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Being forced to pursue...has it happened to you? 
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Hatred = pursuit

I had a game last night against a regular opponent of mine who plays High Elves and he quickly began to try to exploit the hatred issue in his favor.

He charge a unit of 10 rxb warriors in their flank with a great eagle fully expecting to lose combat and flee and force them to pursue. He did and they did thereby clearing a path for his swordmasters to advance out of a wood they had been hiding in and work toward a much more useful position (they had the go through difficult terrain banner).

My rxb warriors had fired a turn or two at other targets but were basically daring the swordmasters to show themselves. By using the eagle in their flank he forced the unit to pursue way out of position (I rolled a 9) to pursue of course the eagle still got away.

This wont be much of a problem against VC and Daemons but against O&G, HE, WE, really anything with units that are inexpensive enough to use in this manner I expect to see this from good players.

Anybody else dealing with this situation yet?

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:03 am
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Noble
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That's a good point and thank you for pointing it out, I
honestly would never had though of people doing that. I'd
better watch out for that then, especially since I play a
combat heavy army.

I guess best thing to do is use your Harpies against those
type of units.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:17 am
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This is exactlky the reason why i decided not to play Dark elves. I love the fluff, model and style of play but the forced to pursuit can screw you againt high elf, skaven etc. soo many army can exploit that rule


Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:06 am
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Noble
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If the player is good enough to think of it

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:22 am
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Noble
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And if you don't play Dark Elves why did you join a
Dark Elf forum? Just curious

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:23 am
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It will never come up....unless you play against decent players. !wink!

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:28 am
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Mordru, did u lose the game because of that tactic?


Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:54 am
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and where were these crossbowmen, remember eagles arent a large target so they would have had to be entirely on the flank. Also when he charged with the eagle it was your turn next so you had a turn to redeploy.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:58 am
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@ RiverRat

No the game was a typical HE v DE battle...a bloodbath that ended in a draw.

@ MoD
He was entirely in the flank. I had lost one unit of harpies to shooting and the other unit was dealing with the other eagle. The point was not what happened in my battle the point is that this is a tactic that good players will exploit. A turn to redeploy is well and good but by the time I got turned around and back into a good position the swordmasters had made it out of the woods and into combat...where they were safe for the moment. I eventually destroyed them utterly with RBT fire and a timely black horror.

Anything that can get into postion to charge can pull you out of positition. Most people on these boards have been talking about being forced to overrun/pursue not being that big a deal. But we have mostly been veiwing things from the perspective of when we charge and then are forced to pursue. We need to give some thought to how to counter or at least minimize the problems caused by opponents charging us planning to lose and then forces us to pursure.

Especially those of us running elite infantry. One wolf rider charge in the flank of a black guard unit can throw off the whole battle line. Great eagles in particular are problematic due to high WS, low points cost and ability to fly behind your battle line. They had best not be ignored.

I surmise that it is going to make elite infantry less viable against certain armies in the hands of skilled opponents. At least its not like 6th edition when you had the ridiculous situation where you could over run whether you charged or not. I forced so many Khorne knights to get stuck in the woods due to this.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:12 am
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I still think that having to pursue won't be too much of a problem if you think ahead.

Anyway in this case your RXB men would have had to restrain pursuit without Hatred which they could have easily failed anyway as well as it then being your turn so you could move the RXB halfway back to where they were.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:30 am
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You can't move them half way back if they are facing the wrong direction you have to surrender some move to turn/reform. There is a huge difference between getting to test to avoid pursuit and autopursuing and a big difference when your opponent knows that you must pursue.

In my game cited above, my opponent would never have charged unless 1) he knew that my unit would have to pursue, and 2) it was an advantage for him to force my unit to do so.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:34 am
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Do you have any RBTs in the list? In 6th edition, they were one of my strongest assets when it came to protecting my Frenzied Witch Elves from being baited. When sitting on a hill with a 360 degree line of fire, they are great for killing small "throw away" units before they can stir up much trouble.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:43 am
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Quote:
This is exactlky the reason why i decided not to play Dark elves


You decided not to play a whole army just because of this?!?

I don't have the new book and so haven't had a chance to play test it yet, but the having to pursue doesn't seem like a game ruining downside. Sure, it is a drawback that I would rather not have. But I think that re-rolling misses in the first turn out ways the negative aspect. Our army also got boosted in other areas too so having to pursue is something I am more than happy to live with.

After all, if the rule was that detrimental I doubt it would have survived the play testing stage.


Quote:
forced to pursuit can screw you againt high elf, skaven etc. soo many army can exploit that rule


Saying that every army can exploit the fact that we have to pursue is like saying that every army can exploit:
Skavens poor leadership, Goblin fanatics and poor leadership, Ogre’s lack of manoeuvrability, VC reliance on magic and their general being alive as well as their inability to bait and flee, Dwarfish lack of movement, Wood Elves lack of static combat res etc.

My point is that all armies have some form of weakness, it’s what helps to make the game balanced. If you refuse to play an army because they have a downside then you’ll end up not playing any army at all.


Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:16 am
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I originally considered the drawbacks of hatred very bad, almost a reason to not play the army, like Mormie. After playing a few games and milling things over in my head I've come to consider it as a very characterful part of the army which fits very well into the whole "advanced players army" image that darkelves used to have and still retain to some extent. The drawbacks of hatred are now one of my favorite things about the army. :)

(and I'm not complaining about the re-rolls, either. ;))


Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:40 am
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How many times did rerolling to hit help tip an otherwise balanced combat in your favour in this game?

Cheers,
Dave

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:41 am
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I can remember many times in past games when re rolling to hit could have changed the entire game, Usually when one of my characters missed with all attacks and consequentially lost the combat and was run down.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:23 am
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I'm surprised that the HE just thought about that when Hatred against HE were there since the 6th edition...

Also, I don't care too much about this, most of the time, you want to pursuit, it may do bad things a few times but most of the time, you won't even care. The only time I didn't wanted to pursuit was when I was playing with my Breton and I got flanked by miners, I didn't wanted to break my line but most of the time, I pursuit.


Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:52 am
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I see the idea of skilled players using hatred against us in this way. But as Crawd and others have said most of the time we will want to pursue anyway so its not something we will have to face that often. However its a valid point that we should consider when playing in general. But in 6ed the HE's were able to do this anyway so I dont see it as too big a deal.
Most of us are on some level already aware it can happen. Now that a larger playerbase(all armies) can use it comparred to just 1 army in the past might make it more common. But I hardly see it as a gamebreaker as its just one of the minor weaknesses we have that comes with a huge upside advantage.
(Its like Ld9 stupidity. or T3 Lords. Its our cross to bear but also its what makes DE's fun)

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:49 pm
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My thoughts are that this is something that has to be factored into our tactics not something that makes the army unplayable. It will further enforce the theme of aggressive play with the druchii host. If we dally and are overly cautious our battle line my evaporate anyway do to forced pursuit so it will be best to attack early and often.

It is true that we have always had hatred against HE. I play several armies currently including HE, DE and (well not actually now as I loathe the vanilla WD list) chaos mortals. The reason that it hasn't really come up against HE thus far in my experience is that unitl the new HE book now one played HE very much as the 6th edition book was terrible, intigue at court and all, and after the new HE book arrived few players fielded DE against them.

I just used that example from my recent game because it caused me to think about where the new DE army is going and what obstacles there are to effective play with the new list.

The crux of the issue appears to be that in the past if something fast and fragile sneaked behind your lines, an eagle, wolf riders, beast herds, miners, scouts of most all types, etc... you had to worry about being march blocked if you could not readily neutralize the threat but generally, your large blocks of troops where safe from attack. Now with univesal hatred, any rear or flank charge has the real potential to pull your troops off line.

This is something that must be taklen into account and frankly I am pondering the reality it unfortunately hurts our elite infantry more than other elements of the army.

Virtually all parts of the army are subject to the effects of hatred but it appears that elite infantry will suffer most. It takes them longer to get into position to accomplish their tasks, they are more costly than simple core foot and they are all special so by definition they will be seen in mostly lesser numbers. All our elite infantry is going to play a little like witch elves at least in the pursuit setting.

It can be gaurded agaisnt and indeed must be guarded against but its not just Cold Ones that are ungovernable anymore. Hatred makes us more deadly but it also makes us more fragile. I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing but it does change the way the army plays. DE will remain an army that requires deft handling and is ill suited to the neophyte... and this I like very much.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:41 pm
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I suffered the same issue. I faced off against a Vampire Count who through two pairs of dogs in front of me. I wiped the dogs out but on turn 1, due to some over-runs (stupid Witch Elves who now have to charge AND pursue) my entire line was a mess. I had units take it in the flank the following turn, I had units suddenly un-supported, and others blocked. Re-rolling is amazing but I now see the need for keeping some missile weapons handy.


Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:13 pm
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This is definitly something that we have to think about and incorporate into our tactics Mordu, so thanks for bringing it up. I have heard the same story from other places, for example an Eagle charging a block barely out of it's deployment zone in the rear, clearly losing, and forcing the unit to pursue backwards.

To deal with it we have to switch up out tactics. In 6th, our combat blocks were so weak that we had to use our magic and shooting to soften them up, and in the mean time go after his support units to slowly pick his army apart.

Now, our big combat units are good enough to take on other big combat units, they can crack and break through almost anything and so we don't have to be as conservative with what combats we can expect to win. On the other hand, our shooting and magic got so much better, and cheaper. So now I think that the first priority for our shooting and magic should be these annoying little diverters that could really throw apart the DE battle line through unwanted pursuits, before turning on the bigger scarier stuff which we ourselves have been using Dark Riders/Harpies to divert and have tackled with our highly mobile shock troops.

Great Eagles are going to become priority #1 for our shooting when we play HE, followed by Swordmasters (magic should focus on White Lions since they don't get their added Cloak save against magic).

Another unit that will cause lots of headaches is Pegasus Knights. They are tough, hit hard, AND are flyers so can be incredibly mobile. Exactly what the DE don't want to have to deal with.


Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:23 pm
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Mordru, how, pray tell, did you allow that eagle to get into your flank? what was the rest of your army doing?


Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:54 pm
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Mostlyharmless wrote:
Mordru, how, pray tell, did you allow that eagle to get into your flank? what was the rest of your army doing?


Eagles fly 20". Rxb warriors were deployed 2x5 with a two model or 40mm wide flank.

The other guy was playing as well. I don't seem to understand the question.

The point again as most of the replies to this thread clearly grasp and have addressed is that forced pursuits can be exploited by a skilled opponent and must be addressed.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:14 pm
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Mordru...what most people have said has been that planning ahead is the key. So rather than just saying it bit you in the ass this time, I'm curious if in hindsight, expecting that type of play, you could have compensated, or was it something inevitable?


Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:16 pm
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I understand it has to be compensated for in our plans I am just wondering if anyone else has had experiences dealing with this issue yet. I agree we have to try to plan for it. Unfortunately, it seems the best way to address this is going to be to field more mobile units that can respond to being drawn off course more easily by the simple fact that they have the speed and mobility to respond.

In my view this is going to mean more harpies, dark riders, shades, CoKs and chariots as well as mobile characters. I was hoping that hatred would mean better utility from elite infantry. I am still hoping that is there is a way to minimize this problem facing the army in general and elite infantry in particular.

My purpose in starting this thread was two fold. Firstly, I wanted to bring this issue to the attention of the board because it has not been addressed to any extent in the wake of the new army book. Secondly, I was hoping some folks had thought about it and had some insight that I thus far lacked or that we could get a discussion goin and mull this issue over.

A solution involving something other than, "just make sure to not let the opponent charge you." I concur that avoiding enemy opportunites to charge and create this problem is a laudable goal we should strive to achieve. The reality is that good players are going to get some charges against you despite your best efforts over the course of a game or two even if you play perfectly.

I am hoping that others are addressing this issue and I can learn from their expereinces and perhaps we can all learn something together in the process of kickiong this issue around. Telling people....don't let them charge you is not overly helpful.

In my recent game I could have compensated by allowing the swordmasters to freely advance but that would have been a poor option.

Against eagles an assassin may be the only insurance that is workable as the assassin can muster enough attacks to slay the eagle outright. This is a pricey solution but it may be the best available. I hope the board will give it some thought and help me view this problem from multiple perspectives. This issue is here to stay and countering its effects will have to be incorporated into our play style.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:55 pm
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