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June Topic of the Month -- Dogs of War in Dark Elf Armies 
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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So I've been eying a box of Manflayers, wondering whether I should paint them up and add them to my Druchii force. I also have some Ogre Bulls assembled but not painted.

Looking at these figs inspired me for this month's topic -- Dogs of War. It's something I really have no experience with, so I am going to leave this issue mostly to others.

What kinds of mercenary units have worked for you? Ogres? Giants? Manflayers? The Fighting Cocks, perhaps? ;)

How do you use them to best effect and what else should you include in your army to take advantage of their abilities?

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Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:52 pm
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I'm actually a big fan of the Manflayers, and use them in my regular lists in my gaming group. I've found that against empire they are absolutely crippling though against some others not effective much. It really depends much on how you deploy and then use them.

I take 10 or 11 Manflayers and build the rest of my army around them. The hydra becomes a no-brainer when combined with the Flayers because it moves through terrain and brings punch and terror for their assistance. I avoid most combats with them unless they are just supporting because of the flaying rule. Missile attacks are where they are most deadly to even dragons. Since they are almost impossible to shoot back at, they require a meaningful response if they want to be dealt with. Magic can be dangerous to them but armed with that knowledge you make a list accordingly. I like to combine the Flayers shooting potential with a pair of RBT's, a pair of shooting DR, and sometimes some warriors with crossbows. For CC, Some warrior blocks for CR supported by CoC with characters.

I've found this combo to be extremely effective. The trick is to keep the Manflayers shooting as much as possible and capitalizing on gaps created by casualties in the battle line.

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Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:11 pm
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Cannons are always good as a more reliable replacement for RBT's.

Other than them and menghil's guys, the other unit I get a lot out of is Leopold's leopard company. Immune to psychology pikemen are about as durable as any non stubborn infantry out there. Very useful if you are building a strategy around holding the enemy for a turn while your counter punch readies itself.

I imagine duelists could come in pretty handy too. under 10pts for pistol wielding skirmishers with 2A in cc and always stand and shoot... sounds like some very good fast cav/flyer deterrent to me.

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Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:39 am
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I like to use 7 Manflayers in my army. Combined with a Dragon Lord and Shadowblade they can be quite fun to play with.

If I was to use any Ogres it woudl be Leadbelchers as the fit the Raider theme quite well.

A Slave Giant is also a very cool idea and fits in perfectly with the Raider ArmyList.

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Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:31 pm
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Duellists with pistols only have 1 attack in hth I presume, as braces of pistols count as armed with 2 hand weapons, though I agree that the wording on it is a bit dodgey...

I've fielded various units with my DE, and have grown to like mengil and heavy cav. For a gunline, I'm sure that dwarfs with shield, ha, xbows and command will do wonders, as they are brick hard, and gives you some nice shooting.

In my next DE army I'll be fielding a unit of 18 Norse Marauders with GW and command, to stand-in as Exes. with 13 S5 attacks, striking first on the charge, and their static bonuses, they net more CR then WE and Exes on any target (I believe at least). With the baiting that is availible to DE it should be a pretty easy to get the charge in.

Duellists with additional hand weapons is a buy that I'd recommend highly if you don't mind DoW, and you got a rareslot + 56 points left. They are up among the best units for redirecting, as they are: only flee 2d6 (increased chance of getting cought) are skirmishers, and pose a theat against light armed units. I personally run 3 units (armed differently) in my DoW army, and none of them have ever let me down.

The Galloper gun also works great. With the ability to move, use Bronzino as a light cav unit, and the marchblockers/redirecters of the DE army, you are almost sure to get flankshots on knight or grapeshots on infantery, both good for taking out half regiments on single shots.

Xerasi - who sees about endless possibilities if you just choose units that supports your army (and not the other way around)

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Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:34 pm
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Prince of Arnheim wrote:
If I was to use any Ogres it woudl be Leadbelchers as the fit the Raider theme quite well.


I agree 100% here PoA. Leadbelchers are the perfect Ogre unit for DE because they somewhat make up for the bolt throwers that you wont be able to take by using them, and they provide some much needed toughness to your army.

To maximise the Leadbelchers shootyness, advance them to within charge range of an enemy unit and open up with their leadbelcher cannons. Then next turn, when the enemy charges the belchers flee (hopefuly far enough you dont get caught lol). In your following turn, if you manage to rally the ogres, the turn they spend rallying also counts for their reload turn. Then you can have a hard flaking unit smash into the enemy that your belchers fled away from, and your ogres are ready to fire again next turn :)

Cheers,

Girathon

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Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:50 pm
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Xerasi wrote:
Duellists with pistols only have 1 attack in hth I presume, as braces of pistols count as armed with 2 hand weapons, though I agree that the wording on it is a bit dodgey...



"In close combat, the heavy butt of a pistol can be used as a club, counting exactly like a hand weapon." pg56 main rulebook, close combat weapons, pistol section.

"Duellists
Equipment; Swords (hand weapon). May have one of the following... ... ... pistol" Dogs of war pdf.

1 hand weapon plus one pistol = 2 attacks in cc.

Seems pretty straight forward to me...


Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:35 pm
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I use two DoW units in my army. This is what I've been fielding-

High Sorceress- Lvl4, CoBI, Darkstar Cloak, Scroll
BSB- HA, SDC, Steed
Noble- Steed, HA, SDC, Shield, Lance
5 DR- Mus, Standard
5 DR- Mus
2x11 Corsairs- Mus
22 Spearmen- FC Shields
10 RXBs- Shields, musician
2 Chariots
13 Executioners- Champ, Musician
10 Mengils Manflayers
18 Norse Marauders- Flails, Standard, Musician, LA, Shield

The army has been working out very well. The trick is to use the Manflayers as a support unit, don't get cocky with them. I haven't had much luck against Skaven, but then again, I never do. They had a blast against Vampire Counts and Lizardmen, though. Tomb Kings will also create a problem, but it was more a dice problem than the actual army. The Norse Marauders are absolutely wonderful, they hit like a sack full of bricks. Not much is going to stop them. The problem, however, is that you really need to break them on the first round of combat. If not, you're down to a 6+ save, and you're in trouble.

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Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:03 pm
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Personally I'm interested in Voland's Venators as a replacement for Cold One Knights (thus giving one the ability to create a functional completely non-stupid list). I've built a list, but I'm currently taking a break from the DE to play Wood Elves, so I haven't gotten a chance to try it out yet...


Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:37 pm
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I've used cannons and old DOW Ogres and both are pretty good. I used the cannon because I had it and I didn't have an RBT at the time - it was pretty reliable but you've only got one cannon for one rare unit slot - whereas you can have 2 RBTs.

I took the old dow ogres because at the time I thought that there was no DE units that would the same job. If I was doing that again I think I'd invest in Leadbelchers for the reasons Girathon outlines. But bulls might be a good option too.

I also used the Dark Emissary (I justify this through my own fluff - my Army is themed on the DE's colony on Albion) he adds a little magical vesatility to the army but he isn't great value so I don't really recommend him.

I've been thinking about using manflayers instead of scouts but i haven't tried them yet. I did try vespero and some duelists - they were better than the scouts but Menghil & the manflayers might be a better deal.


Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:38 pm
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The only DoW units I have used yet are ironguts and bulls, and I'll just quote what I said about them in another thread (to lazy to make a new post :P)

Quote:
I've used ogres in my druchii army to good results. Ironguts are a great against enemy knights and ogre-sized units. They'd probably also work well against monsters but I haven't faced any monsters with them yet. Bulls are pretty cheap and they provide S4 which is great against enemy knights, I use them in 500 and 1000 point games because they are exactly the unit that dark elves miss on those levels IMO. They are reliable, have S4 to halve knights'* armour saves and still have a good enough number of attacks to be able to do good damage against horde troops. In higher point levels I prefer the ironguts for their S6, but in smaller games the points difference really makes a difference.
Haven't used leadbelchers or maneaters yet, but I wil some day

I've used them in armies without knights or magic, and with little shooting (two RBTs is the max I normally use)

* the chances of failing a 3+ armour save are twice the chances of failing a 2+ armour save.


Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:42 pm
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Despite some of the so called 'bent' lists I have myself posted in the past, I'm against any black powder DOW assistance to my Dark Elves.

Kinda weird but they just don't fit fluff-wise in any way for me.

I've used the Cursed Company in infantry based DE lists. They're pretty crap but I love the models and the fluff behind them, and the Undead have always been a favourite race of mine. (Can't wait for the new book!). Ther're very slow compared to the rest of the army but great fun and damn hard to eliminate. They are the perfect anchor unit.

I have a unit of Ironguts painted up - 4 with great weapons and a standard bearer. Perfect on a flank due to their speed of movement, and they offer a multi-wound unit which we sorely miss in the main list. I have used them on 3/4 ocassions now and they have proven to be very effective and add the high strength combat hits I ose when I allocate my special slots away from Knights and Chariots. Try then with Mengils - AWESOME COMBO!

Mengil and the Manflayers are my current favourites of course. I'm in the process of writing up my recent successes so I'll post a link shortly.


Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:10 am
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I have recently been to the NZ North Island Champs and I took a unit of 3 Ironguts with nothing special about them and a unit of 8 Manflayers. The IGs helped alot for holding flanks and taking on the tougher things like Dragon Ogres that would be a challenge for the rest of my army.

The Manflayers were great. People underestimated them by a long way and in my first game they charged a unit of empire heavy cav in the front and beat them by 7 and then turned around and charged a fully ranked up unit of swordsmen in the front, winning by 4 or 5. Not the smartst thing to do charging the ranked up unit but they can dish it out.

The only other DoW unit I have used is the Dark Emissary. Hes a great addition to our ary as they also get the +1 for casting, and give us access to the Fenbeasts.

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Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:22 am
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Manflayers are superb, people know how good they are, especially with getting everything poisoned but what really makes people shocked is their 100+vps you get for each unit that breaks from combat with them =D I use them to hunt weaker units or rear, flank charge in combination with other things.
But Menghil is not that great, if he get challanged by a strong character his only 5+ save is not much =D


Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:17 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Anyone ever used a DoW Giant before?

I am not particularly sold on them since I have usually been able to kill giants with Strength 3 missile fire due to their lack of armor save.

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Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:55 pm
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I'll give a short summarisation of the DoW units I have used.

Menghil: He kicks ass. He can kill Giants, flay warmachine batteries, and if combined with a block of Warriors they can break normal ranked units with a flankcharge. Use them wisely, though, as thy die like nothing against auto-hit shooting. (Also because this generally tend to be warmachines, and a T3 5+ save Elf is nothing against a S 10 Bolt Thrower.)

Orge Bulls are good, filling up the "Monster Unit" slot in the Dark Elf army. Is converted a bit to look like enslaved monsters they are both fluffy, great model-wise and strong in combat. Same goes for Ironguts. (Ogre Executioners, anyone?)

A Giant is useful against low-shooty armies, but forget it against anything with more than 20 shots/turn. He dies easily, even more so against poison. Sure, he's tough and scary, but he dies all the same. Use them to tie up units, the Yell and Bawl attack is useful. I only use one because I'm damn proud of the paintjob, and I could get the model 10 euro off.

Tijminator

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Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:09 pm
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Yeah, knights are basically a slightly harder version of a Manticore Dyvim but with a random attack and also being stubborn, but I rather pay the points for a manticore and get a highborn/beastmaster that can fly around with its terror flank/rear ability.


Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:29 pm
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Quote:
Yeah, knights are basically a slightly harder version of a Manticore


You mean giants i suppose ;)

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Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:35 pm
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The thing that intrigues me about Giants is that they are stubborn on a 10. They can take a charge better than anything in the Dark Elf Army, with the possible exception of Black Guard + BSB. On paper, they are definitely better than a Hydra for the points, I'm just wondering about real-world experience with them.

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Last edited by Dyvim tvar on Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:46 pm
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Dyvim, I can only talk about giants in my DoW list, but he certainly has a place in that list. As a hammer he is unreliable at best, but has won me several combats. As a anvil he is the best. It is relative easy to kill a giant, but his true value comes into play when using terrain to screen him, and most importantly posing multiple threats. If you throw out a couple of DR units that can threaten the enemies flanks, he will be decently safe.

In my last 2 tournaments (3 games each against DEx2, Ogre, VC, Dwarfs and Bret at 2250/2000) I lost my giant 2 times, both times after he did what he was inteded for. I've not had a problem with shooting, only when he is in prolong combats (died against a blooddragon thrall while fighting zombies and skeletons, and some yeties+ gnoblars.

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Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:08 pm
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Denthor wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, knights are basically a slightly harder version of a Manticore


You mean giants i suppose ;)


Yes..to many units in my head ;)


Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:59 am
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Manflayers are simply great. I use sometimes a maximized unit of them. These guys can easily mess up enemy lines and shoot down nearly anything (I shot several Treemen with them). And they're nearly invulnerable to missile fire and they're great in melee (at least when they charge). And you also get an extra hero!

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Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:08 pm
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Arn't manflayers too vulnerable to autohit shooting and magic. Against dwarfs isn't the gyrocoper simply going to fly over and broil the unit with its steam cannon or dragon breath etc?
They exchbit all the DE traits, expensive, good at dishing it out but can't take it at all.

After having payed against ogres recently with my DE my opponent took out all the lead belchers because they are crap. Sure they look good but, they probably only get to shoot 2* per game and on average you are only getting about 3 hits per ogre per shot. So that would kill say 4 DE warriors.

Small units of 3 ogre bulls also have the staying power of wet tissue paper. They are more like a chariot with a wide frontage than an infantry unit.

I don't think that DOW Norse are worth it. DE warriors with spear and shield are 8 points it's hard to get infantry that are much cheaper than that and have a 10" charge range.

Bronzino could be tempting especially when used with dark riders.

Giants might be tough but they attrack shooting and magic missiles like magic. Maybe their slave collar has a curse on it? Any good player won't engage the giant until it is near death and they can kill it and then overrun.

I don't understand why people think a slave giant fits with a raiding army. I can't imagine a worse thing to take on a raiding ship and you can't pick one up from the first costal village you arrive at. Similar with Ogres.

If you want to use ogres I think you need to make a significant investment in the unit so that it is something like 6-8 strong.

Another effective unit could be Ogre man eaters. Give some great weapons and some handguns. They can then shoot or advance and pummel the opponent.


Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:14 pm
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Kargan DaemonClaw wrote:
Against dwarfs isn't the gyrocoper simply going to fly over and broil the unit with its steam cannon or dragon breath etc?


The gyro would probably die first -- they are no longer immune to poison. It's the organ gun you would have to be careful of . . .

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Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:26 pm
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sulla wrote:

"In close combat, the heavy butt of a pistol can be used as a club, counting exactly like a hand weapon." pg56 main rulebook, close combat weapons, pistol section.

"Duellists
Equipment; Swords (hand weapon). May have one of the following... ... ... pistol" Dogs of war pdf.

1 hand weapon plus one pistol = 2 attacks in cc.

Seems pretty straight forward to me...

Hadn't looked under the duelists, but yes, I actually agree with you. The problematic part imho is why the heck include a paragraph saying: "If a model carries two or more pistols it counts as being armed with two handweapons" and "all models are assumed to be carrying a handweapon"...

I've just played by what I thought was intended... Well, seems like my duelists are worth their points now :)

Kargan DaemonClaw wrote:
Small units of 3 ogre bulls also have the staying power of wet tissue paper. They are more like a chariot with a wide frontage than an infantry unit.


Yeah, but thats the reason DoW ogres are better. They have greatweapons, and with decent luck they tie against big blocks of inf, and win if supported.

Kargan DaemonClaw wrote:
I don't think that DOW Norse are worth it. DE warriors with spear and shield are 8 points it's hard to get infantry that are much cheaper than that and have a 10" charge range.


Do the math. Norse marauders may be lacking 2" charge move, but this can be seen as an advantage in the DE army. It protects them to baiting etc. At least to a degree. They also hit like a ton of bricks as said, 10-11 WS4 S5 attacks ain't anything you should laugh at. With proper tactics they can easily be the chargers on cav units, and with their attacks, and rankbonus they should win by a couple, even if they are without support.

Kargan DaemonClaw wrote:
Bronzino could be tempting especially when used with dark riders.


He works fine, though I'm unsure with the DE army. Perfect in a DoW imho.

Kargan DaemonClaw wrote:
Giants might be tough but they attrack shooting and magic missiles like magic. Maybe their slave collar has a curse on it? Any good player won't engage the giant until it is near death and they can kill it and then overrun.


Well, depends who you are. Any good player will not leave much room to choose for ones opponent. When pressed you might jump into combats you don't like, but being as random as he is, it might not be bad. I'd suggest you try playing him more if you think he is so bad. Magic and missile magnets are also important imho.

Kargan DaemonClaw wrote:
If you want to use ogres I think you need to make a significant investment in the unit so that it is something like 6-8 strong.


Why? 3 DoW ogres with GW and champ work well. 10 attacks, usually 5 hits, and 4 kills. So, you loose by 1. Thats a 133 pt unit without support. 'nough said imo.

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Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:57 pm
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