Ant's advice experiment thread - UPDATED - Analysis Time!

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Ant
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Ant's advice experiment thread - UPDATED - Analysis Time!

Post by Ant »

Quick note to Mods: please don't move this to the army lists forum. This thread is not intended to be about the army that I write in it, it is meant to be about the type of advice we give new players. I intend it to be an experiment to see where we get to if all the advice we give is taken. I think if it is moved to the army lists forum it is likely to get lost and feel it will be more valuble in tactics. If you think it's a good idea you could even sticky it (hint, hint) :D .

Right, I've had a new idea I'd like to try out. I'd like to see what happens if a newbie takes ALL the advice given to him on his list. I am going to write a list and a short idea of what type of playstyle I want to use. The list could possibly slightly incomplete, or even illegal. It is your job to then give advice, as you would to a newbie. I will take as much of that advice as possible, randomly chooing if 2 bits contradict eachother.

I will not add in my own veiws of whether I agree with your advice or anything, I will attempt to follow your advice as blindly as possible. And sometimes I may even do something slightly illegal or (more likely) very stupid in my rewrites.

After about a week (depending on how active this thread becomes), I will stop rewriting the list and try to write some form of analysis of what has happenned to the list.

Try to treat me as a newbie who knows next to nothing about warhammer when you give advice or respond to any questions I may ask.

As I have said, this is an experiment. I don't know if it will work very well, or be interesting. But if it works how I hope it will this thread could act as a useful resource and give us a bit of insight on how to better help newer players.

Anyway, enough from me, here's the list for you guys to rip to pieces:

High Sorceress general, Dark steed, Soulstone, power stone, SoG 308pts

Noble BSB, cold one, Heavy armour, SDC, ring of darkness 176pts

Assassin, xhw, touch of death, dark venom 169pts

15 spearelves full command 130pts

10 rxb elves full command 135pts

7 DRs full command 161pts

8 shades 112pts

7 COK full command 248pts

1 COC rxbs 105pts

19 black guard full command

1 rbt

1999pts
5pd/5dd
74 models


I'm looking towards doing a combined arms army that can do something in every phase of the game. I've got a bit of magic, increased by the power stone and the ring of darkness that i can try to use in the same turn. Speed in the form of the cold ones and DRs, these can go off and kill stuff alone up one flank, supported with the sperelves, chariot and shooting in the centre. The black guard can hold up the other flank entirely, protecting me from enemy flankers. With the BSB they arn't going to flee. The bsb will stay near the centre to help the infantry out. Probably joining the spearmen. The assassin is a nice surprise and can go in any infantry unit really. I gave him killing blow to deal with characters and poisioned attacks too since it was only 10pts.

So guys, rip it to bits...

MOD EDIT: stickied. Linda
Last edited by Ant on Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ash010110 wrote: I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)
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Post by Cenyu »

Hello, Ant (Reynolds, I presume?)!

First off, welcome to Druchii.net! Hope you have a good time here.

There are a few things I noticed on your list:

- All units have full command. You could save points if you drop the standard and champion on your Dark Riders and Repeater Crossbowmen. The DR champion has +1 BS which is not useful to a unit without RxBs anyways. And static combat resolution and the +1A of the champion is rather useless on a unit which is meant for shooting support (this means the RxB Elves). And remember that enemies can capture standards for additional VPs so you usually don't want weaker units prone to be overwhelmed in close combat to have standards.

- Talking of Warriors - why do they have Full Commands but not shields? The shields can mean the difference between a 6+ and a 4+ armour save in close combat (if you choose to use hand weapons and shields instead of spears and shields in case of the spearmen) - thus shields can greatly improve the survivability of both of your warrior regiments.

- BSB with Ring of Darkness: Now this is a novelty, I for my part have not used this combination before. With the new rules of the 7th edition which make cavalry characters within infantry units not targettable sparately this gadget could mean a potentially very durable BSB in, say, the Black Guard - not only vs. shooting but also in hand-to-hand combat. That is of course only possible if the item passes the enemy defense*. It is a valid approach and I'd be rather interested to hear how he performs. Another bonus is that he makes the unit he joins immune to fear and thus auto-breaking from it.

(*Try casting it in one of the first turns when CC is not yet a topic thus is ignored by the opponent and hope that he forgets about the Ring till it's too late :))

- Remember that the Assassin can be deployed with Shades but can't be
hidden within them. Also keep in mind that ttacks which auto-wound due to poison can't cause a killing blow!

- Running out of time right now.

Best regards,

Cenyu


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Post by Ant »

Quick note from Ant: LOL :lol: !

Thanks for the quick response mate!

I've done as you said and lost some champions and standard bearers and given my warrior units shields. I had some points left after this so kept the standard on the DRs and gave the shades some armour so they some protection as well, since you say it's a good idea for warriors to have protection it must be good for shades to have some too right?

Glad you like the bsb. Putting him in the BG like that is a nice idea that I haven't thought of and sounds great. Is this the best place for him to go, and a good item setup.

I didn't know that attacks that auto wound can't do killing blow! Does this make my assassin a bad choice? should I drop him or give him different items, or is he ok the way he is?

So the new list is:

High Sorceress general, Dark steed, Soulstone, power stone, SoG 308pts

Noble BSB, cold one, Heavy armour, SDC, ring of darkness 176pts

Assassin, xhw, touch of death, dark venom 169pts

15 spearelves full command, shields 145pts

10 rxb elves musician shields 125pts

7 DRs baner and musician 147pts

8 shades light armour 120pts

7 COK full command 248pts

1 COC rxbs 105pts

20 black guard full command 355pts

1 rbt 100pts

1998pts
5pd/5dd
74 models
Ash010110 wrote: I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)
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Re: How good is the advice we give new players? - An Experi

Post by Banshee »

[edit]You just bet me. ;) All my comments refer to your initial list.[/edit]

Ant wrote:1 COC rxbs 105pts
I'd drop the RXB from the chariot and take spears instead. The two RXB won't do much harm to your enemy while the spears will give your charge definetely better punch.
Ant wrote:19 black guard full command
I'd really drop the command crew from this unit. It is expensive while it does not add much to the survivability of the unit. Being 19 strong they can really hold very long, but they won't protect a whole flank on their own. Depending on your enemy he might just ignore this unit. Also I'd go for one guard more to make this unit 20 strong - you can then deploy it 5 wide and 4 deep for maximum ranks.
Ant wrote:1 rbt
1 RBT will usually have not much impact on the game. Either drop it or take another one (remember: two RBT count as one rare choice.). The same goes for the chariot: If you "sacrifice" one elite slot to it take two. This will add a good deal of redundancy to your army. So when one goes stupid chances are that the second one at least will do what you want him to. :)
Ant wrote:I'm looking towards doing a combined arms army that can do something in every phase of the game. I've got a bit of magic, increased by the power stone and the ring of darkness that i can try to use in the same turn. Speed in the form of the cold ones and DRs, these can go off and kill stuff alone up one flank, supported with the sperelves, chariot and shooting in the centre. The black guard can hold up the other flank entirely, protecting me from enemy flankers. With the BSB they arn't going to flee. The bsb will stay near the centre to help the infantry out. Probably joining the spearmen. The assassin is a nice surprise and can go in any infantry unit really. I gave him killing blow to deal with characters and poisioned attacks too since it was only 10pts.

So guys, rip it to bits...
Altogether that plan is not bad. But it really depends on a lot of factors: Which army will you be playing against? Is it a friendly game or a tournament? Are you going to play a pitched battle or another scenario? Apart from that Cenyu gave you already a bunch of good tips.

Oh, btw: Welcome to Druchii.net! ;)
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Post by Cenyu »

- Giving the Shades armour: Well, while the difference between 6+ and 4+/5+ armour save on a rather big, ranked unit is noticeable the difference between 6+ and no save at all on a skirmishing unit like Shades is neglectbale. Drop the armour on the Shades - their durability is hardly increased by light armour. Their main task should be sniping and disposal of warmachine crews (generally harassment and disruption) - you should not expose them to shooting and they should never see combat against something worse than a warmachine crew (which they should be able to handle on the charge).

- Banshee's suggestion (which I second): The idea of getting two chariots and two RBTs each is definitely worth trying - as Banshee said they are 2 for 1 choices and work nicely together (two chariots on the charge can break most units and two RBTs cover even more space on the battlefield with potentially devastating anti knight bolts. Plus they can serve to protect each other against enemy warmachine hunters via volleys) - It's almost a synergy. ;) Remember that Cold One Chariots benefit from your High Sorc's Ld 9 when testing on stupidity so deploying and fielding them near her (up to 12") might be a good idea.

- The BSB: A Cold One BSB in a stubborn BG unit provides you with a very durable anvil unit which will almost never break (they are immune to fear and can re-roll their break test on the unodified Ld 9) - but the problem with Elven BSBs is that they are relatively fragile T3 W2 models. Of course in your setup he benefits from a 2+ save but this can easily melt to 5+ or 6+ against enemies with great weapons. Thus the Ring of Darkness seems like a good idea to make it harder for them to hit him. Yet it depends on whether it is dispelled or not - as I said it is an approach not yet tried by me so I can't comment on it. Against a magic heavy enemy I think it might be difficult to get the bound spell through. It all depends. ;) Anyhow, kudos to you for trying to use one of the items seldom seen in Dark Elves armies.

- The Assassin: It always depends on how you want to use him. Character (or knight) killing Assassins should get Touch of Death while RnF (rank and file = ordinary troopers ;)) killers should get Rune of Khaine and Manbane (or Dark Venom, depending on whether you face tough and well armoured opponents like Dwarfs or lightly armoured, fragile opponents like Elves) - Using both poison and killing blow on him makes him look like a cross build between the two approaches. Think of how you want to use him and which opponents you are likely to face and equip him to meet their weaknesses - or leave him as an "allround" build as in your list. ;)
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Post by Ant »

Thanks for the advice. I've done everything you said and lost all the command from the DRs too, the assassin's dark venom, the shades light armour and a BG from the unit to afford a 2nd rbt. I think 19 BG is ok because I'll have my bsb in it so that brings it up to 20.

I don't know how to do what you said about the chariot. I don't know what I should lose to get another one or what to get instead of it. Can someone give me an idea here please? Or is it better to have 2 chariots and only 1 rbt? Which is more important?

Which army will you be playing against? Is it a friendly game or a tournament? Are you going to play a pitched battle or another scenario?

I want an army that will do well against any army really. There's quite a lot of tournament players at the club I go to so I want to be able to do OK against them. I know I won't win often because I'm new at this but I want an army that can at least give them a good run for their money. Eventually (when I've had more experience) I'd like to go to a tournament (perhaps even the GT) and see how I do.

Here's the new list:

High Sorceress general, Dark steed, Soulstone, power stone, SoG 308pts

Noble BSB, cold one, Heavy armour, SDC, ring of darkness 176pts

Assassin, xhw, touch of death, dark venom 169pts

15 spearelves full command, shields 145pts

10 rxb elves musician shields 125pts

7 DRs 126pts

8 shades 112pts

7 COK full command 248pts

1 COC spears 97pts

19 black guard 304pts

1 rbt 100pts

1rbt 100pts

2000pts
5pd/5dd
76 models
Ash010110 wrote: I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)
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Post by Vorchild »

Comments on the original list:

High Sorceress general, Dark steed, Soulstone, power stone, SoG 308pts

Noble BSB, cold one, Heavy armour, SDC, ring of darkness 176pts

Assassin, xhw, touch of death, dark venom 169pts

15 spearelves full command 130pts

10 rxb elves full command 135pts

7 DRs full command 161pts

8 shades 112pts

7 COK full command 248pts

1 COC rxbs 105pts

19 black guard full command

1 rbt


I've never been all that fond of wizard lords, but if you are going to take one, you normally want a supporting caster. In this case, since the points are almost the same, I'd consider trading in the assassin for a second level sorc instead. I'd also seriously consider investing in the wand of kharaidon. This way you'll be a bit magic heavy, but I think it will serve you better in the long run. Rather than the power stone, I'd consder taking a scroll.

The BSB is an interesting idea, but if you're going to go that route, you might think of equipping him with the hydra banner instead. Personally, I'd drop the BSB from him and give him some simple equipment like a lance and lots of armour. On a related note, you could also easily reduce the size of the COK unit as a unit of 8 (with the hero) won't be particularly useful in 7th ed. You'd be much better off dropping a couple knights for a single ranked units of 6 with the hero.

On the subject of the units, I'm not particularly fond of larger untis of DR and I find 5 with a musician work best, especailly when given RXBs. You could use the points savings there to get yourself another shade as a unit of 9 is much better than a unit of 8 for reasons of panic. Personally, I like units of 5, but that's a matter of taste more than anything else.

I worry about the single RBT and the single chariot though. I personally find that a single RBT isn't all that useful (some people will swear by it though) and would recommend a second one - likely at the expense of the chariot is you can't find points elsewhere.

I'm also not particularly fond of large units of black guard, but there's no harm in trying. I think the unit is too expensive personally and would generally look more towards a unit of 10 rather than 19.

On the updated list

High Sorceress general, Dark steed, Soulstone, power stone, SoG 308pts

Noble BSB, cold one, Heavy armour, SDC, ring of darkness 176pts

Assassin, xhw, touch of death, dark venom 169pts

15 spearelves full command, shields 145pts

10 rxb elves musician shields 125pts

7 DRs baner and musician 147pts

8 shades light armour 120pts

7 COK full command 248pts

1 COC rxbs 105pts

20 black guard full command 355pts

1 rbt 100pts


Largely the same comments as above.
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Post by Rasputinii »

7 DRs 126pts


YES!

Fianlly, even the new members are learning tht 7 strong is the way to go! Hurrah! Could do with a banner though...

Any way, welcome to the site Ant.

I won't comment on the list as others are doing a good job on that, instead I will recormend you take a read of the threads in the hall of fame. There are lots of great articles in there, which should give you lots of ideas and help you out no end. You really should read them. Alsodon't forget to have a read through the Rules and FAQ which are stickied in the Druchii Discussion forum. Lots of questions are answered in there and will stop you asking silly things.

Other then that enjoy your stay here,

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Post by Haplo »

I belive you are making the list with 7 ed in the mind or do we have to explain the changes to you ;)

A few short ones from the hip:

8 shades is too many to hide, worth too much to sacrafice and too few to avoid panic from 2 casualties. Make these 5 or 6 instead.

I would either go magic heavy or magic defensive. magic heavy would mean removing the assasin and adding a second sorceress. remember the level upgrade on your HS. Or go magic defensive ie. lvl. 3 with 3 scrolls and the SOG.

Your COk can live without the champion and the musician. But they need a warbanner. Almost everylist should have a warbanner!

I would use the black guard unit either as a fighter unit or a tarpit unit. Your unit tries both by having ranks and a bsb. I would take a smaller unit say 12 with no upgrades, maybe a champion. Then depending on your opponents army and deployment put the BSB in the unit(against undead or multiple fear causers) or leave him in the spearmen against anything else. use the black guard to hold units and then counter charge with your knigts and COC. If the BSB joins the blackguard try an avoid him getting into contact with strong enemies. This can be done by showing the units flank to your opponent and having your bsb on the opposite flank. For more black guard tactics take a look in the Hall of fame
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Welcome Ant -- glad to have you aboard.

I am not going to comment so much on specific choices right now as much as I am going to comment on your overall selection. My major concern is your lack of combat-capable units -- you only have 4 of them -- the spears, the knights, the Black Guard and one chariot. It's okay to have a small number of combat units if you have enought support units to allow them to do their job -- but you don't have that either.

I understand your desire to have a little bit of capability in all phases of the game -- magic, shooting, combat. But in pursuit of that goal, you've taken a lot of very expensive selections that use up a lot of points an compromise the overall effectiveness of your army.

For example, you have some very expensive choices in the BSB, assassin and Black Guard, and you have other expensive choice in the High Sorceress. As a result of taking these expensive choices that are oriented towards the magic and close combat phases, you've neglected probably the most important phase of the game -- movement.

As it presently stands, your army does not really have a chance to dominate the movement phase to position your troops for advantageous combats.

Against horde armies, like Skaven, for example, you will be severely outnumbered in terms of units on the battlefield. Against horde armies, you need to be able to deal with one part of the horde at a time to keep from getting overwhelmed. You are almost entirely lacking in units that can be dedicated to preventing march moves, baiting and fleeing and otherwise delaying one part of the horde so that you don't get surrounded and crushed. The lack of such fast, maneuverable units also means that you won't be able to surround and outmaneuver smaller armies.

Basically, if you want to have an effective army, I think you need to make some hard choices -- but I can't make them for you. If you really want a High Sorceress, dump the Assassin and the Black Guard. If you want that strong combat center, drop the high sorceress and keep the Black Guard and either the BSB or the Assassin (preferably the BSB), but not both.

You really need:

(a) Harpies -- due to the ability to fly, they are the best option we have for hunting war machines and hopping around and preventing enemy march moves. Also, under 7th Edition rules, they are invaluable for dropping in behind enemy units that you are charging from the front. If the enemy breakes, they get destroyed by the harpies due to the "crossfire" rule. You should have a unit of 7-9 so that you can lose a couple due to missile fire and still take advantage of the "crossfire" rules. Drop the shades if you have to in order to take the harpies.

b) More units of Dark Riders -- Dark riders are great trooops due to their speed and maneuverability. Since they can freely reform during movement, they can slip through narrow gaps in the eney lines to threaten flank and rear charges to support you main combat troops. You can have a unit of 7 if you want a unit with a bit of combat capability, but only take one unit of that size. Other units of Dark Riders should be 5-strong to control costs, and you should try to have at least 3 units of Dark Riders in total. Use points saved from dropping some of your high-point choices to get more Dark Riders.

There are a lot of little inefficiences in the choices you have taken -- for example, taking Dark Venom on your assassin make Touch of Death less effective since you have fewer to-wound rolls if you also have poinsoned atatcks. But I am generally going to reserve comment at this time.

You first need to decide which of your expensive choices you want to drop -- if you want an effective army, you should not keep all of them.
Last edited by Dyvim tvar on Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rasputinii »

Just noticed the problem with this thread. All the Big Name posters and people who know whats what are replying to it. There isn't the sual bunch of people replying to these sort of threads with one to five line posts, often with fairly rubbish advise. I mean how many new member lists do those of us replying in this thread actually reply to? I know I severly limit myself to those who I think show promise and a desire to get good, people I can take under my wing to some extent. James Fazzalori being the best example. My point is I am not sure how accurate this experiment will be given that so far the calibre of replies is so high as all the big people wanna do their best to show the site ot be great, if you see what I mean. Perhaps creating a new account as a new player and dong this more stealthily might yeild more accurate results...

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Post by Loki »

Ok, once Ant revises it with all the other advice, I will comment on it. Im probably one of those people that Ras spoke about. Out there among the proletariat class that is the new people on this site, giving terrible advice, trying to lead those youngins astray :roll: And I guess I never showed any promise as an army list builder, seeing as Ras never commented on my lists. !cry!
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Post by Sleekdd »

Warning, very long post. If you just want the results without much explenation, just skim to the bottom. I just put in the long version it has little use to suggest changes if you don't understand why on earth I'd suggest them. ;)

Characters

First of all, the characters. The High Sorceress is sometimes used as general but if she is the only caster in your army, you’ll have to get lucky to get anything done with her. In the current form, your army generates 5 power dice, 2 for general use and 3 for the Sorceress. You could credibly cast 2 spells with her. Ironically, a single level 2 Sorceress has access to 2 spells and 4 dice and could try to cast two spells as well.

A minimal scroll caddy gets 3 dispel dice, 2 by the army and 1 by himself. And he usually carries two dispel scrolls. This means that he has a fair chance of dispelling one spell per turn using dice and one using a scroll. Your Sorceress would be blocked for the first two turns and could afterwards cast 1 spell per turn.

Usually, if you want to go ‘magic heavy’, you’ll need to enlist supporting casters. Basically, you bombard your enemy with spells and some have to get through. Because each caster can only use the dice he/she generates, you’ll want to balance the number of generated dice with the number of spells the caster has, using the dice your army generates as ‘grease’.

Anyway, for your High Sorceress, I’d advise you to try and make her generate more dice for her to use. An extra level of gets you that plus an extra spell to choose from. You can also take the Darkstar Cloak for an extra power dice per turn. Sadly, however, this conflicts with the Soulstone and given the nasty miscast table, you might want to hang on to that one.

And finally, characters have become more vulnerable with the targeting rules in the 7th edition. Mounting characters is smart since they can still join units. Since most of the Dark Lore is short ranged and/or needs line of sight, it would still be prudent to buy some form of protection for her in the forms of a ward save. If you are allowed to use the Storm of Chaos and Albion magic items, the Heartstone is a good choice, otherwise the Crown of Black Iron is a valid alternative.

This makes you character more expensive but she’ll be better suited for her task. If you only want some magic defence, just replace her with a level 2 caster with Dispel Scrolls. If you anticipate strong magic, two level 1 casters might be more useful but it starts becoming expensive and focussing on mage hunters might become a better option.

The army standard bearer looks good although I never used him in that configuration. If you’re light on magic, expect it to work only once if you follow Cenyu’s advice. If you’re heavy on magic, odds are your opponent have to ignore the Ring of Darkness more than he’d like to. Anyway, it could work, it might not, only one way to find out.

Most starters take an assassin but most regulars play without them. As they are, they are often considered overpriced for what they can do. If they are included, Touch of Death and an extra hand weapon is the most common configuration. Since Dark Venom and Touch of Death don’t work well together, I’d suggest you drop either one of those if you keep the model. Remember that a basic assassin is just as many points as a Noble on a Pegasus. Depending on what you want to do with the Assassin, you might to consider replacing him with something else. A Sorceress could give you that edge you could use to get more magic through and a Noble could help you to hunt down casters or to bolster a unit or chariot.

Core

As Cenyu mentioned, spearelves are a lot better if they get shields. For 1 point per model you increase their survivability a great deal. Also, the number of 15 makes the unit too expensive to use as a sacrifice and yet, it is too small to claim the maximum static combat result (CR). The main use of spearelves is just to provide either that CR or to be used as bait. Since your army seems geared to more straightforward combat as opposed to MSU (Multiple Small Units) I’d suggest you boost the number to at least 20 models.
If you have to skim points, you can drop the unit champion but if you can keep him, so much the better.

The 10 crossbowelves look good but I’d drop the command altogether. They shouldn’t get in situations where they have to rely on those. You could buy them shields so they could act as a makeshift flanker. With those 10 points, they suddenly get a 4+ save instead of a 6+, not bad, eh?

Most of the time, Dark Riders are used in units of 5. Some use them in units of 6 or 7 and have some success with it so you might want to try them out in various sizes. Concerning the unit options, you opted for the unit champion, giving you an extra BS but you don’t buy any crossbows for the unit. Usually, only the musician is taken along since it allows them to rally on a Leadership of 9 instead of 8. Whether or not to buy crossbows is a matter of taste. I like the added flexibility but others do just as well without the shots.

Special

Shades are fairly popular hunters for the Druchii and pretty good at what they do. It remains to be seen how useful they will be in the 7th edition since fewer characters will be walking in the open and they can be march blocked. They remain very handy to block marches on their own, however. Since the Scout rule dictates that, if the unit wants to make use of this scouting, it has to set up outside the LOS of the enemy, most people take units of 5 or 6, this way, it’s easier to find terrain for them to hide in or behind.

Given the new standard 5-wide units in the 7th edition, 7 Cold One Knights should be able to get every model into combat, thus maximizing attacks. I wouldn’t add any more models to this unit, though. If you want to drop some points, the musician could be dropped here. Some people don’t use any command at all if they are intended as flankers (and cavalry will most likely be assigned this duty given that ranks are now even harder to get by). It depends on how tough you expect your opponent to be.

Crossbows have fairly little use on a chariot. A chariot is intended to be in combat and you can’t shoot then. Also, since you’re moving all the time and you’re paying 10 points for 2 crossbows, most people leave those at home. If you’re planning to go heavy on firepower, you could buy them to stay with the theme of your army but otherwise, leave them.
Spears, however, are very useful and cheap.
The chariot is best used in conjunction with another unit. Usually, they provide the kills while another unit provides the static CR. And if you place a Noble in the chariot, the model gets a Unit Strength of 5 and can break ranks on its own! Also, you could place the BSB there, giving him better protection, making the Ring of Darkness less needed and you increase the odds of it breaking that unit you’re flanking. Often, people prefer the Sword of Might instead then. Since it depends on what you’re going for, I’ll leave this as it is.

Rare

You forgot to mention that your unit of 19 Black Guard is 339 points but given the points you posted, you might as well have intended them to be 20 strong. The total point value of your army is 1983 with 19 and 1999 with 20 models.

Usually, elite units such as Witch Elves, Executioners and Black Guard are used in small units, ie. 10. the reasoning is that, for each rank, 5 models need to be bought and they only contribute 1 static CR to the unit. You’re much cheaper off using spearelves for the static CR. The small elite units are used as flankers.

The Black Guard differ there a bit since they are basically our only tarpit unit. A tarpit is a unit that can hold an enemy in place for a while. Swarms are the most common forms of tarpits. Of course, our tarpit is pretty expensive but it can lash out pretty hard against most opponents.

Now, this post was pretty involved because we covered every entry and it’s easy to get lost but the shortened version is:

* Try to fit in a supporting caster or change the High Sorceress to a caddy, depending on which magic approach you want to take. If you choose the latter you might be able to fit in a Highborn as general.
* Review your options before taking the Assassin. He’s expensive and not nearly a surefire weapon in taking down enemy characters.
* Try to fit in more Spearelves. 20 models is a minimum to get a maxed out CR.
* Add shields to the spearelves and crossbow elves.
* Drop the command on the crossbow elves.
* Drop the champion and standard bearer on the Dark Riders and consider whether you want crossbows or not.
* Reduce the size of the Shades unit or swap them for Harpies.
* Replace the crossbows on the chariot with spears.
* Reduce the size of the Black Guard.

Pay attention to the following:

* You have few combatworthy units. As boring as it may sound, you need a solid base to work on. As you get more experienced, you’ll get away with taking chances like these.
* Being all-round is great, but you need strengths as well. Right now, you have the potential to do well in any phase if you’re willing to shift around some points. Think on what you’re willing to go for.

New list:

High Sorceress 333 points
extra level
Dark Steed
Soulstone
Crown of Black Iron

Noble 176
BSB
Cold One
Heavy Armour
Seadragon Cloak
Ring of Darkness

Noble 161
Pegasus
Heavy Armour
Seadragon Cloak
Shield
Lance
Ring of Hotek

Sorceress 175
Extra level
Darkstar Cloak
Seal of Ghrond

20 Spearelves 165
Full command
Shields

10 RXBs 120
Shields

7 Dark Riders 175
Musician
Crossbows

6 Shades 84

7 Cold Ones 248
Full command

1 chariot 97
Spears

10 Black Guard 160

1 Reaper Bolt Thrower 100

Total 1994

PS: This was intended to be post after Cenyu's post. Some troubles getting on Druchii.net.
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Post by Ant »

Quick note(s): SoC items are banned, as is the gauntlet (since most lists now take that into consideration and thisarmy is possibly going to be used at tourneys in the UK when I (the inexperienced, new version of me) get some experience)

Ras' suggestion is a good one. I'll carry on with this and sometime in the future may create a new account and see what happens if I do it that way. Another thing I may do is create another thread like this and ban anyone with over 500 or so posts from giving any advice (or just ignore it if they do). Look out for a thread of that nature in the next few days.

Anyway, back to Newbie Ant:


Ok, I've written a new list based on all your advice. Everyone seems to think swapping the assassin for a sorceress is the way to go so I did that. And I swapped the shades for harpies.

All of you are saying to reduce the BG but some say to 10 and others say 12, So I went for a comprimise and got 11.

I couldn't find points for the nobl on peg SleekDD (I think it's because I've got 2 rbts now) So I gave a peg to the sorceress instead, and boosted her level like you said.

The warbanner on the knights I could afford though and I put the spears up to 20 too. And the DRs are now 5 with rxbs since most of you said this was a good configuration

I wasn't sure whether you all liked the bsb combo in the black guard, so I left it as it is for now since some of you seemed to like it.

I still couldn't find the points for the second chariot or more DRs. Is this a problem? wWhat can I lose to afford them?

It does seem though that the list has less combat power now though. The BG and COK aren't as big as they were and there is no assassin now. I've got more magic and stuff, but I don't know if my units will hold up in combat now. Is this list better?

New list:

High sorceressLv4 , soulstone, scroll, CoBI, riding a DP 395pts

Noble bsb cold one, sdc, HA Ring of Darkness 176pts

Sorceress Lv2, DSC, SoG 175pts

20 spearelves Full Command 185pts

10 rxbelves shields 120pts

5 DRs rxbs muso 127pts

6 COK Full command, warbanner 244pts

1 COC spears 97pts

8 harpies 104pts

11 Black Guard 176pts

rbt 100pts
rbt 100pts

1999pts
9pd+1 Bound item/6dd+1 scroll
71 models
Ash010110 wrote: I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)
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Post by Vorchild »

That's actually not a bad list - I'd say have fun with it and report back on how you do. :)
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Ok, this army is better in some respects than your first one, but worse in some others. You are still trying to do too many different things. It's better to have an army that does a couple things well than an army that is medicore in every phase.

First, I think it was a good idea to take a second sorceress. The total of 9 casting dice puts you up in the range where your magic pahse should be effective and it will not be eaily shut down by enemy scrolls and dispel dice. I also generally like your equipments choices with your spell casters, and the fact that you High Sorceress is on a Dark Pegasus while the other is on foot. The High Sorceress can flit around, cast her spells and harass the enemy, while the level 2 can sit back in a crossbow unit and sling magic missiles.

I also like the addition fo the harpies. Kudos on that.

The cold-one unit looks good. You could drop the musician if you need a few points elsewhere.

The place where things have become worse is the Black Guard unit. The stubborn ability isn't any good if your unit gets killed down to the last elf, and with only 11 models, this could easily happen. The unit gets softened up by missile fire, and then lacks enough models to take a charge and survive.

I don't think your original unit of 19 Black Guard was too big (at least not by much -- 15 or 18 would be a good number). But it was one of a number of expensive models in your army that, overall, made the army not very efficient for the points. If you are only going to take 11 Black Guard, I wouldn't take them at all. Another unit of 20 spears would probably serve you better for almost the same number of points.

Finally, your noble BSB. I think I would drop him too if you drop the Black Guard since they won't be around to benefit from stubborn re-rolsl on break tests. More Dark Riders would be my recommendation here in his stead, and even another chariot if you can scrounge a few more points up somewhere -- not taking a campion in your spear unit(s) might get you there.
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Post by Silverwarlock »

this post is more on the experiment than on the actual list

as said above you should post a list with a new account

I would have been very glad to make a 5 liner post on the list ... then I re read it looking for something to point out, and the list is way over my capacity in dark elves ... I would suggest posting a more common army list in the lesser races forum, because the people here that talk about DEs tend to be pretty good (well at least there are enough good ones that you get lots of advice if needed)

an interesting thing to do might be posting a vanilla skaven/bretonnian/lizard army and seeing where the people push you to ;)

now following is a good example of a post from a DE newb, this would be my thought if I had to comment on the list, even though I try to stick to armies I have some experience with :

/*start of post*/

hi there, nice to see a new player going for a challenge, dark elves are pretty hard to use, so it might take you a little while to actually do something with them

20 spear elves ... a bit of a big unit in an otherwise small fast army ... I would say take 10 or 12 as flankers or screening, 20 will either get avoided or slaughtered

the high sorceress ... expensive model to go around on a DP, I would suggest sticking her in a unit of rbxs ...

I would probably drop the high sorceress altogether and get more models, but I guess you dont want to

I would drop the DP, drop 10 spearmen, drop their command, give them shields

get an extra harpy for panic checks (as you need to kill 3 for a panic check on 9) remember they dont get command from general so they will leave the table on first panic check

get another 5 DRs, probably w/o rbxs

/* end of post */

as I said I would not normally comment a DE list as I find them pretty odd compare to what Im used to (skaven dwarfs chaos, all pretty horde or MSU oriented)

ill post my little brother's DE list some time soon (I tried to help him with it already) so you can rip it appart and monitor the post all you want
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Post by Ant »

OK, BG and BSB gone for spearelves, chariots and DRs.

New list:

High sorceress Lv4 , soulstone, scroll, CoBI, riding a DP 395pts

Noble bsb cold one, sdc, HA Ring of Darkness 176pts

Sorceress Lv2, DSC, SoG 175pts

20 spearelves Banner and muso 175pts

20 spearelves Banner and muso 175pts

10 rxbelves shields 120pts

5 DRs muso 97pts

5 DRs rxbs muso 120pts

6 COK Full command, warbanner 244pts

1 COC spears 97pts

1 COC spears 97pts

8 harpies 104pts

rbt 100pts
rbt 100pts

1999pts
9pd+1 Bound item/6dd+1 scroll
85 models
Ash010110 wrote: I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)
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Post by Loki »

Well, I think that you made a mistake in calculating the points on your second DR unit. I don't have my army book, but I believe that it should be 127 points instead of 120. Im not really in favor of the Ring of Darkness, so I would suggest that you drop it. With the points you gain, you will be able to buy shields for one of your warrior units. Which brings me to my next point, shields on warriors are a must. I would also move your sorceress off the dark pegasus and onto a dark steed. This would give you enough points to get the other unit of warriors shields, and pay for the musician in th second DR unit as well. I would also suggest bumping the number of rxb warriors to 12, this unit is still small enough to get them all shooting, but you can also form them into 3 ranks of 4 for some extra combat resolution, should they find themselves in danger of being charged.
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Post by Archdukechocula »

Ant: I think you would be better served by making a proxie account and making a "newbie" post. As it is, everyone knows who you are, and precisely your intent, which wil naturally bias the responses you garner. However, in the spirit of your intent, here is the advice I would give.

As far as fixing the list, drop the dark pegasus, get a dark steed, and beef your harpies up to nine. This will help them avoid panic from shooting better, as three will need to die to cause a panic rather than two. The loss of the dark pegasus does have the downside of slightly decreased maneuverability on your high sorceress, as well as less ability to fight in combat, but with the extra points left over, you can give your Noble a Sword of Might. The extra hitting power garnered by the Sword of Might may be worthwhile, as it gives the BSB another way to defend himself by killing threats that may kill him. You could also consider droping the ring and giving him the heartstone of darkness to get him a ward save, Im just not sure where you would get the points, as I really do recommend going for the 9 harpies.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Yep. This is a fun exercise, but you should make a proxy account sometime in the next few weeks (not right away) and only reveal yourself at the end.
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Post by Haplo »

With 2 chariots you should consider dropping the standard from your noble and make him the general. That way the chariots can use his LD while the HS is flying around doing her stuff.

Or you could mount the BSB in a one of the chariots to make it use his LD.

As said by others your selection of magic items for the BSB/noble could be more effective. A sword of might is very nice on a BSB and if you just make him a noble in a COC you can go insane on armour save by using the enhanced shield, something very usefull in 7 ed where the characters doesn't step down from the chariot in a challenge!
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Post by Ant »

Dyvim Tvar wrote:Yep. This is a fun exercise, but you should make a proxy account sometime in the next few weeks (not right away) and only reveal yourself at the end.

Who says I haven't already? ;)

Sorry guys, but I must have miscalculated with the last list. I didn't have enough points for the bsb, so I took it out since You've been saying he's not that useful now without the black guard.

I've done everything else you said but I can't find the points for the noble to put in a chariot because I was over the last time. What should I lose to get him in? I was thinking the 97pt dark riders, but you were saying I needed more than 1 unit of them too. What should I do?

new list:

High sorceress Lv4 , soulstone, scroll, CoBI, riding a DP 395pts

Sorceress Lv2, DSC, SoG 175pts

20 spearelves shields, Banner and muso 175pts

20 spearelves shields, Banner and muso 175pts

12 rxbelves shields 144pts

5 DRs muso 97pts

5 DRs rxbs 120pts

6 COK Full command, warbanner 244pts

1 COC spears 97pts

1 COC spears 97pts

9 harpies 117pts

rbt 100pts
rbt 100pts

1999pts
9pd+1 Bound item/6dd+1 scroll
87 models


Is this better or do I need that noble?
Ash010110 wrote: I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)
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Post by Haplo »

LD 8 COC just isn't good enough! Also by making a noble your general your enemy's prime target ie. the HS gives him 100 VP less... And by mounting him in a chariot you gain anouth rank busting unit.
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Post by Ant »

OK, so what should I lose to get him?
Ash010110 wrote: I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)
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