proverbial chaos, and become minor Chaos allies. This cannot happen.

-- Gwaihir

Mandly · Post by **Mandly** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:42 am

I belive we should have some people with the most experience leading the operations by giving suggestions. The rest should be in strike teams that can coordinate the attack on a target...Finally when given the chance we all go togeather and hit em hard where it hurts the most.

I realize this is what many has said but this is my own thoughts aswell..

Teifion · Post by **Teifion** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:29 pm

I like the idea of the locked forum.

I do have a question however. I did not participate in the Eye of Terror Campaign, so do not know what the event cards could do. Could somebody please relieve me of my lack of knowledge?

Daod · Post by **Daod** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:38 pm

Can GW really force alliences for us? My understanding of the EoT campain was people reported who they fought, and where. Even if they tell us to ally with chaos, couldn't we just post a bunch of battles where we attacked the Chaos Wastes, or something?

Kerd'ahin · Post by **Kerd'ahin** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:59 pm

I do have a question however. I did not participate in the Eye of Terror Campaign, so do not know what the event cards could do. Could somebody please relieve me of my lack of knowledge?

These are cards given to a player after he won a battle
they can influe on the victory ratings in a specific area (for exemple in the EoT : Sanguinius' statue desecrated : all chaos victories in the Cadian system count twice for this week only... that sort of thing)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:31 am

you guys need girlfriends!

Sha'a'alaar · Post by **Sha'a'alaar** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:58 am

Loads of ideas here . . . but the main points I've seen in this thread are:
1. We all agree we need some degree of co-ordination in our attacks;
2. Whatever we do not all Druchii will agree or follow that;
3. Until the campaign mechanics are available we cannot define our strategy.

In view of this I would propose that we:
a. Keep an open and public debate about who and what we want to get in SoC;
b. Form a SoC Council to debate privately the merits of the various points from the open discussion and targets for the campaign (based on its mechanics);
c. The Council publish the SUGGESTED targets for the campaign. These could change during the campaign based on how things go.

This allows our members to do what they want but, and this in only my opinion, I believe most here would follow the suggestions. By leaving the publishing of targets to the last thing our enemies (who may be spying on this site) will have to live with it or react incredibly quickly (suggesting a level of organization that they probably haven't got).

Sha'a'alaar

Daod · Post by **Daod** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:03 am

Anonymous wrote:you guys need girlfriends!

If it counts for anything, most of us do have girlfriends.

Sorry, we now return you to your normally scheduled post.

Lord_korael · Post by **Lord_korael** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:29 am

I'm still for independent yahoo groups with specific objectives led by a larger command group, but an unified group numbering thousands might do just as well. The odds of spies infiltrating a number of smaller groups is less too.

Lasthope · Post by **Lasthope** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:45 am

you guys need girlfriends!

wow i do have a girlfreind, i would say more and mabey flame but im not going to waist my time are put myself to low standards :roll: