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any opinions on what to take agenst an orc army 
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Shade

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:09 pm
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i have an opponent coming up that is going to use an all orc army

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Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:16 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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This should probably be in tactics but anyway.

I have found Witches can be good as Orcs have very little armour.
Terror and Fear causers can easily negate Orcs low Ld as well.

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Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:01 am
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Rumour Lord of Doom
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All Orc? 2 Hydras, dragon and Dark Riders. Harpies to march block. They are slow, unreliable and not as tough as they appear.

-Rex

p.s. Give us some more info on the models you have, the army he likes to use and what tactics he generally employs. Also, this belongs in the tactics forum.

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Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:01 am
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Shade

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sorry about wrong placing but i have 10 dark riders a dragon 14 cold ones 2 sorceress on foot 10 xbowmen 2 bolt throwers one hydra 10 shades 10 witch elves 14 executioners 2 sorceress on steed and thats it

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Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:06 am
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Shade

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he is a new opponet i have noo clue i challenged his gobbo list and he said no im going agenst an all orc army i know he likes savage orc boar boys thats about it though

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Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:08 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Bolt throwers and the hydra will both have their place. Bolt Throwers and crossbow fire will cut up savage orc boar boyz very effectively.

Orc protection can be decent in close combat though, so don't underestimate it. A 4+ armor save and T4 can be tough for our S3 units.

Most of all though, don't underestimate the WAAAAAAAGH!!! charge. It can be very decisive when underestimated, and becomes more lethal when there are plenty of Black Orcs around. Keep that extra movement in mind when placing your units for a charge.

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Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:04 am
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If you want to be chee*cough* nasty, get 2 units of 5 harpies and use them to lure out his fanatics, get the Hydra-Banner into the Cold Ones (a unit of 10 might be nice) and overrun them.

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Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:18 pm
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Basicly:
Witch elves, against troops.
Dark riders to hunt his chariots
Arpies to hunt his warmachines.
Heavy magic, don't forget dispel scrolls.

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Lord of Khorne
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Scorpio, try to have some ideas of your own first...including what units you're thinking of including.

The community is here to help, not here to build your army and play it for you. It's no good if someone suggests a unit you do not own, for example.

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Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:20 pm
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Repeater Bolt Throwers are great, as would be executioners as they should always get the charge against M4 orcs and gobs!

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Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:48 pm
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GreyNightmare wrote:
Repeater Bolt Throwers are great, as would be executioners as they should always get the charge against M4 orcs and gobs!


This isn't necessarily true. As I mentioned, the power of the WAAAAAGH!!! is really underestimated. That additional movement can let greenskins get the charge on units that are normally faster than greenskins, and being on the wrong end of a fully ranked unit of boyz or black orcs with combat character is very nasty.

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Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:00 pm
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If its an all Orc army it should be quite simple really.
The Druchii does 2(3) things that Orcs cannot handle.

1. Nothing in an orc only army is particularly fast. (unless theres a vywern) You can run circles around him and deny him ever seing close combat.

2. An all orc army cant possibly compete with our shooting. They have arrer boys which suck. We have a whole army that can shoot very well.

3. If your using 7ed our magic is far beyond what Orcs can possibly shut down. Orcs are decent at shutting down normal magic but DE's can blast them out of the ballpark.

Conclusion: If you dont mind being super cheesy you could go with a Lord on a manticore just to handle the vywern incase its there. Then full out on sorc's on pegasusses.
For core you take 3 harpy units to march block/charge shooters and go all the way out on DR's with RxB's.
Special and rare... Leave them at home...
Let me say this again. This is super cheesy.
I had the unfortunate experience of fighting a wood elf player who used this tactic against me the first time I played my all Orc army. And DE's just do it 200% better than Woodies.
Basically all Orc armies are the absolute favorite opponent for DE's. This is the kind of battle the DE's have been born to rule.
We can easily take full control of Movement, Magic, Shooting. And then we can deny the Orcs ever using CC which is the only phase they can use against us.

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Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:56 pm
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As for magic, Lore of Fire and Death are handy. the orcs have low leadership and armour saves which means you can send goblin and unaccompanied orc units packing.


Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:53 pm
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Irtehdar wrote:
1. Nothing in an orc only army is particularly fast. (unless theres a vywern) You can run circles around him and deny him ever seing close combat.


Only if you don't plan on using anything other than skirmishers and fast cavalry. Orcs aren't exactly Dwarves, they still have movement, and they're perfectly able to get across a battlefield and into combat with a Dark Elf battle line.

Irtehdar wrote:
2. An all orc army cant possibly compete with our shooting. They have arrer boys which suck. We have a whole army that can shoot very well.


While I wouldOur shooting is definitely better, but that doesn't mean that an Orc army will just roll over and die from our shooting. They have lots of T4 models, and so our S3 and S4 shooting won't exactly reap a huge body count.

Irtehdar wrote:
3. If your using 7ed our magic is far beyond what Orcs can possibly shut down. Orcs are decent at shutting down normal magic but DE's can blast them out of the ballpark.


With one magic banner and a scroll caddy, Orcs can get 6 dispel dice, two scrolls. If they're going magic-heavy, that gets as high as 8 or 9 dispel dice. They're no slouch when it comes to magic defense, and they're not exactly Elves when it comes to fragility and vulnerability to magic missiles.

I do agree though, Dark Elves are a very nasty opponent for Orcs and should do quite well against them. However, that doesn't mean you should underestimate Orcs or simply expect easy results. Orcs are a very easy army to underestimate, and are great at catching opponents by surprise. Their combat characters can scythe through our rank-and-file, and their magic is extremely destructive versus Dark Elves.

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Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:50 am
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i can only agree in what tethlis says. i play half of my games against orcs and zhey seem easy to beat with dark elves, but a decent player can catch you by surprise. i think especially the magic heavy orc armies are nastys against de. only think about gorks foot against shades, lonely sorcs, harpies, chariots, dark riders. you dont need sight no range its just annoying. but you´re right de are still hard to beat for orcs.


Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:22 pm
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Arnold Layne
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Don't forget that Animosity can give them an extra 6" movement. They can get the charge on us sometimes. There's also 'Eadbutt to worry about.

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Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:52 pm
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Ring of Hotek, and a strong magic phase by using Death Magic: good number of S4 Magic missiles, Drain Life for large area effect, Steal Soul on his high toughness warlords, and most important of all: Doom and Darkness.

Mix this with animosity and/or terror and bobs your uncle: I'd recommend landing a Terror causer (dragon/manticore is great but a Deathmask wielding Peg rider can do the job equally well) repeated casting of it on his general so he flees away from the terror causer - towards your lines. He rallies and you can swamp his lord unit on all sides.

Alternatively if you land next to the Warlord's unit so that he flees through his army then their army will have to take panic tests and without the warlords leadership theres a high chance of multiple failures.

Fragment his army in this manner and attack it one unit at a time. March block with harpies and your mix is well and truly ready served piping hot! :D

Good luck, let us know how it goes and as Rork says - its always better if the person asking the question/writing the thread has a more constructive role in the thread. We can help and discuss with you further that way :)

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Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:55 pm
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Warrior

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Had my first battle against Orcs and Goblins just last week (2000pts), only fought High elves previously. Result was deemed a draw with only a few units left alive at the end. A few observations;

Animosity 6" move was dangerous - I received several unexpected charges including Boar Boyz wiping out my Cold One Knights.

Goblins spent most of the battle running away.

Their one Fanatic was a nasty surprise but did as much damage to his own side as the Dark Elves.

Dark Elves did badly in close combat with Black Orcs.

Malekith on Cold One had a terrible day, failing to cast most spells and two miscasts. The final phase was a challenge with a Black Orc combat character (can't remember the name) who with ASF and S7 magic weapon killed Malekith with wounds to spare first round! (Why is Malekith so vulnerable?)

Dark Riders with a Master equipped with Lifetaker were the stars, wiping out Spider Riders, finishing off a Giant and inflicting casualties on a number of other units.

I like the sound of dangerous Beans' suggestions - maybe next time!

Cheers

Antinchip


Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:14 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

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Black Guard simply waste Orcs especially if they have the ASF Banner


Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:25 am
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Shade

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Witches tend to make minced meat out of big orc blocks.
Terror is also very useful, one hydra would be the minimum.

Against Orcs Big Hitter units really excel, since you will most likely face some big blocks with at least 5 Static CR, you need units that can deal with them.
Maybe a solid center of Spears for static CR with witches for active CR and some COK and Hydras to go up the flanks.

If you want to go for magic, lore of death can be useful, since you can make your units cause fear or even terror and reduce enemy leadership. Black Horror is of course an excellent spell against orcs as well.
Make use of their low leadership.


Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:08 am
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@Antinchip
So he took Grimgor did he? Next time use an Assassin with Touch of Death, Black Lotus and Rune of Khaine and charge him straight into him, even if he just kills Grimgor and dies to his Black Orcs he has done his job and has more than paid his worth with them losing a valuable Combat Character and their General.

Anyway back on topic, i'd recommend a Death Hag BSB with ASF to join a Witch Elf unit, they would send any unit of the Orcs crying back to their boss unless they have a Warboss or the Banner of Butchery on Big 'Uns beware them, they pack one hell of a punch. Most of the other suggestions work equally well against Orcs. I wish good luck for you and your Dark Elves.

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Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:05 pm
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Greenskins are in general a combat horde army, which means that they in general will:
  • have many and big (infantry) units
  • have combat support units like chariots, monsters etc.
  • look forward to meeting the enemy in combat asap
  • have a weakness that's inherent to many of their troops


Big infantry blocks have big flanks and without the static combat resolution of their ranks, they will struggle to win combats. Always look for opportunities to attack them at vulnerable spots and try to get behind their lines, either with high movement or breaking through their lines at their weakest spots.

Combat support units for Greenskins means characters on mounts which can equal units (Wyverns, chariots) and things like Chariots, Trolls, Giants etc. Most of them will have some difficulty at least to win combats decisively on their own but teamed up with at least one rank and file unit they can easily dent most battle lines. What's more, they don't suffer from Animosity and therefore can happily keep up the same pace as the other troops (Trolls being the obvious exception). If you can destroy their support units then the blocks will easily fall prey to your higher movement units.

Greenskins will try and advance as quickly as possible to meet your army in hand to hand combat. Generally that means you, having more likely superior missile fire/magic, will want the opposite. Now I'm not saying your army should remain static, to the contrary in fact I'd advise positioning your units in such a way that if they want to move past that wood, their flank will get hit by Witch Elves or get within 6" of the Hydra. Also, harassing units such as Shades, Dark Riders and Harpies will serve well as march blockers. If they have Night Goblins, it's most of the time wise to get a unit of Harpies as close as possible, as fast as possible, so any Fanatics are released when he still has to march forward and may limit the routes of his advance without taking casualties.

Inherent weaknesses of Greenskins of every type against Elves are their lower movement, low leadership and Animosity.

- lower movement means that in roughly 75% of the situations you should be able to get the charge off against them. Sometimes they will have cavalry against your infantry, sometimes they will have Animosity getting them more movement and sometimes you will misjudge the distance between your and their units. However, most of the time you will be able to decide where combat takes place, or whether it should take place at all. This should allow you to hit their vulnerable spots.

- low leadership means that psychology will be most definitely your friend. In fact, if we were to visit each of the psychological effects you will find that most of the time they will be to your advantage by nature, and the rest can be bent in your advantage without too much trouble.

Panic is obvious - 25% casualties will probably be the most common. Focus fire on critical units and don't stop until they are either destroyed (Giants, Chariots [with characters!]) or you have shaved off a quarter of their numbers. The more tests you can cause, the better. If they have a wizard as their general, their leadership will be relatively low even within 12" of the general so let loose the magicks and iron fury of the Druchii.

Fear is more of a double edge as our fear causing units are mostly Cold Ones who suffer from Stupidity. Either keep these combat support units cheap (which admittedly does deny taking advantage of the auto-breaking due to fear) or build them up to the point where they may hold out even when charged - although if you're feeling confident that you can manoeuvre these units out of the enemy's reach then definitely consider these. Remember a character on chariot can negate the enemy's rank bonus.
Note how Goblins fear Elves when they don't outnumber by a margin of two to one at least. If you're feeling evil (duh :P) you may want to direct some missile fire to ensure this is exactly the case.

Both armies have access to flying Terror causing monsters and a Rare Terror causer at movement value 6. The differences being that the Druchii's hit harder, and they resist Terror better. Add to that that an Orc general on Wyvern will either be far away from his troops or not making full use of the monster's capabilities, the Druchii are naturally favoured against these lowly beasts. Moreover, a Giant has no armour save, ward save or regeneration to speak off so it will fall prey quickly to even repeater crossbow fire. If you can drop it while it is in the Greenskins' battle line, it may even kill their own guys.

Stupidity. Pretty much like terror, due to higher leadership the Druchii have the advantage here. Their regeneration makes them dreadfully resistant to most of our missile fire so if you have a magic user, it may prove well worth to choose the Lore of Fire. If they have a magic user as general they will fail their tests about 50% of the time anyway, but it may be nice to suicide-charge some Harpies in them just to try and take them out, rendering the Trolls dangerously vulnerable to all units.

Frenzy is great in such battles. The movement of the Witch Elves is usually sufficient to draw them away from unwanted battles, and there are always Harpies to block line of sight. On the other hands, Harpies and Dark Riders as well as other units you may deem as sacrificial can easily be used to draw Savage Orcs (either mounted or on foot) away and in rather vulnerable spots, allowing you to break through their battle line via the Savage Orcs' flanks, or just drawing the unit so far away it will fail to entirely make an impact on the battle.

Hatred! This gives the Druchii a definite advantage over the Greenskins when combat eventually takes place. If you can make sure the support units are cleared/neutralised, then the downside will have little effect.

Stubborn, the only unit they can have which will be stubborn will be Night Goblins with a magical banner and Snotlings. Their leadership is puny anyway, so not much of a threat anyway. To the contrary, if you need a spot held the Black Guard will answer your call on a rather more reliable leadership value, as will Khainite units when you include a Cauldron.

- Now, Animosity is most typical for the way Greenskin armies work; they either sweep all before them or they will fail epicly. As the rule is pretty straightforward and rather unpredictable, there's little advise to give here. Instead, you should pay heed of the green general calling a Waaagh! which can be a battle breaking move, more so when the majority of the army is made up of Orcs. Your best bet is to march block specific parts of the army so its effect can never be optimised and keep the opponent doubting of when to call it.

On a side note on using Malekith - he isn't meant to sweep all in combat. Much like the rest of the Dark Elf army, he is best used threatening the enemy's army, weakening them with his magical powers and destroying their support units. He can also take on a lot of characters who don't Always Strike First. It's really not so much Malekith sucking as Grimgor being the very epitome of carnage in close combat.


Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:55 pm
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Hydra Lord

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He covered most of it. I play orcs extensively.

What I would say is, don't fight orcs to bog down, you fight to break them in round 1 (your charges)

DE shooting will hurt him bad. Take ranks, cause low-leadership panic tests.

Orcs have amazing magic defense, my 2250 tourney orc list has 8 dispell dice.. I wouldn't necessarily worry about orc magic too much, but I also wouldn't try to overpower it in a 1 off game.

Break Grimgore's unit by flanking it.. don't set up a block across from it. Shoot it, too. IF he has Grimgore with 20 black orcs, he's looking at a 650 point unit. Thats a third of his army.


Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:31 pm
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