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Magic Heavy? 
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Highborn
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I tried a magic heavy list again...
i said to myself: maybe 3 sorcs are not enough in 2.25K points - so i used a level 4 plus 3 level 2!

the result was ludicrous - again!
when i think about that i can't complain about dice or luck or whatever - the magic just did not cut in...

2 level 2 sorcs were enough to hold me down for 3 rounds - and after that i rolled a miscast which ended the magic phase!
after 4 rounds a game is more or less over as you know...

did you made other / better experience so far?

i am frustrated with the new magic... especially when i think of our other units which are improved a lot by hatred

best regards Sai

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Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:58 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Some players are gifted by the Dice Gods of Magic, some people aren't. That is including me :( . Magic + Me = Disaster. And yes, maybe we would better use the hatred to it's full extend by focusing more on CC.

You're not the only one at whom the magic doesn't cut in :P

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Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:14 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

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10 magic levels in a 2,250 battle really must be called all eggs in one basket. If you do happen to roll a miscast and end your magic phase you probably have way too many points not doing anything at all that turn.

I've only gone up to 6 magic levels with the new book. The dagger, staff and PoD gives me alot of PD without spending all my points and character slots on magic. And since I absolutly hate to miscast with my 6 levels I can imagine your pain at level 10.

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Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:30 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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You had far to much magic IMO; I'd go for max 6 levels in a magic heavy army.

It is also viable to either go with a single lvl 4 with the staff, or two level two's, one with tome, the other with dagger.

I think that you simply use magic in the wrong way Saithis, it's not there to anhilate everything, you can usually get more damage potential from melee/ranged units and characters.

Magic is however very versitile in it's aplication, i.e. a mage with chillwind and word of pain can fill some of the functions for many units, e.g. she can do ranged damge, nulifiy shooters (works like screening but your CC unit still get los), and like a combat charcter, she can tilt a combat in your favor.

Her power does not lie in that she does any of these things better than crossbowmen, harpies, or a master, but that she can choose what to do each turn, and, 'be at many places at once', i.e. she can affect one combat 18 to her right, and stop shooting froma unit 12 to her front.

Other spells, such as rule of burning iron (IIRC that's the snipe ;) ), can help you get rid of nast characters, so that your units can deal with them (e.g. a unit of iron breakers with a BSB is alot easier to break once you get rid of the bsb).

In sum: Casters are IMO the ultimate suport unit, they can do a variety of tasks, usually with a decent range, and be rather mobile, something that no other units can offer.

I have personally tried out the high sorc with black staff, and am very pleased with the performance so far, if the enemy does not opt for dispelling your PoD (and save dies for beeing able to dispell one crucial spell instead), you have an average of 10 dice a phase, not to shabby for a single mage.


Quote:
after 4 rounds a game is more or less over as you know...

I don't agree with this at al, it is entirly down to how you choose to make your list and play the game, i.e. if you use very big units, deploy straight across from your oponent, and then proceede to race across the board, then yea, the game will end at turn three or four.

If you on the other hand keep your exepncive units rather mobile, you can choose to barely engage your oponent for the first three turns.

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Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:14 pm
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Highborn
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hm, maybe it's not clear enough - even with 10levels of magic i didn't do much damage (or nothing at all) - so why are 6 level "better"? i will get even less spells off.
in my gaming group the people have fast armies, that why i can't play run and hide forever... normally i am the one who charges rather fast, but not when playing magic heavy of course.

probably i'll continue with "normal" style... shooting can't be dispelled - that's the support, maybe together with one or two caddies... real damages comes from close combat guys

i hoped with this new book magic heavy is an option, but i guess it's more useful for one or two medium sorcs... their rule just does not kick in - espeacially with these arcance items.
maybe the "Dice Gods of Magic" as Ehakir pointed out don't like me... but i can#t see it working... not after these games :oops:

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Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:11 pm
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The effectivness of your magic phase is also very dependant on what lores you choose, and how many dice you use to cast each spell.

e.g. in your initial scenario, the enemy had two level two's, if he have an extra DD item, he will have 5 dice, and possibly three scrolls.

If you opt to cast spells on four dice, he will only be able to reliably dispell one spell with dice, and the chance to fail a spell on four dice is very low.

He will then have to use a scroll if he wants to dispell a second spell...


I personally prefer dark magic, and in some cases Metal over the other lores, Fire is generlly shiz IMO, just loads of S4 dmg spells, it's only ever usefull when facing nurgle demons...

Death is also usefull from time to time, Doom is especially powerfull if you have decent shooting.

Shadow have some good spells, but IMO, the first spell, and the crown are far to situational, I would only use shadow on a mage if I either have a lot of chars on foot, or if I have many mages.


Also, once again, I see mages as suport units, the only units you aim to whipe with magic, are other suport units, fast cav, skirmishers etc, otherwishe the aim is to cripple enemy units, so that your army can destroy them easier.

e.g. a unit of crossbowmen and shades will become very potent if you cast dome and darkness on a unit (panic with -3 LD), a unit of spears can easily dispatch an enemy knight unit if you get of a chare with march + lurker, a unit of spears can easily hold uo an enemy elite block if you sofhten them up with souls stealer or blach horror etc.


Quote:
i hoped with this new book magic heavy is an option, but i guess it's more useful for one or two medium sorcs...

I'd concider 4-6 levels magic heavy, where 1-2 is the standard caddy.

Magic heavy is however perfectly viable IMO, the issue that I feel that you are making is that you have to many mages and to little army, e.g. the inclusion of 1-3 units of dark riders as suport for your army would always be usfull, where 10 units would be far to excessive.

Also are you hunting enemy mages enough? you should be able to get at least one mage down by turn 2-3 (depending on who goes first), IMO you should always include at least two units of harpeis for this, and preferably a unit of dark riders or two, don't be afraid of suicide charging the mages.

Quote:
in my gaming group the people have fast armies

Fast armies means cav, cav are vurnable to RBT's, if you face a lot of cav, it would be a good idea to include two RBT's, place them far of from your main army, so if he goes to take them out (you can also guard them with harpies if he has light stuff himself, if he gets within 20 of the RBT's with fast cav, the harpies kill them etc.) he can't move down on your main force quickly.

Also, do your oponents use a lot of small units or many large? If it is the later, you can get a few more Dark rider / crossbowmen /harpies units, and deploy them first, this way, you can deploy your expencive units after he have deployed the most of his army, and this way get some distance, it is also very important that you march blook him early with shades/harpies etc.

It is also very possible that our different opinions about magic comes down from armylsit composition, e.g. I used one level four with focus familiar and a level two with the dagger, vs a demon army fielding four master mages, three pink horor units, and a lot of furies, that's a total of 9 DD and a lot of mage hunting units (all his mages were riding flying chariots, so were hard to pin down), yet, my mages did an excelent job, yes, I only get one or two spells through a turn, but since it was magic, I could get it where it was needed, which won me the battle.

I belive that the best idea if you want to go into a deeper discussion about how to get magic to work would be to write down an army list, e.g. the one fielding all those mages, and the oponent that you faced, then we can discus what lores to use, where to cast the spells, and how your mages interact with the rest of your list.

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Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:53 pm
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Saithis wrote:
hm, maybe it's not clear enough - even with 10levels of magic i didn't do much damage (or nothing at all) - so why are 6 level "better"? i will get even less spells off.
in my gaming group the people have fast armies, that why i can't play run and hide forever... normally i am the one who charges rather fast, but not when playing magic heavy of course.

probably i'll continue with "normal" style... shooting can't be dispelled - that's the support, maybe together with one or two caddies... real damages comes from close combat guys

i hoped with this new book magic heavy is an option, but i guess it's more useful for one or two medium sorcs... their rule just does not kick in - espeacially with these arcance items.
maybe the "Dice Gods of Magic" as Ehakir pointed out don't like me... but i can#t see it working... not after these games :oops:


I dont think your getting that 4 mages isnt strong as it sounds, your upping your chances of miscasts alot, and if your using PoD alot and casting on 2-3 PD each spell you'll very likely get a miscast, and this can end your magic phase if you get one on the first spell. Also while the killing potential looks good on paper, the spells have to go off, and if your opponent is smart they should have the usual 5 DD and 2 scrolls at least, which can easily pick off your spells unless like previously stated you cast stuff on 3-4 dice, which again ups your chance of a miscast.

Also taking so many sorcs lowers your armies combat potential quite alot, if your opponent gets in combat with your army your going to be in trouble. And you dont really have any way to deal with enemy characters. Considering the combat potential of the DE army I think you'll find a balenced approach much better. Magic heavy lists are better for VC and DoC imo not DE.


Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:23 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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ethsar46 wrote:
I dont think your getting that 4 mages isnt strong as it sounds, your upping your chances of miscasts alot, and if your using PoD alot and casting on 2-3 PD each spell you'll very likely get a miscast, and this can end your magic phase if you get one on the first spell.


I agree. Without a real way to mitigate the effects of miscasts, there is definitely a point of diminishing returns when it comes to the number of power dice in an army. Personally, a level 4 and 2 level 2 casters is the most magic I would ever take.

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Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:44 am
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:
ethsar46 wrote:
I dont think your getting that 4 mages isnt strong as it sounds, your upping your chances of miscasts alot, and if your using PoD alot and casting on 2-3 PD each spell you'll very likely get a miscast, and this can end your magic phase if you get one on the first spell.


I agree. Without a real way to mitigate the effects of miscasts, there is definitely a point of diminishing returns when it comes to the number of power dice in an army. Personally, a level 4 and 2 level 2 casters is the most magic I would ever take.


Same here. More, and youre risking too many points on a miscast or something.

DE's have many ways to augment their magic with the new book (black staff, dagger, darkstar cloak; and of course power of darkness) so it's not necessary to spend too many points on magic.


Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:27 pm
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Instead of off the bat trying to cast on 4 power dice you're way better off putting one of your level 2s in a big unit of warriors (20-25) with the Dagger + pearl of infinite bleakness... this combo has helped me so much! Try casting a spell you figure will hurt your enemy and that he'll really want to dispell first on 2 dice, even if you cast it on 2 dice, (as long as there are no 1s rolled) sacrifice 2 warriors and use 2 more dice. Very low risk of miscast and you have a spell cast on 4pd and freaking out your opponent. I constantly get my adversary to use up most of his dispell dice or a scroll on my first spell. Then I have my other sorceresses to cast whatever spells I want.

Generally this combo helps me to :

1. Get rid of all dispell scrolls by end of turn 2
2. Get rid of all dispell dice after 1-2 spells
3. Have a very low miscast risk (I've only miscast twice in 10-11 games in 7th Ed.)
4. Have a very powerful magic phase

Waerik is definitely right though, your magic is there to annoy your opponent and make your close combat phase easier. Not to destroy units on its own.

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Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:37 pm
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You can't sacrifice two warriors though, it clearly states that you can sacrifice "a model" per casting atempt.

That beeing said, the dagger is a very powerfull tool, and is definitly worth concidering, the pearl can be usfull, but with 2-3 casulties from the dagger a turn, panic is not so much of an issue.

Quote:
I constantly get my adversary to use up most of his dispell dice or a scroll on my first spell. Then I have my other sorceresses to cast whatever spells I want.

This is a good idea,the oponent does not know your battle plan, so his perception of which the most dangerous spell is each round may vary from yours, use this to your advantage, i.e. if you really wanna get bladewind of to get rid of a warmachine, cast black horor on another unit first, in an attempt to draw his dice, it is however important that the teasing spells are the second best option, since he may choose to let them through and dispell your next spell.

It is imparative that you decide what spells to cast, which are the most important, and how many dice to use for each etc, before you start casting any spells.

This can however not bee done perfectly for DE due to power of darkness, since we don't know exactly how many dice we will have access to.

I'd never cast more then one PoD before using the dice though, since you don't want to be stuck with unused PoD dice.

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Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:47 pm
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One thing to bear in mind is that using magic as your prime tactic is risky: it relies almost entirely on the dice coming up your way. Certainly you can manage the phase as well as you can but nevertheless the price of failure leaves you with little recourse.
For this reason I only ever use it as a backup to other strategies.


Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:44 am
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I'm not a big fan of using lots of magic. As others have mentioned it can be extremely dicey.

Don't get me wrong. DE's have great magic in my opinion and Power of Darkness combined with the ability to throw as many dice as they want make them very good at magic. Problem is magic itself in my opinion, not the army.

I usually pack a Ring of Hotek and maybe some Null Talismans and scrolls and just ignore the magic phase altogether. DE's can get away with this surprisingly well.


Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 am
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Highborn
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i agree - i never was really happy with much magic in my army...

but there is one important point: magic of two regular armies (let's say with 2 level 2 sorcs) cancel each other out - more or less
if you get over that level there is a certain point where your sorcs can get their spells of without much resistance. if you reach that point your magic phase should be efficient!

i guess DE have a problem here - because you have no bound spells (except of getting more dice) you can only reach that point by getting more and more magic levels, sorcs, how ever you call it
then - as everyone said - the chance of producing a miscast is very high

so i guess a heavy magic army (and i am talking about really HEAVY, not only 6 levels) with DE is not useful... i tried it - result was: don't do this again, it's a waste of points!

oh and by the way - of course i did not use 4 PD for a lower spell... thats an easy target for a dispell scroll. save some dice and cast another spell is more efficient - and reduces the chance for miscast

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Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:37 am
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Going all magic is a no no for me for the same reason for which I avoid egg baskets.

If you use all your hero choices for mages... and face dwarfs or other highly magic resistant army, you just basically wasted most of your points.

Myself I field between 4-8 levels of magic, 6 most of the time. Or no magic at all (which due to inclusion of Ring of Hotek, Druchii can do surprisingly well)

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Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:22 pm
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