Your thoughts on "Upgrade Insurance"

[Lord hajjij]

"Upgrade Insurance" is a term that I've been using latley to describe the fact that a lot of people spend a lot more points on things to make sure that they do what they want them to do...even though sometimes this increase in points may make them over expensive for what their job is.

Here is an example:

When is the last time you saw this combination on a dark elf lord?

Highborn
hw, ha, sdc, enchanted shield, lance, black dragon.

Coming to 476pts, this lord is very hard hitting, flies around and causes terror and breath weapon goodness just like all his other dragon riding buddies, and has a pretty good chance of survival, especially against rank and file troopers. R&F is probably what he will be fighting most of the time as he has the movement to pick his battles...and should only pick fights where he can win big in the first round. Can dictate the course of a game.

Here is what I am more likley to see.

Highborn
hw, ha, sdc, sh, gauntlet of power, mystic shield of light, black dragon.

Uber killy and protected, but weighing in at 563pts he better be. Better than his buddy above in hitting power and in protracted combats, as he hits harder longer and is better protected from return attacks. Has the ability to beat up on the baddest chaos lords, but then again he costs probably 200+ more points than them anyway. Overkill against most other enemies...but his presense on the battlefield is enough for many to justify his points.

A difference of 87 points in the 2 characters. Now do you feel that those 87 points could be better spent elsewhere, or do you feel that the 87 extra points just goes to 'insure' the fact that you have already thrown in 476 points anyway...you might as well make his as effective as possible? There are 2 schools of thought here...lets here your opinion.

[Viper]

i usually put my High lord on a cold one in a unit of COKs. He has the GOP and Mystic shield of light as well as all the nonmagic armor options. So far he has not died from combat. Just run down from him or his unit breaking. The most that I have seen him take is a wound and just 1 ward save. The Mystic shield of light may seem like overkill on the protection side, since I do have 1+ AS in close combat and 0+ at Ranged. The reason it is there is for the Chaos lord with the Helm of many eyes challenging me. Maybe I can survive long enough to b*tch slap him with my Gauntlet of Power. Not to mention magic. Just count up the number of spells out there that ignore armor and of course your high weaponskill is meaningless vs magic because it jumps straight to wounds. Now the only thing standing between your highlord becoming a crispy critter is toughness 3 and the 5+ ward save. Obviously I am going to try to stop his magic that targets my high lord but irresistable forces and bad rolling on the dispel happen.

And Besides, you have to be disgustingly ubered out to even come close to competing with the lords of other armies or even large monster. Even my Gauntlet of power and 4 attacks will not kill a giant in one go.

[Mtucache]

I like that term: "upgrade insurance"... that's a great way to describe it.

I've held a similar stance up all over the place, and never really understood why it didn't click with some people.

This pops up in all sorts of armies.... and we've got some great examples in our usual army selection.

- Cold One Knights. All you really want them to do is break someone in the first round right? With US10+, and fear, you've got that covered 90% of the time, without bothering with anything other than wounds. So why put a banner on the unit for a +1CR that they won't be rolling anyway? Why put a champion in the unit for one extra attack? Why put a magic standard on the unit that they don't need? You're taking a 145 point unit and beefing it up to 200-250 points, and for what? That 10% chance that you'll need the extra "insurance" on the break?

- Dark Riders. How effective are those RXBs for you? Ten S3 shots fired while moving and at long range aren't exactly scaring anybody... So why spend 30 extra "insurance" points to kill one or two models, when they can still break a warmachine crew on the charge without them?

- Once you start getting into characters, then you go off the deep end. Why is it that people always insist on spending 800+ points on characters, when 400 points in characters would do almost as good of a job and you'd be able to field an entire new unit???

These are the most common examples of "insurance"-purchasing that I can think of, and frankly both of them are driving me crazy. Why risk fielding (and losing) a 400+ point unit when a 200 point unit could do the job 90% of the time?

Great topic... perfect name for it. I've been prescribing to this principle for a while now, but never had a name for it. Thank you.

[Viper]

you break units with just 5 COKS? I can't do that with 8.

The extra points are better spent on a characther than on another unit.

[Mtucache]

Not just 5 CoKs... The entire key to this game is getting your units to work together to eliminate enemies more powerful than themselves. If you just slapped units head to head against eachother, GW wouldn't have bothered inventing the movement phase.

I use 5 CoKs to break my opponent. But all they do is provide the dynamic CR (flanks, negating ranks, wounds). The static CR (ranks, standard, outnumbering) come from infantry units. When combined together, you build up a lot of CR quickly, breaking your enemy even if he is more powerful than you are... he can't get enough wounds to make up for the difference.

Anyway, much harder to do than to say, but you've got the gist of it. I don't just use any of my units seperately...

How do you use those 8 CoKs? One huge rank (where you only get half into combat)? Or two ranks (where you're dropping a ton of points on what amounts to a +1CR bonus)? The way I see it, all I want them for is the attacks I can get on the charge... anything other than that is just "insurance". Since I can only ever get 4-5 into combat, there's never any need for more than that.... I'm not depending on their ranks or standard to get me anything.... all I want is for them to cancel ranks and do a couple of wounds... then run down the enemy.

Basically this comes down to ROI (Return on Investment), if you can get the same performance out of something that is half the price... why wouldn't you? 8 CoK are almost never better than 5.... what do the 3 other ones do besides just stand there and try to outnumber people? Why buy them if they're just standing around waiting for someone to die so they can take their place. These guys are good for one hit per combat... so anybody who doesn't get their attacks is a waste.

[Ash010110]

For the most part, I agree with you MTUCache. . . however, I believe that your particular example of riders w/ RXBs are a good investment when there are three units of them concentrating fire and a bunch of shades launching their bolts in as well.

In terms of characters and combat troops: I am right with you. It is for this reason that I didn't try to find space for the Blood Armor on my noble and why I don't bother with Lord level characters in Grim Legion. The best insurance is another unit

May peace be with you,
Ash

[Drek]

I try to play like MTU describes, but it takes skill. A lot of skill. I think that's why it's so tempting to beef units up. With 'upgrade insurance', you pay the extra points to create units that you can just line up and charge headlong with and win without using your brain or any skill.

But it takes thinking and skill to get to the point where another unit is better than an uber-character. I'm not ashamed to say that I'm not there yet, and there are times when it's frustrating learning how to win with these guys. When I do win with thought and skill, though, it's a thing of beauty, and often a mystery to my opponent who looks at my army and thinks "How did he do that?"

You can win that way with Dark Elves, indeed I think we are most effective that way. That's why I am taking my lumps learning, and why I don't buy 'upgrade insurance.'

[Jiangwei]

this is a very interesting idea - i've seen small children playing with a lord of tzeentch on a chaos dragon, with the infamous Staff of Change, and the Armour of Damnation. this particular combo costs about 700-800 points. (trust me i have the chaos book)

although these things are a real menace in a game, it is just not worth it.
i've tried this combo, and i have never made up the points, not nearly.

so yes, i agree with MTUCache, Ash, and all the others that say that units are better. it is more economical in terms of winning back points, and, for most people is more fun to play, not to mention in a way, more challenging.

especially with dark elves this is not a good idea, since the druchii as a race were created in the mind set that the more tactical players would go for, and use their units such as DR to set up flank charges, and out manouver their opponent through flanking, and picking fights carefully, or hitting weak spots in an enemy line, re-grouping, and the sallying through that gap.

in conclusion, dark elves are not super character armies, but a smartly placed character can tip the combat. druchii should rely on units, and troops being coordinated properly to win, not one mega-char on a dragon, gorged on magic items.

now, i thank everyone who has sat through that rant without falling asleep, but i needed to get it out of my system

[Viper]

I apologize Drek and MTU. You guys are right. I think that i have been getting frustrated lately becuase I keep losing becuase i am not experienced enough with the multiple unit tactics. And all the other non-DE players give me advice about beefing up the units (which still don't do much better than the smaller ones.) Actually I mostly use a unit of 5 Coks along with my noble or lord on COk. I just recently fielded the 8 man unit. I will definitely have to work on and study up on my tactics. It just kind of sucks when the high point of your gaming week is when you managed to only give your opponent the solid victory instead of the massacre.

[Mtucache]

No need to apologize... we're all just giving opinions here, and yours is no less valid than mine.

Drek is right, it takes a lot of experience and skill to get your units to work together.... one mistake and you've left one out in the open, easily beaten-down by your enemy. I'll admit, I don't have some crazy knowledge of the game, heck, I don't even think I'm all that good, but I've talked to a lot of people who are, and learned how they play.

Dark Elves simply weren't meant to stack up to other races head-to-head... they just aren't tough enough to last, and are too expensive to waste. In order to be successful with them, you do have to have a good grasp on the game, and you have to be able to predict your opponents' movement very well in order to set up the traps and feints you'll use.

Anyway, we're veering off the topic here.

Another instance of "Upgrade Insurance" which I've pointed out to people before is the use of Fanatics in Night Goblins. So many people just assume that since you can have three, then you must want three... I've found the opposite to be true. The real benefit of fanatics isn't the damage they do, because that's too random to depend on. The real benefit of fanatics is being able to stop your opponent dead in his tracks at 8" away form your unit. This gives you an extra turn to shoot/magic them, and lets you set up charges.... but, in order to do that you don't need 3 of them, just one. So, my suggestion to NG players out there is to save yourself 50 points (per unit) and use those points to get even more goblins. That's just one example off the top of my head.

[Zentaricai]

and yours is no less valid than mine.

C'Mon..... :-)

[Viper]

and yours is no less valid than mine.

C'Mon..... :-)

LOL

[Cailil]

I agree with MTUCache - I've been fighting Orcs & Goblins for the last few months and my DRs were doing nothing - so i put a noble into the unit, with Blade of Spite (no lance but BoS makes up for it) I also used the unit to protect my mounted Sorcoress - it broke a unit of 14 orc boyz in one turn, pursued them and took their standard. The best insurance is combing the efforts of the units into oncerted attacks.

Similarly I back up Morathi with 10-12 WEs or alternatively a noble with chillblade on a D.Pegasus. Leaving good units/characters on their own makes them less effective, supporting them makes them great.

[Dyvim tvar]

As for your first example, the Lord on the dragon, I think the points are definitely well spent to upgrade the Lord, though I would do it differently than in your example. I would personally give the Lord either: (1) a lance, shield, sea dragon cloak, Armor of Eternal Servitude and Crown of Black Iron; or (2) a lance, heavy armor, sea dragon cloak, Heartstone of Darkness and Shield of Ghrond. The reason why is because although a dragon is very hard to kill, the Highborn on the back is pretty fragile. When I spend 320 points on a dragon mount, I want to do as much as possible to avoid taking a monster reaction test. To that end, a ward save or regeneration is a must. There are too many shooting attacks that either ignore armor or have a high armor save modifier (cannon, jezzails are most common in my experience) to simply rely on an armor save.

As for crossbows on Dark Riders, sometimes I use them, sometimes I don't -- but the great benefit of have the crossbows on the Dark Riders is that you can use their extreme maneuverabilty to get in position to shoot things that you generally won't be able to target -- ratling guns and lone mages for example. Also, it gives you an option to use stand and shoot as a charge reaction. I have decimated some enemy units of fast cavalry that have tried to charge my dark riders.

[Drakken]

Okay, I agree on the Lord, I agree on the CoK, but I have to disagree on the RBX on DR. The types of units the RBX Excels at killing are some of the biggest threats to DR, and removing also makes the DR far far better off), and I personnaly find it easier to have some of the punch for that on the DR themselves. It basically allows DR to beat almost any Fast Cav unit out there, between Fire, Stand and Shoot, and Spears (all the "better" units are a bit more 1-Dimensional).

Overall, I agree with the seeming Majority, I don't particually like really big point magnets. I haven't put a unit (inculding character in it) down on a table worth more than 300 (outside of my Black Guard Regiment of Humorness) in a DE army in a long time. 9 out of 10 Times, more troops will beat out tooled troops, and you can take the principle to massive extreme's and still be successful (the 300+ Skaven Army for Example).

[Viper]

[quote="Drakken"]It basically allows DR to beat almost any Fast Cav unit out there, between Fire, Stand and Shoot, and Spears (all the "better" units are a bit more 1-Dimensional).

quote]


Is it better to be awesome at 1 thing(1-dimension) or mediocre in many?

Actually that is a bit harsh, DR are one of the better mounted archers that I have seen, although Empire has some riders with pistols, but I am not sure how good they are. At any rate, they seem to be the best fast cav archers so why not give they RXb? I do not think they do well in close combat.

[Zentaricai]

At any rate, they seem to be the best fast cav archers so why not give they RXb? I do not think they do well in close combat.

Here's where everyone is coming from so you understand better:
T3 shots that may only "hit" twice (given 5-6 models suffering from -1 x2 shots, -1 most likely have moved, -1 maybe long range, -1 maybe shooting at chargers, -1 may be shooting at skirmishers )and have a less than average chance of wounding anyting with T4 (requiring 5's to hit)aren't as good as 5-6 Str 4 hits on the charge + the horses Str 3 attacks.

I no longer give Dark Riders RxB take the 24 points and buy something else with it!

[Dyvim tvar]

Sure, you usually can do more damage when you charge with Dark Riders than when you shoot with them, but:

1) Sometimes you can't charge an enemy unit because of range, line of sight, etc., but you may still be able to move into a position to shoot at the enemy unit

2) Sometimes you don't want to charge an enemy unit because it will leave you out of position for other things or because the Dark Riders themselves might take casulaties from a stand-and-shoot reaction or from the combat itself -- the nice thing about shooting is that the enemy doesn't fight back

3) Stand and shoot can give you a critical edge when dealing with other fast cavalry in the game -- fleeing is not always what you want to do with your dark riders, and crossbows can make a big difference when you get charged

Crossbows are pricey, but they make your Dark Riders much more flexible. I don't always use them, but I do most of the time. I think it's a huge mistake to just leave the crossbows at home every game. I like to make some evaluations based on my expected opponent and the composition of the rest of my army.

[Lord hajjij]

I like that term: "upgrade insurance"... that's a great way to describe it.

Thanks.

Once you start getting into characters, then you go off the deep end. Why is it that people always insist on spending 800+ points on characters, when 400 points in characters would do almost as good of a job and you'd be able to field an entire new unit???

These are the most common examples of "insurance"-purchasing that I can think of, and frankly both of them are driving me crazy. Why risk fielding (and losing) a 400+ point unit when a 200 point unit could do the job 90% of the time?

Now what do you do in a tournament setting where you attempt to elimate that 10%?? Using a non-druchii example (as the thread has unfortunatley turned into tactics/which unit is better discussion) I would present the classic porko's pig stikka vs. unit of 20 goblins example. Sure, you can get a whole unit of gobbos for 40pts, the same as the pig stikka. But what if those gobbos panic on turn 1, or fail animosity and charge another unit...and what if your boar boys charge a unit of skellies and lose by 1 where they may have suceeded with the pig stikka? Upgrade Insurance certainly isnt as cut and dry as "keep your characters/units cheap and get more of them"...at least IMO.

Basically this comes down to ROI (Return on Investment), if you can get the same performance out of something that is half the price... why wouldn't you?

ROI to me is not "if a unit got its points back"...it more "if a unit did its job the way that I wanted it to be done." If a unit doesnt do that job well in most of its games it will be changed. Much like a baseball player on the trading deadline. Even after playing through a year of fifth and all of sixth edition, I still havent truly found the most effective unit for all the jobs that I want done on the battlefield. That is why I love DE, and warhammer in general.

In regards to my own question that I posed in the original post...I think a certain amount of upgrade insurance is required, especially in a tournament or a static army composition playing enviornment. I wouldnt call rxb on DR or 4 more CoK in a unit upgrade insurance...I would call it "role inhancing" or something like that. Blood armor on a noble, standard on CoK (unless on main combat unit which is a must IMO), or even spears on a chariot, or what have you I would.

I would really like to hear some more opinions from all of you.

[Langmann]

Good topic. I am moving it to Tactics as it is definitely tactical.

Good use of the word, upgrade insurance.

[Khordale]

MTUcache, I agree with you on a several points (as I often use basement bottom, stream-lined CoK units of 5 and they nearly always get their points back) however, it should be pointed out that there IS a benefit to beefing up a CoK unit to >5 models... You can't autobreak a unit unless you outnumber them. In a few 3k+ games (too expensive in smaller games) I have taken a unit of 10 CoK's and with the charge and casualties factored in, broken and subsequently ran down a stubborn unit of 25+ and BSB. That is real difficult to do with any manner of combining units. Not saying it is the dominate market strategy per se, but definitely a "role player" in some army lists.

Personally I subscribe to the all or nothing theory, If my strat depends on key elements surviving for most of the game, I protect them however I can whether that is magical items, meat shield units or what have you. If on the other hand, they are not central to my strategy (sometimes the opponent knows which units are in this category, sometimes not ) then I tend to rely on redundancy and streamlined, cost effective units to be the order of the day.

So I guess I say bully to upgrade insurance. It can mean the difference. After all, in for a penny in for a pound.

Khordale[/u]

[Darkadon]

I think when it comes to a HB riding a Dragon or any important character, you need the upgrade insurance. If you know that he'll be a target, you should go through the extra steps to protect him. Take the first example of a HB whose only magic item is the enchanted shield. If a cannonball hits him, he's pretty much screwed. But if he has the AoES and CoBI, for the extra 80points you have spent, you have kept your 500 point killing machine alive.

Even with COK, I think upgrade insurance is a good thing. War Banner + FC + 10 COK = autobreak. This might not be ideal in a tourney, but in a one off setting where you know you will face a Slaan in a TG unit, or a unit of Greatswords, this can become invaluable. I am a fan of upgrade insurance in a DE army, I think it fits us well. When you think of elves, you think of small elite forces. If you go the route of skipping the upgrade insurance and making your units less beefy to include more units/models in your army, why not play Empire, Skaven, or O&G where you can field 15+ units.

This is just my opinion, but I beleive that all Elven armies are built to maximize upgrade insurance. Just look at the fact that champions in the HE army can carry magic items and they have cheaper magic items. That's all from me for now.

[Shockwave]

Upgrade insurance, is in all reality about Cost Effectiveness, but on a more refined level.

Example, 4 COK's at 126pts for the extra rank, of which you will lose at the first casualty Vs Warbanner at 25pts, which in all realty is carry by the last number of the unit. Lord Hajjij has a valid point on "overspending" on units, However how good is that fear really if you can't even get the combat res??
Thus the smaller upgrades Like champion (18pts) and Standard with Warbanner (43pts) for a guranteed +2 CR with a poss 3rd is worth it, but keep the second rank at home.

Example 2, Some people Like the dragon, me? Manticore. Granted the Dragon has an armour save, but in reality anything heading your way that has a good chance of hurting isn't gonna let you have an armour save, A Breath Weapon which you can't use in combat which is where you gonna have to be to make the most of this killing machine. But it does have better stats flat out. So your paying 120pts plus a hero slot For better stats (but not by much) an armour save that you might get to use, and a breath weapon that you might get to use once per battle. Thats why i choose the Manticore.

Another Example, Shades with light armour, +2pts a model for a save you will so rarely pass, and just as rarely actully get to have it. Actually i would say 1 level armour "upgrades" in general if it wasn't for the Hand weapon- Shield combo (ie. Just Shield or just Light armour).

Another instance of "Upgrade Insurance" which I've pointed out to people before is the use of Fanatics in Night Goblins. So many people just assume that since you can have three, then you must want three...

I SO agree with this, more often you can do more damage with just fanatic or just the threat of a fanatic.

[Jiangwei]

as other people have sort of implied in their posts, i think that a certain amount of upgrade insurance is necessary, if that is what is required to give your units the ability to fulfill their role on the battlefield.

example- giving DR RXB means that, you can ride up along side an enemy unit, and start peppering them with arrows, therefore enticing the opponent to charge that annoying unit of DR, but when you flee as a charge reaction, and he falls short of you, it will more often that not expose his flank to you.

now, if those DR had not have been given those RXB, then they would ahve had to fulfill that role a different way, that would have been more risky than the one above. (take march-blocking for instance)

[Drek]

i think that a certain amount of upgrade insurance is necessary, if that is what is required to give your units the ability to fulfill their role on the battlefield.

I think you have hit on a crucial point here. If you are buying an upgrade necessary to effectively fulfill a role on the battlefield, then it is worthwhile. But 'upgrade insurance' is not a necessary upgrade, it's insurance! It's designed to make it easier to fulfill that one role. And while it may make it easier to fulfill that role, you make it harder to win the entire battle, and you are hurting yourself in the long run more than helping.

As I've been learning, I have gone the opposite way of most players I know. I started reading all about MSU, and my first lists basically had no upgrades except champions. But I have started learning what to add, and some of them do make a big difference. But I always ask myself if they are necessary upgrades to fulfill a role on the battlefield or not. If they are, I take them, and if not I spend the points somewhere else, because I think that is the crucial difference between 'upgrade insurance' and a necessary upgrade.