With the new book finally released we could start to get talking of how to show them, that the Last Days are not yet to come. Lots of the book was known beforehand and so I think, that some of you might already have come up with ways to deal easily with the walking cans.
Of course ther's a bit of selfishness in this thread too (Druchii after all), as I have my first game against them on Sunday.
Some things I came up with after reading through the book.
1) S6 is key, wounding T4 on 2s and negating ChaosArmour
2) CoB will be worth it, to get killingblow on high A troops (WE, frenzied corsairs)
3) ASF Executioners will be great against them.
4) Hellebron anyone? (Hey that was a ryhme )
So for armylists I thought of something along the line of this (no special point limit for now but between 2k and 3k):
Invincy Dragon Lord
Hag w/ CoB
Hag BSB w/ Banner of Hag Graef
Big block of frenzied corsairs
DRs
Harpies
Big Block of (stubborn) Exes (BSB here)
COKs
Witches
2 RBT
Hydra
Your opinions? But this thread isn't especially about this armylist, it's about dealing with WoC in general.
Cheers deadly
I knew you would read this... It's all part of my great plan!
I played and wipped them last weekend.
My character setup was along the lines of what you're working on.
A lord on dragon (pendant, potion of strength and hydra blade)
Death hag bsb with cauldron (ASF banner, rune of khaine, manbane)
Caddy.
My core consisted of 3 times 5 darkriders, I lost 2 of those in the game that was my bigest loss of points.
Special, 2 times 6 Co knights, one with warbanner and ring of hotek, the other with banner of slaughter and deathpiercer.
7 shades with GW and assassin with Tof death, Rune of Khaine and dark venom (he's got to challenge...)
As rare I took a hydra.
He had nothing that could deal with the dragon.
He sacrificed a unit of knights to take my dragon away from the main battle.
I took the bait and my knights took care of the rest...
It was a walk over.
they are well balanced and easely outmanouvered if you kill their fast cavalery and dogs, so you can just dance around and take them out one by one. just beware of the characters!
I've only been playing my friend's WoC Khorne/Tzeentch army.
Control of the movement phase is, as usual, critical IMO . This involves baiting the frenzied stuff with dark riders and sacrificing units of harpies to get juicy charges. If an intact unit of Khorne Knights get to charge they'll cream whatever they can. But dark riders can't be all over the place.
Crossbowmen are great for taking down marauders, marauder horsemen and hounds. Taking down the support units, as already stated in this thread, gives the Dark Elves total control of the movement.
Cold One Knights with armour piercing are excellent anti-Chaos Warrior.
Hag BSB with standard of Hag Graef in Executioners become great can-openers.
Assassins are great for challenging Chaos characters, but you'll need to get lucky with killing blow for it to be successful. And the character mustn't have one of the two immune to killing blow armours, so this is maybe a long shot.
Magic I haven't found to be a problem. Last game I only brought 1 lvl 2 sorceress with Seal of Ghrond and the Ring of Hotek on my Cold One champ. I was enough for dispelling the critical spells (but didn't stop his lvl 4 from casting Infernal Gateway on my Executioners w/BSB ASF hag, rolling 11 for strength, with irresistable force! )
Romanes eunt domus!
Have you seen the Yellow Sign?
I haven't got to reading their book yet, but how viable is a magic-heavy setup against them? I heard that they do have a couple of items that annihilate mages (one that makes miscasts more likely and another that makes them more deadly)
They have the Infernal Puppet to adjust miscast rolls by d3, and another item to force a failed casting into a miscast, but that is one use only IIRC.
They also have a spell to hamper enemy mages casting, so all in all they can have very solid magic defense, and force some very bad miscast results for you. It can be powered through, I believe, but then it's pretty much all-in magic for you, and it's still risky business.
I had a 2,500 point game against the new WoC last night, and it was an utter massacre in my favor. We both took minimal magic lists, (1 scroll caddy and the ring for me, and 2 lvl 1's for him with scrolls and the thing that makes miscasts worse). Basically, majic played no part whatsoever in the game.
We both had heavily combat oriented lists, with my army sporting a cauldron, and his built around a war alter. (with MoT, for a stupid 3+ ward save -.-;; )
Anyway, I had 2 RBTs and one unit of crossbows, so the incentive to close was on his side. I could chill back and wait as long as I wanted.
The cauldron was absolutely the VIP of the match. Soooo effective. The hydra proved very useful, and my dreadlord on manticore proved wonderful in theory, but rolled notoriously bad all game, taking 3 turns of combat to kill 1 chaos spawn T_T;;
CoB is amazing. Give frenzied corsairs killing blow and they can cut chaos warriors to pieces. Executioners with 2 attacks and the AP banner slice through chosen with ease. Black guard with killing blow are also a lot of fun. The hydra did amazingly well, a S5 breath weapon burning entire units of marauders instantly. It even terrored a unit of chosen away! I was completely not expecting that.
I started the game out normally. RBTs and crossbows immediately started firing at marauder horsies and dogs. Shade and dark riders did the same. (Though my dark riders died on turn one when a spawn rolled an 11 for its move distance and i'd already stood and shot) As soon as the mobile chaos units were gone, the rest of the game was just playing clean up.
My harpies and shades did wonders marchblocking and redirecting, and my shades even managed to charge a sorcerer, (always give them great weapons!), but took several turns to kill him, lol. The highlight of the game was on turn 4, when I charged a large block of warriors with both my black guard and executioners, with the CoB giving the BG killing blow. Harpies positioned behind them made fleeing the charge impossible. The combined attacks of the unit killed the entire front rank and then some, and we overran into the chosen who were side charged by the shades. Some lucky killing blows and that scary +1 armor isn't that big of a deal.
Things I learned:
CoB is invaluable against them. ALWAYS TAKE IT. I shocked my opponent when my frenzied corsairs with killing blow dropped 4 chaos knights on the charge, (and then promptly being smashed to tiny bits).
RBTs are great, as always.
Executioners with the AP banner and +1 attack from the cauldron are loads of fun. -4 armor saves makes even knights afraid.
But I have to say that the biggest thing I learned was that WoC are just so susceptible to psychology. My hydra terrored a unit of chosen on turn 2. Ld 8 with no rerolls or bonuses is quite harsh.
At the end of the game, there were no chaos left on the board. I'd lost my manticore, (with the rider unscathed thanks to the pendent of hilarious invulnerability), my dark riders, one unit of harpies, and my corsairs. Complete and utter massacre for the dark elves! Huzzah!
I want to be where the stars in the sky are my footsteps...
Where every cloud is a stair leading closer to you..
I think that even with the points-drop in their foot troops, the most competitive WoC lists will be all-cavalry lists. Mauruder Horse got cheaper and can be used to fill out core slots. Chaos Knights now cause fear, which is nasty, and they all have 2 attacks. Top off the cavalry selections with a Lord on a Dragon and maybe a couple Hellcannons and you have some real nastiness. I am personally very afraid of a double-hellcannon list. Unbreakable, terror-causing stone throwers that have combat punch as well -- not the easiest thing in the world to deal with. Harpies and Dark Riders will bounce right off ...
True -- If Dark Riders make their terror test, they can charge and focus attacks on the crew. They'll ultimately break or be slaughtered from the Hellcannon's attacks, but they have a good shot at killing the crew and might tie it up for another turn and keep it from shooting. Plus I believe you get half victory points for taking out the crew. Not a job I would try to send harpies on though.
They are IMO really well balanced. Aside from all cavalry double-Cannon lists with a Dragon in it, the book offers very slim cheese-potential. I've read the book a couple of times and haven't lost a single match against them yet.
There's some interesting options in there, like the FB equivalent of Posessed (really can't recall their name) and the "beast list" but aside from that, they are really predictable.
Somehow it seems to me that GW just can't balance the Mark of Nurgle What's the most used unit in CSM? Plague Marines. What's the most used ranked infantry in Daemons of Chaos? Plaguebearers. What's the most effective Mark in the Warriors of Chaos book? Yeah, you guessed it.. The -1WS and -1BS is just ridiculous.
Our hard hitting units still break their infantry, no matter what the Mark is, mainly because of Hatred.
The ways I've found to be effective vs. the new Mortals are the same old tricks: marchblock, destroy support and shoot away rank bonus. Then crush the big, unwieldy units one at a time and earn the VP chunks in the last 2-3 turns of the game.
Master of puppets I'm pulling your strings/
Twisting your mind and smashing your dreams/
Blinded by me, you cant see a thing/
Just call my name, `cause Ill hear you scream
Don't know about magic heavy... But I have played a 1k game against 8PD if that counts for something. The small Mortal army was turned into even smaller by those casters and I am not too impressed with what the new lores can do.
Stone thrower which causes every unit under the template to take 3D6 S1 hits? Even without armour saves allowed that's not even slightly scary. I think the best spells are Nurgle and Slaanesh #1 spells: stopping marching and causing an automatic wound are nasty, although not gamebreaking.
Without shooting to support their magic and the only fast elements weak enough to be shot fast, they are just as vulnerable as always wether they had magic or not.
Master of puppets I'm pulling your strings/
Twisting your mind and smashing your dreams/
Blinded by me, you cant see a thing/
Just call my name, `cause Ill hear you scream
I faced a 2k magic heavy WoC this on wensday with my vamps (DE still in WIP)& I have to agree with Zakath, tough magic but with no shooting it really hurts them. He was throwing aleast 11-12 PD a turn & it hurt, I had geared my army to face dwarves so was light on the magic side that was the ONLY reason I lost was because I had to few D.Dice and no D.Scrolls to deal with the magic phase.
I'm ready for a rematch with my DE, I'm going magic/shooty heavy and pick his army apart. At a 2k level he only ran 1 Lv.4 Tzeench Lord,
2 Lv.2, 1 BSB, 2 units of 18-24 MoN Warriors(6 across,geared up) ,1 Unit of MoK Marauders(GW), & a ChaosAlter thing. It was a small army, but if your not prepared their magic can be your undoing.
Had another game vs mortals today. Let me just say that the infernal puppet is absolutely brutal. A complete steal at 35 points. All of my opponents miscasts were toned down heavily, and my miscasts were amplified and lethal. (rolled a 5 and he could turn it into a 2 T_T;;;; )
Beware that item. Crazy powerful. Find out who has it, and sacrifice anything to kill it.
I want to be where the stars in the sky are my footsteps...
Where every cloud is a stair leading closer to you..
I have had a similar experience against the new WoC. I played a Khainite based list with a big unit of witches, a big unit of executioners, a big unit of black guard, a unit of dark riders, 2 units of harpies, a hydra, and two units of crossbows. This was joined by a master general, a hag BSB with ASF banner, the cauldron, and a scroll caddy, and an assassin.
My opponent took two units of knights, a unit of marauder cav, two huge units of marauders, a chariot, two units of hounds, and a unit of warriors. These were led by a sorcerer lord on disk, a level 2 on disk, and an exalted in one unit of knights.
It all started turning pear shaped for him when he combo charged my executioners with assassin and BSB all of whom had an additional attack from the cauldron. I killed an entire unit of knights and ran down a marauder block from that one combat. He just could bring things to bear. With no real shooting and the ring of hotek killing his magic phase, I was free to slice his army up and then pick apart its weak underbelly in combats of my choosing.
In the end, he conceded with only a unit of knights and the exalted left, while I had given him a unit of harpies.
I can't say I've played them much with my dark elves as they're still a WIP, but from my experiences with my Empire and VC I can say to be wary of that tzeench magic. My buddy likes taking 2 sorcerers and Vilitch (tzeench super caster SC) all nudged together in 2 big units of warriors with one sorcerer having the skull of katam (every caster within 3" +1 to cast). So that basically gives them all +2 to cast..
Add that to the guy rolling 11s and 12s on Infernal Gateway about half the time makes for a nasty magic phase..
Other then that be careful with dragon ogres. They're nasty at 4 wounds a piece, but I suppose if you can get KB on them then you have nothing to worry about.
KB doesn't work on models with US > 2, I think RBTs will do the job.
I had a game againsta non-magic list with my WE last week adn I must say, I really struggled with the Chaosdragon. Finally I managed to charge him with my Treeman-Ancient but it was a fair bit of work. The majority of the rest of his army never saw more than one round of combat or CC at all.
I honestly think everything that isn't super heavy magic + 2 Hellcannons is nothing to fear for DE.
And anyone shall show me the WoC-unit that stands up to ASF 2A Exes with AP....
deadly (in the sense of the word)
I knew you would read this... It's all part of my great plan!
I'd like to add something no-one has yet addressed... Nurgle Warriors are tough! I combo charged a unit of 12 with FC and shields with my two COCs (a Master on the other) and I lost the combat by 3! Of course my impact hit rolls weren't perfect but I think that is a good example on how much punishment they can shrug off...
That, and its a lot of fun to shoot Warhounds and Marauders with RxBs
Master of puppets I'm pulling your strings/
Twisting your mind and smashing your dreams/
Blinded by me, you cant see a thing/
Just call my name, `cause Ill hear you scream
I've played two games against the WoC with the new army, with two very different lists. The first time I took a no-magic cauldron crazy combat list. The second game I took a magic heavy list.
The first game was a total and utter massacre in my favor. No chaos units left on the board by turn 5. Executioners with the AP banner and +1 attack from the cauldron... Frenzied corsairs with killing blow... Manticore dreadlord doing awesomeness... etc etc. Hatred is the best thing in the new book. That WS6 on chosen doesn't look too fierce when you can re roll everything. And the cauldron was the real VIP of the game. I charged corsairs into chaos knights, (lol), and won combat atrociously by killing 4 with killing blow. My opponent was not expecting that at all, (and neither was I to be honest, lol)
Game two went a little more poorly. I took a magic heavy list, with 8 lvls of magic vs my opponents 6. The game progressed rather well, with my magic phase doing major damage to his unit blocks. But at the end of the day, the infernal puppet ruined me. My miscasts were all horrible, lowering my levels, ending the phase, and even killing my supreme sorceress. At the end I just couldn't do enough damage to stop him from getting close. A single unit of 4 chaos knights managed to smash my executioners, black guard, and corsairs to bits over two turns. Quite depressing.
That being said, RBTs work wonders to snipe off horsemen and wolves, and crossbows are a lot of fun vs marauders, (though it seems that chaos players like the cheap MoS for marauder units).
Tzeentch magic is pretty terrifying as well. Be careful!
I want to be where the stars in the sky are my footsteps...
Where every cloud is a stair leading closer to you..
OI! the hellcannon... back in the day i would just camp shades near it and draw the damn thing out. well at least they dropped the toughness on the thing so you can send a hero on a manticore and he wont just get crotch stomped by the thing, but that is a bit excessive. a Master on a peggie can nail the crew. if he gets killed... eh, if he runs away then that's the best scenario.
They don't seem too over the top from my glances at them, and from what I'm hearing here not too many people are having trouble. Fighting against chaos should be a review of Dark Elf basics 101. Circle, shoot, flank, divide, feint, etc etc. Barely any shooting, no flying units, no skirmishers, no scouts.
Dyvim Tvar wrote:I think that even with the points-drop in their foot troops, the most competitive WoC lists will be all-cavalry lists. Mauruder Horse got cheaper and can be used to fill out core slots. Chaos Knights now cause fear, which is nasty, and they all have 2 attacks. Top off the cavalry selections with a Lord on a Dragon and maybe a couple Hellcannons and you have some real nastiness. I am personally very afraid of a double-hellcannon list. Unbreakable, terror-causing stone throwers that have combat punch as well -- not the easiest thing in the world to deal with. Harpies and Dark Riders will bounce right off ...
Pretty much my view of the book as well.
They will also get a bit nastier as more lists get released.
Few lists will be able to cause as much panic as they can with the hellcannons, doom totem and Daemonic Splendor. As more 7th armies edition that are released that can be paniced these will start to be very powerful and iikely common parts of the army.
Take all of my posts, when taking about balance, from a perspective of an all-comers list.
)
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What's the most used unit in CSM? Plague Marines. What's the most used ranked infantry in Daemons of Chaos? Plaguebearers. What's the most effective Mark in the Warriors of Chaos book? Yeah, you guessed it.. The -1WS and -1BS is just ridiculous.
