Head to Head: Grim Legion vs. Orange Legion

Evilzealot · Post by **Evilzealot** » Sat May 07, 2005 6:01 am

I like the armies and watching the deployment - very interesting thread! Both appear to be great armies to play, with a bit to do in each phase. I wish people around my gaming place played with such diverse and characterful lists, I'm tired of seeing elven troops deployed in 20+ units while standing in plain sight of all my bolt throwers....

Why is it you deployed the RBTs first? I realize they would have use as a psych value, but he may overcompensate trying to guess their positions. Also they seem dangerously close to forests, as Exar Kun may snatch up a RBT. I suppose I will have to wait until you are both finished deployment, as you wouldnt want to give away further deployment strategies until it's all etched in stone.

Keledron · Post by **Keledron** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:11 am

EvilZ,

there's a couple of tactical reasons why you might deploy a unit like RBT's first:
1. the pschology value they can have on many players is useful, creating instability in their mind and making them rethink deployment
2. the rule of the obvious - if it is obvious where a unit must go then simply get on and plonk them down why waste time saving them until later.
3. as a forcing move if I deploy here then you won't want to be infront of me - this can work particularly well against players who are more reactive in the deployment phase than active.

A point to remember is that though they are near the woods you still can't deploy within 10" of them eliminating much of the wood as a location in which to deploy. Smart move.

Rasputinii · Post by **Rasputinii** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:05 am

EvilZ and Jaz both myself and Ash will explain our choices once they are done, and then will comment on each others Deployment. As for Ash being silly, he has been anything but silly, and he knows it....

Glaciandar · Post by **Glaciandar** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:10 am

And I hope he feels horrible about it.

Jazperdude · Post by **Jazperdude** » Sat May 07, 2005 9:47 am

RasputinII wrote:EvilZ and Jaz both myself and Ash will explain our choices once they are done, and then will comment on each others Deployment. As for Ash being silly, he has been anything but silly, and he knows it....

I didn't say silly

please strike that from the record.

I'm very curious to see these phases explained because I know you are both able tacticians.

Makes me wanna go and write a head to head with someone too

I'm really enjoying the read.

Xizor · Post by **Xizor** » Sat May 07, 2005 12:43 pm

Deployment is looking great so far guys, Im looking forward to your summaries once complete

Jaz man, you should set yourself up with someone for a "Head to Head" - they are an excellent chance to look into your own army in a maybe more indepth way than normal, plus you get the feedback of the guy your "playing".

Rasputinii · Post by **Rasputinii** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:12 pm

Jaz, I will do a head to head with you with my current thoughts on Beasts of Chaos. I want to really delve into this list before I start buying so a Head to Head would be great for me, and you seem keen to do one. If your up for it post a thread with your list here in the T forum and I will put up mine, although you can do Diagrams.

Jazperdude · Post by **Jazperdude** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:30 pm

sure ras that would be pretty cool. I can try and do diagrams but I kinda suck with computers so I'll try my best with paint

beasts of chaos you say? ahh they'll make a great opponent for my 2000 point target list. A good review of tactics could really help me decide what units I have to buy next. I'll get my list + a basic map and we can have a go at it.

Xizor · Post by **Xizor** » Mon May 09, 2005 11:21 am

Hey Ash, Ras - you guys still doing this

Ash010110 · Post by **Ash010110** » Mon May 09, 2005 5:41 pm

Yes. . . but Ras has once again gotten distracted and gone off to do another one :roll:

Rasputinii · Post by **Rasputinii** » Mon May 09, 2005 5:55 pm

Hey, I have finished deploying, and I have just updated the Map. Time for you to finish deploying so we can get onto something more meaningful...

Robin · Post by **Robin** » Tue May 10, 2005 1:22 pm

Nice threat, can't wait to get the explanation of deployments.

RaspuntinII I don't know if you're familair with powerpoint but that can make it really easy for you to update the map because you can have a fixed map with moveable units. Works really fine. If you're interested I could make one for you, will take me about 5 minutes I think. In our club we use powerpoint all the time if we want to make a battlereport. Just let me know.

Cheers,

Robin

Rasputinii · Post by **Rasputinii** » Tue May 10, 2005 4:09 pm

Thanks for the offer Robin, but I can move all the pieces around

. Also, once Ash finishes deploying that will be the end of my map :cry:

Post by **Langmann** » Tue May 10, 2005 5:03 pm

Very good idea, you two. I am going to sticky this thread as well.

NO SQUABBLING LATER. I'm watching the both of yous...

BTW Ash, glad to see you got rid of the DOG heavy cav, they weren't fluffy for my liking, but thats just me.

Ash010110 · Post by **Ash010110** » Tue May 10, 2005 5:13 pm

@ Langmann: so the DoW Norse suit you better?! :roll:

I've finished up deployment so now Ras can post his Turn1 tactics assuming first and second turn. I'll post my T1 tacs sometime tonight/tomorrow morning Eastern Standard Time.

May peace be with you,
Ash

Post by **Langmann** » Tue May 10, 2005 5:21 pm

Ash010110 wrote:@ Langmann: so the DoW Norse suit you better?!

Yeah, for some strange reason. I guess because they are insane killers, the kind of flunkies that would be found scuttling around the fringes of a DE army.

* Caveat:
My opinion is mine only and not that of anyone else's. Anyone else who chooses my opinion as fact, is in fact not a representating of the opinions of others. My opinion should not be taken as a representation of the said company.

I've finished up deployment so now Ras can post his Turn1 tactics

Assuming he's got any...

RasputinII wrote:
The DOW are pure killing power. 11 S5 atatcks in nothing to sniff at, but their defenses are. Slow and un-armoued RXB fire will eb critically damaging. Once whittled down either a policy of non engagment or chariot charge will ensue. .

What you want to do is hit this unit hard on the front. You should be able to hit this before it hits you. Here is why: these buggers are easy to kill so the more you clean off the front, the less that are hitting you back. Take them down to 2 models on the front and they're not so scary anymore. If you can do this and win combat then they lose thier frenzy and are now useless expensive humans.

Also they strike last so hit them with something that is guaranteed to clean off a few from the frontages each turn.

Rasputinii · Post by **Rasputinii** » Tue May 10, 2005 6:31 pm

Ash, you are to eager. We must reflect upon our deployment and then each others deployment phase, so as to explain to those who can not see what we are upto or what have you. I will put something up tomorrow. Time for more revision...

Cheers for Stickying it Langmann. You are right about the Norse of Course, but it is getting that unit in position, which seems to constitute a chariot + Warriors

Ash010110 · Post by **Ash010110** » Tue May 10, 2005 7:21 pm

Oops. . . that's right, we're supposed to discuss the reasoning behind our deployments first, THEN we can do T1 tacs.

@ Langmann: check out my battle log to see what happens to my Norse when charged in the front :twisted:

May peace be with you,
Ash

Post by **Langmann** » Tue May 10, 2005 7:32 pm

Ash010110 wrote:@ Langmann: check out my battle log to see what happens to my Norse when charged in the front

Don't know where that is, but I'll take your word for it that something bad happened. However if the dice are normal, a good charge by a noble and a unit of COK on the front should remove the frontage of a 5 by unit for sure: no attacks back = no cry. Of course we'll have to do something about their ranks, but that makes them no more difficult than spearmen.

I am nowhere near as scared of them as I am of some other 2+A high S units out there : CK, Saurus, GK etc...

Ash010110 · Post by **Ash010110** » Tue May 10, 2005 8:55 pm

True. . . I was accepting charges from infantry, ushabti, and flying bats. It's in the Army List forum, BTW, under the title of Grim Legion : Updated <date>

Xizor · Post by **Xizor** » Wed May 11, 2005 11:46 am

Nice to see this back in action, following the great example laid down by myself and the mighty Dark Alliance.

I have a plan to make a new topic in here and copy into it the complete "Head to Head" me and DA had - If someone could sticky it Id be hugely gratefull

I await the next phase Ash and Ras...

Robin · Post by **Robin** » Thu May 12, 2005 1:46 pm

Anything happening? Can we place our bets and make our predictions about how this battle is going to proceed and who is going to win? Based on the complete deployments I already made predictions on what is going to happen in the first three turns (shooting priorities and direction of movement and the setting up of charges). So I can't wait to see the next installments of this topic.

In the mean time I've got two short questions for Ash:
1. What is the rationale behind the deployment of the 12 spears in a 7,5 formation.
2. Why deploy the zealots in 4,4,4,3. I would sonner expect 5,5,5 or one extra an 4,4,4,4.

Maybe you can cover both questions when you clarify your deployment. Many thanx.

Robin

Post by **Langmann** » Thu May 12, 2005 1:54 pm

robin wrote:Anything happening? Can we place our bets and make our predictions about how this battle is going to proceed and who is going to win? Based on the complete deployments I already made predictions on what is going to happen in the first three turns (shooting priorities and direction of movement and the setting up of charges). So I can't wait to see the next installments of this topic.

In the mean time I've got two short questions for Ash:
1. What is the rationale behind the deployment of the 12 spears in a 7,5 formation.
2. Why deploy the zealots in 4,4,4,3. I would sonner expect 5,5,5 or one extra an 4,4,4,4.

I think he expects the zealots to be shot at by the RBT and so wants to maintain at least 3 ranks.

Ash010110 · Post by **Ash010110** » Thu May 12, 2005 2:38 pm

DEPLOYMENT REASONING

Well, since Ras has exams to take, and since I'm going to be out of town for a week, I figured I should do this now before ppl completely forget about this thread

The idea here is for me (and then RAs) to write the reason why each deployment slot was placed as it was.

1. 12-spears in 7+5 formation: This was just a bait deployment, something to measure Ras' response. By placing them wide, I reserve the option (or make him think I'm reserving the option) to place some unit behind them. Since they're on the hill, nothing behind them can be seen by Ras' force. The plan with them is to just march them straight forward (they are the only unit I anticipate doing this with). If he ignores them, I will get to his lines in 3 turns. If he shoots them, then I'm diverting fire from the flankers.

2. 5 Riders w/ SM: Now we're getting somewhere! Ras tipped his hand early, showing me clearly where his anticipated firing lines will be. I'm not sure whether this was a good move or not, especially so early. While saving the RBTs would force me to deploy evenly so as not to give him any obvious 'sweet spots' for the artillery, placing them so early kind of gives me a major idea of where the rest of my stuff should/shouldn't go.

Anyway, I placed the combat riders here to begin my right-flank feint. They cannot be seen, and they can zip around the flank should he choose to ignore that flank or hit the forest to flush out any shades that might take residence.

3. 15 Norse in 4,4,4,3 formation: His RXBs were a no-brainer, so I placed the norse here for two reasons. First, their 8" march means they cannot go around the flanks if they want to be useful. Secondly, by placing them on the inside of the right-woods (rather than the inside of the left-woods), I continue the stacking of the right flank.

I chose the norse at this time b/c the rest of my army is fast enough to redeploy if needed. Also, I've already decided to put my RBT around there for counter-battery-fire and they need the cover.

4. 16 Spears in 4x4 formation: His spears mean nothing to me deployment-wise. Ras is refusing to commit to one flank or the other, so good for him for not flinching yet.

I place my spears on the flank to add to my feint and give my riders support should the feint turn into a true thrust. I've basically said: take this flank threat seriously. . . which he does

5. RBT: So Ras finally puts something on the right. . . excellent. While their RXBs are somewhat annoying, I now know I can place my noble on that flank and there will be something worth chasing.

The RBT is placed, as mentioned above, to shoot his RBTs and anything else that tries to take the center field which I plan to abandon. They go on the right side to again accentuate the flanking threat to get him to place more stuff there.

6. 5 Riders w/ RXB, M: Not too sure what to make of the chariot deployment. My initial thought is that he is going for a screening maneuver to protect his left-RBT. . . of course, Ras might be smarter than I give him credit for

so he might just be setting up for the left blitz I plan on making. Actually, seeing how the right flank is rather crowded, this would not be such a bad guess on his part.

So I place the left blitzers in place b/c I don't think that switching to a right-blitz is a good idea. The reason is simply this: there is more 'safe' ground on the left than the right. A unit which comes around the bend on the right is subject to more fire than one that comes around the left.

7. 5 Riders w/ RXB, M: More of the same. Ras is covering his left-center with the option to intercept the left. . . very good, Grasshopper.

I place more blitzers out of LOS to add pressure and force him to respond with something (anything!).

8. 16 Spears in 4x4 formation: Excellent, his final rider unit is placed. While their maneuverability allows them to 'redeploy', the fact that he's committed them to the left means we'll have a nice game of cat-and-mouse around the left forest.

My spears are doing a flanking maneuver to support the riders and make sure he doesn't get too bold on the left.

9. Chariot: Hmmm. . . the fact that he's placed the riders so obviously implies to me that he still doesn't know where he wants his COKs and 12-spears. I am also somewhat surprised that he chose to place the second rider unit there instead of the knights. My left flank blitz is now a definite, and it seems to me that the heavy support of the knights would have served him better on the left. On the other hand, he may not trust his ability to keep his COCs in line, so a third unit for stupidity-insurance may not be an error.

I place my chariot to keep his chariots in check and to ensure that his riders don't just ride around the right of the left-forest.

10. Chariot: More redundency for me. His spear placement is interesting: it tells me he feels his cav can delay my left flank enough and that he feels he needs some scrubby stuff to deal with my right. Bait for the norse, perhaps?

11. Chariot: Redundency again, and now stupidity is equal on both sides

12. Characters: As I said above, my noble goes on right b/c there are now enough units to make such push worthwhile. The wizards go on the left to control the chariots and support my shooty riders. Since I expect a lot of smokes & mirrors from Ras, it is imperative that I magic them down ASAP. Also, I get maximum coverage from his shooters so I can start whittling away the more static elements and dissuade any of his wizards from poking around there.

13. Scouts: Sorry I jumped the gun on this one, Ras, but you were taking too long

. Anyway, left-RBT is Primary Enemy No.1. His character set up is not too surprising.

I place the shades there b/c there is more room to maneuver and do PITA plays. A first turn march would put many units in immediate check, and he would have to hope that he could shoot/magic down enough of them to neutralize the scouting threat. Again, if he shoots down my shades/BM, then the rest of my army is that much closer to his lines unmolested.

. . . your move, Grasshopper. . .

May peace be with you,
Ash

Ant · Post by **Ant** » Fri May 13, 2005 12:57 pm

Ash, a few questions on your deployment

I chose the norse at this time b/c the rest of my army is fast enough to redeploy if needed. Also, I've already decided to put my RBT around there for counter-battery-fire and they need the cover.

I like the position of these, although I would have placed them slightly further from the wood to prevent Ras' shades from march blocking both them and the spears, and/or forcing said shades into the open to be able to march block. I even like the timing. What I don't like is your reasoning for that timing. Surely if they can't redeploy quickly, that is an argument for leaving them until you know exactly where you want them? Although I think the unit was deployed correctly and at the right time, I expected you to mention more about using them to try to force Ras' hand or get him to change his plan than you did in your last post.

Why did you leave the deployment of your RBT so late? Especially as you said you had already decided where to put it. It was obvious it will be used to shoot other RBT's so would go on the hill or where you put it. Why didn't you place it early to keep Ras guessing about your other deployments? I also think on or near the hill is a better position for it as it is less likely to be targetted by enemy shades than where you put it.

Speaking of shades, why the left wood and not the right? Choosing the right wood prevents his shades from march blocking (I see this as very important in this game as your right flank cannot afford to be bogged down) and from going after your own RBT. I see this as a muh higher priority than possibly getting one of ras' bolt throwers on turn 2. On the right your shades also have a juicy unit of Dark riders to shoot from the edge of the forest, and they can shoot another off ras' RBTs. IMO that is an infinietly better option than the left wood. But then Ras seemed to want the left wood too, not sure why though

. Please enlighten me

.

Mostly minor points, that won't have much effect on the overall game, but I'd like to hear some counter arguments anyway

.