D.R.A.I.C.H. :: Sylvan Stalkers 2250 (Shade-Star)

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Furgil
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D.R.A.I.C.H. :: Sylvan Stalkers 2250 (Shade-Star)

Post by Furgil »

An update to this page has been made on 7/17/09

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I'll begin this post by stating that I'm quite fond of “Death Stars*,” I love the all-your-eggs-in-1-basket approach, it suites my play style very well. Shades are now one of the best all-around unit types in the game with an amazingly powerful shooting and combat skill, so naturally they drew my attention and I began theorizing about army builds to include them as a primary combat unit.

*NOTE: a “Death Star” refers to any unit that is so massive and expensive and powerful that it takes damned near the entire enemy army to defeat it, if it is possible to defeat at all. Typically this unit includes most if not all the army’s characters and a very large (more than double standard size) number of models.

I've chosen to build an army around one large block of 50 warriors who will attempt to become nearly impervious to all attacks. Of course making a unit (especially dark elves) indestructible is impossible, but I'm trying my best to minimize the dangers posed by the most common units.

I begin with a selection of 45 Shades that will be the basis for the force; they will carry Great Weapons and light armor and a champion. They are capable of unloading a deadly volley in all directions each turn and are extremely accurate even while moving and at long range and using multi-shot! One big unit means that they can be very close together to minimize the enemy's ability to draw them off and they can still fire with every shot being skirmishers.

I then add in characters to complete the formula. The biggest threat will be charges from armored warriors who can quickly destroy my shades before I have a chance to strike back, so I take a BSB with the ASF banner. This means that all characters and shades that can align to the enemy will strike first in nearly every situation. With great weapons that'll be a huge threat to any potential chargers.

Next I need psychological protection/offense. With such an expensive force the last thing I want to happen is see my warriors flee from a Terror-causer or break from combat because they lost by 1 point to a outnumbering fear-causing unit! I'd also hate to barely win by a point or two in a crucial combat and not be able to break my enemy due to lack of static CR. So my 2nd character is a master with Pearl of Blackness and Gem of Nightmares.

Third I need magic defense. 2nd Gen Slaan and Vampire hordes are a huge threat. Dark Elf sorceresses with their nearly limitless PD and Tzeentch caster hordes can all cause massive damage to light troops like these, so I add in my final two characters. A Dread Lord with 3 Null Talismans & a Master with Ring of Hotek. Together they make the Shades nearly impervious to magic as low level spells are likely to bounce off harmlessly from MR(3) and higher level spells will quite possibly miscast. In addition this will worry casters who try to cast at nearby support units or to cast spells once I close with the enemy. 3/4 of my army is immune to magic or darned close and I can even prevent them from casting spells upon their own soldiers for fear of losing their expensive wizards. It's a major win against heavy magic.

Against shooting I would really like to be able to use a rink of Darkness and if the ruling on Null Talismans goes the way I hope then I will be able to add the ring of darkness to my Lord in addition to the Null's, but for now I'll forgo the shooting defense and just hope my skirmish ability and range will prevent excessive casualties.

ASF troops will be a danger, but not to me; with the new ruling that all ASF goes in initiative order no matter charging or great weapons. With this change my characters with their ridiculously high initiative values will strike with strength 6 before the enemy and slaughter them before they can draw their weapons.

Monsters and chariots are handled well by the assassin with his rending stars and Manbane he can easily destroy chariots with s7 or slaughter dragons with stand and shoot reactions and then quick work from his 4 attacks at s6!

Ethereal and forest spirit units are immune to mundane attacks, but my use of 2-3 high strength weapons with ASF will prevent these enemies from gaining any advantage. Their charge will be met by 7 s6 attacks with re-rolls resulting in few if any survivors to attack my non-magical warriors.

50 shades with double shot are around 100 shots per volley. These fellas can annihilate whole units in one volley and if the enemy is nice enough I'll get a free round of shooting in their turn as they charge me and allow me a stand-and-shoot reaction! (I doubt the enemy will try this more than once though).

My support is no joke either. Hydras can add an element of fear to the army as they are tough to deal with requiring dedication to kill that would normally be focused on the Shade-star. Harpies have what it takes to remove those really annoying enemy artillery pieces and non-ballistic skill missile units. Dark riders can quickly divert and kill enemy support units.

The army has performed very well with approximately 70% wins. Though with only 1 tournament under my belt my tactics haven't been perfected to the point where I have won any awards.

So now that the army has a proper explanation of its uses here is the list.

Code: Select all

Sylvan Stalkers 
A Dark Elves Army By Aaron Chapman

240 Pts   “Malaruil” War Lord (Dreadlord)                                                                       
           General; Repeater Crossbow
           Soulrender; Armour of Darkness; Pearl of Infinite Bleakness; Guiding Eye

164 Pts   “Casavan” Herald of the Forest (Master)                                                           
           Great Weapon; Repeater Crossbow; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
           Battle Standard; Banner of Hag Graef

149 Pts   “Firyr” Bringer of Darkness (Master)                                                         
           Great Weapon; Repeater Crossbow; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
           Null Talismans (x3)

150 Pts   “Rahlian” Beast Master (Master)                                                                         
           Repeater Crossbow; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
           Whip of Agony; Ring of Hotek

151 Pts   “Karail” Dragon Stalker (Dark Elf Assassin)                                             
           2nd Hand Weapon; Manbane; Rending Stars

738 Pts   40 Sylvan Knights (Shades)                                                                         
           “Ferarahd” Sylvan Seneschal (Bloodshade)
           Great Weapon; Repeater Crossbow
           
117 Pts   5 Horned Ones Riders (Dark Riders)                                                           
           Spear; Repeater Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician
           
117 Pts   5 Horned Ones Riders (Dark Riders)                                                           
           Spear; Repeater Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician
           
117 Pts   5 Horned Ones Riders (Dark Riders)                                                           
           Spear; Repeater Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician
           
 66 Pts   6 Birds of Paradise (Harpies)                                                                         

 66 Pts   6 Birds of Paradise (Harpies)                                                                         

175 Pts   Salamander Pack (War Hydra)                                                                     
           2 Beastmasters; Beastmaster's Scourge

Casting Pool: 2 || Dispel Pool: 2 || Models in Army: 75 || Total Army Cost: 2250
Hero: 31% || Core: 21% || Special: 39% || Rare: 7% || Magic Items: 12%


This most recent list is lacking in missile defense as it only has long range, cover and skirmish negative modifiers available. I've had to give up the option for Ring of Darkness. But against the vast majority of armies this is not an issue as I'm usually able to kill enemy missile units with a single volly or take them out will support troops.

Now the biggest worry I have is of the template weaponry, these weapons be they guess range or breath can hit several of my warriors at once no matter my missile defense and I'd expect to suffer heavy losses. Of course I can easily deploy in a max spread to limit the warriors killed by these, but this also limits my range and angle of fire and charge due to spreading too far. This will be a constant battle for me, but hopefully I'll be able to perform the right maneuvers and create the right formations as the need arises.

I'm also concerned, but not fearful of magic-spam or indirect magic. I won't be shutting down Vampire magic, but i should be able to destroy an entire unit per turn allowing me to gain a decent advantage early game in reducing the enemy's overall strength. Area of Effect spells will totally slaughter me and I'm without any defense for these. Howler Wind has ruined one of my games as it protected the entire enemy army and prevented a stand and shoot reaction agaist a large number of charging units that would normally be destroyed with my shooting. I've pretty much accepted that without a complete revision these types of spells require a change in my typical game strategy and will force me to hang back much longer until the magic fails and I've got an opening.

I'm also in trouble if playing an anvil-dwarf army where I have limited options for protecting myself from their runic-warfare. I'll likely need to try my best to hit the anvil early with light troops and hope to hold it still for a full turn until my shades can close with the enemy for a deadly volley/combat.

As for play style I have two obvious options...

#1: I can move slowly forward shooting to the best of my ability destroying expensive troops at range then moving in turn 5 or 6 for the final kill as the enemy gets desperate to gain some points.

or

#2: I could surge forward forgoing shooting in an attempt to close with the enemy by turn 2 or 3 and then annihilate them in close combat spending the remaining turns cleaning up the surrounding enemy units with either combat or shooting.

Both ways work well and so far shooting them and forcing them to charge me works the best as it gives me the largest number of rounds of shooting and combat, playing into my strengths! I mean if every time you were charged by the enemy it essentially meant you got a free round of shooting for the whole army (S-&-S) and a free charge on them (due to ASF) wouldn't you think their charges were something wonderful!? In a moment of weakness and desperation the enemy might give up a potential draw in hopes that a hasty charge could win the game, which would never happen without divine intervention of the dice gods.

However most battles require a combination of play styles or a threat to do one or the other and then change when the enemy reacts to my style. Starting with turn 1-2 shooting and making minimal moves gets them frustrated. they will either hide or rush forward or do a little of both in order to prevent the worst of my shooting from hurting their best units. this means that I'll usually have to decide if turns 3-4 are going to be combat or shooting. If they send small pieces of their army towards me I'll go for combat as it is very decisive. but if several units rush forwards I'll just back up and give a few more vollies from my crossbows. The end game is very important as I must make sure that I don't get drug into unwinnable combats with unbreakable or uber-fighters. If these guys move towards me I'll slink back into the woods and try to weaken them with missile fire. It's a deadly cat-&-mouse game that must be played and i must make sure I've got options for moving into combat with, shooting and avoiding the enemy. If I don't have multiple options a good opponent will box me in and take me down with multiple charges from strong units.

This has been my first Dark Elf Army and it's quite fun, but very difficult to use effectively when faced with experienced opponents. I'm fallen flat onmy face a few times and have completely crushed my opponents a few times. So I'm slowly learnignthe details of the army and avoiding the traps. My first GT was Jan-2009 and I'll be adding to my tactical knowlege until the beginning of 2010 when I'll bring these babies back out for some GT destruction. Hopefully they'll be perfected by then and I'll bring news of glorious victories!
Last edited by Furgil on Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:20 am, edited 7 times in total.
- Aaron Chapman
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Post by Bounce »

I like this list a lot. It seems very Dark Elfish while still being very fragile it hits like steam train and your opponent will have difficulty in attacking it with anything as it appears you have covered all the bases. Of course if something does go wrong than it is game over. I wouldn't suggest taking this in a friendly match though as it is scary.
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Post by Furgil »

This army is built with tournament quality opponents in mind. I'll be facing Vampires and Daemons galore as well as those super-tough Dwarfs and soon Chaos Warriors.

Of course after so many years of playing I have many, many armies and friendly games while rarely simply for fun (usually for tournament practice) do sometimes see my softer forces fielded so as not to overwhelmmy less competative buddies.

And, YES, as you stated the army will crumble if just one of the characters is brought down at the wrong time in the battle. I have to make sure that when & where I move, shoot & fight that I'm protecting myself from as many dangers as possible.

For instance I recently played a Vampire army that had 3 Big Terrors and lots of nearly limitless ghoul units flanked by a large spirit host unit. I had to delay the pleasure of frontal combat in order to destroy his support fell bats and shoot to pieces an entire 30 man ghoul unit! It took time and by the time combat did occure it was in a favorable setting where he could not get all his forces into contact in one turn allowing me to cut him to pieces one-by-one. had i not payed attention the late game loss of my Pearl of Blackness Master woul dhave found my troops lacking in psychology defense and perhaps would have lost me the game.

Thi sis not a cookie-cuttor force it requires careful attentionto battlefield details so as not to waste time shooting/running towards useless goals, while ignoring the actual threats!

I think it'll be unique and fun to use and my opponents will get the pleasure of choosing if my army will be a gunline or assault force depending upon their own actions. My game plan will remain the same usually (shoot 2-4 turns and fight combat for 2-4 turns). If they refuse to fight I'll shoot 6 turns as a gunline and if they engage on turn 1 then I'll be a combat army for 6 turns. It doesn't bother me, I'm good in either phase and also good at movement between shooting/combat. So my opponents can try to use their strenghts against me withou tme completely negating them due to my build, but I'll still have brough the better troops to the battle 9 times out of 10!
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Post by Drek »

I'd love to read some batreps on this. Its so unorthodox that it could be great. Then again, it could bomb. Here is a case where having to overrun could really hurt you. And if you don't break an opponent and get flank charged, that could really hurt because it would limit your number of attacks back. Sure, you go first, but ranked units could cause this problems if they get your flank and you're stuck in.

I admire the creativity and think that this is very interesting. Please keep posting updates and let us know how it goes!
Last edited by Drek on Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Yourmumrang »

Thing is, with 100 or so shots including your Manbane Rending stars, you can always just shoot instead of charging if you think you'll end up in a bad spot.

LOVE it and consider me inspired :D
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Post by Calisson »

Impressive!
Keep us informed about the results.


You ask about what can hurt your army.

Reading your thread, I was first thinking about template weapons as well. Also you seem vulnerable to heavy shooting.

Another concern would be a tar pit such as flagellants in a big column, something like 3*10 or worse 2*15. When you charge, you have against them a 5-model front, you cannot kill all of them so they will survive a couple of turns. In the meantime, you cannot shoot and you will be charged in your 10-model long flank (yes, shades get a flank once in HtH) by Empire heavy cavalry. There they may get sufficient SCR to compensate for the killed flagellants.
Worse if they go by 2*15: as skirmisher, you have to adapt your front row to theirs, so your front row is only 4 characters, so your 5th character cannot anymore use his magic objects (nor fight at all).
Possible answer: you may just need to pin down the tar pit with your DR. And, yes, shoot them down, but your missile may be curbed down with magic.

Other danger: chariots.

Last thing: hochland and hochland-like spells: Metal Lore #1 allows to target one single character at 24", who will not able to use the 3 Null Talismans as it is the character, not the unit, who is targeted.

Overall, against Empire, a combo of template weapons plus heavy magic plus tar pit flagellants plus heavily armored cavalry plus some hochland plus some 30" crossbows spread in many small detachments could be a pain.


I was thinking also that your heavy shooting is limited by:
- having only one target each turn
- shooting only with the shades that you can sqeeze in range.
So, again, having a multitude of small units would be annoying.


Thank you for the brilliant idea anyhow, you got your entry in the D.R.A.I.C.H. über unit.
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Post by Crawd »

While it may be good, I really hate that list. Lots of people were complaining about gunlines and now some people use Druchii to make a list like that.

Sorry for my comment but I don't play Warhammer 40k because it's mainly about shooting and I hate gunlines.

Good luck in your games though.
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Post by Sedro »

wood elves with a spite known as a lamentation of despairs allows him to pick out one model on the board with only a ld ship test. That could kill one of your characters so when you fights opponents with thoose abilities make sure the characters is dead
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Post by One-s »

I'm trying a similar list this weekend vs a double dragon highelf force.
I'm looking forward to finding out how the list performs.
Buying 45 shades at the other hand is rather expensive.
Using corsairs is a good alternative.
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Post by Faulkynn grom »

Furgil wrote:So far I've completed painting on 10 of the Shades (Corsair models painted in various shades of greens). I'm using converted wood elf glade riders with added crossbows and DE heads to complete the image. I'll find soem hawk models that are of appropriate size (not the giant hawks that are used by WE as mounts) and place 1-2 of them on a single 20mm base to represent a harpy.


Try warmaster great eagles. You get like 6 or so fer only $15-$20. I like this list. It's very themed and original. If you like it and it works, I say giv'r. Post some pics of this ridiculousness when you can.

Cheers

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Post by Lamekh »

hey I like your list a lot, sure templates will hurt you but I think you'll easily out-shoot most opponents.

I run a similar list, but with less shades, different item setup and 4 RBTs :twisted:
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Post by Druchii77 »

My main issue with this is that your basket is incredibly fragile and doesn't play to its own strengths. The majority of the time, the most models you will get into combat are 7 with skirmishers. I say that you chop this big 45 strong unit up into smaller units. If you still want to maintain the big skirmisher unit feel then try a unit of 20 and 3 units of 8 or some such, but I think 45 will be hard to work with.
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Post by Furgil »

druchii77 wrote:My main issue with this is that your basket is incredibly fragile and doesn't play to its own strengths. The majority of the time, the most models you will get into combat are 7 with skirmishers. I say that you chop this big 45 strong unit up into smaller units. If you still want to maintain the big skirmisher unit feel then try a unit of 20 and 3 units of 8 or some such, but I think 45 will be hard to work with.


Think about what your are saying...

What part of having 4-7 models in combat is bad when there are 5 characters and a champion all in one unit? Everythign that is touching the enemy will strike first with a great weapon at s6 (or s5 if a shades) and will have high initiative/WS... the only danerous thing is if a super tough unit manages to flank me as well and fights only shades who'll not kill every model, just most models.

The unit is a combination of several key components if I dismember the unit then the character's unit is now smaller and not capable of taking casualties while the support shades have no defense and will be significantly easier to defeat.

Withall shades in one unit I get 100 shots at a single target during my turn and 100 shots at a single target with stand and shoot and get all characters in combat immediately upon the enemy charging and I have magic and psychology defense galore.
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Post by Furgil »

Calisson wrote:Impressive!
Keep us informed about the results.


You ask about what can hurt your army.


Thank you for the comments, this is my first DE army, so I'm glad so many peopel like the concept. And I'm glad you are willing to help find my weaknesses so I can eleminate them of limit the effects. I'm going to give my reaction to your concerns and my current thoughts on ways my army could limit the damaging effects of these situations.

Calisson wrote:Reading your thread, I was first thinking about template weapons as well. Also you seem vulnerable to heavy shooting.


Indeed so far in my battles templates have been one of the most dangerous attacks that I've faced. I'm going to be very careful from now on to expand my unit to a wider frontage and narrow depth to minimize potential template kills.

Calisson wrote:Another concern would be a tar pit such as flagellants in a big column, something like 3*10 or worse 2*15. When you charge, you have against them a 5-model front, you cannot kill all of them so they will survive a couple of turns. In the meantime, you cannot shoot and you will be charged in your 10-model long flank (yes, shades get a flank once in HtH) by Empire heavy cavalry. There they may get sufficient SCR to compensate for the killed flagellants.
Worse if they go by 2*15: as skirmisher, you have to adapt your front row to theirs, so your front row is only 4 characters, so your 5th character cannot anymore use his magic objects (nor fight at all).
Possible answer: you may just need to pin down the tar pit with your DR. And, yes, shoot them down, but your missile may be curbed down with magic.


I have indeed seen opponents already attempt to perfom such attacks. They have pinned me with a "conga-line" of tough troops usually with champion in the front to minimize my killing potential and then charged in a stronger monster or character or large unit into the exposed flank. So far I have crippled most threats and used a few minor tactics to limit the effects of such charges, but a skilled player could cause major havok with my unit if they can bypass my diverters and setup these kill-zones.

Mostly I've shot to pieces any anvil before they could get into combat, this is th ebest way to stop such a tactic. Also the flankers MUST be powerful and tough or my WS 5 GW's will crush the attackers before they can cause any damage!

Calisson wrote:Other danger: chariots.


Chariots are tough and like monsters require special attention. IF the assumed Manbane + Rending Stars does stack, then toughness 5 chariots will be hit by 3 s7 stars and should auto-die! If this fails then hopefully the rest of the stand-&-shoot reaction works and causes enough wounds that the s6 characters will finish the job. Multiple chariots charging could be trouble, hopefully I'll be able to kill one before it reaches me and then the other two should die to combat after causing a few 'expendable' casualties.

Calisson wrote:Last thing: hochland and hochland-like spells: Metal Lore #1 allows to target one single character at 24", who will not able to use the 3 Null Talismans as it is the character, not the unit, who is targeted.

Overall, against Empire, a combo of template weapons plus heavy magic plus tar pit flagellants plus heavily armored cavalry plus some hochland plus some 30" crossbows spread in many small detachments could be a pain.


I have to correct a mistake in your rules here as Magic Resistance does indeed effect every model in the unit, no matter which models is targeted or which model carries the resistance. Page 95 BRB specifically states that if a character joins a unit that has Magic Resistance, he gains that resistance even if he is the only model targeted by the spell. So my characters are very protected from these types of spells.

The characters are also fairly protected from Long Rifles since their Sea Dragon Cloak and armor and shields all boost their armor save to 2+ against ranged attacks. Long rifles will hit characters and then wound them less than 25% of the time. This will give me ample time to eliminate the offending enemy unit before they can cause any serious damage. But without the Ring of Darkness I am vulnerable to sniping.

Small detachments of long range missile units are indeed a (minor) threat, I'll have to make sure their destruction is a top priority for my Dark Riders or they could cause havok within my lines.

Calisson wrote:I was thinking also that your heavy shooting is limited by:
- having only one target each turn
- shooting only with the shades that you can sqeeze in range.
So, again, having a multitude of small units would be annoying.


Yes I must fire at one unit, but each time I fire I'll have a high probability of destroying or crippling & possibly panicking the unit in question. I calculate my statistics based upon the most likely situation I'll face: Shades moving, long range, multiple shot. The results of the crossbow volleys at a toughness 3, 5+ armor save unit (very standard infantry block) are as follows. 34 hits = 17 wounds = 14 kills... or 3/4 of your standard-sized (20-=man) infantry block. The unit is now "Out of Action" & can be mopped up by light troops or if it is a priority target will be finished off in th enext shooting phase by the Shades. If it is an elite block it will likely holf only 10-18 models and could with some luck or with fewer shooting modifiers destroy the entire unit in one volley. The very same block of infantry if fired upon whiel stationary and at short range would take 67 hits and wound 33 models of which 27 will die! (with the Assassin's additional 3 Rending star shots the enemy unit will likely lose 30 total models!) An entire 30-man unit gone in one shooting phase by one enemy block!

If however the enemy uses an MSU army I'll be more than happy to take care of their monsters first and the character-bunkers second while minimizing my own casualties where possible. I won't be able to kill the core of the army, but I can take out enough points in 6 turns to win if I prioritize properly.

Calisson wrote:Thank you for the brilliant idea anyhow, you got your entry in the D.R.A.I.C.H. über unit.


I appreciate it, the DRAICH is a great idea and I'm supprised no other forum has had such a well-thought-out tactics organization system. Thanks for adding my article to it. Hopefully I'll add glorious battle reports to Druchii.net in the near future for you all to enjoy!
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Post by Layne »

Methinks there's going to be an errata on the topic of Shades, Special Choice, unit size 5-15. It's amazing they let this slip - again! But good luck to you. Skirmishers do rule the earth.
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Post by Furgil »

Crawd wrote:While it may be good, I really hate that list. Lots of people were complaining about gunlines and now some people use Druchii to make a list like that.

Sorry for my comment but I don't play Warhammer 40k because it's mainly about shooting and I hate gunlines.

Good luck in your games though.


Like I stated I'm not intending to build a gunline. I simply do not wish to have my enemy flee from my in terror and play points denial. If they want a fight, i'll give them combat; infact i prefer combat It's much more decisive. However if they want to run away I'll be more thna happy to shoot them in the back.

Besides what people hate about gunlines isn't the shooting (Wood elves have tons of shooting and are rarely concidered "Gunlines" since they are based upon movement of troops. This army is the same. My the end of turn #1 I'll have no models in my deployment zone unless they are fleeing! How many gunlines do you knwo that immediately walk towards the enemy and continue to do so every turn. The enemy can easily bring their combat troops to bear as they will not have trouble moving quicker than my MV 5 elves! I am also Immune to Psychology, so I'll never flee a charge, meanign they can be assured I'll be standing awaiting their assault.

No I think you failed to see the purpose of this army, It was built for combat first and shooting second. Don't think that just because my shooting is good means my army doesn't fight. In fact I don't even have a single war machine! there isn't a single unit that is dedicated to shooting, heck even Dark riders while bearing xbows atill carry spears and WS 4 so that they can fight in defense of the Shades.

I want you to charge me and I help you to come to this conclusion faster by lobbing 100+ bolts at you a turn until you decide that standing in the rear is a bad idea!
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Furgil
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Post by Furgil »

Arnold Layne wrote:Methinks there's going to be an errata on the topic of Shades, Special Choice, unit size 5-15. It's amazing they let this slip - again! But good luck to you. Skirmishers do rule the earth.


There will be no errata limiting the use of Shades, their cousins the Shadow Warriors of the High Elves have no such limit, they are a 5+ unit size special choice just like us!
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Furgil
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Post by Furgil »

One-S wrote:I'm trying a similar list this weekend vs a double dragon highelf force.
I'm looking forward to finding out how the list performs.
Buying 45 shades at the other hand is rather expensive.
Using corsairs is a good alternative.


I'm buying 5 boxes of Corsairs and 2 boxes of Wood Elf Glade Riders (DR conversions using remaining bits from corsair boxes) and a few small bird models. Total the army will cost me about $200 and I get about a 25% discount at my store. So I'll be into this army very cheap with nothing but plactic models! I'm liking the cost and effectiveness of the entire force. It'll be the best dollars spent to build versus win ratio!
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Silverheimdall
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Post by Silverheimdall »

those 100 shots at long range, moved and multishot will kill on average.. around 6~7 Iron Breakers or 4~5 plaguebearers.

Wheee~
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Furgil
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Post by Furgil »

SilverHeimdall wrote:those 100 shots at long range, moved and multishot will kill on average.. around 6~7 Iron Breakers or 4~5 plaguebearers.

Wheee~


Yes they will only kill 6 Iron Breakers, but I woul dnever waste a round of shooting on a unit that can march 6" and has no missile weapons or magic!

What I will shoot are the 120-180 points per unit of Thunderers or Quarellers who will be easy targets due to minimal armor saves (6+ save max against my AP rxb's). then when I've eaten up all the easy points, usually around 500 from dwarf missile blocks, I'll also have trashed a coupel war machines with harpies given a small amount of luck, so I'll be able to casually engage in close combat with said Iron Breakers. If I move up to 4-6" away from their 20-man block of IB's I'll finish off an easy block and then let them charge me.

Stand and shoot will result in 8 kills from rxb's and the Assassin will kill an additional 1-2 models removing nearly 50% of the enemy block. So now th eIB's have a 5x2 block with maybe 1 straggler in the rear. I'll then rank up against their charge with the Lord + 3 Heroes + Assassin + Champion + 1 Shade (7 models). I strike first with 7 s5 attacks and 13 s6 attacks, killing an average of 8-9 IB's.... the results speak for themselves dwarf CR = 2 (banner and 1 rank) DE CR = 11 (9 kills & BSB & outnumber) the 1-3 surviving dwarf Ironbreakers need a LD 2 test to hold their ground.

Of course this is just a normal unit without enemy characters joined to it, but the result is the same a quick victory for DE with minimal chance of the enemy even getting a single attack back.
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Post by Medas »

I would like to congradulate you for your brilliant idea, I intend to use it in the following tournament in my home city. Nevertheless, as you have already mention one have to playtested and learn how to deal against each opponent.
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Post by Crawd »

Furgil wrote:(Wood elves have tons of shooting and are rarely concidered "Gunlines" since they are based upon movement of troops.)


Wood Elves with only shooting? I rarely see this because most of the time, they prefer dryads, sword dancers and wild riders.

Furgil wrote:How many gunlines do you knwo that immediately walk towards the enemy and continue to do so every turn.


Of course there's none because none of those gunlines has a BS of 5 or has the rule "Move or Shoot", give them BS 5 and you'll see them moving.

Furgil wrote:No I think you failed to see the purpose of this army, It was built for combat first and shooting second. Don't think that just because my shooting is good means my army doesn't fight.


If I would have seen Great Weapon or 2nd hand weapon on the shade, I may have seen it but just look at the list. All I see is just plain boring shooting. You will fight several armies that you won't even need to go in combat to win the game. Yes you're immune to psychology, but even if you wasn't, you would probably just want to stand and shoot.

Furgil wrote:In fact I don't even have a single war machine!


There's several discussion about the RBT being not as good as 1 unit of 10 crossbowmen, so I don't think it's a good excuse.. sorry but I really don't think of this as a "Look my army isn't a shooty army because I don't have any RBT"...

Furgil wrote:there isn't a single unit that is dedicated to shooting, heck even Dark riders while bearing xbows atill carry spears and WS 4 so that they can fight in defense of the Shades.


I would never let my Dark Riders out without their RxB because it makes their baiting ability even better.

Furgil wrote:I want you to charge me and I help you to come to this conclusion faster by lobbing 100+ bolts at you a turn until you decide that standing in the rear is a bad idea!


so... recieving 100+ bolts as a stand and shoot aren't a gunline.. I'll toss you back a question you asked me. How many gunline do you see that can toss you 100+ bolts as a stand and shoot reaction?

Anyway, unlike most people here, I don't like your idea. Sure it's for a cheesefest tournament, so that's a good army for this, I guess. I would never play that list and if someone would like to play with me against a list like that, I would just refuse.
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Furgil
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Post by Furgil »

To reply to the gunline objections I must first say that it is obviously not your style of play,so I understand that you wouldn't like it.

As far as being a gunline I'll clarify what I feel a gunline is and see if your very broad view of one is the same as everyone else.

To me a gunline has:

1) Multiple heavy war machines capable of massed troop killing and/or monster killing.

2) Tons of infantry shooters and/or cavalry shooters designed to fire and flee.

3) Magic and character selections to augment the shooting aspects of the army.

4) A mostly stationary force that attempts to kill at long range if at all possible (usually never leaving he deployment zone or simply moving forward enough to be within firing range).

5) Combat units are support for the shooting units.

My army has:

1) No war machines at all (even if you don't think RBT's are good, they are stronger than my s3 xbows! I have to fire several hundred shots to kill most monsters).

2) I have 3 units that fire and flee to bait, they are my fast cavalry (that's what fast cav do). My Shades can't flee and don't want to, they are built for combat : upgrade to light armor & great weapons! In fact the unit can cause fear for a turn so as to help break enemy units in combat!

3) Magic & character selections to augment shooting are not to be seen. the best I can do with this list is see a couple characters with rxb's and the assassin with rending stars (for close range missile support before combat; softening the target).

4) Nothing is stationary, I move towards my enemy ASAP and have in every game prefered to charge in the late game rather than shoot.

5) Shooting in my army supports the combat troops. To many armies play points denial, they have lots of hard to reach units blocked by a few impossible to kill units (IE: treemen blocking glade guard). I however want to make sure those units can't hide by having enough shooting to either get past their defensive lines or to catch them as they flee. If the enemy wats a fight we'll be in combat turn #1 or #2. Combat allows my great weapons to do their work and I kill much more efficiently with them than with shooting.

****

Anyone who wants to weigh in please do, but I fail to see how simply having "Good shooting" is the same as a gunline.
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Yourmumrang
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Post by Yourmumrang »

Dont worry about defending it. Some people just won't like such an army.

I'll be testing your list against Slaanesh Daemons later. Will let you know how it goes :D
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Commander qupie
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Post by Commander qupie »

wtf (where) is your guiding eye ;) ? 1 turn of rerolling those 5+ dice or even those 6+ dice against a large skirmishing unit? If you are shooting a large tough unit (dwarf warrior/hammerers for example) this will be a LARGE boost for only 25 pts...

by the way, your MR isn't that great as you think it is... I would love to play against this one time and use my 8 PD of druchii to cast 2 times chillwind on the unit with 4 dice each... and then shoot you to bits ;)/ charge whitout stand and shoot. I think some really bad spells can ruin your day. I would like to see one sorseress with 1/2 scrolls but I don't know what master you should drop for it...

I like the list verry much, only think I would change is the crimson death for the guiding eye... and maybe drop some shades and rxb on the dark riders for a RBT (or the light armour...) I think that can do great jobs against units you have problems with
why do you have the light armour anyway? just because you are using the corsair models, or is there a tactical reason? I dont see it help you very much

light armour : 45 pts
2 harpies: 22 pts
great weapon for masters guiding eye: -4 pts
1 unit dark riders' crosbows: 25 pts
1 shade (or somewhere another item, maybe one rbt of heroes) 18

100+ points for a RBT
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