Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:12 pm



Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
The Slave Topic - All Slave Topics Go here 
Author Message
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:41 pm
Posts: 5170
Location: Putting needles into people.
Here is the place to discuss Druchii slaves as units for the DE army.

Please place your slave posts in here.

This is being done since there are about 1 new slave topic every day and the moderators are just too small in number to handle the movement of them all!

Links to some past slave articles:

The Dark Elf Slavers List

_________________
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:14 pm
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:08 am
Posts: 209
Location: looking for something else to do with Sanity
Post 
you can symbolize slaves in a darkelf army: dogs of war. i find it very unlikly that darkelves would take slaves to war (such a waste of money, and a general would not care how many of his own troops he lost). so its logical that they would be a rare choice. all you need to do is take a core choice from another army as a dogs of war unit and BINGO you have a ready made slave unit.

_________________
The only time you need to worry is when you see a snotling with a monacle and goatee. Then; you run.


Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:14 pm
Profile
Cold One Knight

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:55 pm
Posts: 218
Post 
Any fluff can be altered or invented to suit an army list's purpose but having said that there is a prime example of slaves being butcherd for the tactical purposes of the DEs in the current army book. The fact is slaves provide an extra dimension and tactical possibility to the army and should - by their very nature - be numerous and cheap to bulk out what is a comparitively small army.


Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:00 pm
Profile
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:54 pm
Posts: 93
Location: Finland. The land of Cwens.
Post 
Quote:
i find it very unlikly that darkelves would take slaves to war (such a waste of money, and a general would not care how many of his own troops he lost


It's true that Druchii generals are willing to spend troops in their thousands if needed, but wouldn't they rather spend worthless slaves than warriors that can actualy fight. The generals aren't stupid(unlike their mounts tend to be) you know. Would ANY self respecting general waste his real troops if he could waste slaves that can allways be taken more, via those real troops?!!! And as Teech sayed, in the book there are examples of Druchii using slaves in combat.

_________________
Don't let honour, faith or mercy prevent your victory.
Dark Elves are merciles and effective army.

http://www.5wwwww5.com/holmansvikings/
YOUNG forum about Viking period re-enacting...


Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:47 pm
Profile YIM WWW
Follower of Malal
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:37 pm
Posts: 2726
Location: Colchester, Essex (UK).
Post 
Slaves are not worthless.

Slaves are the currency and workforce in Naggaroth. If anything, slaves are worth more than Druchii - like money in the real world. And please, lose the "Druchii generals will sacrifice thousands" notion - they're willing to sacrifice some to achieve a goal, not kill everyone in Naggaroth to destroy two Chaos warriors. They're tacticians, not morons.

_________________
General Kala wrote:
Cenyu wrote:
Hail to the King, baby.
All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.


Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:16 pm
Profile
Blasphemer and Heretic
Blasphemer and Heretic
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:07 pm
Posts: 2021
Location: Sowing the seeds of evil in the hills of Austin, TX
Post 
A few things that you have to keep in mind.

- In the army book, the commander who orders his slaves killed makes it clear that they have no choice. They either sacrifice their profits or die to the human cavalry. That story is a testament to the ruthless pragmatism of the Dark Elves, not a chronicle on Dark Elf tactica.

- When you discuss anything about Druchii slaves, try substituting "heaping bag of gold" for the word "slave" and see if still makes sense. You could also subsitite "five years pay". That's about what slaves are worth to the Dark Elves.

- ANSOB also has it correct about the "sacrifice thousands" nonsense. Dark Elves don't waste ANYTHING - slaves or their own troops. While it is true that Dark Elves aren't inclined to mourn the death of the weak, this doesn't mean that they are quick to kill off either their power base or their resources. If a Dark Elf general marched back to Naggaroth having sacrificed thousands of his own troops and achieved nothing he'd be on a short leash to the Altar.

_________________
Because anyone vicious enough to shoot down her own battlecruiser because there might be a traitor at the helm deserves to have a Druchii namesake.


Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:51 pm
Profile YIM
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:54 pm
Posts: 93
Location: Finland. The land of Cwens.
Post 
Please note the "if needed" part. I didn't mean that they would do it for nothing! Let me clarify this: If it is needed for GREATER victory and is counted as only choise, then a druchii general would be willing to sacrifise as many men as needed, even thousands. Is this better?

_________________
Don't let honour, faith or mercy prevent your victory.
Dark Elves are merciles and effective army.

http://www.5wwwww5.com/holmansvikings/
YOUNG forum about Viking period re-enacting...


Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:00 pm
Profile YIM WWW
Witch King's Envoy
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:10 am
Posts: 1416
Location: the wild, wild west
Post 
nobody is disputing what you meant by that. It's what you said here:

Quote:
but wouldn't they rather spend worthless slaves than warriors that can actualy fight. The generals aren't stupid(unlike their mounts tend to be) you know. Would ANY self respecting general waste his real troops if he could waste slaves that can allways be taken more, via those real troops?!!! And as Teech sayed, in the book there are examples of Druchii using slaves in combat.


ANSOB and General Kala have already said enough. I just want you to see what they were adressing.


Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:56 pm
Profile
Malekith's Pet Cat
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:26 pm
Posts: 1452
Location: Prowling around the streets near London, England.
Post 
Quote:
And as Teech sayed, in the book there are examples of Druchii using slaves in combat.
Actually, they weren't used in combat at all. They were used as terrain. Pre-battle, a bunch of slaves run out and get shot down, therefore stopping the cavalry-on-an-open-plain advantage that the Brets had. They didn't really take part in the battle at all, not even as a screen.

I think that an extra slave unit for Druchii is unnecessary. If you really want slaves, DoW are right there. Duellists for cheap, unarmoured, pretty bad screens, and other things are there. An actual unit would be unfluffy, and stops the purity IMO of the Druchii. Anyway, just my thoughts, I don't want to crush ideas etc, but I just don't think it's particularly needed.

_________________
"Purrrrr...."

Venkh wrote:
I wish i had been told about the "A-Team effect" that druchii experience with their shooting.

i.e. move into position, huge ammounts of shooting, nobody gets killed.


Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:15 pm
Profile WWW
Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:53 pm
Posts: 187
Location: melbourne australia
Post 
Brave move langmann... brave move.
Slaves on a whole seem to have split people into two sides. The ones that are all for slaves, and the ones that seem to be heavily against it.
I think these reasons should summon up the debate between both sides:

Reasons for having Slaves:

1. Slaves would add a bit off colour and variety in the Dark elf army.

2. No other race seems to take part in slavery, So therefore Dark elves seem to be reperesnted as the slavers. Seeing it is such a well known thing, why not expand and make a unit!

3: They would be cheap decoy units which the Dark elves don't really have, with the exception of the warriors.


Reasons for not having slaves

1: Some argue that we don't need cheap decoy units! We've got warriors!

2:Why if we have a new unit do we need slaves! Ridiculous!



As you can see i know little about the negative side...
If you find this not true, or unreasonable post below.

_________________
As time past on, the feeling of fun
passed away like wind on a mountain...


Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:17 pm
Profile
Follower of Malal
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:37 pm
Posts: 2726
Location: Colchester, Essex (UK).
Post 
A quick reminder.

Though this is not my forum, I would ask you to take the "slaves are stupid" arguments outside. Enlightening the masses by giving them facts like Kala and myself did is fine. Telling them they're idiots because they want a slave unit is not. This topic was created and stickied for the people sensel- brave enough to want to go creating a unit of slaves for the Druchii. Make another topic about how slaves suck, or rest confident with the fact that the mod staff will probably burn anyone who steps out of line whilst posting about slaves alive. ;)

_________________
General Kala wrote:
Cenyu wrote:
Hail to the King, baby.
All my eloquence fails to express it as well as this.


Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:20 pm
Profile
Witch King's Envoy
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:10 am
Posts: 1416
Location: the wild, wild west
Post 
eh... why won't it die? :cry: I shouldn't have bumped this topic. Muse, this is just a taste of what a lot of us went through a few months ago:

Quote:
1. Slaves would add a bit off colour and variety in the Dark elf army.


We have insane screaming witch-elves that are little better than orcs, executioners who just so happen to be some of the most precise great weapon handlers alive, unrivaled fast cavalry, superb scouts, and knights who numb their senses so they can ride big nasty lizards into combat. And that's only the stuff I can remember. I know that some people want more though :roll:

Quote:
2. No other race seems to take part in slavery, So therefore Dark elves seem to be reperesnted as the slavers. Seeing it is such a well known thing, why not expand and make a unit!


Why not? Why would you send your assets into battle to die? DOW are right there for your use if you really want them.

Quote:
3: They would be cheap decoy units which the Dark elves don't really have, with the exception of the warriors.


Like I said before; ANSOB and General Kala have said enough about this issue, please read what they said.

Now multiply that by about seventy, both sides constantly talking in circles. Please let this die.


Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:18 pm
Profile
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:34 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Finland, The Land of Chill
Post 
About thos Slaves..

Anybody remembers that story in the Dark Elf 6th Edition Army Book? The Dark Elf Generals "frees" his slaves, and they run towards Bretonnian lines, who are cheering to the slaves. Half way down, the Dark Elf orders slaves to be shot. No we have a defended obstacle for the Druchii :)

This is and extremely cruel new rule:

Mounds of Dead: The Dark Elf player may skip his first round to send out the slaves. They are automatically shot either 12" or 24" of your general and generate on 4" long Defended Obstacle. Only Dark Elves can use these horrifying mounds as Defended Obstacles. Any non-Dark Elf charging a Dark Elf unit defending the mound must take a Fear test. Note that Defenders still don't autobreak.

_________________
"Remember, a Dark Elf player always wins. If not in the game, then in the style"
- Black Scars from the Sotavasara Forums

"Porn for the Porn God!"
- Nicodemus Von Traube from the Sotavasara Forums


Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:38 am
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 216
Location: Touring the Olde Worlde (UC Davis, CA)
Post 
The Mounds of Dead idea sounds great except that it is a bit too good. It should be part of those character traits that everyone is talking about. It could be the special trait for slavemaster or something.
Besides that, i don't really think the slave idea is too good. i don't think that the druchii would allow the slaves to fight with them as equals.

_________________
I will kill you until you die from it.


Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:05 am
Profile
Warrior

Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 11:57 am
Posts: 73
Location: Boston - USA
Post 
The idea I suggest for Slaves is not to have them as another unit but to have them as a upgrade to a unit.

So I buy my unit of executioners with a unit frontage 6 wide. I also purchase the slave upgrade option. This places a line of 6 slaves 1 inch in front of my unit.

Now if an enemy unit wants to shoot at me it has to kill all the slaves first.

If an enemy unit wants to charge me it has to kill the slaves and then overrun into me. (now an advantage to have wider unit frontages to elves as will be harder for a charging unit to wipe them all out)

If I want to charge an enemy then slaves are removed and I charge. Especially useful if my slaves have just stopped the enemy charge as my DE now get the charge advantage.

Anyway this is just my idea on slaves....not sure what points cost or anything you would put on this ability.

This rule would add and reinforce the fluff of the Dark Elves it also show the more itelligent way in which the Dark elves use there slaves in comparison to Skaven who actually allow theres to be armed. Also a DE General would not be thinking he is about to loose lots of slaves he would be thinking he was about to gain a whole load more. I just love the complete darkness and disregard for other races life that the Dark Elves have.

They would be nice models as well lines of dark Elves highlighted by nearly naked slaves chained together just in front of there units. I would also model the blood cauldron with a line of slaves slowy being led into it.


Fri May 12, 2006 1:11 pm
Profile
Trademaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 3170
Location: Ontario, Canada
Post 
Oh langmann... !lol! I love you. What a great idea. I thought about posting one and assuming it to be master thread, but feared the lynch mob! :P

Seriously, I just started making a list last night based off of this. I came across it in AB awhile ago. Black Sea Dragons are so cool. I made a list and it's actually fluffy. It uses a crap load of slaves, more than Skaven! :lol:

Wolfheart, that idea is so grand. Nice work. :)

Fr0

_________________
Trading Forum


Fri May 12, 2006 4:11 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:34 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Finland, The Land of Chill
Post 
Fr0 wrote:

Wolfheart, that idea is so grand. Nice work. :)

Fr0


Can I smell some sarcasm, Fr0? :)

PS. That emoticon looks like a pervert ^^

_________________
"Remember, a Dark Elf player always wins. If not in the game, then in the style"
- Black Scars from the Sotavasara Forums

"Porn for the Porn God!"
- Nicodemus Von Traube from the Sotavasara Forums


Mon May 29, 2006 7:54 pm
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:34 pm
Posts: 192
Location: Denmark
Post 
To be honest I have mixed feelings about the concept of Slaves. On the one hand, it would be quite fluffy, and it could provide the Dark Elves with a cheap speedbump type unit that could be sacrificed without it costing 200+ pts. On the other hand, somehow I don't see it as a very good idea to add such a sacrificial unit to the Dark Elf army, specifically because it is such a type of unit. Fluffwise, there are also some problems with it, seen from my point of view.

Naggarroth is not exactly placed smack in the middle of the Old World, and hence it is realistic to believe that unless someone would go to Naggarroth in order to fight the Druchii, the only time almost all of the Warhammer armies would run into a Druchii army, is when one such engages in a raid. Slaves taken under such circumstances would likely be dragged back to the Black Ark more or less immediately, and before disappearing into the bowls of such a behemoth, the victims will not have been prisoners for any serious amount of time. Considdering this, I find it unlikely that such slaves could be forced to actively fight a potential rescuer beyond the point of being used as a living shield at spearpoint. When first in Naggarroth, after being broken in body and spirit, slaves could likely be forced to do anything, but until then I just can't see them as anything but shields.

If we want to add Slaves to the Dark Elf army, I do have a suggestion though. First of all I would suggest it as a highly limited unit with virtually no combat skills, and requireing some sort of handler. This could either be (Version A) a Hero type character "Slavemaster" where each Slavesmaster would allow the the purchase of a single unit of slaves up to i.e. 20 models, or alternatively, a the unit could be (Version B) 0-1 Special with champion type handlers that each allow for up to 10 slave models to be purchased for the unit. In order to move the slaves, I'd apply the Stupidity rule to the unit, and let them test on the Slavemasters Ld, possibly +1 per slavemaster (champion version).

Version A:
Slavemaster Hero - 60 pts. (+ equipment)
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 6 6 4 3 2 7 3 9
Hate High Elves

Slaves - A Slavemaster can herd forward a mob of up to 20 slaves, at 3 pts. per model. A Slave unit fights as a single Skirmish unit with the Slave Master moving within 4" of the unit at all times.

Herding the Mob - In order to get the Slaves to move in the desired direction, roll a Ld test for the Slavemaster at the beginning of each round. If the test fails, the Slavemaster fails to get the unit to act as desired this turn, and the unit will move 1D6" in a random direction (determine direction with a scatter dice, a Hit means that the unit remains stationary (the Slavemaster may move though, as long as he stays within 4" of the unit).

Let them die... - If the slave unit is engaged in combat, the unit will fight at best it is able. Engaging the unit, however, does not cause the Slavemaster to be engaged in the combat, unless he specifically is hit by the charging enemy. Likewise, a Slavemaster does not have to flee along with the mob of Slaves, but if he does not, the unit will automatically be destroyed at the beginning of the next Dark Elf turn (without their jailor to keep them in line, the slaves make for the hills...).

Don't kill the innocent... - Unlike normal units, Slaves are innocent people, most often of the same race as the enemies attacking the Dark Elf army. One thing is having to kill the enemy, it's an entirely different thing to have to kill your fellow countrymen. At the end of the game, determine the state of the Slave unit as normal, but where a normal unit earns the enemy VP for it's destruction, a Slave unit SUBTRACTS their value from the enemy's total VP score. The two exceptions to this rule, is if the Slaves ran away and the Slavemaster didn't follow them (leading to the destruction of the unit at the beginning of the next turn...), and if the Slavemaster is killed before all the slaves are dead. In either of these cases, the enemy earns full VP for the Slave unit.


Run for it people... - If the Slavemaster is killed at any point before his unit is destroyed, the slaves will make a run for it, and the unit counts as destroyed, earning the enemy full VP for it's destruction (or rescue if you will...).

Slave - 3 pts./model (max. 20 models)
M WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
4 1 1 2 2 1 2 1 3 None



Version B
0-1 Special
Slave - 3 pts./model (max. 10 models per Slavemaster)
M WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
4 1 1 2 2 1 2 1 3 None

Slavemaster - 25 pts./model
M WS BS S T W I A Ld Save
5 5 5 4 3 1 6 2 8 6+
Light Armour, Whip (Hand Weapon)

Hearding the Mob - Before moving, roll a Ld test, using the Slavemaster's Ld value. If the test is passed, the unit moves as normal. If the test is failed, the unit remains where it is this turn.

Taking up the rear - All Slavemasters always make up the rear rank(s) of a unit of Slaves (unless the Slaves are directly charged from the Rear...).

You will stay right there... - If engaged in combat, use the Ld value of the Slavemaster(s) when making psychology tests of any kind.

Run for it guys... - If at any point there are more than 10 Sslave models per Slavemaster in the unit, the unit is destroyed. The Slaves overpower their oppressors and make a run for it.

Don't kill the innocent... - Unlike normal units, Slaves are innocent people, most often of the same race as the enemies attacking the Dark Elf army. One thing is having to kill the enemy, it's an entirely different thing to have to kill your fellow countrymen. At the end of the game, determine the state of the Slave unit as normal, but where a normal unit earns the enemy VP for it's destruction, a Slave unit SUBTRACTS their value from the enemy's total VP score. The only exception to this rule, is if the unit was destroyed because it overpowered the Slavemasters (due to outnumbering them more than 10 to 1) and ran off. In this case, the enemy gains full VP for the unit as normal.


Anyway, my take on Slaves...


/Kyrel


Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:41 pm
Profile
Highborn

Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:30 pm
Posts: 614
Location: The duke's forest (yes that's the name of the town I live in)
Post 
The Liger wrote:
Quote:
And as Teech sayed, in the book there are examples of Druchii using slaves in combat.
Actually, they weren't used in combat at all. They were used as terrain. Pre-battle, a bunch of slaves run out and get shot down, therefore stopping the cavalry-on-an-open-plain advantage that the Brets had. They didn't really take part in the battle at all, not even as a screen.


They were, just not in that story. In the history story (the one by Furion) is written something like: "spearheaded by drugged and screaminghuman slave warriors" seems clear to me

Personally, I like plantagenet's idea best


Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:23 pm
Profile
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:29 pm
Posts: 358
Location: on the wrong side of a town in the middle of Finland
Post 
hmm...

slavespiles:
(here is my idea)

1-5
10pts for each (taken from the magic item allowance of a single character)

each pile is 2 inch by 3 inch area of difficult ground that must be placed after both armies have been deployed. But before the first turn, within LOS of the character who brought the slavepiles.
EDIT: and it doesn't block LOS

nice and simple..
note that I haven't playtested these so this is just an idea (silly idea I might add).

anyhow-whatever-bye

_________________
"If they're better at the game than you are, change the rules."


Last edited by Mennorach on Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:53 pm
Profile
Modest Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:15 pm
Posts: 2446
Location: Somewhere in Denmark
Post 
Kyrel wrote:
Don't kill the innocent... - Unlike normal units, Slaves are innocent people, most often of the same race as the enemies attacking the Dark Elf army. One thing is having to kill the enemy, it's an entirely different thing to have to kill your fellow countrymen. At the end of the game, determine the state of the Slave unit as normal, but where a normal unit earns the enemy VP for it's destruction, a Slave unit SUBTRACTS their value from the enemy's total VP score. The two exceptions to this rule, is if the Slaves ran away and the Slavemaster didn't follow them (leading to the destruction of the unit at the beginning of the next turn...), and if the Slavemaster is killed before all the slaves are dead. In either of these cases, the enemy earns full VP for the Slave unit.


A fine idea, but exceptions should be made: Ogres, Orcs, Vampire Counts, Chaos(in all forms), Tomb Kings, Skaven


Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:40 pm
Profile
Highborn

Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:30 pm
Posts: 614
Location: The duke's forest (yes that's the name of the town I live in)
Post 
maybe slavepiles should cause a panic test to any non DE unit ending it's movement on them, and it would be fun if you could hide shades in them the way assassins hide in units :D


Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:39 pm
Profile
Trademaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 3170
Location: Ontario, Canada
Post 
Wolfheart wrote:
Can I smell some sarcasm, Fr0? :)

PS. That emoticon looks like a pervert ^^


Oops, I didn't reply to this back then. I was being serious. I like that list.
And leave my emoticon alone. :D

I think the Slaver Raid is perfect.

Fr0

_________________
Trading Forum


Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:46 pm
Profile ICQ WWW
Black Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:01 am
Posts: 273
Location: South of West-Flanders
Post 
I kinda like the experimental slave rules put about here, but there was something else I wanted to point out.

I know this doesn't quite fit in with the rest, but all slave topics had to go here so...

In the story a Slave's Tale, there is a part (end of first column and begin of second column) where you can find alot of resemblance to nazi concentration camps. First time I had read it, I was kind of chocked. I know that this is just fiction and fantasy, but I find it a bit unresponsible of the publishers that they let something like this in the army book. Just out of respect for the people who suffered and died there.

Of course Druchii are crude and very evil etc. but they could have left the slave tale out. The story is great, well written and so, but a bit immoral. The suffering of slaves could have been pictured differently.

Any thoughts on this one?

_________________
On my signal...unleash Hell.


Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:03 am
Profile
Trademaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 3170
Location: Ontario, Canada
Post 
Neves wrote:
Any thoughts on this one?


I don't think it referenced Nazis. I think it referenced slaves, not black ones, not Egyptian ones; all sorts of races, human, orc, and other races he didn't recognize.

Fr0

_________________
Trading Forum


Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:04 am
Profile ICQ WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 62 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software