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Ant's new non SoC cult list 2250pts *Updated: Game 1: Asur* 
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Lord of the Venom Sword
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Now that Pompey and the Dutch GT are over, I'm starting to consider what to do with my Cult for 7th edition. Since the cult isn't always going to be legal I've been working on a Slaanesh themed vanilla list. My kipper will have a summoning circle built around him in order to act as a cauldron of blood, and my devoted can act as exes (they're made from sisters repentia, so look more like they have great weapons than xtra hws).

I can't get a 2000pt army that I like at the moment, so I'm leaving that for now (I've got plenty of other stuff at 2k I can use anyway). However, I have got a 2250pt list that I am happy with. It is a little unconventional, and goes against the wisdom of D.net in a few areas (most obviously the highborn; Ras, you ain't gonna like him mate!), but bear with me.

Here's the list:
Highborn, rides a Dark Pegasus, Heavy armour, SDC, enchanted shield, talisman of protection,
VENOM SWORD (yay!) 295pts

Beastmaster on manticore, light armour, SDC, seal of Ghrond 267pts

Sorceress, 2 scrolls 140pts

21 spearelves, shields, banner 178pts

13 rxbelves, shields, muso 161pts

5 DRs, rxbs 120pts

16 Witchelves, banner, hag, witchbrew 257pts

11 executioners, draich-master, muso 139pts

6 COK, banner, warbanner 217pts

5 shades 70pts

rbt 100pts

rbt 100pts

Cauldron of blood 205pts

Total 2249pts
92 models
3PD/4DD+2 scrolls


Right then, I will now attempt to answer the obvious key question about the list before it is asked (it is also convienient that the rest of the selection follows on fairly naturally from this question too).

What the hell is up with that highborn?

OK, before I wrote this list I was determined to use the venom sword. This meant taking a highborn and giving it to him. The rest of his magic item slots were spent on as much protection as I could get. I know it's not much and if anyone's got any better ideas than a 6+ ward and 2+ armour save for 25pts I'm open to suggestions.

With the venom sword I had myself an ogre or larger size monster hunter. I now needed to make him reliable. Hence the cauldron of blood. with the cauldron's reroll I can be reasonably confident of making at least 2 wounds stick on T4 stuff or 1 on T5 stuff. With the venom sword's ability this is all that should be needed to generate the kills. It's not all that unlikely to be able to kill a dragon either, although given the choice I'd rather skewer one with rbt fire.

So I've increased the venom sword's power potential and made it worth taking. Now I need to deliver it. So why have I chosen a DP over a steed or manticore, (especially since i want a manti in the list anyway)? Well I can't go for the manticore because of the cost really. It puts over 400pts into one model and gives the enemy an obvious target that will ruin me if I lose it. Also, the manticore is best used as a rank breaker, but I want my highborn fighting monsters (and going in the front a lot of the time), so much of the manticore's potential is lost. Much better to have the highborn on his own and a seperate rank breaker in the form of the beastmaster, giving the enemy 2 threats to worry about (I also think that the cheaper manticore rider is likely to attract more fire than my highborn). I could have gone for a dark steed, but then what happens if I fluff my attacks, or don't beat the toughness of the monsters with the venom sword's roll? The enemy attacks my squishy highborn and kills him. With a DP I have the small cushion of the DPs 2 S5 attacks, but more importantly, when the enemy attacks back, they are likely to hit the DP, thinking it to be an easier target than the highborn (something I've found to be of use with my chaos exalted on deamon steed; people always chose to hit the steed rather than the rider, despite the rider being easier to hurt!). I also have an effective 3+ ward against shooting as well since if the DP dies I can just run around and join an infantry unit or use my 10" move to charge some monsters anyway.

So that's it really, the rest of the army is there to complement the rest really. The rbts and manticore can help draw enemies into the rfz of the cauldron as well as kill shooting or draw fire away from my highborn. The scroll caddy is nessecary since I only have the single slot left for a caster. Since I've seen the new ruling I'm tempted by the armour of darkness on the BM but at the moment think the 4th DD is needed. Witches and exes work really well with the cauldron. The exes will go either 6-5 mostly or 5-5-1 depending on the amount of enemy shooting. The witches will go 5-5-5-1. I've gone for witchbrew over the conventional manbane for 2 reasons: 1, it's unexpected, and 2, with only one unit of DRs, frenzy could prove a problem (plus it will be easier to get flanked in 7th). With witchbrew and 4 witches on the side (assuming I haven't lost any to shooting of course), I can be pretty confident of holding for the turn or so that will be needed. I almost gave this unit the warbanner instead of the COKs, but decided it was already costly enough and it would be just as useful on the COK (thoughts?). Saddes are always useful, although harpies could be good too. The shades won because I already have the models! The COK will either act as a reserve or as a hammer type threat to push up with the characters depending on if I decide to go offensive or defensive. The spears are there to add some reliable static combat res that isn't going to go away because there are already plenty of tasty targets for the enemy before they even start to think about whittling down the spears, and the rxbs arethere because they've performed great in my cult army; a real multi purpose unit, it's resilient, gives me a real firebase, protects rbts and can handle themselves up close or even take a flank. Never leave home without em. :D

So, what do you guys think? Will these strange seletions work or does it need a rethink? How many of you want to strangle me for putting the venoom sword in a serious list? All feedback is welcome, just try not to insult me too much (please?!)!

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Ash010110 wrote:
I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)


Last edited by Ant on Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:07 am, edited 4 times in total.



Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:18 pm
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Well it's certainly an unusual spearhead ;). However I do rather like the rest of your list (including the Warbanner where it is) meaning that my attention is mostly focused on the area you're expecting the most feedback on.

I can't disagree with the logic of your HB against OK but against armies that aren't Ogres do you think you'll find that it feels like you've wasted points? If it feels like you've wasted points when facing other forces you may end up either hating the setup before it's had full use or sending it against *anything* to try and get it's points back (not that I'd really expect either of those behavioural patterns from you given your experience).

(oh and you forgot to put the manticore in your initial list write up btw)

As a slight aside I fitted my CoS into a Woodies list so it's good to know that these freaks and perverts will still by running around on more than one battlefield when the list is no longer legal :).

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Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:32 pm
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nice thought with the highborn, but charging a monster unit with him in 7th will get him killed. no clipping. you will have to contact 3 models. in the flank would still do the trick though.

with regards to witchbrew, am i right in thinking you will still lose your ranks?? they just won't get the +1 for a flank? the war banner on them would be good.

why 21 spearelves? spare points or just a saftey cusion against shooting? i'd like to see the 13x-bows dropped to 12 with a banner. banner, rank, hill possibly outnumber and stand+shoot is enough to scare off even the best fast cav.

i think you know my ideas on COK's. nekkid as they come for me.


have a play with it and see how you do. i think you'll end up dropping the venom sword though

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Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:36 pm
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I have used the Venom Sword in a couple of tournaments actually, and it is a nice combat multipler against Ogres and Minos that are usually feilded. And I have even had sucesses against some monsters, Hydras, Mantis and Hippogrifs and Griffons. The problem is usually the possible Armour save... Getting the reroll from the caludron is a nice touch that I didn't consider, and I like it.

The rest of the list looks solid enough, I guess you just forgot to add the Manticore to the Beastmaster, the points is included. but it's not written in the list.. ;)

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Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:58 am
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drop witchbrew and take manbane. the feeble bonus you get from witchbrew is more then compensated for the extra wounds the hag does with manbane. frankly i dont agreee with your reasoning there. manbane is always better

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Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:13 am
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Thanks for the replies!

Yep, i forgot to add the manti, list has been edited.

Amarel: Obviously I will have wasted points against armies without good venom sword targets. However, How many of those armies are there? Ogres, chaos (all types), Lizards, dark elves, woodies, o&g, all almost always field monsters of some description. The VS works on chariots so that gives me VC, high elves, TKs etc too. Yes many of these things can be dealt with by other means but it will be very rare that the HB will have no use at all. Even brets have 2 wound peg knights or even a hippogriff! Agaiinst armies without great targets the HB is still useful. Ld10 is always handy, he can still take on light units (another reason for the DP), and everyone will expect the GoP so I can threaten knights with him too.

Benji: I don't think he will get killed. He is pretty likely to take out 2 monsters, then he's bound to survive the return attacks (although I'd think twice about putting him into the front of S7 dragon ogres or kroxis). It is likely that the monsters will try to kill the DP to get outnumber with fear which plays into my hands since if the DP dies there are less monsters in b2b with the HB on a smaller base for the next round (where I go 1st of course). Also if I go into an even numbered unit of monsters I only contact 2 (since I have to charge the centre), and I can charge another unit in with him so only 2 monsters are in contact. Obviously flank would be better though as it is less likely to go wrong, but I don't think it is as much risk as you think.

21 spearelves for the cushion against shooting, keeping the static res reliable (of course 20 is needed for full ranks in 7th anyway). The banner idea is nice but I am really liking 13 rxbs, means I can go 7-6, keep my rank for longer and get a decent amount of attacks from the front, allowing me to be aggressive with them while they're not seen as much of a threat by the enemy without a banner. Knowing how aggressively I use them I'd tend to shy away from the banner since there are instances where I'd expect to lose them and not reclaim the banner. And my COK's staying bigger and better than yours (read ito that what you will!) :D .

Zeb: nice to hear that the idea has had success already, even without the CoB. I know armour will be the problem, but unlike most HBs, he's not meant to be anti armour. That's the job of the exes, rbts and static combat res. The HB should be able to help herd the armour towards that stuff though

Linda: I don't want manbane. If the champion can attack it means the enemy is in the front and I'm happy anyway. My problem is flank/rear attacks. I have witchbrew to save me in these situations. I would go for warbanner but the CoKs already have it and witchbrew is just as good if engaged in the flank and better if in the rear (or on a hill or outnumbered). I really don't think manbane is that useful. with the cauldron I'll get a good amount of wounds against low armored troops anyway and against tin cans (who are usually T3, possibly 4), the strength bonus isn't really enugh to negate the advantages ofthe armour. And anything manbane will threaten will just kill the hag in the 1st round anyway. Manbane may make the unit a (slightly) better hammer, but witchbrew makes it more reliable, and useable as an anvil IMO.

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Ash010110 wrote:
I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)


Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:01 pm
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Anty Baby ;), good to see you sticking with the list. Its, ummm, different... :P

Your right I aint a huge fan of the HB. Or rather I wouldn't want to use him, but I am glad you are, because it would be damned hypocritical of you to not use it (thinking about it its very good against Swarms and Spirit hosts). The only thing I don't like about it is the Pegy. I don't see it as a wise way to go. The Dark Steed, being on a smaller base has its advantages (such as fighting only one Krox) but also grants you a 1+ save, or 0+ against shooting and lets you hide him better come 7th. My HB on a horse has only got a 1+ save for protection and only rarely dies (often to silly things like skinks). Part of the problem I can see with the peg is that the enemy does attack the Peg, killing it, breaking you and then easily runnign you down, which puts you in the same position you are if you have your head chopped of by giant sword or such...

Oh and 11 Exes + DM cost 133pts, unless you have a Muso in there that you haven't written down ;)...

Slightly disapointed to see you not using the spears in 7x3. That would have been a giggle :P...

Overall I do like the list, its big, but then I see its 2250 and I think at what I should fit in with a further 250pts (I am really loving my 2150 at the moment, its working really well). For downsizing I recormend chucking the Witches in the bin. You say you are using your devoted as Exces, so you have no need for witches in a re-using models sense.

Good Times,

Ras

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Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:08 am
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Linda is right... IMO..

manbane is always better. If someone gets a charge on the flank or rear of your witches they are dead anyway.

I personally feel that manbane is probably the best upgrade for the DE list... and one of the best in all of warhammer. You're getting a champion model that can deal more dmg then a hero for a cheap bill.

4 str 4, 5 or 6 attacks is insane for how cheap it is.

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Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:06 am
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oompaloompa: I must say I disagree. i think manbane is unlikely to do more than 1 more wound than without, and thte witchbrew would help against outnumber too. And If charged in the flank witches aren't aways dead. For example, 5 DRs should kill 2-3 witches. Say they kill 3. I get 1 to attack back and kill a DR. I have outnumber, banner and a wound = +3 CR. The DRs have 3 wounds and flank. With witchbrew It's a draw, without I ose by oone. As I said, the witchbrew is there to help me hold fora turn before I get the countercharge in. Losing by 1 less than I should helps tremendously in this regard.

Ras: Thought you'd dislike the peggie. The main reason he's there though is the extra attacks as a fall back and so I can confidently break light stuff. But with the CoB perhaps he isn't needed. I was actually toying with the idea of a cold one so I have an even better armour save and cause fear. Causiing fear will come in handy when I fluff my attacks against monster units so I won't autobreak but more importantly helps vs ridden monsters. What I see happening here is I kill the monster and win combat in round 1 but can't get past the armour save of the rider. Causing fear means the rider will autobreak if I kill the beast. Not a bad idea methinks. The problem of course is the significant speed reduction (as well as the ever present threat of stupidity). The other argument for the peg is if i fight cannons or bolt throwers they will be able to target me in 7th really easily and having a peg means they will have a harder time killing the HB with these guns if he's on a peg. Plus gamezone do a very nice DP model!

The exes do have a muso. I made a right hash of copying the list down didn't I? :D

I hadn't thought of losing the witches for 2000. Could be a good idea, but then having a cauldron but no witches... Makes the cauldron worth less IMO too. I think you're right though, they are the sensible thing to lose, but I still don't like that version at 2k either.

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I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)


Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:58 pm
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I reckon that your characs are fine as they are. However, im not sure about the 21 spearelves or the 13 Rxb elves. Plz, take them down to even numbers, and use the points elsewhere. Also, reduce the Witch unit to 12, and use points to expand Execs. The Execs need numbers a lot more than the Witch Elves, who, with a 6-elf frontage, will kick ass just as well as if there are 16 of them, esp. with CoB effects. And, just one more thing. Obviously this is a Khainite army. So where are the Harpies?

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Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:14 pm
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@sai'cet: I surgest you re-read what Ant has been saying all along. He had explained everything you have commented on already. The only thing he hasn't addressed is the desire of a Big Exce unit, and I would certainly expect that when making a stateent like that you would explain why you think what you do, because I certainly don't agree with what you are saying.

@Ant: You know me and my tastes too well :P. Oddly enough I was thinking of the CO for exactly the same reason. The Fear (and the 0+ ;)). Primarily the fear though, not just for autobreaking the rider (hasn't thought of that) but for not being autobroken by Ogre type units if the dice go real bad. Also makes you more likely to charge, but it is slow and it is stupid, neither of which are particularly helpful factoids. Either of the steeds (Horse or Lizard) have the real advantage of being able to hide in units. I know the Peg will save you getting your rider dead if hit by a Cannon, but you should be able to dodge the cannon shot in a list like yours. I certainly do think the CO is a tempting mount, and certainly a better way to go then for a Pegy. That said I would rather ride a bloody dwarf then a Peg...

I do see what you mean about the Witches though, loosing them does somewhat reduce the need for the CoB. What about loosing the CoB? That would get you most of the way (but then whats the point in a unit of Witches of that size without a COB...) ;)...

Ras

P.S. You also forgot to write RXBs on the DR unit, unless they have gone up by 6pths a model oer the past couple of days... ;)

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Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:02 pm
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Right, OK, from now on I'll get my cat to copy lists from AB to Dnet, I'm sure she'd do a much better job than I have!

Sai'cet: What Ras said. You obviously haven't read the thread in it's entirety or even the title Since you think it is a Khaine list. It isn't. It is a Cult of Slaanesh list made without using the SoC book. So no need for harpies.

The exes are just there as a cheap force multiplyer/ flanking unit that can deal with tin cans, threaten characters to a degree and are cheap enough to act as bait if need be. The witches or spears (or even rxbs) can provide some static res for them if need be.

Ras: I think I'll just have to try out both options for the HB. IfI can keep him alive and get him where I want on the CO I think that will be the way to go. But I do still like the peggie. Too bad i can't have a dwarf, that wuld be great fun to model :D .

You've hit the nail right on the head in regards to dropping stuff, It all interlinks so nicely as it is. Losiing the CoB makes the venom sword too unreliable, as well as the witches being a bit useless. i was actually thinking along the lines of the COK, but then the list becomes far too slow and the characters are too obvious as targets. Perhaps the best optin would be the rxbs and the exes? Oh no, can't do that because of core requiremments. Damn. Maybe the exes and an rbt?

I think I'll have to stick with 2250 for now!

It's wierd, I can't make a 2250 cult list I like but go vanilla and i can't make a 2000 one. Suppose I'll have to use the cult at 2000 and vanilla at 2250 for a while!

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I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)


Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:58 pm
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Interesting list! It just seems a little toy-oriented for my taste. Very expensive toys, at that.

I did read your summary for all the units and why you have included them, but they seem to operate on their own a bit.

Here's a couple of questions about the playing of this list:

How would you form a battle line with all your units?
How could you get combo charges with no serious frontal threats?
You have speed, but can your other units keep up with the fast ones to lend support?


Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:25 am
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I got to try the list out today! I played Georges's high elves, his list is around somewhere but I'll give a summary of it here.

He had: lord on Dragon (2+ rerollable save), 2 lv2s (3 scrolls+ RoF), 15 helms FC+warbanner, 2x5 helms, 6 helms w/ banner, 5 Dragon Princes, 2x 5 shadow warriors, 2 chariots, 3 eagles.

Deployment: I deployed the rbts and rbts on a hill on my right flank, COKs to the right, Infantry + cauldron to the left of it. The DRs went in the centre (infront of the witch elves). The highborn went in the centre and the manti went on the hill on the right.
George put the eagles and wizards behind a wood on my right, the 6 helms on the right (facing the COK), the 15 helm unit went fairly central with DPs and a unit of 5 helms infront, 2 chariots went to the left of them and the dragon and last helm unit went on the left flank with a wood blocking the LoS of my rbts.
Shadow warriors went in a wood on the right and behind a building on the left/centre. My shades deplyed normally so they could see and were in short rangeof the shdow warriors on the left.

I won 1st turn and decided to take it since George had no shooting (I must say that I intend giving 1st turn to my opponent most of the time with this army though).

Turn 1

The rxbs, manti and COK move forward a bit (the COK denying the unit of 6 helms most of the board). The infantry moves forward a little and the DRs move slightly further left (this was a mistake; I should have kept them in front of the WEs to stop them from frenzy charging). The HB moves out towards the left flank, staying out of charge range. Magic does nothing (well, I only have a lv1 so I don't expect much!). Shooting kills a shadow warrior on the left and 2 silver helms from the unit of 6.

George moves the 3 eagles out from behind the hill infront of me in order to threaten my firebase. The dragon and helms on the left advance (dragon staying out of LoS of the HB). The centre holds back a bit though, keeping the same formation. Magic gets a 6s to hit spell on the big helm unit. Shooting kills a couple of DRs and hurts the manti.

Turn 2

The WEs are forced to charge an eagle who holds. The exes and COK charge the other eagles, both of which flee. The DRs move into charge range of a chariot and the left helms. The manti moves behind the central small helm unit but can't quite get out of LoS of the big unit (I'm hoping the WEs will overrun into the DPs and prevent the big unit from wheeling). The HB moves to the side of the dragon. In the shooting phase the rxbs kill a shadow warrior in the wood allowing me to shoot the wizard in the same wood. Both rbts shoot the wizard and kill him (this was also a mistake. A big one; I should have shot the central silver helm unit that was threatening the WEs flank if I didn't overrun far enough). In combat the WEs easily kill the eagle but the overrun is pitifully short and I don't reach the DPs. Uh Oh...

Georges turn the DPs and helms both charge the WEs (helms in the flank). A chariot and helms on the left charge the DRs. The helms on the right march past the COK. The 15 helms charge the manti who flees. The shadow warriors on the right fail their terror test because of the manti and flee right in front of the COK (where George wanted them anywa, how annoying!). Both eagles rally. The left Shadow warriors move infront of the spears, blocking a charge on the units that just charged the DRs. The dragon moves behind the spears (into the sights of my rbts). Magic is stopped (and the ring of fury runs out!). Dragon breath kills 5 spearelves. In combat the WEs are broken and rundown (but I still maintain witchbrew was worth it- it saved me the flank and outnumber and made the test passable, it just so happenned I failed! If I had remembered to shoot the silver helms I'd have probably won too). The DRs are wiped out but no overruns are made.

Turn 3

The HB charges the leftmost helms who flee, the spears charge the shadow warriors in front. The manti rallies. The COK turn to face the helms on the right flank (and block any charge on my firebase). The exes move to threaten the flank of the big SH unit. The wizard moves in front of the DP unit that chased down the WEs, blocking a charge on the cauldron and the rxbs move into a flanking position on the DPs. In the shooting phase I fire everything I have at the dragon and do diddly squat, even though the rbts are hitting on 2s! in combat the shadow warriors are wiped out but the spears can't overrun because the HB is in the way.

Georges turn. The dragon and a chariot charge the spearelves (dragon in the rear). The other chariot charges the HB. The DPs charge the wizard. The fleeing helms rally. The unit of 15 helms turns to face the exes and an eagle sits on the side of the unit preventing the manti from charging the flank because it can't fit in without hitting a wood or the eagle. the other eagle move up to again threaten my rbts.In combat the DPs break and run down the wizard, hitting the cauldron. The Dragon kills 4spearelves but the chariot only gets 1 and the spears do 3 back (thanks to the cauldron!). I lose by 2 but fail the break test and get run down despite the highborn being right next to me. The chariot that charged the highborn kills the DP from under him but then the venom sword does it's job and kills the chariot (who needs S7?!). My overrun takes me next to the dragon.

Turn 4

The rxbs charge the DPs in the flank and the HB charges the dragon. The COK charge the helms on the right who flee off the board so I can't capture their standard (cowardly Asur!). The exes charge the 15 helms,the manti charges the eagle but the eagle fails its terror test so I redirect into the flank of the unit of 15. The shades move up so they can shoot the last wizard (who's also the general and pure of heart!). They are off target though and do no damage. The rbts both have flank shots on different helm units but both ony kill 2 so they can still take flanks, damn! (Oh well, at least I hurt something this turn!). Onto combat. The DPs lose to the cauldron and rxbs, break but I don't catch them. The manti and exes kill 5 silver helms (the champion twice!), win by 5 but the Asur pass the test (they needed a 3!). No matter, we now have the best part of the game. The highborn hits the dragon 3 times, but only gets 1 wound despite the rerolls. The dragon fails its armour save, takes its toughness test and... Falls over dead!!! I win by 6 but fail to catch the lord. HAH!! WHO SAYS THE VENOM SWORD AIN'T WORTH IT'S POINTS NOW??!!! YAAAAAAYYYYYY!!!!! *Dances around the room celebrating!*

Georges turn and 3 helms charge the rxbs in the rear and 3 charge the exes in the rear. The eagle charges an rbt and the last chariot charges the highborn. The other eagle rallys, as does the prince. In The DPs fail their test though and run off the table. Combat the eagle breaks the rbt, the helms beat the rxbs by 2 but I hold. The chariot gets 2 wounds past my highborn's armour, but the talisman of protection saves 1. I attack back and now it's Venom Sword-3; Asur-0. The big combat with the helms, BM and exes next. I lose 3 exes before they can strike but the BM pulls down 2 and the exes then reply by killing a massive 5 silver helms, including 2 at the back. Serves em right for not running off last turn. They run this turn though and are caught by the manti. The exes hit the prince

Turn 5

The HB chases off an eagle and the COK move back onto the board. The cauldron crew charge the helms in the rear of the rxbs (they could do this and still be within 1" of the caudron). Shooting kills 2 shadow warriors. In combat the rxbs and cauldron crew break the helms (only 1 left now so he can't rally). The exes had obviously tired themselves out carving up all those silver helms so couldn't get a killing blow on the prince. The prince though chopped up 3, won by 1, breaking them and running them down (despite the general being nearby again!).

George now charges the prince into the BM on manti. The eagle comes back on. The prince is obviously on a roll: he knocks the BM off the top of the manti, who then misses with all 4 attacks. Again I lose by 1, and again I'm off. How annoying.

Turn 6

I try to scare George into fleeing with a couple of just out of range charges. But he's having none of it and holds. The manti keeps running. I then try to wipe the smug look off of the princes face with an rbt bolt but miss.

George's turn he gets a steed of shadows charge on the remaining rbt and kills it.


RESULT: Minor Victory

This was a great result for my 1st game with this army and I'm very pleased with the result considering the mistakes I made early on with lost me my WEs and forced me to sacrifice my mage. It would have been a much bigger victory if the prince hadn't run riot in the last 2 turns killing everything he touched! This game has already taught me quite a bit about this army:

1) The venom sword is amazing!
2) chariots are great targets for my HB. He can take a charge, lose his mount then run around enemy lines with 360 sight.
3) The venom sword is amazing!
4) I'm liking the peg. In this game its mobility allowed me to catch the dragon and its loss gave me 360 veiw, niether of which I'd have with a cold one. However, George knew I had the venom sword so was trying to keep the dragon away, it may be easier to catch it if my opponent doesn't know I have it.
5) I need more practice in controlling frenzied troops in an army like DEs with few throwaway units. i could have easily saved them in this game but didn't
6) The venom sword is amazing!
7) Exes are much better than i thought they'd be with the cauldron reroll. Hatred helped too but they really can dish out some damage. I'm seriously considering swapping the WEs for another unit, But then I've not really given the WEs a proper run yet so I'll save that decision for a while.
8) I'm thinking harpies may be a better choice than shades. I am low on machine hunters and mostly pretty slow. I think the extra mobility and attacks of the harpies could be much more useful than the shades shooting. They'll make great magehunters with the cauldron too. I think I'll look into getting some.
9) Did I mention? The venom sword is amazing! ;)

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I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)


Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:48 am
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DarkElvis: i did have a nice long tactical reply to your post but my computer crashed so you'll have to put up with this one instead.

There are many different deployment setups I can utilise with this army. However most of them will have 3 main areas: the infantry, the firebase, and the COK. The characters, DRs etc have a pretty free reign really since they act as monster hunters and force multipliers. The exes are also an elment I can mess around with regarding their place in the line.

I don't envisage this list beiing hevy on combi chaeges. I'm thinking more of being able to break enemy units in a single round or holding for a round and counter charging. Of course occassionally combi charges will be nesecary and I'd be looking to use the characters, DRs and exes as force multiplyers. Or perhaps combi charging an infantry unit and the COK after the COK have already broken through and gotten to the flank/ rear of the enemy.

I don't see this list as a speedy list at all. Yes i have fast components but they are more to be used in support of the slow stuff rather than the other way around. The COK will be in a reserve role in many games and I don't intend to commit the characters until the infantry are in position. obviously this approach will have to change against heavy shooting armies however (I think i will have a very difficult time against shooty dwarfs).

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I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)


Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:05 am
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Nice report Ant! It and your response helped me get a little handle on how that list works.

I think you are right about the WE's, but you may just want to knock them down to 12 with no banner and see how you like them when they are a little less expensive. Another executioner unit, now that could be interesting!

Looking at what you played against, I can see the value of your units and of course the Venom Sword! Is that Asur list very typical of the power level in your area?


Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:27 am
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Ant: good times! Seems we were all wrong. *Bows* Thats a fairly effective piece of kit. Now we just gotta see some more reps and some more big time kills!

I eagerly await more reps...

Ras

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:20 am
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Quote:
The cauldron crew charge the helms in the rear of the rxbs (they could do this and still be within 1" of the caudron).

The crew can't charge, the crew and the cauldron counts as one unit, and since the cauldron can not move, the entier unit can't move, (i.e. in the same way as if a character on foot joined a unit of knights, then they'd have to move 5).

I like symetry, and would thus prefer to have the spearmen 20, archers 12 etc...

Yes I know that you have your reasons for fielding them in the way they are, but is it worth it? does the extra spearman contribute much? Is two more shots, one more attack in CC significant for the archers?

Witchelves are great with, and withouth the cauldron, but I don't see any good reason for fielding 16 of them, I'd go with 10-12, yes ranks can be usefull, but it is expencive, yes these points may not be spent bether in other places, but you lose a lot of mobility, e.g. you are more likley to overrun out of LoS with a smaller units, you have an easier time making nifty charges (i.e. wheeling), it also reduces the amount of enemy models in base contact when you get flank charged...

I will once again state that manbane is better then witch brew, I have had tremendous sucess with it, with the cauldron , the chance to wound against almost everything with manbane is 8/9, that's almost automatic wounds, together with WS5 and poison... Also, extra kills helps witches a lot, they are naked T3 gals after all...

Quote:
For example, 5 DRs should kill 2-3 witches. Say they kill 3. I get 1 to attack back and kill a DR. I have outnumber, banner and a wound = +3 CR. The DRs have 3 wounds and flank. With witchbrew It's a draw

Those DR's could as well have a benner, if they were ment for CC... There are a bunch of T4 stuff out there, and S5 is decent against armour too...

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:39 pm
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Quote:
Obviously I will have wasted points against armies without good venom sword targets.

The reason I mentioned it is purely because of the way I play - I always want to make the best use of something and if there isn't a valid target for something I'm a horror for forcing myself to [b]find[/f] a target. As you can imagine that sometimes gets me into right scrapes, but I'd expect you not to be quite so excitable ;).

Grats on the win. You must break into a grin everytime someone rolls up with a Dragon :D

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:57 pm
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Hmm, there seems to be a lot of support for making the witches cheaper and more expendable. As I said I'm considering it but don't intend to change them just yet. I've only had one game with em and I lost them due to 2 big mistakes on my part rather than any real problem with the unit. Witchbrew is staying though. I am still convinced it is much more useful. As I said, manbane is great against high toughness stuff, but not as amazing against armour. I have plenty of ways of dealing with high toughness stuff (venom sword being top of the list), and if the witches do end up fighting them the poison and caudron rerolls should give me enough wounds anyway.

On the extra models at the back of units: Yes they are definietly worth it! it puts both units up a panic number so they have to be severly mauled before they even think about running off. The extra casualties I can take helps me keep my ranks for longer too, and the extra attacks help a fair bit. It basically makes these units much more survivable and therefore also much less attractive targets for shooting. Remember this army is slow, I'm not looking to get into combat until turn 3 or 4 in most games, so I need to be able to take that little bit more damage. I'm thinking of adding another exe too.

Which brings me back to the witches. These girls are the biggest target in the army for low strength shooting. With 16 they should reach the enemy in one form or another. And since the enemy are shooting them, they are ignoring the exes, who are harder to draw out into a trap than the witches. So most of the time I know the enemy will either be shooting the WEs or the DRs with bowfire, and the charaters or COK with machines. So i can be pretty confident of keeping the rest alive to see combat.

Quote:
The reason I mentioned it is purely because of the way I play - I always want to make the best use of something and if there isn't a valid target for something I'm a horror for forcing myself to [b]find[/f] a target. As you can imagine that sometimes gets me into right scrapes, but I'd expect you not to be quite so excitable .

I can assure you that the HB will not be charging a chaos lord with a 1+ save just because it's the only multiwound model in the enemy army! I'd use him to kill MDs, marudaer horses and stuff.

Quote:
You must break into a grin everytime someone rolls up with a Dragon

Actually no, surprisingly. I'd much rather kill the dragon with rbt fire (as I tried in this gme before I ran out of options). The venom sword has only about a 50% chance of killing a dragon even with the cauldron. Admittedly this is good for the points cost, but is by no means reliable!

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I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)


Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:43 pm
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Quote:
Actually no, surprisingly. I'd much rather kill the dragon with rbt fire (as I tried in this gme before I ran out of options). The venom sword has only about a 50% chance of killing a dragon even with the cauldron. Admittedly this is good for the points cost, but is by no means reliable!

RBT fire is very bad (concidering what it could be used for) against the dragon itself, (single bolts are the best choice), but you could kill the rider...

Two single bolts at short range is 1.666 hits, basicly one on the dragon, which on average equals a wound, so with two repeaters, you need to shoot the dragon for six turns, at short range, on average...

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:58 pm
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Nice report, and it sounds like an interesting game too.

I like the combo of the Caludron and Venom Sword, I might actually steal the idea. I haven't thought of using the Sword against chariots, that's actually a really good idea.

I prefer Witchbrew over Manbane since with Witchbrew you still have the swords poisoned, while you lose that with Manbane. Witchbrew is something I usually incorporates in my small WE units. It's also something that helps me out when frenzy shows off it's scariest face to me, since I can't really control frenzy in all aspects.

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:43 pm
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Quote:
while you lose that with Manbane.

I don't remember reading that anywhere in the dark elf book, or the core book... Hmm, that's cause it does not say so...

The hag will have more hitting power then a manticore against T4 and above, against T4 they will both have 4 S&WS 5 attacks, but the hag will also have poison...

Zeb: Why should the hag lose the poison, no they do not buy dark venom, and you can have dark venom and manbane on an assassin, the temple upgrades are not magic items, the only take from you magic item pool, in the same way as honours, in both cases you can have several different, check your book again...

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:29 pm
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You don't loose the poison attacks. It says that Witches have poisoned weapons, not that they have Dark Venom...

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:47 pm
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Quote:
You don't loose the poison attacks. It says that Witches have poisoned weapons, not that they have Dark Venom...

Yes, and eaven if they teoreticly had had dark venom, they would still not lose it, since temple gifts aren't magic items, and you may thus take many from the same saction (but any gift can only be taken once by a character), have multiple of the same item in the same army...

This is slightly OT though...

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Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:57 pm
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