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Are many people using Witch Elves? 
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Cold One Knight
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Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:37 pm
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Is anyone using Witch elves reguarly? I have recently been considering their hitting power now that hatred is combined with poison. I know Witch Elves have the weakness of frezny and being shot at but our army is well set up to deal with these threats especially with cheap harpies now in core.

When I did some sums i was really impressed with the killing power Witch Elves could kick out for a fairly cheap unit.

Consider this unit:

14 Witch Elves: hag, manbane, Standard, Banner of Murder, Musician: 215pts

Now if they charge (using harpies if needed as bait etc. so another 55pts) here is the average damage the would do against the following units;
They can go 7 or 8 wide dependant on what they are facing.

Zombies (bottom of the line stuff we would expect them to do well against)

Unit: (18 Attacks, 16 hits 4 poison, 8 normal wounds) = 12
Hag: (4 attacks, 3.55 hits , 2.37 wounds)
[url]Total: 14.37[/url]Alot but this the kindest of examples.

Ghouls (probably more likely you would face these quite alot)

Unit: (18 Attacks, 16 hits 4 poison, 4 normal wounds) = 8
Hag: (4 attacks, 3.55 hits , 2.37 wounds)
[url]Total: 10.37[/url] Impressive against a decent unit but no armour is in our benefit.

Empire Swordsmen (decent unit but still pretty vulnerable)

Unit: (18 Attacks, 13.5 hits 4.5 poison, 4.5 normal wounds, 5+ save) = 6
Hag: (4 attacks, 3 hits , 2 wounds, 6+ save) 1.66
[url]Total: 7.66[/url] Again impressive but the unit isn't great.

Dwarf Warriors (same as hammerers or Long Beards defensively)

Unit: (18 Attacks, 13.5 hits 4.5 poison, 3 normal wounds, 4+ save) = 3.75
Hag: (4 attacks, 3 hits , 2 wounds, 6+ save) 1.66
[url]Total: 5.41[/url] Impressive against a good yard stick of a defensive unit.

Blood Knights (pretty scary unit but can be lured in with their frenzy)

Unit: (21 Attacks, 15.75 hits 5.25 poison, 3.5 normal wounds, 3+ save) = 2.91
Hag: (4 attacks, 3 hits , 2 wounds, 5+ save) 1.33
[url]Total: 4.24[/url] Pretty stunning IMO decimating one of the most dangerous units in the game.

Now i'm not trying to say Witch Elves are the best thing since sliced bread, there are units (empire knights/HE) whihc cause lots of problems, but i'm thinking with that kind of killing power (which is especially helpful versus Daemons and VC's) should be worth fitting a unit in an army fairly reguarly.


Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:33 pm
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Roleplaying Deity
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instead of giving the hag manbane i always go for witchbrew. Manbane only effects the hag whereas witchbrew effects the whole unit and makes them a lot less likely to lose a combat from enemy SCR. The enemy is only getting CR for wounds and rank bonus, which is a lot greater benefit considering WE normally dont have ranks or numbers.

I am using them however, running 1x 17 in one list and 3x 15 in another list although these have not yet been taken to the battlefield. The only problem i have with taking them is the expensive model cost.


Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:05 pm
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Highborn
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The Witches are frenzy, any decent player will set you up for a flank or rear. then witchbrew comes to the rescue

If i dont froget hatred my girls just tend to turn into a whirlwind of blades blood and death

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:28 pm
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Warrior

Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:03 am
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Location: Lincoln, UK
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I tend to use two units of 12, with full command (and toys depending on my mood). With back up for the Cauldron, they are a very nice unit. They can be given 4 attacks each, and tear through low quality troops, or killing blow to take apart tin cans. The 5+ ward gives them some defence in the early turns. And don't forget the stubborn - if they do end up in a bad spot, the stubborn can let them hang on until the cavalry (or black guard!) arrive.

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:04 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:13 pm
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I'm going to be running a nice big unit of 24, in a 6x4 formation initially (obviously this can be altered in-game) ... I'm not that fussed about the Frenzy, they have the movement to anticipate any baits and the rest of the army is fast enough to either keep pace or help out.

I've half a mind to stick the Banner of Nagarythe with a BSB in there and use them like Flagellants... get a few units to 'stick' to them and then clean up with BG and Cold Ones.

When I get them painted I'll be back with a report :)


Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:07 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Youtr numbers for fighting undead are largely irrelevant since you will struggle to prevent the VC player either growing some zombies on a 45 degree angle to your WE to expose their flank. or stopping him vanhel's his units into you or give them strikes first. Also, almost every VC army will have the helm of commandment to boost the ws of key units at key times. Fighting WE is usually a key time.

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:19 pm
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Noble
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I like 11 of them with just musician. Cost just 115 points but brought down 2 beasts of nurgle all alone in just 2 phases.

They are pretty good when combined with cauldron but I don´t see many uses for them if you don´t have it. Same goes for executioners. 11 with musician and lets go...


Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:35 pm
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Shade
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repeat post - sorry


Last edited by Ukko on Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:53 pm
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Shade
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repeat post - sorry


Last edited by Ukko on Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:55 pm
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Shade
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I've been fielding 10 (set up 7+3) and they work pretty well I have to say. Against undead, daemons, or anything with low armour their uses are obvious but against shooty armies I've done the following to good effect - send them straight towards the most dangerous missile unit. Your opponent now has to choose whether to ignore the other panicable and vulnerable troops and shoot the WE (that 100 point unit's death meaning your other troops get there intact, sweet) or ignore them (which is fine as it means that missile unit is going to die in the third turn). It'll need two turns of shooting to kill them because even if only 2 witchs make it they'll demolish most shooting units.

Against chaos and combat dwarfs they can be used in a similarly direct manner by not allowing blocks to turn to face flankers and against brets or other cavalry heavy armies they can sit back and countercharge when harpies or DR flee through them.

Mostly though, at 100 points they're the perfect diversion in my limited experience - they make people surprisingly nervous :twisted:


Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:57 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Dark Elves are really good at making the opponent nervous and Witches do it the best!
My opponents never know what to do, will the Witches rip their force to pieces or rather more likely charge into combat and fail to kill anything?

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Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:54 pm
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The Aspect of Murder
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Heartrender wrote:
instead of giving the hag manbane i always go for witchbrew. Manbane only effects the hag whereas witchbrew effects the whole unit and makes them a lot less likely to lose a combat from enemy SCR. The enemy is only getting CR for wounds and rank bonus, which is a lot greater benefit considering WE normally dont have ranks or numbers.


I don't agree with this. The kills a hag can generate almost always outweigh the benefits of Witch Brew.

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Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:52 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I find the witch elves to be the slaughter machine of the army several times. I'd say they are really cheap compared to what they can do, and allthough frenzy can make things hard for you, my rather aggressive style of playing seems to fit well together with the witch elves.

I am planning on having 21 large witch elf unit (7x3) with hag and banner of murder... also, with the cauldron of blood, I could give them killing blow against heavy armored units, and the extra attack against the softer units.

I guess their biggest weakness in close combat would be against units that strikes them first. Maybe an assassin amongst the crazed witches would do the trick


Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:24 am
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Warrior
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One thing about Witch Elves is the attention they draw. They look different than much of the rest of the army (all that pale, exsposed flesh with the usuallty dark paint most other units get) and the aura of potential that frenzy poses (possibly a hangover from the double attack days) and people will often devote extra magic or firepower to keep them out of the fight.

I like them in small batches with two to three ranks, but I don't see a reason to have larger numbers than that in a single reason and I wouldn't want to trust such an unstable unit with having two or three slots.

In summary I think you have to balance a unit with not being too big that they waste points (a fourth or third rank even in my opinon is useless in most average size battles) and not so small that your opponent can easily brush them off with a good round of shooting or magic.

As for keeping people from using skirmishers or shooting to limit them, I think the Dark Elves should be able to prevent that. We have enough magic and shooting that a small unit shouldn't pull your Witch Elves out of battle and they should have better things to worry about with magic than them.


Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:27 am
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Dark Rider
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I normally take a unit of 15 (or 18 if they're 6 wide) but no more as any block larger than that will draw too much attention as Tones said. Then you'll have to face the unit getting shot to heck or fried by magic. If you're taking a large block then a CoB is nearly essential to give them some manner of protection (even if it's not the best).

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Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:33 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:45 am
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I've come to think that one should not use more than 12 (maybe with musician and hag). In fact more than that is expensive, and often the ennemy won't fear it too much (at least less than 15 BG for instance) whereas 12 is already really killy. Here is the trap.
Anybody should use them, at least for the minis.


Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:26 am
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