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Cult of Slaanesh - Special Characters 
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Creating separate topic to maintain some clearity, as there are already many things discussed simultanously in the original thread.


First some general framework:

1. To come up with balanced set of Special Characters, I think both their power level and background origin should be diversified. I believe there should be at least 4 (to allow that diversity) and max 8 SC (as we already have many regular choices).


2. Power level - comparing to other armies' SC I believe we should have:
2-3 Lords
2-4 Heroes
0-2 Champions (although I'd include at least one for the coolness factor ;) )



3. Background - CoS gives very varied background for it's units and characters, I belive it can be divided in following way (including number of each type based on prominence in army):

2+ Dark Elf characters
1-2 Anointed
1-2 Daemon characters
1 Marauder character




For these we have 3 general sources:

1. Original CoS SC:

- namely, Cult version of Morathi. Basing on her 6th CoS version and our discussion I believe she should look like this:

Morathi (DE, Lord) - 485
[as in 7th ed DE AB except the following:]
- If included, she must be the army's general
- Pact with Slaanesh - While reluctant to give her eternity to Slaanesh, she is more than willing to get her benefits by offering her cultists' souls. Thanks to this she is ItP, knows all the spell from Lore of Slaanesh list, in addition to Dark Magic and may choose her Arcane/Enchanted items from both Treasures of Naggaroth and Artefacts of Slaanesh lists.
<So while unmarked herself, she does get the benefits; point cost changed to include ItP [5 pts] and additional lore [25 pts] - normally +1 spell cost 15 pts, but as she knows one whole list already I think such price is ok for this bonus>



2. Current (7th ed) and older Slaaneshii characters with fitting fluff. Slaaneshii characters I'm aware of are:

- Sigvald (7th ed WoC) - human Champion of Slaanesh - fluff not fitting CoS IMO.
- The Masque (7th ed DoC) - unique Slaaneshii herald - fits and needs no modifications.
- Azazel, Prince of Damnation (5th ed HoC, also 6th ed .pdf on GW site) - Daemon Prince of Slaanesh; nothing connected to DE in his fluff and regular DoC army can't take him, so IMO no reason to include him.
- Dechala, the Denied One (5th ed HoC, also 6th ed .pdf on GW site) - six-handed Slaaneshii Champion, rumoured to be High Elf princess once - If we take those rumours as truth and develope on this background she might make for an interesting option to include Hero-level Anointed.


3. New ideas - so far we have:

- Morgoth (Lord, Anointed) - by MartialArtist
Quote:
Morgoth - Most Exalted Of The Anointed
Weapons and Armour: Lance, Enchanted Chaos Armour (2+ save), Shield.
Mount: Morgoth is mounted on his Serpent Of Slaanesh (what it should be called)/Daemonic Mount/Steed Of Slaanesh (boobworm thing in any case) Baskilla.
Magic: Morgoth is a Level 1 Wizard and may use Dark or Slaaneshi Magic.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Morgoth 6 8 7 5 3 3 8 6 10
Baskilla 10 5 0 4 4 3 5 2 8

Morgoth Special Rules: Eternal Hatred, Fear, Dismount, Mark Of Slaanesh, Demonic Ward Save, Slaanesh's Warrior

Baskilla Special Rules: Eternal Hatred, Fear, Scaly Skin (5+), Poisoned Attacks, Demonic, Slaanesh's Control

Special Rules:
Dismount: At the start of the Cult player's Movement phase, Morgoth may dismount from Baskilla. Morgoth is placed on foot in base to base contact with Baskilla. Both models than count as separate units, Morgoth as a character on foot and Baskilla as a monster. Both models may move as normal for that turn, including for charging. If Morgoth and Baskilla are in base to base contact during Cult player's movement phase, he may remount Baskilla and the model's remaining move is determined by Baskilla's remaining movement options, returning to the usual rider-monstrous mount rules. Morgoth may only mount/dismount Baskilla once per turn.
Slaanesh's Warrior: When Morgoth is mounted upon Baskilla, they both become Unbreakable. In addition, in any combats involving Morgoth mounted upon Baskilla count only wounds for combat resolution, banners, ranks and other bonuses being ignored. Should Morgoth and Baskilla be on the losing side of the combat, they will suffer a strength 5 hit for every point they lost the combat by, the hits being apportioned as the Cult player desires but with no more hits being able to be apportioned to Baskilla or Morgoth than their remaining wounds. Excess wounds are applied if Morgoth and/or Baskilla survive.
Slaanesh's Control: Should Morgoth die, Baskilla does not roll on the Monster Reaction chart but instead automatically passes and from then on fights with hatred in every round of combat (against any enemy) he is a part of, instead of just the first.

What do you think? Needs a points value, but I would think about 400, 250ish for boosted Anointed stats, 35 for magic level, 60 for Baskilla and 65ish for extra rules and Chaos armour. The idea behind him was that Slaanesh had specially gifted Morgoth with Baskilla for his good service, and that this gifting had created a special bond between the two so that they can fight independatly or when togethor they ignore all daunting situations and just continue fighting, though doing so can leave them in situations where they are taking hits from all sides.
In game terms they are versatile in that they can separate, and when combined can kill enough to butcher through the enemy, their (the opponents) extra bonus' being no inspiration against the sheer speed and killing power of the two.
- I've got an idea (very brief ATM) for a Marauder Warlordess - as fluff-wise our marauders are of asiatic type, would like a way to introduce my female Marauders (to be converted out of these: 1 2 3 4 5; Warlordess herself will be converted out of one of these two: I II). They are of Kvelligs tribe and have wandered far in the east - still thinking on the background story, also rules for Warlordess.


- The only CoS-specific Daemon character I can think of would be the KoS N'kari - with hatred toward HE and Eternal Hatered toward Teclis I believe and probalby some uniqe Daemonic Gifts; although I'm not sure he's 'fluffwise-available' - he was banished by Teclis and I do vaugle remember (was it III or IV ed Chaos Space Marines codex? - he appeared in a fluff-piece there) he couldn't return back to the world for sometime - so dunno if he can be present at current, post-SoC time.


- Not much in the way of other ideas so far; I believe that if we're to include champion-level SC, Devoted and Slaneshii Cold One Knights are best unit choices for that.



So much for now from me; Dechala rules and comments on Morgoth as soon as I can work them out (which means before the end of the week, at earliest tommorrow); meanwhile - anyone else wants to comment or give some new character ideas?


Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:39 am
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Well, I'll throw in a couple of c here as well.
Basically I believe that we should be focusing on Druchii special characters rather than on mortal or daemon ones. The reason behind my thinking here is that the main focus of the army really should be the Dark Elves. We are talking about the Cult of Pleasure here. An inherently Elven institution. On top of that, what are the Daemons and Mortals to the Druchii? The Mortals are basically fodder and fools that's been seduced by either Morathi or some other Dark Elf, and the Daemons are creatures that the Druchii summon up as tools to use against their enemies, or as a means of gaining new power and information. Regardless of the individual Daemon and Mortal's opinions, they are all tools in the eyes of the Druchii. Creating special characters for Daemons and Mortals simply make them more than that in my eyes, and hence I'd prefer not to.

As for which kinds of special characters I'd like to see then it would be:

An Anointed
A Supreme Sorceress
(A Sorceress)
A Shade
A Warrior
(A Cold One Knight, if we are to bring them to the table)


/Kyrel


Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:45 pm
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Supreme sorc is already filled by Morathi.

I have Anointed in progress (see above).

A Devoted champion would be really cool. Anyone feel inspired?

Kyrel I agree with you on the fact that Daemons are tools and Mortals just the muscle, so though I'm not completely against Daemon/Mortal SC, I think at most they should have 1 each.

Kyrel: In regards to this brought over from the other thread:

"A quick comment/question on the "Dismount" rule you suggest. Why this rule? As such it's not badly written or anything, but why enable Morgoth to dismount from Baskilla? What purpose do you see this special rule fulfill? As you may have gathered by now, I'm not a real fan of this particular rule, as I just find it too complex. and too pointless. Not to mention that it basically goes against the general rules for riders and mounts. Basically I'd say scrap it. "

I just thought up the idea, and yes it does go against the general trend which is why I like it, it allows the one choice to fight as separate entities if that is most advantageous (for example if there were two combats close by that both needed a little support) or combine to make them even more deadly. Still, the character is still completely in the development phase and your comments are appreciated. Will consider.

"As a side note, could you pls. try and play around with some other names, besides Morgoth. I'm sitting here and getting associations to Beastmen and the Silmarillion. Somehow the name just doesn't feel elven/druchii to me."

Your really right here. I am absolutely shocking at coming up with Druchii names, and just used the closest I could get. If you can think of anything to rechristien him a little more in character, I'm completely open to changing his name.

"And finally, what's this guy's backstory? As I'm generally opposed to the use of Special Characters in the game, the background is really the most important to me. Also, I've commonly found it easier to make up an interesting character with special rules, once I have worked out the background, since this provides both explanation and justification for the existence of a given special rule."

Still working on that, but basically performed some deed that Slaanesh deemed appropriate to grant him Baskilla (who he was somehow mystically linked with in the gifting, leading to their extra rules when fighting togethor) and some extra power. The rules are just ideas from my head, and as the background comes togethor so will the rules.

MA

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Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:00 am
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Double post, sorry.


Last edited by Weenth on Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:40 pm
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Morgoth comments

I agree on most Kyrel's comments, so:

- name change might help. Something like: Lorgoth or Mouroth would be better IMO if you want to keep close to orignal name, might of course be also something different altogether - like, I dunno... Druthiel, Suriath, Lethrai or Sarril - to give a few out of top of my head.


- As you've mentioned, MA, link with Baskilla is what makes him unique.


- Personally not the biggest fan of dismounting:

* like Kyrel, I don't like the way goes against general rules - fluff-wise many characters have mounts intelligent/faithful enough to fight on their own (dragons being a good example), yet they cannot fight separate by the rules.

* also effectively requires you to have 2 (even 3 if rider's irremovable) miniatures to field one SC; True it does happen with other characters on monsters, but in their case that's in rare cases of dead mount and living rider - here it would be regular.


- Still, I believe that dismounting option does show that unique link.
Although, if thats the main feature of this character, player should be incouraged to use it - so I'd say if you include dismounting, give no special bonus for fighting together.


- On the other hand, mayby some other rules could also show that link:

* how about: Baskilla has snake-like body, so a rider might severly reduce his moves in combat; so while serves as a mount for our champion, I battle they fight separatly - forming either a 2-person skirmish unit, or simply need to be wihin 8" (6"?12"?) of each other; might get special bouns for that - like: baskilla can use Morgoth's LOS for charging? Or anything else you feel is approtiate

* of course you can also go the 'mounted' way and find some other way of showing this link than dismounting


- current bouns for fighting together rather makes them SCR-breaker than something that 'ignores all daunting situations and just continue fighting'; stubborn or unbreakable would be IMO better for that



Some more comments on PV and stats:

- I believe any unique stats should have their reason - be if fluff, internal character balance or his place in the army

* compared to regular Anointed Morgoth has: -1 I, +1 A, +1 Ld

* as 'most exalted' anointed, he might be faster than usual (therefore +1 A, but then no reason for -1 I)

* while 'most exalted' may also give a reason for better Ld, it makes him Ld 10, which is something only Morathi has (even KoS is Ld 9) and I believe it should stay that way, especially as he would confer that Ld to his bodyguard Warriors/Knights


- PV I think are a bit off (although both ways, so don't know how this will affect final cost)

* should his stats be simply 'Anointed+1A' he'd cost 225 pts

* after having some ABs-research ;) - it looks like current pricing for magic levels is: 50 if it gives an extra dispel dice, 35 if it does not; so: 1lvl +50/ 2lvl+35/ 3lvl+50/ 4lvl+35 (on top of previous of course), making it 50 pts for Morgoth (and regular Anointed also)

* Chaos armour is included in Anointed price already

* comparing Baskilla to a Fiend (55 pts) she has:

Better:
+ 1 WS (about 5)
+ 1 Ld (unimportant, as she's likely to use Morgoth's Ld most of time, so 0-5)
+ EH (any mount would get it for free, still Fiend's not a mount, so maybe 5-10)
+ Poison (10-20)
+ 5+ AS (7-10)

Worse:
- Soporific Musk (20)
- Armour piercing (5)
- 2 Attacks (30-50)

so I believe with current stats she's about 40 pts worth; maybe make her A4 and 70-75 pts or A3 (55 pts)?
Also, I have a bit problem fluff-wise with her Scaly Skin save - only daemons to get AS curently are khornate; as daemon's material form is not a real body I believe her resilience should be included in profile rather than save (then again T5 is a bit too good for relatively cheap 10M creature)




Generally on SC
@Kyrel - I do agree that DE treat Chaos as tool, disagree that this means no other SC than DE (might have something to do with me generally likeing (balanced) SC ;) ). I do believe they should be limited, so Masque would be enough of daemons (she's available to DoC and fits CoS fluff, so the reason to include her is 'she's ok and ready'). No ready WM character on the other hand, so would need to be well tied-in with CoS background. That's what I'll try with my Marauderess, so would like to use her, still if anyone's got other idea for WM SC, go for it. :)

As for Anointed characters, we've got Morgoth and Dechala, I think these 2 is enough (as a side note, looking through RoC:StD I've found
this guy, although I don't think he will be much of use... well, his rules at least. ;)




Dechala, the Denied One
Ok, so here's CoS version of Dechala. As I feel more comfortable writing rules than background, I decided to include her original background and my ideas for development/modification of it; some help would be very welcome here with further developing and putting it into final form. :)

So, here's a picture(she's got a bit to monstrous face on the picture IMO - still better than daemonettes of that time :roll: ) and old mini (downright terrible and disproportioned IMO ;) ).

Original fluff:
Dechala is the mistress of the Tormentors, the greatest of all of Slaanesh's warbands to ever roam the Chaos Wastes. She is as cruel as she is beautiful and as pitiless as she is beguiling.

The earliest records of the ravages of Dechala reach down through the centuries. Some say that she was blessed with great age by Slaanesh, or maybe the legends that she was once a High Elf princess are true.
Dechala is mutated beyond recognition, making her a creature of Chaos more akin to a Daemon than a mortal. Her skin is smooth and milk-white. Her legs have been replaced by the lithe and sinuous body of a snake. Her multi-headed tail cracks like a whip, and drips with poison. Her multitudinous arms grasp heavy-bladed swords and her deep blue eyes glow with an inner light, promising terrible pain and pleasure to any who dare to stand before her. She has beauty that only Slaanesh may grant, but it is as unearthly and disturbing as it is irresistible. Her visage evokes loathing as much as it arouses pleasure.

Dechala seeks the ultimate self-indulgence and freedom from the shackles of law and order, but she desires this pleasure only for herself: others can suffer and die as long as her wishes are fulfilled. She is served by a host of slaves, victims of her hideous poison that erodes both the will and the body.

In battle Dechala is an enchanting sight, her snake-like body dancing to amuse her patron. And as delicate and sensuous as her movements are, they are nonetheless lethal to those who dare to oppose her, and many an opponent has been cut to pieces while entranced by her dance.


Oh, there's also:
Hates Khorne - Dechala was once wounded in battle by a Champion of Khorne. Her face still carries the scar and because of this she hates Daemons of Khorne and any creature bearing the Mark of Khorne


Not much use rule-wise, as she has EH already, but still a piece of fluff... mayby change her EH rule to allow her to-hit rolls in any round of combat against Khornate opponents?
Now my ideas on developing it:

1. So let's say she is indeed ex-High Elf princess. When was she corrupted? - before the time of sundering, like most Anointed
- later, when Cult's agents inflitrated HE society?
While latter sounds interesting (He betraying her kin to ally with DE), I'd go with the former - considering that with this level of physical corruption she'd probably been in the Wastes for very long.

2. Why 'the Denied'? I've come up with few explanations:
- denied position/power in HE society for some reason, hence turned to Slaanesh to gain it
- denied daemonhood by Slaanesh (ok, we already have that - see Valkyrie the Bloody SC in WoC ;) )
- denied mutuality (right word?) of her love - turned to Slaanesh to get it; or maybe rather get revenge?

I like the last option most, but still none of them is very original.

3. Why joined the Cult?
- simple explanation - she's an Anointed, so an elf; I like the idea that she was found in the north and convinced by Morathi herself, who used know her in the old days

4. What's so unique about her? (more of coolness-factor than background question really)
- a hero level anointed - as Slaanesh in his nature is not about combat as such I think it's good to have a character, who's an example that being extremly old and much influenced by Chaos God doesn't nessecerily mean 'powerful in open battle'
- being heavily changed physicaly she makes for interesting convertion (not to mention that anything would be better than her orignal mini :roll: )
- makes interesting character of 'paper tiger type' - fast and lots attacks, while fragile and realtively low S at that, with a 'wardancer-like' twist to her

5. Also, looking at her picture, I believe her tail on original miniature is way to small and short, which gave me an idea of putting her on cavalry base. More on that in 'Point Costs' section


Ok, so much for background, now to the rules:

Dechala, the Denied One
Takes a hero choice

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
9* 8 4 4* 3 2 9 6 8

<In 5th ed she was M8, in 6th ed .pdf M8; I decided to give her M9, as lots of Slaaneshi stuff has even more than this; also this way she'll be able to join DR without slowing them down;
BS value for fluff-purpose only, as she doesn't use it>


Equippement: Chaos Amour, 6 Swords

Special rules:
Mark of Slaanesh, Eternal Hatred*, Fear, Anointed Ward Save, Dances of Slaanesh*, Elixir of Damnation*

Eternal Hatred
hates everyone, may re-roll failed to-hit rolls in all turns of combat against HE, Khornate daemons and models with Mark of Khorne

<Coming from her 5th ed rules; but as it's rather a cosmetic change, so maybe unnessecary change of general EH rules?>

Dances
Every battle is a way for Dechala to please her master. She dances across the battlefield sensuously, her blades making eerie whistling music to accompany her movements. In comabt she may pick one of the following dances, the effect of which applies for that Close Combat phase only. You cannot choose the same dane in two consecutive turns of the same combat engagement.

- The Praise of Slaanesh - Dechala fights with dancing movements that enthral her enemies, and her wisting body becomes almost impossible to hit. All successful rolls to hit against her in Close Combat must be re-rolled.

- Dance of Destruction - Dechala swirls with frantic energy, cutting limbs and severing heads with her whistling blades. Dechala gains +1 to all her to hit rolls.

- Daggerdance - Dechala's twisting blades make a wall of steel around her that no sword master can penetrate. Dechala mey deflect up to total of 3 attacks of her opponent(s) in base to base contact. At the beginning of the Close Combat phase declare how many, and whose attacks she will parry. Each parry costs her 2 of her own attacks during the same close combat phase. Note this has no effect on special attacks like "yell and bawl" attack of the giant, only against normal attacks.


<These are her dance rules from 6th ed .pdf; exception is Daggerdance - in .pdf it's simply 5+ ward; as she already has 5+ Anointed ward save, this would be of little value; so changed it to it's 5th ed rules - balanced and interesting I think, just not sure if not too complicated?>


Elixir of Damnation
The Elixir of Damnation mutates its victim, leaving him in the grip of pain and ecstasy, unable to oppose Dechala
All of Dechala's attacks count as having the Piosoned Attacks special rule; A model that suffers an unsaved wound from her blades may not strike during that combat phase unless it can pass a Leadership test.


<In 5th ed. EoD made wounded enemies unable to attack Dechala in any way (be it h-t-h, shooting or magic), with no test, until the end of the battle (which is way overpowered for current rules). In 6th ed .pdf it was reduced to 'poison' (which in turn, while simple and balanced was IMO boring, especially considering her fluff). I tried to take a middle ground for playable rules of poison that 'erodes both mind and body'. Might also work in more powerful form:
- model wounded must test its Ld each turn if he wants to hurt her in any way>


Point Cost
1. Her stat-line is quite unique, so I tried two ways of getting to it:

- start with WE Alter Noble with additonal hand weapon; add rules and stat-modifications from there (outcome: 175 pts; does not include Dances & Elixir)

- treat difference in points between Dreadlord and Anointed as 'raw value bonus' (75 pts), apply it to Master to achieve 'standard Anointed hero', put her on dark steed (I believe lack of cavalry save with the fact that her 1 bonus 'steed' attack is at her WS and with her rules gives a +5 pts together); add rules and stat-modifications from there (outcome: 165 pts; does not include Dances & Elixir)

- as you can see, the latter is a bit cheaper, which I think is evened out by the fact that it lacks 360 degree LoS and -1 to hit modifier when shot at; so I believe both costs are right to their own and more about fluff choice

- Dance effects are not equal in value - first is 40, secon 15, third I'd put about 35, so decided for total skill value of 35

- Elixir can be of different power:
A) simply poison - 10 pts I believe
B) poison + one-turn CC protection - 15 pts (bonus effect is identical to 5 pt 'Torment Blade' Daemonic Gift)
C) poison + lasting protection - I'd give it 25 pts
D) lasting protection - 15 pts

So when on cavalry base with C effect poison she would cost a total of 225 pts.


So that's what I've come up with; what do you guys think about it? :)


Last edited by Weenth on Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:41 pm
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Nice character.

I'm a little confused as to how you got to the points cost, and also what rules you got from some old edition of this character (?) and which you added, but don't try and explain it.

I'd make elixer effect B). Simple but still a bit unique and different.

On Morgoth:
True about the stats. I wasn't sure exactly what the Anointed's stats had been placed at. -1ld and +1I sounds fine.

Morgoth doesn't have an option for Warband (I should have included this but forgot) as he and Baskilla fight exclusively with each other.

I'll revise the rules for Morgoth (still needs a name change, thanks for the suggestions I will have a look and maybe choose one) and Baskilla and post them again when I'm done.

MA

I based Baskilla's cost on the old Daemonic Mounts from HoC. With change to 7th ed pricing, I would agree that she is about 40 points.

" current bouns for fighting together rather makes them SCR-breaker than something that 'ignores all daunting situations and just continue fighting'; stubborn or unbreakable would be IMO better for that "

Did I not post it or did you miss it? When togethor they are unbreakable, but suffer impact hits if they lose combat. The combat res rule was just something a bit unique that i was playing with, can probably go.

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Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:49 pm
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MartialArtist wrote:
I'd make elixer effect B). Simple but still a bit unique and different.
I also tend to think it's the best option - while not as fluffy as longer effect, it is still fits background description of elixir better than 'pure' poison and is simple - no need to track down later in battle who's affected.

Any comments on base size? Personally am udecided about that. Cavalry-based character would be something new and interesting, still being on smaller base somehow appeals more to me. OTOH, it would need to be a 25mm base (as opposed to 20mm base of regular Anointed), as I can't see a model of her with a proper tail fitting on a smaller one.


Also waiting to read more about Morgoth. :)

I did miss that 'unbrekable' part and do think it fits - if Spawn is out of list that would be both fluffy and unique.


Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:48 pm
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Been busy lately, will get to Morgoth maybe on the weekend.

Base size depends on how "monstrous" your character is. I imagined her as nearly a "boobworm" and would have put her on 50mm square but that was just what I imagined from the pic, then have plenty of room for all those swords... You seem to have a different view though and your her creator so I'm not sure...

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Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:53 am
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MartialArtist wrote:
Base size depends on how "monstrous" your character is. I imagined her as nearly a "boobworm" and would have put her on 50mm square but that was just what I imagined from the pic, then have plenty of room for all those swords... You seem to have a different view though and your her creator so I'm not sure...


Well, she is a T3 W2 character, so not very monstrous, thats why I think puting her on anything bigger than cavalry base is unfitting. Her original miniature is on 25mm base, but as you can see on the photo, she look as if she's levitating or about to fall on such disproportionately small tail.

I see two solutions:
- put her on Cavalry base - untypical approach for unmounted character, can't decide if that's a good thing or not
- make her rising high on her (longer) tail - a solution a bit similar to GW take on dragons (to fit their long&big bodies on 50mm); Would make for an interesing model, but also one that is likely to fall over


Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:27 am
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Picture? Of her model?

The only picture I saw was the one that you linked to above and that was of a black and white drawing of her. You seem to be talking about the model, which I haven't seen....

Boobworm has only 3 Wounds and thats on 50mm base.....

Having a larger base makes her more of a target though. On modelling: you could model her with her "long" tail wrapped around beneath her to form a coiled snake-like pyramid base (sort of like the tail of this: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/754700 ... 12.jpg?v=0)

and then have her head and arms on the end of the tail rising out of the top with the swords all radiating round. That's how I imagined her anyway. Would be bottom heavy (due to tail) and unlikely to fall over.

MA

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Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:59 am
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I came up with an idea for another special character last night. So without further ado, I give you: Lorellia - The Minstrel of Despair

Her background probably still need some work, but I hope you get the picture of where I'm going with her.

Despite the fact that all Druchii descent from warriors, and despite the fact that the very society of the Druchii is based around war, strife, and conflict, not all Dark Elves are equally fascinated with mere bloodshed. The elven senses of the Druchii are as keen as their cousin’s, and for some Dark Elves, the experiences that can be had through the infliction of pain etc. just isn’t enough. In the case of Lorellia, this former warrior grew bored with the torture and backstabbing, and begun searching for new sensual experiences. Ultimately this search brought her into the arms of the Cult of Pleasure, where she discovered the joy of music, and became fascinated with its ability to affect those that heard it. Lorellia was a natural singer with a great voice, and as time went by she became nothing short of spectacular. Her small hidden concerts drew likeminded Druchii from the Cult of Pleasure from miles around, and in the end she also drew the attention of Atharti, who bestowed her favour upon her, by further improving her song, and enabling Lorellia to truly play the heart and soul of her audience.
While Lorellia is a skilled warrior in her own right, her ability to raise a person’s morale to the highest peak or plunge them into despair and break a their spirit, merely through her song, is what makes her truly dangerous, and more than one enemy has found themselves transfixed in wonder whilst Lorellia’s allies cut them to pieces.


Lorellia – The Minstrel of Despair – 140 pts.
M6
WS6
BS5
S4
T3
W2
I7
A5
Ld9


Two Hand Weapons (extra attack included in profile)
Mark of Slaanesh
Eternal Hatred, High Elves
“Soporific Musk” (6th ed. version, enemy in BtB contact halves their WS & I)
Speed of Slaanesh
Allure of Slaanesh
Voice of the Minstrel:
Lorellia has been gifted with the most beautiful singing voice in the Old World, and with her song she has the ability to touch the very hearts and souls of all that hear her. Once per round in the magic phase, she can unleash one of the below songs on a suitable unit within 12” of her. While Lorellia’s voice is divinely enchanted, the effects of her voice do not count as spells, and thus they can not be dispelled, regardless of the fact that they are used in the Magic Phase. Lorellia’s songs have no effect on non-sentient beings, (such as Skeletons and Zombies), and troops who are Immune to Psychology.

Cantata of Atharti - Target unit is so fascinated by the song that they forget all about where they are, and what they are doing. The unit can not move or use ranged weapons during their next turn. If the unit is or becomes engaged in combat, they will suffer a -1 on their To Hit rolls, due to the distracting effects of the song.
Lament of Ereth Khial – This keening lament is a hymn to the ruler of the underworld, and lowers the spirit and erodes the morale of the target unit. The victim suffers -3 Ld until the beginning of the Cult player’s next turn.
Hymn to the Cytharai – The target unit is filled with an unnatural dread, and must make an immediate Panic test or Flee.
March of Khaine – The magical song bolsters the morale of the target Druchii unit, and gives them a feeling of invincibility. The unit gains the Unbreakable special rule until the beginning of the Cult player’s next Turn.



Comments and criticism is most welcome

/Kyrel


Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:20 pm
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yer i like the idea its different and could be a fun model to make but gamewise she is too power for what your paying for her i would up the points but one question. Have you missed the armour out or doesnt she have any?.

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Caine looks around seeing bits of cultists on the ground
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:37 pm
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I'd like to suggest a character from my story about the cult. A little egotistical maybe, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=55313

(I don't wan't to reveal which character specifically just yet for reasons of spoilers)

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name: Rhyithan Uematsu
WS 4 (5)
Str 4
T 4
Dxty 2
Int 5
Equipment: Longsword, Shield, Lightarmor, Seadragon Cloak, Enchanted Draich (+1 WS).
skills: Two-Handed Weapon Fighting
10gc

awesome tattoo - priceless.


Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:35 pm
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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:34 pm
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The lack of armour is deliberate. The Soporific Musk and Allure of Slaanesh is all the protection she gets. I agree that we probably need to look at her cost. I took the Masque (90 pts.) as a starting value, and then just took at shoot from the hip, but point costs is a weakpoint for me.


Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:26 pm
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That is one cool character! I want her! And yeah, points cost needs to go up a bit, or some abilities need to be stripped off. Very unique and interesting.

I'm also not that good with points, but I'd suggest somewhere in the 170-200 range?

Great fluff to go with it. Really love the character all round. Any ideas for a model? I might make one...

MA

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Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:36 am
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Lord General Of Khaine
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http://www.druchii.net/cop/cop_history.html
http://www.druchii.net/cop/cop_lonicera.html
http://www.druchii.net/cop/cop_samaan.html
http://www.druchii.net/cop/cop_fod_nag.html
http://www.druchii.net/cop/cop_fod_shadowspite.html
http://www.druchii.net/cop/cop_fod_nag2.html

Read the History before you start making things, there are plenty of established characters there, and Lonciera has her own rules
http://www.druchii.net/monthly/issues/Jul04.pdf

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Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:15 am
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Whew, the activity in CoS topics has gone up in the last week; I'll try to keep up, but as I have work to do it might take me a while. ;) So, starting here with comments on SC; first some new thoughts/info on those already present in original fluff - Morathi and Dechala


Morathi
After looking through a couple of armybooks I haven't found any character who would have access to all spells from more than one list (slaans are the only ones who mix lists AFAIK, and none of them can choose their spells or has access to more than 6).

So another take on CoS version of Morathi would be simply to give her Pact with Slaanesh rule for 5 pts and ability to know all spells from either Dark Magic or Lore of Slaanesh (or Daemon Lore of Slaanesh, would that be available to Supreme Sorceresses; will comment on that in the main CoS rewrite thread) list according to player's choice (at no additional cost), making her a total of 460 pts.



Dechala
Got a quick read through Liber Chaotica, and found out that Dechala has a whole 4 pages of background there! This includes her description, history of her corruption as well as some info on her warband - the Tormentors; there are even some illustrations, which are supposedly skeches of her by LC in-world author (too bad they seem rather a colletion of concept art of daemonettes and different Slaaneshi champions ;) still, they are inspiring).
As usual with LC fluff this is all given as in-world info, her history being some of the more consistant legends about her. Still, as they really are consistant within and both with general and CoS fluff I think we can treat them as her objective history. In short it goes it as:

- Dechala was once an exceptionally beautiful elf-maid, daughter of An-Toralis, mighty lord of Nagarythe who fought alongside Aenarion.

- She and her family were chased and persecuted by Daemon Prince Samael, who wanted her like no other being since his ascention to daemonhood (concering world's timeline, either he also was an elf once or came from some other world... or maybe time simply)

- Samael came repeatedly with one demand: he would leave whole family at peace if they gave Dechala to him

- Finally, tired - and probably also corrupted by Widowmaker effect on all Aenarion's followers - they decided to agree to Samael's demand.

- Rather than abuse her, Samael wanted to corrupt Dechala and keep her with him forever. In anger and frustration, she agreed to marry him, as long as he granted her power to revenge upon her family.

- She killed them all, making her father especially to suffer long tortures before his death. Slaanesh, amused by her imagination and fury in that respect marked her and in time bestowed more gifts upon her.

- That made Samael jealous; While Dechala wanted him to tread her as an equal, he would not agree for that; seeing that he might soon turn against her, Dechala fled into Chaos Wastes

- Samael raged; he called upon Slaanesh to bring his beloved back, so he could punish her

- Slaanesh, irritated by Daemon Prince making him demands refused. He did however had soft spot for Samael, and so promised him, that as long as Samael existed, Dechala would not be ascended to daemonhood.

- So while aquiring many gifts from Slaanesh, such as her snake-like tail or many arms, Dechala remained mortal. She gathered a band of followers around her and fights in the Chaos Wastes


So the only thing that would be needed is bringing this story a little further, to a moment where Dechala decides to join CoS:

- I believe as a daughter of Aenarion's companion she must have known Morathi

- It also might have been Morathi who helped Daemon Prince to harras elven family in the material world (though Dechala is most probably unaware of that)

- Morathi new what has become of her. So she might send expedition to seek Dechala out in the Wastes to further her case.



Another thing is that her elixir is said to be fed by force (on the battlefield already) to victims by Dechala's followers, and as it's highly addictive it gives them a choice of following her or die in great suffering. This however is hard to represent in-game, so I'd go with the following:

Venom of Damnation
Dechala covers her blades with a poison of her own creation; while not as potent as her elixir, it does give it's victims a taste of nightmare that unholy potion brings.

The rule itself stays as:
All of Dechala's attacks count as having the Piosoned Attacks special rule; A model that suffers an unsaved wound from her blades may not strike during that combat phase unless it can pass a Leadership test.

After discussion here, I agree that she might be modeled to fit well on 25mm base, and think it fits her rules better than bigger base, so I'd go with that.

This means she costs total of 225 points.



@MartialArtist - link to Dechala's old miniature is next to the link to picture, in the same sentence.

Characters from older druchii.net CoP fluff
@Voodoomaster - thanks for the links; found some interesting background there. Some of it became a bit dated with 7th ed DE AB, but nothing that can't be dealed with. ;) Concerning characters described there:


As number of SC to include in the list is limited, I believe only some of those mentioned in background should have rules (just like other ABs have it); Would base that on both their importance to fluff, diversity (as in not to put too many of one type or too similiar SC in the list) and also originality rule-wise (seen as: 'what does this SC bring to the list that regular ones can't?').

I also think, that if rules for a certain character are not developed, it might be a reason not to include it (rule-wise of course; no problem with having them as a part of background). If someone voluteer for making such rules, then its great. On the other hand, I suspect most people would be more inspired by their own ideas for SC and I see no reason to forbid that; all those characters come from unofficial background after all.



Ok, so going to specific characters:

Lonicera
- plays an important role in the backgound and already has rules, just needing an update to 7th ed.

- being a regular Supreme Sorceress her only untypical rules (either from gifts or items) are:

#If she succeedes in either wounding or affecting enemy with a spell, she can steal power from enemy in both friendly and enemy magic phase. She may take one enemy power or dispel dice and use it has her own dispel/power dice. Each time she does that, she must pass a Ld test or suffer 1 wound.
# enemy within 6" suffer -1 to all Ld tests
# Bound spell - Eternal Hatered towars everyone, not just HE; affects herself, as well as a unit she joins
# 5+ ward increased to 4+ against HE magical attacks and spells from Lore of Life & High Magic
# enemy must pass a Ld test to attack her
#If Morathi's not present, she must be the army general

- The most importat (powerful&untypical) special effect IMO is her staff's ability of stealing power/dispel dice. I do believe it is quite powerful, so needs some restrictions and such she gets.

- On the other hand, it seems to me that those restrictions don't translate well into the fluff - what does 'stealing of power' represent in terms of background that she needs to hurt enemy (not nessecerly enemy wizard) to do it?

- So I'm a bit mixed about her. Not a particular fan of her rules, as even if mentioned issue is explained, she still is a regular SS with a little bit of offensive power, some protection and spellcasting bonus and as such is quite similar to Morathi. She still is an important part of background and her fluff is interesting.

What do you guys think of including her?


Nagathi
- an Anointed; not very unique beyond that

- so unless someone gets inspired by his story and comes up with the rules, not much of a SC.

- add to that, that we do have other ideas for Anointed, such as Morgoth (BTW MartialArtist - did you decide wether to rename him and if so - how?) so I'd leave Nagathi out.


Sam'aan - Cabal of Pleasure and its characters
A good piece of CoS background (as with other earlier fluff - might need some tweaking for 7th ed), though rarther on local scale; definitly it would be too much to include all 3 characters from there

- Dhearanna, High Priestess is a regular Supreme Sorceres; don't know if her lack of Mark of Slaanesh is a mistake or intentional, but doesn't make a good SC anyway IMO.

- Senix the Torture Master gives some potential for interesting, original rules

- might make an interesing diad-character-entry with his apprentice Yrael, still how would such rule-bind translate I have no idea. Also what unique might a torture master do during a battle (without stretching credibility and usfulness of rules) is beyond me.

- Yrael as a separate special character doesn't fit I believe; his only unique thing would be equippement of beastmaster anyway.

- so all in all - I'd leave these out completly from rules for now. They might make interesing material for a campaign involving Clar Karond or simply be a piece of background.



Lorellia – The Minstrel of Despair
(I believe she is a devoted-hero?)

Well, I do have contradicting, but quite clear feelings about her:
- do like the idea & fluff much
- dislike the rules


In details:

1. I think idea of 'minstrel' type character is great; singing enhanced with Slaaneshi power makes a very cool concept.


2. Her background story is interesting; I find some names unfitting (IMO should be Slaanesh instead of Atharti and dances shouldn't be named after all Cytharai - Khaine in particular), but those don't affect general idea and come from differences in our view of fluff, as I believe.


3. I like her her ability to support friendly units - quite a rare concept for offensive army, still one put in a way I thinks fits CoS.


4. I do not like her ability to hinder enemy units, because - while also fluffy - it is IMO too similiar to Masque's rules (at least with given rules for Lorellia's songs).


5. Also, her singing affecting only some targets is problematic in a couple of ways.
- what is and what is not a 'non-sentient being' might be discussable; I'd rather stick with 'does not affect models ItP' only, as undead (and all other non-sentient beings I can think of now) already have it.

- 'does not affect ItP' was once quite common, in 7th ed it has been removed from most places; I assume reason for that is:
a)it's magic, so can find a way to work
b)hard to cost out, as such ability would be totally usless against some armies (Undead and Daemons most notably)

So I'd remove that also - it's more in line with general rules, simplier and still easier to explain than poison affecting undead. ;)


6. IMO she definitly should cost more.
- taking the Masque as a base, one has to consider that she doesn't have Locus of Slaanesh or ASF rules that regular Slaaneshi Herald gets, and also is a T3 2W 5+ Ward character who can't hide in units for protection

- taking in account all that I believe her dances alone are worth about 25 points (a bit on the cheap side IMO, but that's what I came up with from the calculations)

- now, Lorellia's singing rules are more limited, but the effects themselves are more powerful and varied. If having same rules as dances (simple 12" effect for 1 unit) they would cost about:

# -1 to hit for enemy unit-> 50-55 pts
# -3 Ld for enemy unit-> 50-60 pts
# test Ld or flee for enemy unit -> 50 pts
# unbrekable upon friendly unit -> 75-90 pts

A bit hard to make fair total cost, because of big difference in one effect's worth, still would be about 60-65 pts total; should 'unbrekable' be changed to 'stubborn' (60 pts) total should be 55 pts IMO.

- As I said above, I believe effect not covering ItP to be hard to price out; My guess would be 50 pts instead of 60-65 for orignal effects; it should be balanced against most opponents, but is still 50 pts for nothing against some armies and underpriced against those that have little in the way of ItP

- So, without any changes to her rules, coming up from Druchii Master she would be:
Master - 80 pts
Additional HW - 4 pts
Mark of Slaanesh - 5 pts
+1 I, A & WS - 25-30 pts
Speed of Slaanesh - 25 pts (same as Quickening Blood - she's not a champion, but a hero with other bonuses to reinforce her, so should pay full price)
Soporific Musk (now renamed to Narcotic Fumes) - 30 pts
Allure of Slaanesh (now renamed to Aura of Slaanesh) - 25 pts
Voice of the Minstrel - 50 pts

for a total of: 245 pts
also bear in mind that she gets total of 130 pts of item-like special rules, wheras normal master gets access to 50.



7. To me she seem an interesting idea, but in current version would need to be quite costy with what she does. I would rather see her (although this has more to do with me wanting to introduce champion-level characters to our list, than with anything else ;) ) as a spiced-up Mistress of Devoted:

- regular Mistress stats (+1 WS and/or I on top of that at most, but looking at her background I don't think she needs it - her special talent lies in singing, not fighting itself)
- Mark of Slaanesh, EH and Narcotic Fumes as per normal Mistress
- Speed of Slaanesh as available to normal Mistress
- Voice of the Minstrel

Would rather see her songs talent as supporting friends than hindering enemies, but that, as I've written above is more about making her more unique than more fluffy (as she already is ;) ).

As she's would be a champion I'd also see her songs support rather her unit than any within 12" (would also help to keep her resonably cheap)

Or how about her voice having two-level effect:
- a couple of effects to choose from for her unit
- one additonal effect for all units within 12" (stubborn? +1Ld?)

Well, thats my ideas and comments about her. Pick what you want from that. :)


Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:21 am
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Weenth wrote:
Lorellia – The Minstrel of Despair
(I believe she is a devoted-hero?)

Well, I do have contradicting, but quite clear feelings about her:
- do like the idea & fluff much
- dislike the rules


In details:

1. I think idea of 'minstrel' type character is great; singing enhanced with Slaaneshi power makes a very cool concept.

2. Her background story is interesting; I find some names unfitting (IMO should be Slaanesh instead of Atharti and dances shouldn't be named after all Cytharai - Khaine in particular), but those don't affect general idea and come from differences in our view of fluff, as I believe.


I choose the Cytharai names because I wanted her songs to be songs that one might find in Druchii society in general, but just with her magical abilities added to them. Basically the power comes from Slaanesh/Atharti (I view the Atharti/Slaanesh relationship as I view the Khaine/Khorne relationship. At one and the same time both one and the same, but somehow also different entities.)


Weenth wrote:
3. I like her her ability to support friendly units - quite a rare concept for offensive army, still one put in a way I thinks fits CoS.

4. I do not like her ability to hinder enemy units, because - while also fluffy - it is IMO too similiar to Masque's rules (at least with given rules for Lorellia's songs).


That’s partially deliberate. I took some inspiration from the Masque, and then played around with thoughts of the Sirens and similar creatures from mythology. Also, her name is derived from the German “Lorelei”, who is a myth/legend/story from the Sankt Goar/Rhine area.

Weenth wrote:
5. Also, her singing affecting only some targets is problematic in a couple of ways.
- what is and what is not a 'non-sentient being' might be discussable; I'd rather stick with 'does not affect models ItP' only, as undead (and all other non-sentient beings I can think of now) already have it.

- 'does not affect ItP' was once quite common, in 7th ed it has been removed from most places; I assume reason for that is:
a)it's magic, so can find a way to work
b)hard to cost out, as such ability would be totally usless against some armies (Undead and Daemons most notably)

So I'd remove that also - it's more in line with general rules, simplier and still easier to explain than poison affecting undead.


Fair enough. My thought was that if a creature (like a Skeleton) was a non-sentient, controlled creature, with no feelings to invoke, then the songs wouldn’t be able to affect them. But I agree that it’s far easier to either make troops with the Immune to Psychology rule immune, and let her affect the rest with the excuse that “it’s magic, not psychology”.

Weenth wrote:
6. IMO she definitly should cost more.
- taking the Masque as a base, one has to consider that she doesn't have Locus of Slaanesh or ASF rules that regular Slaaneshi Herald gets, and also is a T3 2W 5+ Ward character who can't hide in units for protection

- taking in account all that I believe her dances alone are worth about 25 points (a bit on the cheap side IMO, but that's what I came up with from the calculations)

- now, Lorellia's singing rules are more limited, but the effects themselves are more powerful and varied. If having same rules as dances (simple 12" effect for 1 unit) they would cost about:

# -1 to hit for enemy unit-> 50-55 pts
# -3 Ld for enemy unit-> 50-60 pts
# test Ld or flee for enemy unit -> 50 pts
# unbrekable upon friendly unit -> 75-90 pts

A bit hard to make fair total cost, because of big difference in one effect's worth, still would be about 60-65 pts total; should 'unbrekable' be changed to 'stubborn' (60 pts) total should be 55 pts IMO.

- As I said above, I believe effect not covering ItP to be hard to price out; My guess would be 50 pts instead of 60-65 for orignal effects; it should be balanced against most opponents, but is still 50 pts for nothing against some armies and underpriced against those that have little in the way of ItP

- So, without any changes to her rules, coming up from Druchii Master she would be:
Master - 80 pts
Additional HW - 4 pts
Mark of Slaanesh - 5 pts
+1 I, A & WS - 25-30 pts
Speed of Slaanesh - 25 pts (same as Quickening Blood - she's not a champion, but a hero with other bonuses to reinforce her, so should pay full price)
Soporific Musk (now renamed to Narcotic Fumes) - 30 pts
Allure of Slaanesh (now renamed to Aura of Slaanesh) - 25 pts
Voice of the Minstrel - 50 pts

for a total of: 245 pts
also bear in mind that she gets total of 130 pts of item-like special rules, wheras normal master gets access to 50.


You’re right. She should cost more than my initial thought. How about we call it an even 250 pts.?
It’s true that she would be more or less useless against some armies, but I must admit that I don’t see that as a real problem. But I’m probably biased in this regard, as I must admit that I absolutely HATE the fact that special characters have become such a profound part of the armylists. IMO they should have remained as a rare sight on the battlefield, and opponent’s consent only. But I’m quite “oldschool” in this regard.
I do have a suggestion on her stats though. Since my vision of her is as a “ranged support” type character, it might be a logical step to make her less effective in combat than as initially presented. Say regular Master stats (+1 for extra hand weapon), and no Speed of Slaanesh. With those reductions you could call her 200 pts.


Weenth wrote:
7. To me she seem an interesting idea, but in current version would need to be quite costy with what she does. I would rather see her (although this has more to do with me wanting to introduce champion-level characters to our list than with anything else ) as a spiced-up Mistress of Devoted:

- regular Mistress stats (+1 WS and/or I on top of that at most, but looking at her background I don't think she needs it - her special talent lies in singing, not fighting itself)
- Mark of Slaanesh, EH and Narcotic Fumes as per normal Mistress
- Speed of Slaanesh as available to normal Mistress
- Voice of the Minstrel

Would rather see her songs talent as supporting friends than hindering enemies, but that, as I've written above is more about making her more unique than more fluffy (as she already is ).

As she's would be a champion I'd also see her songs support rather her unit than any within 12" (would also help to keep her resonably cheap)

Or how about her voice having two-level effect:
- a couple of effects to choose from for her unit
- one additonal effect for all units within 12" (stubborn? +1Ld?)

Well, thats my ideas and comments about her. Pick what you want from that.


I thought about that as well, and ultimately decided against it for a couple of reasons.

1) I generally just dislike Champion lvl. special characters, and frankly I’d rather have been without them in the game. But as said earlier, I’m biased in this regard.

2) If she becomes a champion type character, it’s my impression that she must stay with the unit she’s bought for, and that I consider a significant weakness for a character that I initially didn’t see as having a direct combat role (even if I then continued to go overboard with her combat stats…).

If we are going to make her a Devoted Champion, then let’s say regular Devoted Champion stats incl. upgrades (Speed of Slaanesh), and then the following rules for the “Voice of the Minstrel” ability:
1) Unit she’s with becomes Stubborn.
2) Unit automatically rallies if fleeing.
3a) Force enemy unit within 12” to pass a Ld test on 3d6 in order to charge in the following turn
or
3b) Force a -1 to hit modifier on an enemy unit within 12” for 1 Turn.


1 & 2 would make her unit more durable, 3a would help prevent charges against her unit (or help set units up for a charge from them), and 3b would be quite potent when combined with the Narcotic Fumes rule (half enemy I and WS), since it would cause units with WS4 or less to only hit the unit on 6+. For this reason 3b might be a little overpowered for a Champion ability. Anyway, as a champion we’d cost her as what?

Basis Devoted Champion = 24 pts.
Speed of Slaanesh = 10 pts.
Stubborn = 60 pts.
Auto Rally = 20 pts.?
3a = 40-50 pts.?
3b = 60 pts. (6th ed. Ring of Darkness was 45 pts. and affected attacks against the character only. This one affects the entire unit).


Total of 154-174 pts., depending on value for 3a and option with voice ability 3a or 3b.

Alternatively I just had a fairly unique idea. In stead of making her replace the unit Champion, how about then letting her replace the Musician?

Regular Devoted Musician stats and equipment.
+1 to combat result (like a standard bearer or a War Banner).
Unit Stubborn.
Unit auto rally.
3a or 3b as above.

Cost: 12+6+25+60+20+40-60 = 163-183 pts.


And to finish off: Good constructive comments Weenth :)

/Kyrel


Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:26 pm
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Got stuff to do and not a lot of time at the moment, will post more later (couple of days or on weekend) but just quickly:

Weenth wrote:
Morathi
After looking through a couple of armybooks I haven't found any character who would have access to all spells from more than one list (slaans are the only ones who mix lists AFAIK, and none of them can choose their spells or has access to more than 6).


Not sure if this contradicts yout, but Daemons of Chaos Kairos Fateweaver gets all of the Tzeentch Daemonic spell list, plus I think its 4 spells he chooses from Light, Beasts, Life, Heavens and 4 also from Shadow, Death, Fire and Metal. I think he has about 14 spells total. Just a thought that passed me as I was scanning the page. As said more later.

And would somebody please read my fluff stories!

MA

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Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:52 am
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Wanted to do something a bit different to main rule/asummptions work, so here are my comments and new ideas on SCs. :)

@Kyrel - my POV on our Special Characters creaton:
- we agreed we want to follow general format of 7th ed armylists
- this IMO includes special characters available without opponent's permission
- if one plays by the house rule of opponent's permission SC, it won't hurt if they're well balanced
- if one plays without house rule on that, they can always be taken, and because of that I believe we must make them balanced


And on to specific characters:

MORATHI

Martial Artist wrote:
Not sure if this contradicts yout, but Daemons of Chaos Kairos Fateweaver gets all of the Tzeentch Daemonic spell list, plus I think its 4 spells he chooses from Light, Beasts, Life, Heavens and 4 also from Shadow, Death, Fire and Metal. I think he has about 14 spells total.

Ok, so it looks like both variants of Morathi are theoretically viable:

A) 460 pts, Pact with Slaanesh (rules as MoS), may use either Dark Magic, Lore of Slaanesh or Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh and knows all the spells from the chosen lore.

B) 485 (more?) pts, PwS, knows all the spells from Dark Magic, Lore of Slaanesh and Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh


and there's also:

C) 485 (about?) pts, PwS, knows 6 spells chosen freely from Dark Magic, Lore of Slaanesh and Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh.


The 'C' would probably be closest analogy to her 6th ed version, still I'd take 'A' to keep her close to her regular DE version in terms of cost and power; evenmoreso as she could otherwise mix quite powerful lores.

What do you think?



LORELLIA
As a main note - it's yours idea for a character, Kyrel, so as long as you keep her balanced the decision of making hero or champion level is up to you.

Having said that, I really would like you to go with the latter. I want to have champion-level devoted SC in the list, so will do one myself if noone else wants to do it. Still, I don't think anything I'd come up with myself would be as cool as your idea of 'gifted musican'. :)


A) Hero-level version

Kyrel wrote:
Weenth wrote:
for a total of: 245 pts
also bear in mind that she gets total of 130 pts of item-like special rules, wheras normal master gets access to 50.
You’re right. She should cost more than my initial thought. How about we call it an even 250 pts.?
It’s true that she would be more or less useless against some armies, but I must admit that I don’t see that as a real problem. But I’m probably biased in this regard, as I must admit that I absolutely HATE the fact that special characters have become such a profound part of the armylists. IMO they should have remained as a rare sight on the battlefield, and opponent’s consent only. But I’m quite “oldschool” in this regard.
I do have a suggestion on her stats though. Since my vision of her is as a “ranged support” type character, it might be a logical step to make her less effective in combat than as initially presented. Say regular Master stats (+1 for extra hand weapon), and no Speed of Slaanesh. With those reductions you could call her 200 pts.


As she's a devoted character, I'd leave her at least +1 I over Master, if not +1 I & WS. The first would be IMO 200 pts, the latter 210 pts.

Also, even without SoS that's over 100 pts of 'bonus skills' on a hero - I think it needs checking in playtesting if such combo doesn't put her battlefield worth above pure maths count; Still, she does look balanced to me on the paper.


B) Champion-level version


Kyrel wrote:
If we are going to make her a Devoted Champion, then let’s say regular Devoted Champion stats incl. upgrades (Speed of Slaanesh), and then the following rules for the “Voice of the Minstrel” ability:
1) Unit she’s with becomes Stubborn.
2) Unit automatically rallies if fleeing.
3a) Force enemy unit within 12” to pass a Ld test on 3d6 in order to charge in the following turn
or
3b) Force a -1 to hit modifier on an enemy unit within 12” for 1 Turn.


1 & 2 would make her unit more durable, 3a would help prevent charges against her unit (or help set units up for a charge from them), and 3b would be quite potent when combined with the Narcotic Fumes rule (half enemy I and WS), since it would cause units with WS4 or less to only hit the unit on 6+. For this reason 3b might be a little overpowered for a Champion ability. Anyway, as a champion we’d cost her as what?

Basis Devoted Champion = 24 pts.
Speed of Slaanesh = 10 pts.
Stubborn = 60 pts.
Auto Rally = 20 pts.?
3a = 40-50 pts.?
3b = 60 pts. (6th ed. Ring of Darkness was 45 pts. and affected attacks against the character only. This one affects the entire unit).



Total of 154-174 pts., depending on value for 3a and option with voice ability 3a or 3b.

Alternatively I just had a fairly unique idea. In stead of making her replace the unit Champion, how about then letting her replace the Musician?

Regular Devoted Musician stats and equipment.
+1 to combat result (like a standard bearer or a War Banner).
Unit Stubborn.
Unit auto rally.
3a or 3b as above.

Cost: 12+6+25+60+20+40-60 = 163-183 pts.
1. I just love the idea of her replacing the musician. Would go that way.


2. I think 3b should be much more than 60:
- RoD was a bound item, this one simply works
- WE get -1 to hit for one turn for a wounded opponet (35 pts item)
- this one doesn't require wounding anyone
- works on 12" range rather than BTB (I'd say cost x1,5-2)
- works on a whole unit


3. So I'd go with 3a; I think 40 would be ok for it.


4. On the general cost:

- As I understand it, the SC champion replaces one normal trooper, so no need to include that in the cost (so 12 rather than 24 basic cost; 6 in case of replacing musican)

- I'd cut down 'stubborn' cost from 60 to 40, as a regular musican/champion is quite easy to kill (and remove efect this way), and looking at vanilla DE SC champions, 1/4-1/3 is about the drop off they'd get for home-unit-affecting rules

- I believe autorally on her unit at 20 pts is ok, maybe even make that 15 due to 'champion status'

- Same with +1 resolution - 20 pts should be ok

- So:

Devoted musican - 6
+1 resolution - 20
Stubborn - 40
Autorally - 15
One Enemy 12" test Ld on 3D6 to charge - 40 is ok IMO

Total: 121


5. I must say champion costing even a bit more than his basic unit is somehow off to me. Also looking at other (DE and DoC) champion-level characters, I'd say she should be 100 pts max.

- So I'd remove either +1 resolution or stubborn. Preferably the second, as both +1 resolution and autorally are very fitting IMO as 'upgraded' general musican skills.

- Other option would be to look for some cheaper enemy-affecting skill, though I do like the one you've given.


Some other ideas:

1. +2 on break tests instead of +1 combat resolution and stubborn; would make her about 80-85 pts


2. no stubborn and give optional bonuses (decide at the start of CC turn):

A) +2 on combat resolution (agressive option)

B) +2 to break test and auto-rally next turn if broken depite that (defensive option).

Would make her about 90-95 pts.


For finish let me repeat myself and say I think idea of making her a SC musican is great. ;)




And now a creation of mine:

SVENNA CRYSTAL-EYED (with ISORMRE THE WITCH)


IDEA BEHIND SCs

1. As mention a while ago, I wanted to make up fluff for my female marauders and their leader.

2. Also wanted a Marauder character tied up well with Cult of Slaanesh army and Morathi.

3. My general idea rule-wise was a character who’s a leader more than a fighter.

4. Addtional thought was: as I dislike the way Chaos-infighting has been pushed back in last two editions fluff, wanted a way to reintroduce it in some form.

5. While thinking on the background story, it occured to me that marauders’ shamans, while present in fluff, were not brought into the rules; As 2 regular marauder choices would definitly be too much in CoS army, I decideded to include one as a SC; was even more inclined to do so when it turned out that she plays an important part in the story.


BACKGROUND

Among the many stories told by the barbaric marauders of the north, one speaks of a strange tribe wandering throughout the Northern Wastes. There are told to be no males among them, just tall and lithe, yet strong women of fair skin and hair. Despite the disbelief the Old Worlders regard these tales with, this warband does exist. They are descendants of the Kvellings tribe, led by Svenna Crystal-eyed.

Svenna Kristallög – as she’s called in her native tongue - was born and raised by a Norse shaman – Isormre, better known to her own people as Witch, in a settlement along the coastline north of Norsca. No-one knows who fathered her; tribe rumours hold that it was a stranger possesed by one of Shornall’s servants, maybe even the Serpent God himself, thus making Svenna a Succubus – half-human and half-daemon offspring.

Whatever the truth, she indeed was a being of almost unearthly beauty and growing up, she became well aware of it. Her presence often caused fights among men and even caused a raid upon her settlement by an Aeslings tribe, whose chieftans much desired a bride of such beauty. While such attention cost the lives of many of her kinsmen, Svenna seemed to enjoy it.

Her life was changed unexpectedly, when some of her kinsmen spotted riders coming from the north. Many were their numbers, and they bore the sign of Chron, the Hound of War upon them. Seeing this as simply another entertainment, Svenna lured her fellow warriors from staying behind settlement’s pallisade to confront the raiders on open ground. Each wanting to show-off before her, they did so and thus caused their own doom. They fought bravely but before dusk all lay dead upon the bare earth, some mutilated, their heads taken as trophies by their killers.

Fear of death fell upon those left in the settlement. While followers of Chron camped outside for the night, the women within the pallisade knew that left with just few children and old men they would not be able to defend themselves even for one day. Then the Witch spoke. She claimed that the only way to save themselves now is to make a great sacrifice to the Serpent God, known to be as great enemy to Chron, as water is to fire. And what a greater sacrifice, she argued, then killing their own sons and grandfathers, all that remained of their male relatives.

Some were reluctant, but fear for their own life won over most and they agreed to take part in the ritual. Boys and old men were captured and women of all ages drank the narcotic herbs Isormre prepeared. With this their minds became misted and they recalled little of what happened next, just some flashbacks of great orgy, both within the settlement and outside it, with Chron raiders willingly taking part.

When they came to themselves the sun was already high in the sky, their settlement was burnt down and they were lying on the ground around it among the naked corpses of their invaders. It was at this point that Svenna, who seemed to have undergone subtlye physical change overnight, took charge and decided that as they owned their lives to Shornall, they should go into the north to spread his praise.



And so began the history of Snake’s Brides, as the women began to call themselves. The youngest children and older women quickly died in the harsh conditions of the Wastes. Others survived and seemed also to be favoured by Shornall; though Svenna remained the most exalted, even the ugliest of women became beauties seemingly resistant to the claw of time. They fought other marauder tribes in the north and soon it was well known that to be captured by them was a fate worse than death, especially for men.

One day during their wandering the marauderesses noticed a bright, pinkish aura to the north, a strange silhouette - half snake, half women - was outlined with light in the centre of it. Svenna ordered her followers to wait and approached the light alone. When she came back she bore a snake-formed bracelet upon her arm and had a banner in her hand, depicting the Shornall as a crested water-snake. What was strange about the picture was that it seemed to move, not only within but even in and out of the standard’s fabric.

Svenna revealed to her followers, that who she faced was the Shornall herself, her true name being Slaanesh. She also claimed that she was granted with the artifacts to help them in their mission to come, wandering farther to the north and east to recover items stolen from Slaanesh.

What Svenna remains unaware of is that she’s been mislead, for the being granting her with items and mission was none other than Druchii Hag Sorceress Morathi cloaked in an illusion. The Witch Queen also made Svenna believe that Chrone, Khorne, as well as the elf-god Khaine are all one being and as such equally deserving of her hatred. The braclet Svenna was gifted, in addition to granting her magical protection, also gave a way for Morathi to enter into Svenna’s mind. Morathi subtly manipulated her thoughts, sometimes even taking direct control. At these times the other marauderesses believed that it was Slaanesh speaking through their leader’s lips, rousing no suspicions but instead even more devotion.

And so the Snake’s Brides became unwilling agents of Druchii Queen, searching out artefacts of power for her, wherever it was easier for a marauder to tread than dark elf. Morathi also ensured Svenna gained much reknown among the other marauders, though to what end can only be guessed as Morathi has already demonstrated she can sway the northen tribes to her banner without the use of a puppet. Even so, the elf-queen has made Svenna’s band march to Naggaroth to join her rising force, their uses as yet unknown...



RULES

Your army may include Svenna and Isormre for 300 points. Should you do so, they must be included both, taking two hero choices and counting as one Marauder Warlord for the purpose of further marauder characters inclusion.

Stats:
Svenna
M4, WS6, BS3, S4, T3, W2, I7, A4, Ld7*

Isormre
M4, WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W2, I4, A1, Ld7

Isorme is a Level 1 wizard and always uses Lore of Slaanesh.

Equipement:
Svenna: Light armour and flail.
Isormre: Hand weapon.


Mounts:
Svenna may ride a warhorse for +10 pts.


Special rules:
Both have Mark of Slaanesh, Hate Khorne and Together Stronger; Svenna also has Allure of Slaanesh


Allure of Slaanesh
It is said that thanks to Slaanesh Svenna became of such beauty, that even her followers can’t take their eyes off her face, an so she is forced to cover it with helmet to allow them concentrating on the enemy. Even so, mere look with her crystal-like bright blue eyes is enough to make oponnent stop his blow mid-air and stare in awe.
Enemy models wishing to attack Svenna must first pass a Leadership test. If the test is failed, the affected model may not strike blows in that round of combat.



Hate Khorne
Be it due to having their kinsmen slain by Khorne followers or simply disdain for such blood-lust and limited in pleasure creatures, Svenna and her followers hate Khorne followers and all whom they see as such.
This means all Marauder and Marauder Horsmen units with Mark of Slaanesh in CoS army including Svenna and Isormre hate Khornate Daemons, models with mark of Khorne and models with Khainite special rule.



Together Stronger
Svenna doesn’t fight on her own, as she would rather have her marauderesses perform as her bodyguards.
If you include Svenna and Isormre you must also have at least one unit of marked Marauders with full command group. They are both included in that unit and cannot leave it, though, unlike unit’s champion, they count separate for deciding Victory Points purposes (Svenna is worth 160 pts and Isormre 90 pts).



Magic items:
Svena wears The Serpent Bracelet; Isormre has Shornall’s Scale; additionaly standard bearer of their bodyguard unit has Standard of the Serpent God (worth 50 pts, add it to unit’s worth for purpose of deciding Victory Points.

The Serpent Bracelet <Enchanted Item>
This silvery bracelet bestows protective magic upon Svenna, at the same time making her unwillingly puppet of the Hag Sorceress
Svenna has a 5+ ward save. She also gains +2 Ld bouns and can bestow her Leadership to Marauder and Marauder Horsmen units within 12”. If the army includes Morathi, the Bracelet bonus is upped to +3 Ld, but should Morathi be slain, Svenna looses the Ld bouns altogether and is subject to stupidity. This effect also applies should The Serpent Bracelet be destroyed or stopped from working (in latter case the effect may be temporary).



The Shornall’s Scale <Enchanted Item>
Isormre wears a small pouch in witch she keeps blueish, shimmering items, seemingly wet in touch and resembling large snake scales in shape. It is said that they contain the same power which saved marauderesses form Chron raiders; etheral, watery serpent engulfs it’s victims, bringing halucinations and making them loose contact with reality for a moment. As Isormre has only few of them left, she is reluctant from using more than one at a time.
One use only. During shooting phase nominate one enemy unit within 18” of Isormre. The target must pass a Ld test on 3D6 or can do nothing at all during this Cult’s turn and also during his own nearest turn.



Standard of the Serpent God <Magic Banner>
Conatining a daemon bound within, this banner poses a threat to the enemy in itself.
Each CC turn the standard itself makes D6 WS6, S3 poisoned attacks. Deal these out before any other fighting (but after impact hits, etc.); The Cult player can decide how to deploy them, treating them as coming from the standard bearer for deciding base-to-base contact purposes.




Point Values:

Svenna stats – 55 pts <cost coming from modified Empire/DoW captain>

Isormre stats & 1 lvl magic – 65 pts <cost coming from modified Empire/DoW wizard>

Mark of Slaanesh – 5 pts each

Hatred of Khorne & disability of leaving unit – 0 <IMO they equal out each other>

Allure of Slaanesh – 25 pts <as DoC daemonic gift of same name>

Standard of Serpent God – 50 pts <based on similar effect, but weaker WE Murder of Spites>

5+ Ward – 30 pts <as khainite Dance of Doom>

The rest of Serpent Bracelet effect – 45 pts <+2 Ld is about 20 pts, usually 12” aura makes an effect 3-4x times as costy, but as this is for two unit entries only I think x2 is enough; Bonus for Morathi is both limited and countered with risk of stupidity, so just 5 points for that>

Shornall’s Scale – 20 pts <DE Crystal of Midnight has a bit similiar idea and is 35 pts; I believe 1 turn of disability is weaker effect than loosing 1 spell for entire game, and also CoM has unlimited range, wheras SS works only within 18”>

So:
Svenna Total: 160
Isormre Total: 90
Banner: 50
Overall Total: 300


Other Comments:
1. As Svenna cannot leave her Marauder unit, bonus from taking a warhorse limits to upping her AS to 5+, providing US 2 for outnumber purpose and 2 25mm bases for rank bouns purpose (as per GW mixed-base-units rules)

- I want to include this option as I really like the image of her, standing out from her followers to be looked upon and admired.

- Another option would be to allow her bodyguard be Marauder Horsmen also, but this doesn’t fit my view of her role


2. Their 'slot requirement' is done so as to allow using them in up to 2000 pts battles (personal intrest here, as that's the size of battle I usually play ;) ), I believe their power level fits this size of battle.

3. Toyed around with Svenna's presence making her bodyguard stubborn, but that would make her too pricey IMO.


4. As mentioned before, have very little experience with writing fluff-stories and english isn’t my native language, so feel free to give feedback on linguistic aspect also.

Waiting for comments :)


Last edited by Weenth on Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:52 pm
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Seems really good. Like Lorellia, makes my Morgoth idea seem pretty lame and inspired.

Just some comments from an outsider point of view:
I understand where you are going with the Serpent Bracelet, but at the moment it seems a little too complicated. Maybe you could just change it to something like "5+ Ward. Svena acts as and replaces the army general for any Marauder units on the Cult side."

The bit about the leadership bonus is still complicated but i can't work out how to make it simpler seeing as you obviously want the bonus leadership to dissapear when she is taking stupidity tests. Needs some rephrasing, at the moment a little complicated, but I like the idea.

Isormre doesn't seem that great to me. She is a weak Level 1 wizard who can't be upgraded and the only really unique thing about her is the Scale that can stop an enemy for a turn, which I like and is useful, but having her just for that seems a bit lame. She can't be given a scroll or two, can't gain access to Level 2 magical power, is pretty hopeless in combat (has no armour) but is still most likely going to have to be in the front rank and get chopped down for easy casualties, forcing the Marauders to lose their Hatred bonus along the way (?).

I don't know, at the moment I'm just not sold on her.

I speak English as a first language and just having a look its all pretty good, a couple of grammar errors that could be fixed but its definetly much better than i could do in any language outside my first one. If you want I can correct the story for you and PM it back to you to repost, but its pretty good as is and I wouldn't need to change much (mostly the placement of ,'s to divide up the sentences).

I think it'd be cool if the Maruaders could be upgraded to Horseman, though its your stuff so you have the decision, but maybe then the bodyguard could have some weapons options and the fluff could be "occasionally the Snake's Brides ride to battle upon Warhorses, all the swifter to bring death to their hated enemies".

I also just now had the thought that as part of the "Hate Khorne" rule, you could maybe add something about how the unit with your SC's as a part of it either will always charge a "hated" foe over one not or that the unit MUST charge a "hated" foe if such a move is possible. Just a thought.

You also mentioned you like the idea of her standing out and I imagine being at the head of the action raising her weapon and bellowing war cries and inspiration "let us slay!" sort of shouts. Maybe you could add another rule to reflect that?

I do see that you don't want to make her to expensive by adding heaps of extra stuff, but I think with a bit of adjustment it would all be fine.

Also, could you explain why you so want to have both Svena and Isorme? As said I don't really like Isorme and I imagine her by now as a withered old crone, worthy of respect by Svena as she was raised and protected by her, but surely not in the sort of state to be fighting on the front lines of battle with Svena and her warriors?

One last comment: I really like the Standard Of The Serpent God.

MA

Btw,

Weenth wrote:
Waiting for comments :)


Keen to get feedback on the aspects you are interested in? I fully understand. Maybe I should also put something like this in the fluff discussion thread and I'd get more replys?! :)

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Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:02 am
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Heh, my intrest within this project won with my studies again... I planned to have 4 hours to finish of a drawing before the lesson, and now will have to finish it in less than 2 :roll:

So just very short comment for now:

I. Serpent Bracelet

- I believe Serpent Bracelet rules are not complicated by themselves, you're right though they probably need reprhasing. Something like:

- Make her Ld 9/10* in stats
with: *10 if Morathi is included in the army, 9 otherwise

And SB rules themselves:
'5+ ward; She acts as a general for all marauder units; If one of the following happens:
- Morathi is included and gets killed
- SB is destroyed/turned off by some means

Svenna gains stupidity and becomes Ld 7; should SB be repaired she re-gains her normal rules'

Rough wording, but I think still clearer. What do you think?


II. Isormre
- as all Snake's Brides are supposed to be blessed with time-less beauty by Slaanesh, I imagine her as a dark beauty in her early 30s, covered in tatoos and some (rather small-covering - this is Slaanesh after all ;) ) dark robes to contrast with pale skin.

- The unique think about Isormre is that she's a Marauder shaman - there's no other such character in any army; even WoC army gets 1 lvl wizards clad in Chaos Armour by default

- I want her for fluff/uniqueness reasons rather than power; I am aware she wouldn't be probably be taken on her own, but I don't see that as a problem, as she's part of the set (and cost appropriate to her usefullness)

- The way I imagined, one could place her by the standard bearer, so Standard's attack gives means to protect her in CC; still she might use some protection (6+ Ward to keep her cheap or something less typical)

III. Hatred
- Do like your suggestion, OTOH I want to keep that rule very simple; I'll think about it and comment later.

- Fluff-wise marauder units get hatred because they are Svenna's followers. So they keep it regardless of Svenna and/or Isormre being alive or dead.


IV. About language of background story - MA, I'll gladly have your corrections PMed. Thanks. :)


yeea... and that was supposed to be a short. ;) Well, anyway I'll get to the other issues later; thanks for the comments so far. :)


Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:17 am
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Ok, some more thoughts on Svenna & Isormre ; want to give my course of thoughts rather than solely solutions, so sorry if it turns out a bit long.



I. Hatred
After re-thinking, I think I'd rather leave hatered as is. I realised that while 'flat' hatred may seem a bit too 'normal', it's mostly due to 'AB speciality creep' ;) and specificaly, DE hating everyone and getting special rules for HE hatred. And if it's enough for Dwarfs to simply hate greenskins, then I think 'simple' hatred will suffice for marauderesses also.



II.To horse or not to horse? ;)

1. The more I think of it, the more I like idea of Svenna standing out, so I'd make her Warhorse obligatory rather than option.


2. I still am not sure about horsmen as her bodyguard:

- As mentioned, I wanted her to be 'marauder genearl' and if put in horsmen unit I think she'd rather be a 'leader of a small elite squad', as such unit would be small and also probably riding out there, far away from other marauder units (if any are taken)

- still, such 'elite squad' would fit 'artefact seekers' part of her fluff; So, while I choose footed unit over horsmen fluff-wise, I think they both fit

- She would loose aspect of 'standing out' in horsmen unit, so that is another con for that

- What I am afraid of, though can't exactly say why, is that horsmen bodyguard would be more attractive than regular marauders, so she'd end up being fielded only this way. And should she be fielded one way only, I'd rather want it to be with regular marauders.


So it all goes down to what roles each versions can fulfill:

- both cannot be used as a 'cannon fodder', as min unit with SCs is about 400 pts

- footed Snake's Brides I see as 'heavy devoted' (a bit less mobile and more fragile in HtH, but make that up by option of hitting harder (flails), and having cheaper ranks); should be useful against high T targets, such as Treekin

- cavalry Snake's Brides would be... what exactly? A relativly cheap medium cavalry, somewhere between DR and CoK in terms of CC hitting, while remaining fragile? I dunno. How would you use them?



III. Bodyguards' options

1. Initially I thought of leaving choice of equippement to player; now I'm considering of giving them flails and light armour as default, and only option for shields. That's how I envision them, though not sure I see a good reason to disallow other equipment sets.

2. Also, while SB and Musican should IMO be obligatory, I don't think it's so with a champion - there's no 'second hand warrior' in the fluff. Also this way there would be no place for a single regular trooper in the front rank!



IV. Isormre

1. Inspired by above, I'm thinking of making Isorme a 1W wizard-champion. What do you think about it? Would make her more unique and cheaper on the + side; still, easier to kill on the - side, so she would definitly need some form of protection


2. Considering protection, I had two assumptions:

a) make it crude/'poor' in comparison to regular protection (ward save, -1 to hit, etc), to show that she's just a shaman

b) keep it cheap

As you can see, fortunatly both these fit each other easily. ;)


Now, there are two aspects of protection:

1. direct (rule) aspect -> simply a chance not to suffer a wound while being attacked


2. psychological (meta-game) aspect -> giving opponent a reason not to attack character; like: 'why waste attacks on well-protected characters if I can kill R'n'F easily?'

- this means if a character is as easy to kill as R'n'F opponent will always try to rather kill the former (two reasons: more dangerous threat removed & separate VPs)


Tried to include both, more on that below.


My initial idea was for her to use some form of dodge or illusion, like:

Isorme cannot be attacked if there are other models in BTB to direct attack to.

but this would cleary be both too powerfull and costy. So after a bit of thinking I came up with 3 versions of Protective charm/amulet:


A) Enemy models wishing to attack Isormre must first pass a Ld test. If they fail, they must direct their attacks against other models in B2B contact. She can still be attacked if she's the only model in B2B contact. (5-10 pts)

B) Isormre has 5+ ward save against non-magical attacks only. (15 pts)

C) Both A and B (20-25 pts)



- Now, 'A' gives only 'rules protection' (if her protection works, you still hit another model, so no reason to spare her) and weak one at that (hence low cost, IMO 5 pts would be enough), still I like it's idea

- 'A' also makes her rule a 'poor-version of Svenna's Allure - I like that one one hand, and think it makes her less original on the other.

- 'B' offers some more protection (including psychological-game aspect), but is more ordinary

So, I guess I'd go for either A or C, but not sure ATM.


Also, She can benefit from 'psychological protection' by being a champion - this way she does not give separate VPs.


So she would be:

Isorme basic - M4, WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I4, Ld7 /50 pts(50 for 1 lvl magic, 0 for stats -> she's got worse stats than regular marauder, so she's additonal miniature rather than replacing regular marauder)

Shornall's Scale /20 pts

Protective Charm - A)5 pts B)15 pts C)20 pts

ISORME TOTAL: A)75 pts B)85 pts C)90 pts
(included in the unit's value for VPs purposes)


What do you think about such version?


Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:36 pm
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Black Guard
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I've made corrections to Svenna's background story - MA, once again thanks for help on that one.

Also, I know we concentrate on main rules now, still I'd be grateful if you have time to give some more feedback on these marauderesses. ;)

Right now I think of keeping C) option of Isormre's Protective Charm and letting them be either on foot or mounted.

So, for short summary on them:


Svenna & Isormre - 300 pts (Svenna herself is worth 160 pts, the remaining 140 pts should be added to Snake's Brides cost)

- take two hero slots (one of these counts as MW choice for composition purposes)

- Stats&items listed in previous posts (Isorme in her champion-like version with Protective Charm in 20 pts version)

- Must be accompanied by Snake's Brides - either Marauder or Marauder Horsmen unit, which they cannot leave. The minimal unit size is Svenna, Isormre, Standard Bearer, Musican and either 7 (Marauders) or 2 (Marauder Horsmen) regular troopers.

- The unit is equiped with flails & light armour; troopers (so not Svenna & Isormre) may have shields for +1 point per model; they may carry no other equipment.



Such version IMO looks good, at least on paper. Do you think something should be changed before playtesting her? (I think both unit variants are viable, but should mounted option turn out to be more attractive in playtesting, it should be removed)

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Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:52 pm
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The Guiding Eye
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Location: Sat drinking 'soul stealer' cocktails in the city of Vilebrier with Morathi...
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Heya guys - really admire the word everyone is putting in - hope this isnt classed as necromancy as the cult of pleasure threads are fantastic resources! I thought I'd have a crack at the big one: N'Kari - a favourite creature of mine since I first took up warhammer and read the high elf book of 5th edition fame - the stories have changed over time and N'Kari's role with it: he no longer features in the battle for the Finuvial Plain for example.

I would'nt quite know where to begin in terms of fluff exaplanation: N'Kari was always more associated with Malekith's pacts than Morathi's: though that said he is a daemon and I'm sure would have no qualms with whom he deals pacts with as long as its to his advantage.

I'll briefly run over what I've read and the sources - as of course this is an attempt for a 7th ed list its only suitable really that the fluff entails with this version.

Time of Legends: Malekith - I'm reading this currently but as yet the series hasn't introduced any story that involves N'Kari directly. That said N'Kari did rampage across Ulthuan before Malekith was born (ref: 7th ed Daemons of Chaos book)

6th Edition High Elf Book: only mentions him in terms of his pursuit of Tyrion and the Everqueen - this army book was very lacking in background material to draw from.

7th Edition Dark Elf Book: again, not so much mention of N'Kari apart from seeking out Alarielle and Tyrion to 'feed on her soul' (possible evidence for the use of the Spirit Swallower daemonic gift?)

7th Ed Daemons of Chaos: the most informative, as you'd expect, and rather bizzarely, despite a good section on his role as a greater daemon they did not include him as a special character...
From this book I learnt that:
1. N'Kari had been involved not only in leading the attack on Ulthuan, but also that he had fought in Lustria (p16: 'N'Kari, who led the assault against the elves, had learnt much in the bloody fighting against the Slann')
2. N'Karo enjoys war as a form of sport (p16: 'displeased with the lack of sport to be had by the elves')
3. N'kari can be rash (p16: 'released his followers to rampage across Ulthuan as they wished')
4. N'Kari is a higher commanding Greater Daemon as the 2nd column, 3rd paragraph suggests that greater daemons of all 4 powers were allowed to run free and rampage as they will (various supporting sentences).
5. He enjoys and wallows in the pain of others - he's pretty sadistic (N'kari drank in the heady scent of despair and rejoiced)
6. The 'N'Kari's Revenge' chapter suggests at the ability of the greater daemon to 'teleport' himself and his army "riding the tides of magical energy". He also ate the heart of the elven lord he first meets during this chapter - again more spirit swallower evidence. Rather confusingly however, the 'raids' that N'Kari leads earlier on in the chapter are often abandoned - even 'within moments of a devastating victory'. This is later explained that in this current form, he merely wants to seek vengeance on decendents of Anaerion (but not the Witch King?) - as soon as he has found them and sent them to eternal damnation, he moves onto the next in a calculated and cruelly motivated manner. He again commands Lords of Change in his attacks.
7. N'Kari has the ability to 'send intoxicating visions over the walls of the shrine to bedevil the dreams of those within' - evidence for some form of 'deluding nightmare' power?

N'Kari sees himself as 'mighty' and explains how he re-knits his physical body so that he can once again wreak vengeance upon the elves.

So the overall picture we get of N'Kari? He's sadistic, very aggresive but in a calculated manner, he's pretty insane and enjoys basking the misery of others. He does have magical abilities and particularly enjoys feasting on the souls of those he devours (he's a hungry little chappy). He does seem to be a 'greater' greater daemon - much like Kairos as he was leading the attack on Ulthuan: whether the other greater daemons joined the attack of their own accord or were commanded in either instance of N'Kari's attacks on Ulthuan is open to debate and speculation - however it seems that N'Kari's role in the eyes of the Gods is more pivotal than the other greater daemons. That said, every greater daemon adopts multiple roles in its existence, and it could be noted that N'Kari has spent much of the 'recent time' (since his last appearance) fulfilling these extraneous roles in the realms of Chaos where the Gods dwell (possibly playing a larger part in the Great Game - if anyones read the DoC book...)

That all said, if a daemon is to be bound by a mortal, then pacts have to be formed, and a small box on p18 of DoC explains how these occur: basically you need some seriously good magical protection to prevent yourself from being overwhelmed and devoured by the Daemon.

Anyway, here's what I think:

In order to bind N'Kari to the will of another, great magic potential must be used. Now, this is debatable as a Cult of Slaanesh is furthering the dark prince's desires anyway, so N'Kari might not need to be bound. However, if he is a powerful greater daemon then do we want him to be able to be included in 2000pt armies?

I was going to suggest the following rule for his inclusion:


Mighty Greater Daemon:
N'Kari is one of the more powerful Keeper of Secrets, possibly even being Slaanesh's chosen of his children. As such it takes a great wielder of magic to maintain N'Kari's existence in the mortal plain as well as to bind his essence to the will of the summoner.

N'Kari may only be used in an army that also contains a Wizard of level 3 or greater as the powerful daemon would be uncontrollable without their aid.


Use the Keeper of Secrets and don't boost any stats as theyre already pretty damned high! If a statboost is required (to differ him from other Keepers) then possibly an extra attack, WS or strength would reflect his aggressive and powerful nature.

As a wizard, N'Kari obviously displays magical ability, though I don't think this is his forte - as such I'd see N'Kari as being a level 2 Wizard, though he might know all the spells (debate?)

Abilities wise, I think that the Spirit Swallower rule is perfectly suitable for N'Kari. I don't think that Etherblade is really appropriate (or needed what with the AP attacks!) although he does have a weapon of some sort so Torment Blade could be applicable. He doesnt seem to be the alluring or seductive type either which rather rules out Temptator, Allure of Slaanesh, Enrapturing Gaze, and possibly Siren Song too (he seems like the more screamy type!), Soul Hunger sounds VERY Appropriate, as does Soporific Musk (the 7th Ed DoC version that is).

So heres how he's shaping up:


N'Kari, Despoiler of Ulthuan
Points: 750

Code:
M WS BS S T W  I A LD
10 9 0  6 6 5 10 6 9


N'Kari is a Level 2 Wizard and always uses spells from the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh.

Daemonic Gifts:
- Spirit Swallower (for every wound the daemon inflicts - after saves etc, he can regain one lost wound)
- Soul Hunger (re-roll failed wounds in 1st combat round)
- Soporific Musk (when enemy units flee, roll and extra dice and disgard the highest rolled)
- Torment Blade (enemy pass a LD test if wounded from N'Kari, if failed, they may not attack N'Kari).

Special Rules:
- Daemonic
- Large Target
- Terror
- ASF
- AP attacks
- Mighty Greater Daemon
- Nightmare Visitations
- Vengeance of Aenarion's Line

Mighty Greater Daemon:
N'Kari is one of the more powerful Keeper of Secrets, possibly even being Slaanesh's chosen of his children. As such it takes a great wielder of magic to maintain N'Kari's existence in the mortal plain as well as to bind his essence to the will of the summoner.

N'Kari may only be used in an army that also contains a Wizard of level 3 or greater as the powerful daemon would be uncontrollable without their aid.

Nightmarish Visitations
N'Kari has the ability to warp and manipulate the minds of mere mortals with ease and can visit images of horrifying, seductive or arrogant nature upon the enemy - bending their weak will to the whim of his desire.

At the end of each friendly magic phase, N'Kari can attempt to warp the minds of one enemy unit in the same way as casting a spell, though no dice are rolled and no dispel attempt is possible.

Choose one unit - friendly or enemy within 24" and Line of Sight of N'Kari. This unit must pass a Leadership Test at -3 or suffer one of the manipulations of N'Kari: these are chosen after the LD test has been failed as N'Kari works the best way to way control his prey.

Note: models immune to psychology are not affected by the Visitations as they are too strong willed or have no minds to bend!

Visitations:

1. Titilating Delusions:
Place a marker within Line of Sight of suffering unit - during the unit's following movement phase - in the 'remaining moves' part only, the unit must move as directly and quickly towards the target - if any enemy units are enountered for any reason during this move along the line of advance (ie the two units contact one another) then the Deluded unit will fight them in combat as usual.

2. Luxurious Torment:
The unit becomes subject to frenzy for the duration of that turn, in addition, while the unit is frenzied it suffers D6 S3 hits (distributed like shooting) at the start of each players turns.
However, it is possible for the unit to overcome this power. At the start of each friendly turn (to the unit) the unit must pass a Leadership test - if this is succeeded then the unit no longer suffers from Luxurious Torment.

3. Terrifying Nightmares:
The unit, upon failing its leadership test from the Nightmarish Visitations acts exactly as it had failed a panic test and will immediately flee away from N'Kari. If the unit is immune to panic then this Visitation is ignored.

Vengeance on Aenarion's Line
N'Kari seeks to end the line of Anaerion and due to his repeated failed attempts to take Ulthuan has grown a passionate hatred of all elven folk. As such N'Kari suffers Hatred towards any High Elf, Dark Elf or Wood Elf models and has Eternal Hatred (see Dark Elf army book) when fighting Tyrion, Teclis or Malekith.

Points reasoning: I basically totted up the points for a normal Keeper of Secrets with the gifts and wizard level upgrades - to balance out his ability for having more than 100pts of Gifts I introduced the Mighty Greater Daemon rule which means he'll only appear in large games of 3000pts and above, and also restricts his use to being in games where a Supreme Sorceress is on the battlefield: this has 2 implications: first, its characterful and appropriate, and second it prevents the use of 2 powerful warrior wizards being used in 3000pts: the use of Anointed - which many opponents I think would see as being rather beardy!
The Nightmarish Visitations are what makes N'Kari stand out from your bog standard Greater Daemon - much like Kairos's super magical ability or Ku'Gaths potent rock lobber rules. I placed this at about 110pts as I saw it of similar use and ability as a cauldron of blood - because I introduced the fact the ItP opponents will ignore his Visitations (it makes sense) and some armies include all ItP units, I wanted him to be able to intoxicate our own troops as well as theirs - which not only is useful but fluffy too as the Greater Daemon no doubt finds it entertaining sport to play with the minds of friends as well as foes - theyre all mere mortals in his eyes!

For the visitations I thought itd be fun to introduce a couple of old fav's from the old spell lore but try and tone them down a little: by the enemy first having to fail a LD test (at -3 so that it makes it worth attempting!) and by then dumbing the effects down a little: titilating delusions for example is one turn only - not remains in play, though if you wish to pull a unit out of the game (such as a large chaos knight unit) then keep attempting the same visitation on the unit and hope they keep failing that LD test! Although rare, this, along with the Terrifying Nightmares can be useful on friendly units - fleeing a badly positioned unit away from an enemy charge or to drag a unit away from frenzy etc. I wanted the Visitations to also work well in conjunction with other forms of Slaaneshi ability - such as The Masques dances - which can really ensure the enemy are going to keep on failing those LD tests!

Anyway, let me know the thoughts about N'Kari - I would like to bump one or two of his stats up a bit - perhaps his attacks by 1 so that he truly is a combat monster.

I finally added his hatred of all elves as his whole existence on the mortal plane (as far as GW records go) has been to sack Ulthuan and kill its inhabitants. I extended this to the fact that N'Kari is an extremely volatile and insane entity and probably would extend this hatred to elves seeking refuge in the Old World or even the Naggorth druchii who sought to pact with him to hunt Tyrion and Teclis (just because he was used by them doesnt mean he doesnt hate them ;))

So theres my thoughts - whats yours?

- Beanz

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Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:02 pm
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