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What Lore do you take Vs which army 
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Shade

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:14 pm
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I wanted to bring this up, hopefully for the DRAICH. I have a list of all of the following armies below. The question is, when you take magic, and you know your facing that army, which lore do you want to take? Stay general for now (for example we can get further threads going into khorne daemons vs mixed daemons) but if you want to make an argument for more then one lore against a certain army go right ahead.

So armies:
Beasts of Chaos
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Dark Elves
Dwarves
Empire
High Elves
Lizardmen
Ogre Kingdom
Orcs and Goblins
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Vampire Counts
Warriors of Chaos
Wood Elves

So start your post with what army you want to do and then what lore or lores you would take. If you want to get into lore combos or exceptional spells against that army feel free to as well. And if you think magic would be completely useless against that army feel free to say so.


Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:07 pm
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Some lores are obviously better against some armies but generally it depends on the exact build of both your and your opponents army as well. Sometimes taking different lores with each sorceress is a good idea as well.

Generally though;
Lore of Fire - Wood Elves, Vampire Counts with Regen banner
Lore of Metal - Dwarves, Chaos Mortals, Brettonians

Armies with lots of (preferably small) units - Lore of Death for Drain Life and Walking Death.; Orcs and Goblins; Other Dark Elf armies; Wood Elf armies

Armies with small units and good armour saves. ie Brettonians; Dark Magic

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Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:11 am
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Mostly I use dark magic but fire is nice to have against treekin, etc... overall, the dark lore is slightly stronger in my experience as the chill wind is very useful and the new and improved black horror is devestating.

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Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:25 am
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Chillwind and Black Horror are nice but our other spells are sadly somewhat lacking. The new Bladewind and Doombolt just don't compare to similar spells from other lores.
Also Black horror's casting value is very high meaning you need 4 dice to cast it on average which doesn't leave you with much left over. Your opponent however usually has 5 dispel dice and can still stop Black Horror and than your magic phase is pretty much over.

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Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:32 am
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The Guiding Eye
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Beasts of Chaos:
- Dark (high strength MMs/large damage spells),
- Death (Ld reduction, steal soul, S4 vs T4, cause fear)
- Fire (S4 hits)

Brettonia:
- Dark (high strength MMs/large damage spells with armour modifiers),
- Fire (lots of S4 hits),
- Metal (good vs armoured units),
- Death (lower LD, armour modifiers, S4)
- Shadow (movement - get the charge on their Cav + cause fear & 1 no armour save spell

Daemons of Chaos:
- Fire (stop nurgle regen/hurts daemonettes easily with S4)
- Shadow (pit of shades vs Nurgle charas/units, movement gets you the charges, cause fear to negate auto-fleeing)
- Dark (high number of good strength attacks)
- Death (S4, auto wound, fear, LD for 'pop' tests)

Dark Elves:
- Dark = good strength, anti armour and #1 = anti-missile spell,
- Fire = S4 and lots of hits
- Shadow = movement, fear and anti armour. Pit vs Hydras/Dragons
- Metal = antiarmour/chariot/warmachine & magic items
- Death = fear, auto-wound on monsters, S4 and Ld modifier

Dwarves:
- Fire = S4
- Dark = anti missile, high str and anti armour (horror = ace)
- Shadow = catapult lord/hero into warmachines/anvil (try the exe axe vs a runelord - watch for the anti-magic weapon rune though!), fear = autobreak dwarves, Pit = suberb esp vs ironbreakers.
- Death = ld reduction, S4, autowound and no armour save + fear
- Metal = anti armour & warmachine & magic items

tbh Im not going to explain so much Im just going to list my opinions on the lores - I've summarised each lores advantages in the above 5 armies anyway so it should be easy to figure my reasoning! :D The lores are also now in order of importance/usefulness.

Empire:
- Dark
- Shadow
- Metal
- Death
- Fire

High Elves:
- Dark
- Death
- Metal

Lizardmen:
- Dark
- Death
- Shadow
- Fire

Ogre Kingdom:
- Shadow
- Death
- Dark
- Fire

Orcs and Goblins:
- as ogres

Skaven:
- Death
- Dark
- Fire
- Metal

Tomb Kings:
- Shadow
- Death
- Metal
- Dark
- Fire

Vampire Counts:
- Death
- Shadow
- Fire
- Dark
- Metal

Warriors of Chaos:
- Death
- Metal
- Fire
- Dark
- Shadow

Wood Elves:
- Dark
- Fire
- Death
- Shadow

Thats my thoughts - I'll post more in a few days.

- Beanz

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Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:44 am
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The Guiding Eye
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Bounce wrote:
The new Bladewind and Doombolt just don't compare to similar spells from other lores.

Sorry dude, I know this is off topic but I can't really agree with you on any of your points! Doombolt doesnt compare to which spells? D6 S5 hits is damned sweet if you ask me! The only competitors for a 6+ or low casting spell is the Skavens Warp Lightning which is 7+ but 24" and has a 2nd mode - granted thats better than ours but its also the only spell their level 2s can have - they dont have the flexiability in their spells that we do.
Bladewind is simply marvelous too - it particularly comes into its own again warmachines because theyre combat hits so you can select how theyre allocated (ie. all vs the crew! :D).
If you mean beyond this and that theyre only WS4 and hitting enemies like high elves on 4s - well cast Word of Pain on their unit first!

Its all subjective dude - I love the fact that dark elves still require you to be a cunning and very wiley opponent: you have to still pull the nasty and underhanded tactics to get the most out of your spells! So the enemy keep dispelling your Power of Darkness that you choose to cast early on? Ok, take lots of power stones and blast through their defences, then after that rejuvenate your magic phase with PoD and hit them some more!

Combining other lores with dark give us a VERY strong lore - Death magic's Doom and Darkness for eg. is my most favourite spell in the game: doom and darkness on a unit, clip the unit with the large template whilst covering a lot of the unit next to them - kill 1 man and theyre almost undoubtedly fleeing.

Dude magic is a very subtle and random element of warhammer - many argue that it doesnt win games on its own. No it doesnt. and its tricky getting the balance of magic in your force (too much magic = no army! too few = ineffective) but once settled well it really does dominate the game very easily - its all about the mix and match of spell lores. What spells you roll is always a clincher for magic (many dislike the fact they dont roll the spell theyre hoping for - well tough! Adapt! Make the most of what you have - think through the strengths of your spells on the enemies army.)

Sorry dude, you hit a raw nerve of mine - I don't mean to sound irritable: I'm just trying to illustrate that theres more to magic than meets the eye - experimentation and perseverence whilst making armylist tweaks goes a long way to turning magic into a devastating force that is rightly feared. Our lore is excellet - you just need to explore its options some more!

- Beanz

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Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:59 am
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Executioner
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I'd just like to add to the discussion that I usually roll a different lore on one wizard if I have more than one. So for example my level 4 would roll on Dark Magic and the level 2 on Metal if fighting against dwarfs. I also always give at least one mage dark magic.

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Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:43 am
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One more comment about choosing lores with different wizards against the opponent:
It often helps to differentiate between your wizards: some are there to get the spell #1, others to get a wide range. Lvl2s are best for getting the spell #1 and then another spell hich may or may not be tailored against that opponent; Lvl4 is for getting a variety of spells.

Let's take the example of vampires. What we need against them in the magic phase is to kill characters first and foremost. This means that it would be good to take metal on two or three of your Lvl2s to target the vampires with the default spell. If you get an extra spell that's very useful against your opponent with some of them - very good. On the Lvl4 you could have three choices: fire if you want to have a mainly damage-dealing magic phase, shadow if you want to go for the chance of getting the lurker and dark if you want the Lvl4 to join the mage-hunting game and at the same time contridute to damage-dealing.


Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:19 am
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Shade
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I always use Dark Magic. Cuz I'm a Dark Elf player.

Anything else would be uncivilized.

And as for the relative strength of DE magic: There are almost no limitations to targeting with the list's most powerful spells. Word of Pain, Soul Stealer, and Black Horror do not need line of sight. They can be cast through trees, buildings, walls, units, etc.

The former two can also target units in CC, and Black Horror doesn't target any unit at all. You can place the template with its center ANYWHERE within 18 inches of the caster. That means you can multiple units if you want--causing half the other army to take panic tests--or units in combat! Without LoS restriction! Just imagine the possibilities!

Oh dear. That's heady stuff.


Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:58 pm
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I'm surprised that Metal wasn't listed for use against Wood Elves.
Best lore against em actually (:
Fire wounds Treemen on 6s and still has 4+ armor from 3+ scaly

Metal wounds Treemen on 5s (spell 1 & 6) and allows no armor save.

A single Spirit of the Forge will usually cause 4 to 8 wounds on a Treeman (2 to 4 wounding hits).

Law of Gold can help you go around their 3+ ward save or stop their hail of doom

The normal 2d6S4 flaming is always good

Spell #3 is incredibly good against em, -1 to -1 to wound means his wardancers will have a harder time getting the CR they need to break someone on the charge.

I also killed a Charlie (Alter noble with great weapon) that was headed straigth for my warmachines by casting a Spirit of the Forge, he had 4+ armor save which meant 2d6 S4 no armor save and his 4+ ward against magic missiles couldn't be taken since Spirit of the Forge isn't one.


Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:14 pm
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It depends on more than the race of the army I am facing. It also depends on how many wizards I have, the rest of my army composition, and the specific type of army my opponent is fielding.

For example, against an Empire player who likes to use a gunline, I'll take Dark Magic for Chillwind and the ability to shut down some of that shooting. If he fields a lot of knights, Lore of Metal can be a better bet. Also, if I have a terror-causer or a means to cause lots of panic tests (such as heavy shooting) I will often take Death magic on a level 4 in hopes of getting Doom and Darkness.

There are just so many variables here ...

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Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:23 pm
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I take two sorceresses on average, one with Dark and one with Death.

Pretty versatile, with plenty of damage done, and I've never had much to complain about with either.

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Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:28 pm
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Death is not the Lore I´d use against Daemons or Undead. The -3 ld thingy does not work with ItP stuff. The fear/terror is only mildly helping as there are other ways to get that which does not need PDs.

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Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:32 pm
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@ Dangerous Beanz. I agree that magic is subtle and not game winning by itself but I feel that doombolt for instance isn't worth it. We already have a "small" spell in our lore of Chillwind. Doombolt does almost the exact same thing but at 1 higher strength and without the shooting penalty. i would much prefer having a spell that does 2d6 hits even if it require 7+ or 8+ to cast.

Similar with Bladewind. It just isn't as good as many spells because aside from warmachines it doesn't do a lot.
Generally 10 hits, 5 wounds actually killing 3 models. There are just so many spells in other lores which I personally prefer as they are a bit more subtle but have greater effects like Walking Death to cause Terror.

That's why I personally never use Dark Magic unless going up against an enemy with huge blocks of heavily armoured troops just asking to be Horrored.

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Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:45 pm
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In order of preference,depending on the enemy units and rules (GT/ETC):

Beastmen:Dark,Fire,Metal
Bretonnia:Dark,Metal
Dwarfs:Dark,Shadows,Metal
Demons:Dark,Fire,Metal
Empire:Metal,Dark
High Elves:Dark
Lizardmen:Shadows,Dark,Fire
Chaos:Metal,Dark
Ogre Kingdoms:Dark,Shadows
Orcs:Dark,Shadow,Fire
Skaven:Dark,Fire
Tomb Kings:Dark
Vampires:Dark,Metal,Fire
Wood Elves:Dark,Fire
Dark Elves:Dark,Fire

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Last edited by Releaser... on Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:56 am
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Hello from your resident magic phase tactica author. After scanning this post (as it did direct to me on the initial thread starter lol), I agree with both Silver and Beans on spell choice against different adversaries. But I did have some grievences with certain "comments" made towards are much improved magic list.

Doombolt is not a +1 strength version of Chillwind. They do have some variants, however both have great effects and command respect on the tabletop. Bladewind has more uses than just warmachine hunting, as low save/toughness troops with low WS (see Magic Phase Tactica under the Dark magic post), troops (i.e. zombies not under the influence of the WS7 crown, Skaven Slaves, reg human troops). You have to be willing to have an open mind to their uses, not just sneer due to scanning the spells description, or even using it on some (but not all) enemies.

You are entitled to your opinions about the spells of course, therein lies the beauty of this game. But to say that those two spells in particular aren't up to snuff with the rest (chillwind gives those additional +1's to lion cloaks/SDC's and certain other items in game) is not IMo an acurate description of the spell or its uses. Not belittling you, just asking you to experiment and draw a much broader sence of their use in battle. Thanks for your time, and remember that this isn't a knock at your opinion, just letting you know to be aware of more than 2 uses. Thanks.

Edit: If this goes on I'll have to add a possible Magic use flowchart to the D.R.A.I.C.H. Magic Phase Tactica under Choosing a lore that's best for your army, and the enemy, if i do this, then i'll need some all around assistance with research. Later.......

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Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:11 am
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Shade
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Darluith wrote:

Doombolt is not a +1 strength version of Chillwind.


Lol Darluith is right. Doombolt isn't just a slightly better version of Chillwind; it is actually WORSE than Chillwind in that it has a shorter range and doesn't negate shooting. ;)

I agree with Bounce about Doombolt. It's not that great and it's really really boring.

@ Bounce: Bladestorm is different though; it has a sneaky side! You can take out enemy mages and characters in units one wound at a time with it, and that's sufficiently underhanded to earn its place in the Dark Elf arsenal.


Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:24 am
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I haven't tried Bladewind yet so maybe it was better than I thought.
Overall i think our lore has got better than it was but is still somewhat situational. and losing the +1 to cast will make casting spells like Black horror and Soul Stealer difficult as compared to some lores we have very high casting values. I would say use dark Lore if you are going magic heavy but if you only want to use 1 Sorceress perhaps a different lore is a better choice.

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Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:32 am
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Shade
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Just remember, there are hardly any casting restrictions for half of the Dark Magic list; you don't have to see the target, they can be in combat, etc.

Black Horror doesn't even need a target. You can put the template ANYWHERE within 18 inches.

That's sneaky and underhanded. That's Dark Elves.

Word.


Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:03 am
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Bladewind=Taking out those pesky warmachine crew :D


Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:34 am
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