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2 War Hydras at 2000-2250 pts - On the Cheese side? 
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Daemon in Disguise
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i don't think my dual hydra list is cheesey at all, take a look.


This isn't what this thread is about.

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I think 2 hydras are about as cheesy as 2 treemen


Nah, 2 Trees is still cheesier, especially because Hydras bounce off Treemen (from personal experience - my tree got rear-charged by a hydra and it only did 1 wound).

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Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:13 pm
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errrr yes it is, the thread says '2 hydras, is this cheese'...and as someone else said, it depends what they are with, so i gave an example


Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:42 pm
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Saying "i've picked 2 Hydrae but the rest of my army is soft, so they're not cheesy" is a flawed arguement.

If i use 2 STanks and nothing but Halberdiers would the STanks not count as cheese?

I think the answer is yes, they still would.

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Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:42 pm
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not really coz stanks are in a different league, and anyway i'd just aim everything at them and hope for the best

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Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:44 pm
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Grez and Comrade Igor, this thread was not made for a debate on whether or not something is defined as cheesy, it was made to discuss whether or not double Hydras are a bit over the top. Just catching this topic before it goes any farther off topic as I'm currently enjoying the Double Hydra and am actively reading this thread!

As for whether or not its cheesy, I think it depends on your Warhammer opponent. Is he playing a Fluffy empire list with many halberdiers with only 1 cannon? Then yes, its a bit over the top. Is he playing Double stank and Karl Franz? Then nope. See what I'm saying?

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:11 am
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I'm gonna vote No - 2 Hydra Lists are not cheesy. But it really matters what your friends think. The game is about Two people having fun.

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:35 am
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I think it really does depend on the list you are using. For example if you use a heavy magic, vp denial army with two hydras for hittyness then yeah I would probably say its a little cheesy. I mean, they are VERY good for the points.

However, in a themed, fluffy list I think they can be justified. (However, this may be a little biased because I am thinking about making just such a list :D )


Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:32 am
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The Tamer of Sea Dragons
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1. sorry for starting an arguement (but he started it lol)
2.i think they are cheesy depending on what your facing, or if you pair them up.
2 hydras side by side is cheesy as literally nothing will stop them in combat


Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:03 am
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cheesy cheesy cheesy...you guys left your pants at home! :P

I can't even begin to understand why people use the words cheesy on stuff like hydras when they have that "other league" to talk about...Dragons?Thirsters?Black Coaches?Warp Lighting Cannons?...
Black Guard are what?CoK?Semi-Cheesy?and warriors are what?25% Cheesy?
I think people are starting to become way too sensitive...if someone refuses to play me because I use 2 hydras and a dragon, I have no choice but to call him a wuss...enough is enough.

Stop with all the cheese talk, it's getting really old...;)


Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:34 am
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Columind wrote:
if someone refuses to play me because I use 2 hydras and a dragon, I have no choice but to call him a wuss...enough is enough.


A wuss? No, because he doesn't want to have a game where he won't have fun. Warhammer is a game where both side should have fun, if someone refuses to play because he knows that he won't have fun, he's not a wuss, he's actually don't want to lose his time for nothing.


Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:40 am
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Last time I checked, I have 2250 pts and he also has 2250 pts...there is a lot of things inside 2250 pts that can hurt 2 hydras and a Dragon, it all depends on his mastery (and will) to think about them and use them wisely.

If he doesn't even try and just gives up as soon as he sees them, yes, he's a wuss.

I also want to have fun, and the best way to have fun is to play with fair play, by the rules and not cheating, not to give up using certain units just because people don't have imagination to deal with them. By that reasoning, let's take out every thing that's "cheesy" and play all human armies, just throwing dice around.

GW did several armies, each with it's uber units...DE are finally better at this while still worse than many others. I can't accept people who won't play against the whole range of models at their disposal and at least try to beat them to their amusement. Warhammer is a War and Strategy game, you can't always assume you'll have equal or more power than your opponent, you just have to think about ways to tip the balance in your favour - with your brain!

Fun is also watching 2 hydras and a dragon fail. You just have to work your way towards that instead of calling cheese and not even trying..it's easier to give up than to think about it.


Last edited by Columind on Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:45 am
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It mostly depends on the environment you play in. In my group we consider Dragons point and click etc, so two hydras would most likely be considered cheesy. I have played at a number of hobbyshops where such things are well within the realm of 'fairplay' so if i were you I would simply ask around before you play.


Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:52 am
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I am happy to say, fortunately for me and for my way of thinking, that in Portugal I have yet to see someone say "I won't play that guy because he's brought a dragon with him and I only play infantry!".

People choose what they want to use, and you'd be surprised how certain seemingly harmless stuff can hurt a dragon...people just don't think about it that much. Look at TK for example. People have a very hard time dealing with Dragons because their shooting and their units aren't exactly fit to be a decent matchup for a flying Steam Tank. But are they hopeless?NO. They use their own tricks and manouvre in order to survive and deal with it.

"When your opponent has a kind of unit that is too powerful or too hard to beat, avoid it and kill the rest" - Wise words that have been said thousands of times in this forum, ever since it was founded.

In my gaming clubs, cheesy are certain unkillable and uber special characters, period.
Sure we make fun and frown upon certain builds or even units sometimes, but we never refuse to play or play with "personal hatred" just because a guy brought a thirster with him.

He brought a Thirster?I usually have 40 skinks ;)

That's one way to have fun, but obviously not the only one.


Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:59 am
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Careful now, getting a bit flamey. I daresay that in the end, it's each player's responsiblity to enjoy his part in a battle. We may say it's cheesy : your opponents may take it as a challenge, like Columind says, or they may call cheese on you too. Then there's the flip side of this argument. Where do you draw the line? Say your opponent says two Hydras is cheese. What about one Hydra? What about two Manticores? What if he says OMG Black Gaurd, OMGcheezxors of hax! When does your opponent's fun factor cut too much into your own?

To be honest and specific, I agree with Columind. Sure it sucks to have ass handed to you by an extreme list, but it feels pretty good to hand it back with your own extreme list. Maybe some people have reasons why they won't make an extreme list. Fluff worship is one, finance another. Some people can't afford steam tanks.

In the end, you can only try it and see.

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:02 pm
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Columind wrote:
That's one way to have fun, but obviously not the only one.


That's why I said that calling the player a "wuss" because he doesn't want to play against you being an acceptable behavior. I mean, if you play with people that only plays with extreme list, fine but if you play with people that plays with friendly list, it's not the time to take out all the extreme power.

I prefer friendly list, it's my choice and I would refuse to play a friendly game against an anvil gunline because I hate that, not because I may lose, because I just don't like that kind of gameplay. In tournaments, I play against them because I have to but outside tournament, I just don't play against them.

Call me a wuss like you want but I play to have fun not to win at all cost.

Columind wrote:
I also want to have fun, and the best way to have fun is to play with fair play, by the rules and not cheating, not to give up using certain units just because people don't have imagination to deal with them.


What's fair play for you? If it's fair play is just following the rules, you forgot something then. It's also about your attitude and the fact that you would call someone a wuss because he knows that he won't have fun toward a list doesn't make you sound like you are fair play.

I may repeat myself, but the goal of a game is to have fun and if someone decline because he knows that he won't have fun, it's his choice and you'll have to accept it.

Anyway, this is off topic..


Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:31 pm
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Fair play is not cheating, accepting wins and losses with an inner smile, whether it's : "That's ok,I'll win next time" or "Ah, what a fine win" and being able to present flexibility during rules trouble or even gameplay.

But I don't think fair play is allowing myself to give up taking certain models and using certain interesting list builds just because my opponent is too sensitive to play them. If you can't play with a little bit of risk and challenge, then I'm the one who wouldn't play with you...It's like going to a friendly football match and refuse to play because the other guys are taller or bigger than you. I say if you want to play the game, you can't be all made of glass, you accept it's rules or don't play at all...otherwise, send e-mail to GW complaining that hydras shouldn't be allowed...and then add Dragons and all the other duzens of units that actually do some real damage, and pretty soon we'll all play checkers again, instead of Warhammer.
If my attitude is merely a challenging one (and not a desperate all-or-nothing), you have no moralistic reason not to try.

This is a game, with rules and with a certain ammount of competition envolved. Sure, you can't just bet it all on ruthless competition, because that would make you vulnerable to a certain degree of madness and ass...holness, but whoever says this game is just about bringing cute models and rolling friendly dice and not also seeing your beautiful models win, is full of it.

There is always a certain will to win, to accept the challenge of the strategic game and outsmart your opponent, otherwise it wouldn't be a game!!! It would be a fluff and painting competition and formal and dull dice rolling. Take chess for example, much similar to warhammer but with less unpredictability and variety of options...do you play chess just to spend your time moving cute marble pieces around and see your opponent smile?Or do you try to give him the fun challenge to try to outsmart you? Even when he's closing in on the checkmate and your odds are worse, do you quit the table and say: this is no fun, I won't play?


Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:55 pm
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Columind wrote:
Take chess for example, much similar to warhammer but with less unpredictability and variety of options...do you play chess just to spend your time moving cute marble pieces around and see your opponent smile?Or do you try to give him the fun challenge to try to outsmart you? Even when he's closing in on the checkmate and your odds are worse, do you quit the table and say: this is no fun, I won't play?


What the heck... You didn't understand what I said at all, that or you don't even read what I've said. Also your example isn't even good since both side of the chess is the same.

I'll take your example and use it in the real side. Would you play a game against someone that has all his chess pieces as Queens and you as the normal set? I would personnally not. But if both side has Queens on their side, that's not the same story.

I won't resume this discussion because it's totally useless because you don't even seem to read my post and it's way off topic.


Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:11 pm
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I read your post, and comparing 2250 pts of any army with 2250 pts of any other army, with having one side full of queen chess pieces and the other a normal set is exactly the kind of extremist view that should be frowned upon either powergaming lustfull players or over sensitive opponents that cry cheese whenever they see anything but regular human-stat units on the other side.

Most of the times, the real side you're talking about is just the ability to pick up some DR and Harpies and go after that warplightning cannon or just sit at the back and say: oh well, he'll just shoot and kill whatever I send it's way, what's the use?

I play LZ a lot, and believe me my opponents often underestimate the power of a couple of lucky skink units versus a Dragon...do you see me running away with them just because he's toughness 6 and I'm Strenght 3? There is always something that can be done about a few more queen chess pieces on the other side, GW often gives us some answers on that. Some see them, others don't mind because it's not textually there. All I'm saying is that you should try more and complain less...it's a game, not a massage.

Anyway, we're different...if anyone keeps playing a skaven SAD over and over again just because it's easier to win with, I keep trying to find out ways to beat him and often face the failed attemps with humor, as well as making fun of him, as the guy that won't risk it's reputation either, instead of getting angry and leaving the room.


Last edited by Columind on Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:15 pm
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I have to agree with columind. Sure playing against extreme lists gets well... extremely lame but its also a challenge I thoroughly enjoy.

Also, please if this discussion continues lets get it a bit more on track about the Hydras and the Dark Elf list in General. I can't remember the last time I used my overpowered Queen army!

-Rex

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:23 pm
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anyways.......... back to hydras..............

regardless of what you see as cheese or not cheese (this, in my opinion, should be excluded from this discussion), lets review our other options, and make our decision from there.

Hydras: undeniably extremely nasty in combat, terror, breathe fire, and why the *&#% do beastmaster's attacks have killing blow? does that make any sense? I think the hydra is guilty of the notorious 7th edition power creep.

CoB: I *personally* have no experience with this unit in the new edition, however everyone keeps saying that they are much more worthless than they could have/should have been with the new 7th edition power creep.

RBT: Apart from HE's bolt throwers, they are the best bolt throwers in the game, with their ability to rapid fire. They can be tailored to hurt almost any unit, with 1 S6 attack, or D6 S4, and the only thing they have going against them is that because their crew now re-rolls misses, they have to pursue the enemy (provided they get charged in the first place)


I think that doubling up on hydras, while it provides the additional challenge of having 8 wounds of nasty death running about on the board, is made up for the fact that we COULD field 4D6 S4 AS -2 shots, or any combination herein.

In summary, if you followed my logic, you would come to the conclusion that while it would be a difficult army to play against, it isn't necessarily unfair or unsportsmanlike (the true definition of cheese).

Make sense?

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:25 pm
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Saedron wrote:
why the *&#% do beastmaster's attacks have killing blow? does that make any sense? I think the hydra is guilty of the notorious 7th edition power creep.

They don't have killing blow. They have AP. And the whole book is 'guilty' of the 7th edition power creep.
Quote:
RBT: Apart from HE's bolt throwers, they are the best bolt throwers in the game, with their ability to rapid fire.
I guess your talking about crew in relation to how good the RBT's are as the function of both in the shooting phase is identical.

But both the HE and DE bolt throwers are the weakest warmachines in the game not even the strongest bolt throwers.

Also they shoot 6 shots not d6 shots.

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:35 pm
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Zeth wrote:
not even the strongest bolt throwers.


Pray tell, which *are* the strongest Bolt Throwers in the game then?

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:59 pm
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Pray tell, which *are* the strongest Bolt Throwers in the game then?
Agreed. I see Goblin Spear Chukkas and Dwarven Bolt Throwers (same BS 4, but don't have the option for rapid fire). I will give it to you, Zeth, that bolt throwers are weaker than many other war machines, but HE and DE bolt throwers are both more powerful than spear chukkas or the dwarven counterparts.

Quote:
They don't have killing blow. They have AP. And the whole book is 'guilty' of the 7th edition power creep... ...Also they shoot 6 shots not d6 shots.


My mistake, I meant AP. I must not have been thinking that clearly, because the d6 / 6 shots thing was also just a slip up. My bad.

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:07 pm
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Saedron wrote:
Quote:
Pray tell, which *are* the strongest Bolt Throwers in the game then?
Agreed. I see Goblin Spear Chukkas and Dwarven Bolt Throwers (same BS 4, but don't have the option for rapid fire). I will give it to you, Zeth, that bolt throwers are weaker than many other war machines, but HE and DE bolt throwers are both more powerful than spear chukkas or the dwarven counterparts.


I disagree, I would rather have 2 bolt throwers for the same price with a stubborn crew at T4 then one of our bolt throwers. Not to mention the rune options, S7, flaming.

And as for spear chukka's 3 for the price of our RBT? any day.

I'd probably rate the dwarven bolt throwers as the best of the mundane bolt throwers.

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The real problem is:

1 Hydra just isn't enough to be all that effective. 2 RBt are the same way. We are pretty much bottlenecked into taking double rares for a tournament list and even then, we are going to get hit hard on comp.

-Rex

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