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2250pts - Dragonlord, No Magic 
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Grand Executioner
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:12 am
Posts: 1416
Location: Melbourne
The main inspiriation behind this list is the fact that i do want to include a dragon into my model range, and now with most battles being 2250 points, rather than 2000, a large points investment like a tooled up lord is more a viable option. Also want a bit of a change of pace from my older lists, and i think adding in a dragon does that without moving me too far away from how i like my army to play (lots of elite infantry).

Characters

Dreadlord: General, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Black Dragon, Caledor's Bane, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Seal of Ghrond - 569pts

Master: Battle Standard Bearer, Heavy Armour, Shield, The Standard of Hag Graef - 146pts

Death Hag: Two Hand Weapons, Cauldron of Blood - 200pts


Core

10 x Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen: - Light Armour, Repeater Crossbows - 100pts

10 x Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen: - Light Armour, Repeater Crossbows - 100pts

5 x Dark Riders: - Light Armour, Spear, Repeater Crossbows - 110pts

15 x Black Arc Corsairs: - Full Command, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloaks, Two Hand Weapons - 175pts


Special

15 x Har Ganeth Executioners: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons - 210pts

15 x Har Ganeth Executioners: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons - 210pts

15 x Black Guard of Naggarond: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Halberds - 230pts


Rare

2 x Reaper Bolt Thrower: - 200pts


Total Points: 2250
Casting Pool: 2
Dispell Pool: 3
Models in Army: 97




Tactics

The Battle Line

The main battle line consists of my four combat units; the Corsairs, the Executioners and the Black Guard. My BSB will join the Black Guard (as much as i'd prefer him in a unit of executioners, the Khainite rules prevent that and the Death Hags and their frenzy aren't my kind of thing for a battle line).

The Dragon Lord most certainly fits in with the battle roll, he's decked out to be in combat, so in combat he will go. I've no invested in another unit of Dark Riders for this army list because i feel having the dragon lord makes up for the lack of a second unit and he's just as capable of taking out Heavy Cavalry as he is at dispatching a warmachine crew. Chariot's are slim pickings for him, as are fast cavalry units.
I will mention that i've NEVER used a dragon lord, or a similar character in any of my games before, but i can see him adding to the army. His early objectives will be to deal with flanking and harrassment units before hitting the main battle with support of my ranked units.

The Cauldron, of course, is part of the main battle line and will advance behind it at a safe distance.

The Fire Base and Flanks

The Crossbowmen and RBT's form a fairly solid firebase for the army, which i've found is something that my lists have always needed. WIth my emphasis on elite infantry units, and no magic, i've had people abuse the fact that it takes a little while to get across the board. A Strong fire base changes this because it causes punnishment either way. Although in recent days with more armies being alot more agressive the fire base is just as capable of holding a flank from harrassment units, and is more often thier task.

One of the Crossbowmen units will remain close to the Cauldron however in order to keep it supported, and likewise for the one with the RBT's. These units make up a fairly decent part of my points arrangement, but they're essential, and the ammount of times they've dealt with Fast Cavalry and pesky units looking to march block my army has made them a well earned addition to the army.

Dark Riders are on war machine duty and misdirection. Although it would be nice to add a second unit, i can't justify dropping anything else from the list in order to accomadate such a change, so the one unit willahve to do.

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Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:50 am
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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In a no-magic army, I think the Ring of Hotek is a must-take item. Harpies and/or a Master on a Pegasus wouold also be good to have so that you can hunt war machines.

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Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:33 am
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Grand Executioner
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:12 am
Posts: 1416
Location: Melbourne
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Characters

Dreadlord: General, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Black Dragon, Caledor's Bane, Armour of Eternal Servitude, Seal of Ghrond - 569pts

Master: Battle Standard Bearer, Heavy Armour, Shield, Ring of Hotek, Sword of Might - 151pts

Death Hag: Two Hand Weapons, Cauldron of Blood - 200pts


Core

16 x Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen: - Light Armour, Repeater Crossbows - 160pts


5 x Dark Riders: - Light Armour, Spear, Repeater Crossbows - 110pts

15 x Black Arc Corsairs: - Full Command, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloaks, Two Hand Weapons - 175pts


Special

15 x Har Ganeth Executioners: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons - 210pts

15 x Har Ganeth Executioners: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons - 210pts

15 x Black Guard of Naggarond: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Halberds, The Standard of Hag Graef - 265pts


Rare

2 x Reaper Bolt Thrower: - 200pts


Total Points: 2250
Casting Pool: 2
Dispell Pool: 3
Models in Army: 93



Not to sure about the ring of Hotek and wether or not it's actually worth it's points. Can't take any other Characters, with those three and the dragon i'm at the limit right now, i'd otherwise have included another master on foot with a null talisman or something of the like on him.

To make room for the points i've had to merge the crossbowmen unit, which will still work. It just means i'll deploy my fire base on a flank in order to stop units getting around my line and having a go at my cauldron from behind, and my dragon lord should be more than capable of dealing with anything trying to sneak its way up the opposing flank.

As for the null Talisman, i'll wait for the FAQ, if they word it's entry so that it can be taken with other talismans, it's two birds with one stone on that. But otherwise that should give my main battle line a little bit more of a reason not to be cast at.

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Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:59 am
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Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
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I can't see the function of the bsb here, the ring of hotek could be taken by a unit champion, then you realise you are paying an extortionate amount for +1 combat res in a unit that rarely loses a fight anyway. The dreadlord also needs PoK, which is far better than AoES. Ditch the seal of ghrond, you wont be able to have it with the pendant, plus it is one of our worst items. As time goes by you might reconsider caledor's bane, it is quite a situational item.

The rbxmen are better off in units of 10 with shields and possibly a musician. Add a musician to the dark riders.

Your special choices are very messy imo. It is rarely worth paying the fortune you have to for out for static res in a fragile elf army. This means executioners in no more than 2x6 formation, and the blackguard in 2x6 or 3x6.

edit: as for the ring of hotek being worth its points, even when my opponents luck out and dont miscast the psychological effect of it is immense. It is one of our best items, yah its worth its points :p


Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:04 pm
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Grand Executioner
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I'd have to disagree with you Burizan.

For one the BSB adds a further order to the entire battle line in the ability to re-roll break tests, and in my standard army, my general is on foot and further drives this point home, he's not just there for the combat resolution.

Everyone takes the PoK, and although i've thought of taking it, i cannot justify it. The AoES gives me a strong armour save and regeneration for the same cost, yet it's just as effective against low strength attacks as it is against high. The Seal of Ghrond has always come with, even before the new book came out and it is very much needed and MUCH cheeper then shelling out for a sorcoress or the like for a similar effect.
Caledor's Bane gives me a high strength attack on the charge, when you're a flying character on a Terror causing dragon mount that spits noxious fumes that cause LD reductions to people who want to charge you, you're going to be the one charging, it's not situational, on a dragon, he'll be using it. Not to mention it's advantages against Lizardmen and and other monsterous creatures that cross my path are now fair game.


I'd have much preferred to keep the Rxb men in units of 10, the shields are a pointless point sink in my opinion, as they veyr rarely meet combat for starters, and shooting is even less likely with what else is on offer in the list. Musician for the Dark Riders is one of those things that I would add, but they're somewhat expendable, and their LD is good enough as it is not to mention my Dragon Lord may very well be close at hand anyway.

As for the special choices, i must completely object. With the Fragility of elves you need static combat res in order to make up ground for any wounds you're going to take. I would actually be more inclined to fill them out further, rather than lose numbers or arrange them differently. Once again, experience from using an infantry heavy army, and mainly fighting VC, the solid units are much more reliable and with a few on the board, putting them wide can make the movement phase more cluttered than it has to be. People have objected on many occasions to this, but it works for me, so i see veyr little need to change it.

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Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:48 am
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Slave (off the Altar)
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I know you said you didn't like the idea of a frenzied Death Hag BSB but:

You can get rid of the Master and add the DH BSB w/ Banner of HG, manbane and rune of khaine by dropping the Execs by 2 models each and run them 7 wide. You can manage frenzy and you just made your Execs the best combat unit on the table. Add stubborn and +1A from the COB and ouch!

I agree that the Ring of Hotek is critical to your list- and fits nicely on the BG champ.

Also, I have learned the hard way that missing the little things like musicians and possibly shields for the RXB will come back to haunt you.

I used a dragon lord a lot in 6th edition. It sounds like you have the right idea. Don't get too arrogant with him and you will be fine. Think breath weapon rather than charges. Use your terror. Force the opponent to fear the dragon charge and redeploy so you get better angles from your agressive combat blocks. Then mop up the leftovers.


Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:55 am
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Dragon Lord
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Remember though that AoES is *useless* against the most common lord killers - killing blow
Also dwarf war machines will have field day if you don't take a ward save.

Now as a long time dragonlord player (I don't remember last time I *didn't* field a dragon in 2k+ points games, honest) I have one important advice.
Never forget that you are large target with 20" movement rate.
More than once the dragon won me a battle because the enemy only bothered about securing the closest endangered units and forgot about those just within dragon's reach.
Make a favourable 18" charge over other enemy units instead of 5" charge into front of some block.

As for Caledor's Bane, I can't justify it over Deathpiercer
Caledor's bane gives you one more strength... most of the time there is no difference in wounding roll (T5 is reserved to selected lords and monsters after all). With AS the difference is also minimal unless the target has 1+ AS to begin with. Again not so many.
And secondary ability is totally useless. No Scaly Skin Armour save? ok... great... with S6 on charge (deathpiercer) you reduce even dragon skin to 6+
And Killing Blow is incomparable when facing enemy toughies.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:13 am
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Grand Executioner
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Location: Melbourne
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The executioners in a wide formation never really did it for me. As i said, my main list usually has the general on foot, so with the points saved i tend to have a rather solid battle line. The few times i have used the wider formations i've seen no advantages to the set up, and with a few units all deploying wider, it makes the movement phase all that more complicated with the limitted room i allready have from a ratehr full line up.
I much prefer the units in a simple, five wide unit and then combination charge them into units. It is something that works with how i use my army, and what i'm used to.


As for the Rxb not taking shields, i originally thought it was somethign that would haunt my. My main list takes three units of ten strong each, but i have yet to see the draw back. They never get targetted by shooting, due to the wide arragne of better targets on the board, and as for the fighting side of things, they're somewhat expendable to me and most things that pose a threat to them, tend to get thier...fullest attention.

The Ring of Hotek is certainly a much more warming idea to me, the fact that it's area of effect matches that of the CoB and the BSB is another nice tie in.
As for the BSB takign it rather than the BG champion i see little point. If i can unload the Banner to the Black Guard it's better for me, due to the fact that the standard bearer of the unit can't be drawn out in a challenge and the unit will remain with the effect.

The Dark Rider's don't make up an overly crucial part of my battle plan, they're a harrassment unit, I don't rely on them, but they have an added advantage.


As for you advice on the dragon lord, extremely helpful. I've never fielded one so i think i'd most likely be over cautious with him rather than reckless. It's not a familar feeling having a general as tooled up as he is, although I'm tempted to test his limits.
Using the prospect of having a dragon charge, without actually delivering is a fantastic idea though, and one i didn't really think of, and with that flying move charge range and the ability to see over units, might add for some very nice suprise charges into flanks that people don't think are exposed.


EDIT: (posted at the same time as Dalamar so only just read your post)

Caledor's Bane just lost a fair bit of credibility in my eyes. I guess it's only advantageous when the character is mounted on foot, where lance's aren't an option.
And i hadn't even thought of the killing blow part of things and the fact that regeneration wont help out with that. Although this shouldn't be too much of a problem it's made me look back at the list again. I'll post a new one very soon.


Thankyou everyone for the comments, they've all been extremely helpful.

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Last edited by Hali on Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:49 am, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:17 am
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Dragon Lord
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Indeed, play with your prey, don't charge when they expect you to, you don't have to. Create threatening situations, make him wary of charging your units and getting stuck, because that would mean inevitable dragon charge in the rear on your turn, and so on.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:20 am
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Grand Executioner
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:12 am
Posts: 1416
Location: Melbourne
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Characters

Dreadlord: General, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Black Dragon, Deathpeircer, Black Amulet - 570pts

Master: Battle Standard Bearer, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Seal of Ghrond, Sword of Might - 158pts

Death Hag: Two Hand Weapons, Cauldron of Blood - 200pts


Core

12 x Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen: - Light Armour, Repeater Crossbows - 120pts

5 x Dark Riders: - Light Armour, Spear, Repeater Crossbows, Musician - 117pts

15 x Black Arc Corsairs: - Full Command, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloaks, Two Hand Weapons - 175pts


Special

15 x Har Ganeth Executioners: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons - 210pts

15 x Har Ganeth Executioners: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons - 210pts

15 x Black Guard of Naggarond: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Halberds, The Standard of Hag Graef, Ring of Hotek (Tower Master) - 290pts


Rare

2 x Reaper Bolt Thrower: - 200pts


Total Points: 2250
Casting Pool: 2
Dispell Pool: 3
Models in Army: 89



Okay, the Lord has been completely redecked. I know the Black Amulet may come under a bit of fire, but i wouldn't mind seeing how it goes in the game, it certainly makes him more deadly, but as for whether or not it's worth it's points will have to be seen. Deathpeircer does fit quite nicely in that price point though.

Alternatively i can give the lord the Armour of Eternal Servitude and the Pendant of Khaeleth which will make him a hard nut to crack and is a safer option, but it just feels too generic. At the very least, it's an option i can always go back to should the Black Amulet fail to deliver.

- Ring of Hotek is on the Tower Master of the BG unit now and the BSB carries the Seal of Ghrond.

- Musician added to Dark Riders (people are happy)

- Crossbowmen now run 12 strong.

And a question, is there anything stopping me taking a great weapon on my BSB (ruleswise)?

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Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:43 am
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Dragon Lord
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Black Amulet isn't bad, it's a little pricy though now that it doesn't overcome ward saves of the enemy but it can be a nice surprise.

Now that I took a look at the rest of the army... I must say that it lacks what the druchii are best at. speed.
You only have one unit of dark riders, no harpies, and no shades. When facing a gunline you will be shot down to pieces with your fast elements dying fast as there isn't many of them, and then your army of slow pokes dying as it slowly moves forward.
You could swap both crossbows and corsairs for dark riders, they don't really seem to fit the khainite theme of the army anyway.
the spare points should allow you to buy a unit of harpies and you'd already have a force to attempt at ruling the movement phase.
Dark Elves are best at it, and movement phase wins the games.

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7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:50 am
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Grand Executioner
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Quote:
You could swap both crossbows and corsairs for dark riders, they don't really seem to fit the khainite theme of the army anyway.


I've thought about this, but it would leave my Reapers complerely exposed. Although, if i where to do that i could swap the reapers out for a war Hydra, which would certainly put forward the idea of the close combat nature of the army, and it does give me another terror causer.

Sort of at a loss at this point though. I don't want to give up a main battle unit for it, and my infantry base has never been too much of an issue in the past, sure i suffer wounds from shooting but my units tend to be solid enough to weather the storm. The thought of putting a Hydra and removing any static part of my army list is fairly apealing though, so i might ahve another fiddle. I guess i do want a change from my old list, but still want to hang onto parts of it's dynamic.

Let me see what i can do.

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Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:59 am
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Grand Executioner
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:12 am
Posts: 1416
Location: Melbourne
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Characters

Dreadlord: General, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Black Dragon, Deathpeircer, Pendant of Khaeleth, Armour of Eternal Servitude - 564pts

Master: Battle Standard Bearer, Great Weapon, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Seal of Ghrond - 158pts

Death Hag: Two Hand Weapons, Cauldron of Blood - 200pts


Core

5 x Dark Riders: - Light Armour, Spear, Repeater Crossbows, Shield, Musician - 122pts

5 x Dark Riders: - Light Armour, Spear, Repeater Crossbows, Shield, Musician - 122pts

5 x Dark Riders: - Light Armour, Spear, Repeater Crossbows, Shield, Musician - 122pts

8 x Harpies: - 88pts


Special

15 x Har Ganeth Executioners: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons - 210pts

15 x Har Ganeth Executioners: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons - 210pts

15 x Black Guard of Naggarond: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Halberds, The Standard of Hag Graef, Ring of Hotek (Tower Master) - 290pts


Rare

War Hydra: - 175pts


Total Points: 2250
Casting Pool: 2
Dispell Pool: 3
Models in Army: 75



This list removes any static part of the army and gives me a strong mobile element. If i drop the shields off the Dark Rider units and the Harpies i can include a unit of shades with great weapons as an alternative, and although these are models I have, they've lost thier use as march blockers since 7th ed and thier own inability to march when within blocking range.
Harpies would be a new addition to the army, but at the very least they offer a screening unit for my main battle line, which is a major plus, and seeing as they're no longer take up valuable special slots, it was kind of a no brainer to make the move to them.

The Reapers wheren't going to fit as well within the list, so i'll have to get myself a War Hydra aswell. This gives me, most obviously, a second terror causer and should make a nice back up unit and i think it would honorably replace the corsairs while fitting in with the list.

The lord has been given the PoK and AoES, which makes him a very tought nut to crack while on the charge, he and his friendly little mount dish out nine S6 attacks, four of which have killing blow, with re-rolls to hit. And should anything be left after that, they have to either try thier luck at a T6 3+ armour save terror causer or 3+ armour save, variable ward save and regenerating Lord. It's something i never had experience with, an actual power built Dark Elf character.


I'm quite happy with this list now, i have that tingle that i had when I first started the game. Gives me a few more models to paint, and i certainly look forward to converting that Dragon Lord, now that i have a solid competitive list to field him in.

If you have any further suggestions to how the list could become better, please post them. And i wanted to thank everyone so far for thier comments and advice, it is ALL appreciated and extremely helpful.

Hali

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Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:01 am
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Dragon Lord
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you mentioned solid battle line. T3 5+ AS is anything but solid ;)
that's why i prefer flexible battle line or the "invisible" armies.
If you're not built solid, don't try to be.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:05 am
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Dark riders, with shields?
If I was to entertain the notion of something like that I wouldn't spend the points to give them crossbows, being fast cavalry is part of the reason they are worth that amount of points and makes you much more flexible.

While I agree PoK and AoES is solid, it would have been nice to see somebody try out the black amulet instead of forcing your poor dragon to lug the massive concrete bunker that is your dreadlord 20" a turn.

As for the earlier point I don't pay the 100pts for the dispel dice a sorceress generates, but her ability to carry 2 dispel scrolls.

Other than maybe trimming the harpies down to unit size of 5 I don't think there is anything else valid I could suggest that you would act upon.


Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:17 pm
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Grand Executioner
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Quote:
Dark riders, with shields?


At first i didn't realise what you meant by this, and then the clause about "taking shields" and more so what it does to the unit of Dark Riders that takes them. This was a claus that escaped my attention, and it was a VERY valid point indeed, the shields are dropped and i'll take two units of 5 harpies each in thier stead.

The Black Amulet is an easy thing to change and i will certainly aim to play with it and see how it goes, although sadly, i must admit that i can't see it being used over the safer combination for tournaments. There's something very comforting about giving that toughness 3, shy short of 600pts model enough saves to make him live through a round with Archaon.

My reasoning for the dispell caddies being ill spent points was always that "with those 150pts, i could by another unit of Dark Riders, or Corsairs, or Executioners, or Shades, or simply fill out my other units in order to whether extra magic damage etc. Obiously not all magic is offensive, and sometimes the spells that need to be stopped aren't the ones that take wounds from a unit, but i do tend to find that three dispell dice gets me through if used wisely.



Also I must apologise, because re-reading my earlier post i can see i was rather abrupt with my comments regarding your earlier post, and i will admit it was not my intention to be this way. Probably a bit edg at the time.

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Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:01 pm
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Grand Executioner
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Characters

Dreadlord: General, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Black Dragon, Deathpeircer, Pendant of Khaeleth, Armour of Eternal Servitude - 564pts

Master: Battle Standard Bearer, Great Weapon, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Seal of Ghrond - 158pts

Death Hag: Two Hand Weapons, Cauldron of Blood - 200pts


Core

5 x Dark Riders: - Light Armour, Spear, Repeater Crossbows, Musician - 117pts

5 x Dark Riders: - Light Armour, Spear, Repeater Crossbows, Musician - 117pts

5 x Dark Riders: - Light Armour, Spear, Repeater Crossbows - 110pts

5 x Harpies: - 55pts

5 x Harpies: - 55pts


Special

15 x Har Ganeth Executioners: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons - 210pts

15 x Har Ganeth Executioners: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons - 210pts

15 x Black Guard of Naggarond: - Full Command, Heavy Armour, Halberds, The Standard of Hag Graef, Ring of Hotek (Tower Master) - 290pts


Rare

War Hydra: - 175pts


Total Points: 2250
Casting Pool: 2
Dispell Pool: 3
Models in Army: 79

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Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:43 pm
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Somewhat offtopic perhaps but something i've been wondering about, after the charge does the dreadlord still counts as having magical attacks off the lance or does he change to mundane attacks with his Hand Weapon in subsequent turns?

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Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:05 pm
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how about giving the ring of hotek to the bsb (better defended) and giving your towermaster a crimson death? then your unit has 3 str 6 magic attacks extra instead of 3 str 4 attacks...


Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:07 pm
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Beastmaster

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No worries man. Except for unit sizes (which we will just disagree on) the only thing I see is regarding the bsb - can he carry a great weapon? I have been told dozens of times by the staff in my local games workshop that the bsb can't use any two handed weapon. If I am wrong here, then why the shield? It won't be any use in combat and the unit he is with will protect him from shooting. If he is somehow alone the extra save won't protect him from bolt throwers etc.


Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:58 pm
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Grand Executioner
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Quote:
Somewhat offtopic perhaps but something i've been wondering about, after the charge does the dreadlord still counts as having magical attacks off the lance or does he change to mundane attacks with his Hand Weapon in subsequent turns?


The lord uses the magical weapon in ALL subsequent turns of combat. As the rules go, the lance only gives a bonus on to strength on the first round, and it's imagined that they drop it and draw a sword, but in the raw interpretation of the rules, they continue to wield it, they simply no longer have the charge bonus. So the lord will have Killing Blow in subsequent rounds of combat, but not +2 Str.

Quote:
how about giving the ring of hotek to the bsb (better defended) and giving your towermaster a crimson death? then your unit has 3 str 6 magic attacks extra instead of 3 str 4 attacks...


Two reasons. One because there'd be no one to carry the Seal of Ghrond within the list, and two, because i've got two other entire units dedicated to dishing out S6 attacks, so i can't really justify the points expenditure on a list that has plenty of hitting power allready.

Quote:
The only thing I see is regarding the bsb - can he carry a great weapon? I have been told dozens of times by the staff in my local games workshop that the bsb can't use any two handed weapon. If I am wrong here, then why the shield? It won't be any use in combat and the unit he is with will protect him from shooting. If he is somehow alone the extra save won't protect him from bolt throwers etc.


Now this was a question I did ask. I don't think the BSB is limitted to what equipment they can take anymore, shields are now fair game and i don't see anything ruleswise holding me back from doing it, although to be honest, i've been seperated from my BRB and only due to get it back tomorrow.

The BSB will NEVER be alone, learnt that lesson once, not going to learn it again. The Shield does give him an option though, and variety is key. If i feel he's in dangerous fight, i'll relenquish the great weapon in favour of trying to keep him alive, yet he still has the option of being able to cleave thruogh heavily armoured opponents.

As for a justification of having a Great Weapon and a banner, he can stab the thing into the ground before he fights, or as other people have said, he may have it mounted on his back. That's certainly how i'd justify it.

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Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:44 pm
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I like it. In the latest iteration your list has become somewhat more generic DE which I see some problems with.

Before you had a no magic primarilly infantry list with a dragon and a bit of shooting and minimal harriers. I think that was a good concept because the dragon makes the harriers less important, having lots of blocks helps mitigate the fragility of the units, and the shooting discourages your opponent from castling at the other end of the board and shooting or magicking you to death on your long slow march.

Now you have no magic AND negligable shooting and less blocks. I'm a huge fan of harpies and DR (I think DR is second best unit in the army next to hydra) but in this case I think they are out of place. Against many opponents (deamons, VC, dwarves) you will have a rough time and be relying on your drgon for the win. I think you should ditch one unit of harpies and one DR and get back your corsairs. That gives you more infantry options.

Alternatively, keep the DR, drop both harpies and get a unit of shades with GW. They can perform multiple roles. Sometimes scouting to take out warmachines or horrors, sometimes screening your cauldron, and against cav armies they can combine missile support with counterflanking.

I like the supermobile DE builds with tons of DR and harpies but what you seem to want is an infantry army with a dragon and to me that lowers the value of the hypermobile units and increases the importance of firepower. That said you should absolutely have 2 DR units with musicians (rxbs optional) just for baiting and engagement control. They are an infantry army's best friends. Three might be even better depending on how you play, but I think 5 of these type units is too many. The dragon sucks up so many points that every other unit needs to more than pull their own weight.

DoS

PS-Don't let them talk you into dropping the Seal of Grond. You definitely need that AND ring of hotek.


Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:39 pm
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:12 am
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Duke of Swords, once again thankyou so much for your comments they're extremely appreciated.

One of the main reasons i feel better about the latest itteration of the list is that it is a bit different from my original army list, as I was looking for a little bit of a change. The main problem is that dragon does take up alot of points, and with my original army with that lord on foot, the points spared offered me a fairly substantial firebase in order to support the army.

With those points gone, it was a squeeze to get everything i needed into the army. I used to have a static section that would work of one another and support my main infantry line by drawing opponents towards me by punnishing them for staying put, and would only march block at the last moment to make sure that i was getting the charged off.
Now with the dragon lord in, if i wanted to keep my core fighting units at thier intended strength, my fire base would be somewhat lacking and unsupported, and i hate giving my RBT's up as they are slim pickings.

This was my main reason for making the change. Instead of taking a static firebase, the army needed to focus its agression a bit more by removing the static elements of the force, and with it, the need to protect them. The points then got dropped into, instead suporting my units from behind, supporting them from the front, screening units like harpies, harrasment units like the Dragon and Dark Riders and combat support like the Hyrda in order ro make up for dropping the corsairs.
The Harpies had to bought in for screening purposes alone though. With the loss of a main battle unit i truly can't afford to lose any more of the ones that remain and this gives me a similar type of excitement that my old army gives me. It has to be precise, they have to work together, and there's little room for mistakes on the list.

I must admit, it was a very hard desicion but it is one that i feel happier about, and in the turnover to the list that began to include harpies, i originally had shades in thier stead to begin with, but then decided against them because they took away my ability to screen my main units whilst my dark riders dealt with war machines etc. and i would like to see how it plays out on the field.


I completely agree with your comments on the ammount of dark riders to include, and there's no way people can talk me out of taking that good old Seal of Ghrond, that extra dispell dice has seen me through some hard times and it tends to find it's points back within the first magic phase of the game. As much as i'd like to keep a strong firebase, i just don't have the points to make it as strong as it should be, a sacrifice had to be made.

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Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:50 pm
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