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Sorceress and Pendant 
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Shade
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Ok so here goes. Bear with me. :D

There's alot of these lists where people equip their (supreme) sorceress with Pendant of Khaeleth. And they're usually mounted on pegasos. But wheter or not mounted. I don't really see the point. It's just 35 points what you could have invested in alot of better ways.

If you have bought a pegasos for her then it is obvious the mount is going to be killed outright if she is getting shot at. That would mean you don't want your sorceress to be shot at. Which leads to the fact you don't need any saves for her.

If you haven't bought any mount for her. Then she is going to be sitting in some unit. Which means your opponent can't target her out of that unit (with few exceptions ofcourse). Furthermore that would mean you would only need some saves if you end up in close combat with her. But that would be bad anyway. (=you have messed up.:?) You don't want your sorceress to be in HtH combat.

Only occasion I can imagine taking the pendant for the sorceress is if you mount her on a black dragon. But then again. I dislike the idea of dragon ridden by sorceress. But that's just me. :P

So I guess what I'm trying to say is why on earth do people "waste" their points on this combo? I'd like to hear some opinions on this subject.

Ps. Hopefully there wasn't any other thread on this one. I searched but couldn't find any.


Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:28 pm
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I generally agree.

Even under the old rulebook, I frequently ran my High Sorceress with no ward save at all, even when mounted on a Dark Pegasus. My reasoning was that with respect to shooting, a Dark Pegasus is easy to hide. It's not a large target and is very mobile, so you can use terrain and other troops to block LOS to things that might shoot at her. Also, if your high sorceress does end up in a place where she'll be shot at, the pegasus itself acts as a 3+ ward save since 2/3 hits will go against the pegasus. It may well die, but it should protect your sorceress from at least one round of shooting in the process.

With respect to HTH, I figure the pendant is a complete waste since almost anything ending up in HTH with the High Sorceress is going to break her trhough ranks, numbers, etc., and can always attack the almost equally squishy pegasus to both generate combat resolution and reduce here to 2 dice for fleeing.

Botttom line -- I agree that the Pendant belongson a character that will end up in combat, and that it is often a wasted insurance policy on a High Sorceress.

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:47 pm
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i can only see 1 use for the pendant on a mage, and that is to literally nullify an enemies greatest unit, by this i mean something like a greater daemon, or dragon (something i can challenge daemon/rider)
i have a plan for the gt with this, but have not got the points to pull it off as i have bought other stuff.
my plan was to give a supreme sorceress the pendant, the focus familiar, and the pearl of infinite bleakness, and let her take lore of shadow.
i would then move her and her unit in charge range of a bloodthirster/hydra and cast unseen lurker and charge the sorceress's unit into the bloodthirster, but i would not take a terror test.
then i would challenge the bloodthirster/dragon rider and then easily win on combat resolution due to the high ward save from the high strength attacks.

this would normally mean i win combat by 3 or 4, and if i cast word of pain on the enemy, i would normally win by 5. meaning it would be very hard to stand.
this is the only way i can see the pendant useful on a mage, apart from when riding a dark rider/pegasus/dragon on her own


Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:27 pm
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That sounds like an interesting tactic that might work. you might not even need the unseen lurker if you can trick your opponent or trap him into charging or getting charged. If you end up using that make sure you post something to let us know how it went.


Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:41 pm
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Quote:
If you have bought a pegasos for her then it is obvious the mount is going to be killed outright if she is getting shot at. That would mean you don't want your sorceress to be shot at. Which leads to the fact you don't need any saves for her.

I can't always choose whether or not to be shooten at, and vs some enemies, dwarves in particular, I don't care that much if the peggy dies after a while, because he can't charge me with anything anyway, if I don't have a wardsave though, the sorc would be dead too, which is something I can't allow.

Many enemies also have very mobile shooting, fast cav, alter with loren, HoD, reaver bow, magic, etc, it is not possible to dodge all of those things, a HoD should statisticllay not kill you without a ward, but it does happen from time to time, with the pendant however, the chances are minimal.

The reason I always field the pendant on my sorc is simply that it gives you so many options, all of a sudden, you can stand in LoS from a canon, balista etc.

The pendant is not a must, and is not always usefull, but it ads lot of protection against bad luck, and personally, I like to remove as many risk elements from my expencive units as possible.


Quote:
Furthermore that would mean you would only need some saves if you end up in close combat with her. But that would be bad anyway. (=you have messed up.) You don't want your sorceress to be in HtH combat.

It can be very very hard to keep a sorceress in an infantry / shooter unit from getting into combat, it depends a lot on your list as well as on what you are facing, I can for example easily engage any mage in an infantry unit with my DE list, due to the amount of harpies / DR's and shades in my army (3, 2, 1), the pendant may will make her last at least a round longer, and non of these fast units will stand due to the massive combat res from a ranked unit.

A ward save is however wasted on a DE sorc in a unit though IMO; since we can easily take out the enemies hunters with our own.

Quote:
i have a plan for the gt with this, but have not got the points to pull it off as i have bought other stuff.
my plan was to give a supreme sorceress the pendant, the focus familiar, and the pearl of infinite bleakness, and let her take lore of shadow.
i would then move her and her unit in charge range of a bloodthirster/hydra and cast unseen lurker and charge the sorceress's unit into the bloodthirster, but i would not take a terror test.
then i would challenge the bloodthirster/dragon rider and then easily win on combat resolution due to the high ward save from the high strength attacks.

this would normally mean i win combat by 3 or 4, and if i cast word of pain on the enemy, i would normally win by 5. meaning it would be very hard to stand.

That is a very poor tactic IMO, the only way to have a decent chance of geting unseen lurker in the first place is to take the book on the high sorc, and you have no option to get a good chance at getting a second cast of it (unless you take three other mages, which is not at al viable IMO).

Now, your oponent will presumably always focus on dispelling it, since it is the best spell in the lore (pit is better sometimes though, against slans for example :twisted: ).

Also, you can't have the pendant and the pearl on the sorc in the first place, since they are both talismans.

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:49 pm
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PoK is nice when you suffer a bad miscast penalty. That's one thing i like about it.


Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:04 pm
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The pendant does work against miscasts' S X hits, doesn't it ?
Even if you dodge all those things people hurl to your beloved sorceress, she might hurt herself.

I don't think it would be silly to allocate some protection to such a costly model. Actually, I wonder what you intend to do with the saved points ; depending on the list, it might indeed be significant. Otherwise, the thought of a completely naked general taunting her foes on her big bird quite bothers me.


Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:24 pm
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well waerik, seeing as i'm taking 3 mages to the gt, i will get a gd chance of pulling off unseen lurker, due to the sheer number of spells i have.
and from what i know, armies with bloodthirsters do not have many dispel dice, whereas with the way i plan my magic phase, even lists with 6/7/8 dispel dice, have a hard time, nevermind 3/4 dd.
plus you contradicted yourself, you said it is hard to keep a mage in a unit, but out of combat, so i'm planning on winning in combat, which the enemy will not suspect.
plus any daemons player with a bloodthirster will think he could easily kill enough to not lose combat. so they more than likely will not think it is that important to dispel it, compared to the other spells i have.


Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:27 pm
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Nozu wrote:
The pendant does work against miscasts' S X hits, doesn't it ?
Even if you dodge all those things people hurl to your beloved sorceress, she might hurt herself.


Yes, it does work against miscasts that cause a hit of Strength X. So if you want a little bit of miscast protection, that's a valid reasons to take the Pendant. It also helps protect you from the effect of left-over power dice after casting Power of Darkness. But remember that it doesn't save you from other miscast effects, such as instant death or the end of the magic phase.

Nozu wrote:
I don't think it would be silly to allocate some protection to such a costly model. Actually, I wonder what you intend to do with the saved points ; depending on the list, it might indeed be significant. Otherwise, the thought of a completely naked general taunting her foes on her big bird quite bothers me.


Remember, a High Sorceress does not need to be your general. If you have a master in the same army, you can asign him the role. And since he is more combat-oriented, he's probably a better bearer of the Pendant as well. As for what to do with the saved points from magic item allocation, Lifetaker, Black Staff, scrolls & stones all come to mind.

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:27 pm
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I would still prefer to not risk my 400 odd point model at all though rather than give her the Pendant, give her the focus familiar and just hide behind stuff. With a Pegasus this is easy to do.

Even with the Pendant you can be unlucky and roll 6's.

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:32 pm
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Quote:
I would still prefer to not risk my 400 odd point model at all though rather than give her the Pendant, give her the focus familiar and just hide behind stuff. With a Pegasus this is easy to do.

Taking the familiar over the staff does however force you to at least bring one level two as well, in order to get a functional magic phase, which is quite pricy.

Quote:
well waerik, seeing as i'm taking 3 mages to the gt, i will get a gd chance of pulling off unseen lurker, due to the sheer number of spells i have.

You certainly do, especially if you have the book on one level two, I'd definitly recomend it if you don't, it's far superior to Dark star cloak in such an army IMO; having the right spells is everything, one extra DD does not make such a huge difference (the cloak is still a great item though).


Quote:
armies with bloodthirsters do not have many dispel dice, whereas with the way i plan my magic phase, even lists with 6/7/8 dispel dice, have a hard time, nevermind 3/4 dd.

If it were up to me I'd have two master mages (tzench heralds that can choose a lore and know all spells), they simply are to good not to have, and one or two units of horors, so that's 4-5 DD, not to much, and probalby one scroll tops though, so not worse then your average army, they do however have a lot of magic resistance on the hitty stuff.

Quote:
plus you contradicted yourself, you said it is hard to keep a mage in a unit, but out of combat, so i'm planning on winning in combat, which the enemy will not suspect.

Yes I did say that it is hard to keep her from getting charged, and it certainly is not to difficult to charge enemy infantry units, there are however only two real ways to charge a thirster (now that he no longer is frenzied), a) magic or b) he lets you.

Quote:
plus any daemons player with a bloodthirster will think he could easily kill enough to not lose combat.

Depends on the unit you are in, bloodthirsters fear spearmen, he'd assume that you challange with the champ, granting him a maximum of 6 combat resolution, and an average of 5 (he obviosly specced hatred), while the spearmen has 3 ranks outnumber, banner, and possibly warbanner, they will regardless win by one on average (due to musician), and always win if they have a warbanner, this means that his thirster will stay at least one round in combat, and face the chance of beeing sidecharged, and challanged by yet another champion, he also faces the risk of loosing a wound or two on his lord, which gives you at least half WP for him.

Taking all this into concideration, he will be very dubios to placing his thirster so that you can charge him.

He may also presume that you have some form of nasty tactic up your sleve, since you won't be throwing away your high sorc.

Then on the other hand, he may also assume that you are just trying to trick him to waste dice on that lurker ;) .

Quote:
so they more than likely will not think it is that important to dispel it, compared to the other spells i have.

I don't really agree here though, lurker is the only spell that demons really fear from the lore of shadows. Steed is not threatening since you don't have a lord, (might be if you have an assasin due to manbane), the knight snipe is shiz, since thier 'knigts' don't really have much armour save anyway, cronos is as always a bad spell IMO (due to the friendly fire), pit are good against some tings, particullary if he fields plaugebeares with a herald.

You could have one level two take another lore I supose (and still get lurker on avereage), that mage would have a very limited selection though (I'd personally prefer dark lore, possibly fire if he has lots of nurgle things, I gennerally don't like fire though).

All in all, your tactic may very well work, but I belive that it is a very opertunistic tactic, and not one you should write your list to much around, also, he is very, very likley to charge your sorc with furies rather early, and will then learn of the pendant.

This tactic is however a perfect example of very good thinking IMO, since you really have conciderd very onorthadox methods of dealing with comonly faced threats.

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:31 pm
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well i am thinking of swapping 1 of my hydras for 2 bolt throwers, and will get rid of furies hopefully with my 2 units of harpies and unit of dark riders, 1 of the 3 will do.
my magic items for my mages are deadly, i have black staff with the lvl4, and the 2 lvl 2's have sacrificial dagger and tome of furion, the dagger goes into my 25 strong spearmen unit mwahahaha lol.
my other plan is, if unseen lurker doesn't work, i will then cast steed of shadows on my ss, he will think i am getting her out of the way of the bloodthirster, but instead just charge in and hold him thier for a turn, then just charge the spearmen in anyway, but hopefully they will think the steed of shadows will be just to save the ss.


Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:54 pm
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Quote:
well i am thinking of swapping 1 of my hydras for 2 bolt throwers,

The hydra is much better against demons then bolt throwers though IMO, the breath is great, and they are most easily beeten in CC.

Quote:
and will get rid of furies hopefully with my 2 units of harpies and unit of dark riders, 1 of the 3 will do.

There is no restricion on the amount of furies you can take (they don't count to minimum though), so an average demon army should include 2-5 units (they don't have shooting, cheap fast cav, or good scouts, so are very dependant on furies).

You may be able to take out their hunters with yours, but it is tricky, remember that your harpies need to stay close to the general to be effective though.

Quote:
my other plan is, if unseen lurker doesn't work, i will then cast steed of shadows on my ss, he will think i am getting her out of the way of the bloodthirster, but instead just charge in and hold him thier for a turn,

You won't hold him, you will break and die, you won't do any wounds, he will do about one, even if he does not, he will win due to outnumber, and autobreak you due to outnumber and terror.

The pendant is still a good buy on your sorc though, IMO it is always usfull to get some protection for such an expencive character.

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:03 am
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oh yeh forgot i couldn't have the pearl on her, my bad.
looks like i won't bother with that tactic, will just swap 1 of my hydras for 2 reapers, it will help against other armies aswell, apparently their was a lot of large targets at heat 1 (suprisingly) so they will help thier.
i'll just get rid of the furies with chillwinds and doombolts then, maybe even the bolt thrower shot, or even better, my hydras breath.
to be perfectly honest, i'm not really bothered by daemons in the capture scenarios, as i will magic all his fast movers, and the bloodthirster can't claim anything.
so then all i'll have to worry about is contesting his sides with my harpies/dark riders in the last turn.


Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:16 am
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Hmmm interesting topic and one I'm going to pay attention to.

For me it was always a given to give my high sorceress a ward save. Now of course you don't plan on her getting shot but like someone said you can't always stop all the ranged stuff coming at her. Another huge benefit for me is that it can help against miscast damage as well.

However, I do see the point in not taking the pendant as well. In 7th edition we have access to the Focus Familiar, a great item that lets us peek around corners and such and basically be able to cast while not in harms way. With the familiar and a pegasus there is no way we should be shot at. In this case I could see myself not using the pendant.


Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:44 am
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By saving up the points from pendant there is alot of uses you can put those points. It doesn't necessarily have to be another magic item. You can always boost up your other units or characters.


Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:42 am
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The benefit of a pendant on a high sorceress is summed up quite exhaustively in one word: versatility

With the pendant, you can afford to use your sorceress in ways you couldn't afford to use her without the pendant. With this 35-point item you push the boundary of what you can risk with her further, hence increasing the potential benefits from her.

Although I do agree that the item is not that good on a pegasus, as the fragility of the pegasus makes the pendant partly redundant.


Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:23 am
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i consider using my Serc on pegy as both heavy magic dealer/sniper and war machine hunter....i have this combo on her lifetaker/familiar/PoK......so when she charges some war machine she can still cast because of familiar.....pegy has S5 and rerolls on charge so he will probably kill normal machine crew =).......this is bit out of topic but what do you think? :D


Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:33 am
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Why not just take a Master on Peggy and save yourself some points for a much more capable model at that role though?
Even a War machine crew can kill your sorceress. Pendant or no pendant.

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:09 am
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I want her to have protection or tricky duel. I challenged Manfried with my Supreme Sorceress in a combo charge and she held 3 round of combat before dying to a double 1 (!) I managed to kill him but I doubt I would have succeed if I would have let him strike my normal units.

It's easier to trick people with this because they would never imagine that the Supreme Sorceress with the Pendant would live more than 1 round against a combat character.

I don't get why people are talking about the Supreme Sorceress when in the 6th edition, lots of people were using the Heart-Stone of Darkness on her High Sorceress which was 45 points. :roll:

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:55 am
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Quote:
It's easier to trick people with this because they would never imagine that the Supreme Sorceress with the Pendant would live more than 1 round against a combat character.

I don't see your point, she will usually live for about three turns with the pendant, so why would your oponent not expect that; if he knows you have the pendant?

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:01 pm
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Surely on finding out your Sorceress has a 5+ or better ward save on your sorceress they would then proceed to kill the pegasus/other units. If you want a combat character on pegasus that is hard to kill why not just take a Master and leave your Sorceresses to do what they do best. Cast Spells.

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:55 pm
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Bounce wrote:
Surely on finding out your Sorceress has a 5+ or better ward save on your sorceress they would then proceed to kill the pegasus/other units. If you want a combat character on pegasus that is hard to kill why not just take a Master and leave your Sorceresses to do what they do best. Cast Spells.


It depends on the situation, of course, but when you have to kill a block at all cost, sometime you have to do some sacrifice and by doing so, your High Sorceress will surely manage to survive the fight while hurting the opponent because the big bad combat character is stuck in duel with her.

But in a heavy magic list where you only have casters, you have no choice but to use this to protect your best caster.

Anyway, I charge a few times with my High Sorceress which is why I like using the Pendant and people always tries to kill her.

Like I said earlier: "I don't get why people are talking about the Supreme Sorceress when in the 6th edition, lots of people were using the Heart-Stone of Darkness on her High Sorceress which was 45 points."

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Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:01 am
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The pendant on a sorceress on a dragon is a must as the oppponent has 2 hard to kill models.

At the GT i found i could not live with out my bolters and at least 3 DE's that qualified had 2 rbts in them. The Bens Assassin was good at getting the bloodthirsters with the throwing stars.

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Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:34 am
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Crawd wrote:
Bounce wrote:
Like I said earlier: "I don't get why people are talking about the Supreme Sorceress when in the 6th edition, lots of people were using the Heart-Stone of Darkness on her High Sorceress which was 45 points."


The Heartstone of Darkness was the 4+ ward save wasn't? I never used it myself because it was a SoC item but also it seems silly to give protection to a model if you don't plan to get her in danger anyway.

If you like charging in with your Sorceress then the Pendant is a great choice. And well worth it. I prefer to hide my sorceresses so i don't use it.

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Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:47 pm
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