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The Cult of Slaanesh - Army list entries (rules) 
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ARMY LIST ENTRIES SUMMARY

GENERAL ARMY RULES:

- The Army General must be Supreme Sorceress, or a Sorceress if no Supreme Sorceress is present (even if they do not have the highest Leadership in the army). The Army General must have the Mark of Slaanesh.

UNIT SPECIAL RULES:

Mark of Slaanesh

Character and units with MoS are immune to Fear, Terror and Panic. They can still use ‘flee’ charge reaction and be subject to Eternal Hatred, Stupidity or other psychology rules. They also are affected by rules that leave out models with Immune to Psychology rule.


Mere Mortals

Fleeing and/or broken Marauder units don't cause panic in Dark Elf units.


_______________________________

ARMY LIST
_______________________________


LORDS

Supreme Sorceress - 225 pts.
Stats as pr. the 7th ed. Dark Elf armybook

Magic : 3rd lvl. wizard with spells from one of the following Lores: Dark Magic, Fire, Shadow, Metal, or Death.
If the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh, she must use either Lore of Slaanesh or the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh.

Equipment :
Hand Weapon

Special Rules :
Eternal Hatred, Druchii Sorcery

Options :
- Mark of Slaanesh: +5 pts.

Magic
- Upgrade to 4th lvl.: +35 pts.

Mount (one choice only)
- Dark Steed: +18 pts.
- Cold One: +30 pts.
- Dark Pegasus: +50 pts.
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +25 pts.
- *Serpent of Slaanesh: +40 pts.
*Available as mount, only if the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh.

Magic Items :
Appropriate items* up to a total of 100 pts
*list(/s) to be discussed later

_______________________________


HEROES

Sorceress - 100 pts.
Stats as pr. the 7th ed. Dark Elf armybook

Magic : 1st lvl. wizard with spells from one of the following Lores: Dark Magic, Fire, Shadow, Metal, or Death.
If the Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh, she must use the Lore of Slaanesh.

Equipment :
Hand Weapon

Special Rules :
Eternal Hatred, Druchii Sorcery

Options :
- Mark of Slaanesh: +5 pts.

Magic
- Upgrade to 2nd lvl.: +35 pts.

Mount (one choice only)
- Dark Steed: +12 pts.
- Cold One: +20 pts.
- Dark Pegasus: +50 pts.
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +17 pts.
*Available as mount, only if the Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh.

Magic Items :
Appropriate items* up to a total of 50 pts
*list(/s) to be discussed later

_______________________________


Master - 80 pts.
Stats as pr. the 7th ed. Dark Elf armybook

Equipment :
Hand Weapon

Special Rules :
Eternal Hatred

Options:
- Mark of Slaanesh: +5 pts.
- If marked, may be BSB for +25 pts; you may only have one BSB in the army.
- If marked, up to one Master, per unit of Devoted in the army, may be upgraded to Exalted at +50/65* pts.
Quote:
This upgrade provides the following changes to the Master:
# Gains +1 A*
# Gains AHW and the Narcotic Fumes , and Quickening Blood chaos gifts.
# May not take any additional mundane equipment, nor any kinds of magical armour or ranged weapons.
# May only be mounted on a Steed Of Slaanesh (can use an AHW despite being mounted)

*has 1 more Attack than Devoted Champion, so exact bonus/price to be decided later


Close Combat Weapon (one choice only):
- Lance +4 pts
- GW +4 pts
- AHW +4 pts

Ranged Weapon (one choice only):
- Repeater crossbow +10 pts
- Repeater handbow +8 pts
- Pair of RHB +16 pts

Armour:
- LA* +2 pts
- HA* +4 pts
- Shield +2 pts
* May not choose both

Mount (one choice only)
- Dark Steed: +12 pts.
- Cold One: +20 pts.
- Dark Pegasus: +50 pts.
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +17 pts.
*Available as mount, only if Master has a Mark of Slaanesh.

Magic Items :
Appropriate items* up to a total of 50 pts.
*list(/s) to be discussed later

_______________________________

Character Mounts


Serpent of Slaanesh
M10|WS4|BS0|S4|T4|W3|I5|A2|Ld8

Special Rules:
Daemonic




_______________________________


CORE


Dark Elf Warriors - 7 pts.
stats as pr. in the 7th ed DE Army Book

Unit size: 10+

Equipment: Hand Weapon, Spear, Light Armour

Special Rules: Eternal Hatred

Options:
- Any unit may have Mark of Slaanesh: +10 pts
- SB may carry a Magic Banner up to 25 pts

Command:
Lordling - 6 pts
Musican - 3 pts
SB - 6 pts

Weapons (one choice only):
May replace Spears with Repeater Handbows - 1 pts
May replace Spears with Repeater Crossbows - 4 pts

Armour:
Shield - 1 pts


Marauders - 4 pts
stats as pr. in the 7th ed WoC Army Book

Unit size: 10+

Equipment: Hand Weapon

Special Rules: Mere Mortals, Will of Chaos

Options:
- Any unit may have Mark of Slaanesh: +10 pts

Command:
Champion - 8 pts
Musican - 4 pts
SB - 8 pts

Weapons (one choice only) :
Flails - 2 pts
Great Weapons - 2 pt

Armour:
Light Armour - 1 pt
Shield - 1 pt


_______________________________


SPECIAL


Dark Riders - 17 pts.
stats as pr. in the 7th ed DE Army Book

Unit size: 5+

Equipment: Hand Weapon, Spear, Light Armour

Special Rules: Eternal Hatred, Fast Cavalry (unless equipped with shields)

Options:
- Any unit may have Mark of Slaanesh: +10 pts

Command:
Herald - 14 pts
Musican - 7 pts
SB - 14 pts

Weapons:
Repeater Crossbows - 5 pts

Armour:
Shield - 1 pts


#########################
Yet to do:

Druchii part

CORE
Devoted of Slaanesh

SPECIAL
Shades
Cold One Knights of Slaanesh

RARE
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Effigy of Excess



Daemons part

LORDS
Keeper of Secrets

HEROES
Herald of Slaanesh

CORE
Daemonettes of Slaanesh
Furies

SPECIAL
Seekers of Slaanesh

RARE
Fiend of Slaanesh



Mortals part

LORDS
Anointed

HEROES
Marauder Warlord

CORE
Marauder Horsemen

SPECIAL
Chaos Warriors of Slaanesh

RARE
Chaos Knights of Slaanesh
Spawn of Slaanesh


#######################
END OF SUMMARY


____________________________________________
____________________________________________


Ok, as mentioned in 'Vision' topic, I think detailed rules discussion could also benefit from structuralisation. So what I propose is discussing Army List entries on a ‘one at a time’ basis. As for sequence of discussed entries, aside from usual:

Lord/Hero/Core/Special/Rare


I’d divide them in three ‘origin’ parts (simply worknames for needs of discussion, don’t think last one sounds well, but it's short and we know what’s it about):

- Druchii
- Daemons
- Mortals (I include Anointed in this one, he fits Druchii part as well fluff-wise, but this division is more about rules, and IMO proposed ‘Warband’ rule means it’s better to discuss him here)


So, we could start with Druchii Lord (SS), go down from there and when we finish Druchii Rare we move to either Daemon Lord (KoS) or Mortal Lord (Anointed).

We could include part of the general army rules at the start of the ‘origin’ part that concern them (where they involve two or more – like unit joining or summoning daemons - leave them rather for Daemon & Mortals).



I’d want such division and order (start with Druchii part) for three reasons:

- Don’t know about you guys, but I could use some rest from discussing Daemon Summoning, Anointed’s Warband and other general rules we introduce rather than update.

- I believe the Druchii choices are – by most part – the easiest part to do now, and I think faster advance of work would be a nice change. ;)

- The last of the Druchii choices, OTOH is Effigy of Excess, which I think is the single choice in need of biggest work ATM.



So the order I propose would go:

[Edit: list moved to the summary at the beginning of this post]



I am aware that something (Spawn most probably) may be left out and some choices can go in other slot in final version. This is only for order of discussion, so I'd wait with discussing such issues till we get to the entry in question.

Also, some units may need discussing in connection to some other, but I think we can work that out as we progress by simply leaving them for later, should such need arise.




Two more propositions on formal side of this discussion:

1. Let's keep proposed rules/variants thereof visibly separate (be it by color, italics or whatever) from comments on them, just to keep things clear and easier to read.

2.As all three of us (current main posters) seem to have inclination for long posts, please do your best to keep your posts short; I promise I will. ;)



-----------------------------

Ok, so I’ll start:

DRUCHII PART

General Rules:

- The Army General must be Supreme Sorceress, or a Sorceress if no Supreme Sorceress is present (even if they do not have the highest Leadership in the army). The Army General must have the Mark of Slaanesh.

- Some models in the army may/must have Mark of Slaanesh.


Mark of Slaanesh

Character and units with MoS are immune to Fear, Terror and Panic. They can still use ‘flee’ charge reaction and be subject to Eternal Hatred, Stupidity or other psychology rules. They also are affected by rules that leave out models with Immune to Psychology rule.

The first sentence of MoS description describes how it works in WoC and I believe we can keep it as it is. The rest are just conlusions from that and main rules, which I’d include for clarity.




-------------------------------------

And here goes the first entry:



LORDS

SUPREME SORCERESS
<As in 7th ed DE AB except following:>
- May have Mark of Slaanesh (+ 5 pts).
- May ride either a Dark Steed, a Cold One or a Dark Pegasus. If marked may also ride a Steed of Slaanesh (+25 pts).
- If marked has access to, and must use, Lore of Slaanesh.
- Has access to Common and Druchii Magic Items; if marked can also choose from Slaaneshi Magic Items.


So:
- she looses option of riding Manticore and Dragon;
- MoS and SoS cost based on WoC AB;
- as mentioned in previous discussion, I don't think giving her access to Daemon Lore of Slaanesh is needed balance-wise and I do think it's problematic from background POV



Waiting for comments. :)


Last edited by Weenth on Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.



Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:18 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:34 pm
Posts: 192
Location: Denmark
No objection to your suggested structure.


Weenth wrote:
DRUCHII PART

General Rules:

- The Army General must be Supreme Sorceress, or a Sorceress if no Supreme Sorceress is present (even if they do not have the highest Leadership in the army). The Army General must have the Mark of Slaanesh.


No objections. I'd argue that this one is a must.


Weenth wrote:
- Some models in the army may/must have Mark of Slaanesh.


Agreed. Some units should come with the Mark, and some units should have the option to have it.



Weenth wrote:
Mark of Slaanesh

Character and units with MoS are immune to Fear, Terror and Panic. They can still use ‘flee’ charge reaction and be subject to Eternal Hatred, Stupidity or other psychology rules. They also are affected by rules that leave out models with Immune to Psychology rule.

The first sentence of MoS description describes how it works in WoC and I believe we can keep it as it is. The rest are just conclusions from that and main rules, which I’d include for clarity.


Agreed. No reason to go against the general rules on this one. Overall I'd argue that the new version is an improvement on the old Immune to Psychology rules. The inability to Flee (or Withdraw as I prefer to call it when it's voluntary) never sat well with me anyway, and it really cramped my playing style.


Weenth wrote:
And here goes the first entry:


LORDS

SUPREME SORCERESS
<As in 7th ed DE AB except following:>
- May have Mark of Slaanesh (+ 5 pts).
- May ride either a Dark Steed, a Cold One or a Dark Pegasus. If marked may also ride a Steed of Slaanesh (+25 pts).
- If marked has access to, and must use, Lore of Slaanesh.
- Has access to Common and Druchii Magic Items; if marked can also choose from Slaaneshi Magic Items.


So:
- she looses option of riding Manticore and Dragon;
- MoS and SoS cost based on WoC AB;
- as mentioned in previous discussion, I don't think giving her access to Daemon Lore of Slaanesh is needed balance-wise and I do think it's problematic from background POV


- No objection on the loss of Manticore and Dragon. They don't fit the fluff for the Cult IMO.

- MoS fine.

- With regards to the Daemonic Steed VS. the old Steed of Slaanesh, I'd actually much prefer to keep the 6th ed. Steed of Slaanesh (aka. the boobworm). I'd prefer this because I believe that it will help differentiate the Cult a tiny bit from the generic Chaos army with a Slaanesh focus. I don't believe that the old rules are a problem. Also, I believe that the fluff description for the Steed of Slaanesh in the 6th ed. Chaos book is more fitting than the one for Daemonic Mounts from the 7th ed. Warriors of Chaos book. I believe that GW made an OK decision with regards to the new book, but I also believe that the change from the god specific daemonic mounts to the generic one was done to support the approach that most Chaos armies include worshipers of several of the different Chaos Powers. With the Cult, the worship is focused on Slaanesh, and hence I believe that this fact too justifies sticking with the 6th ed. version of the Steed.

- Rgd. the magical items access, I believe that we should make up a Cult magic list that includes a number of new Cult specific items, as well as select Druchii and Chaos (Warriors & Daemonic gift) ones. But other than that, the outright Slaanesh/Chaos items should only be available to characters with the MoS.

- With regards to Magic Lore access, then unmarked (Supreme) Sorceress's should have the normal Druchii Lore access. Marked ones should have to use one of the Lores of Slaanesh.
While I agree that the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh might be Daemonic specific at the moment, I don't see a real problem with giving the Supreme Sorceress (and the Anointed) access to this particular lore. I'd almost prefer to give the Cult Sorceresses access to the Daemonic Lore over the "regular" Lore of Slaanesh, since I believe that this would help differentiate the Cult Sorceress a little from the regular Chaos Sorcerer. Also, as I view it, a Cult sorceress might well have bargained magical lore from a Daemon, and thus have gained access to the Daemonic Lore. Giving the Supreme Sorceress access to both the Daemonic and regular Lore of Slaanesh, would also help to differentiate the Hero and Lord lvl. Sorceress a little more. Add to the fluff that the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh is harder to use than the regular Lore of Slaanesh, and you have an (in my opinion at least) additional bit of fluff that underlines that the Cult Supreme Sorceress is a more than ordinarily skilled magic user. Giving the Supreme Sorceress access to the Daemonic Lore, but not the regular Sorceress, also further underpins that there is a difference between the Hero and Lord level Sorceress.
Basically I think that we can gain a lot more in terms of fluff by allowing access to the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh, than we do by simply letting that lore be Daemon army exclusive.


/Kyrel


Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:56 pm
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Kyrel wrote:
- With regards to the Daemonic Steed VS. the old Steed of Slaanesh, I'd actually much prefer to keep the 6th ed. Steed of Slaanesh (aka. the boobworm). I'd prefer this because I believe that it will help differentiate the Cult a tiny bit from the generic Chaos army with a Slaanesh focus. I don't believe that the old rules are a problem. Also, I believe that the fluff description for the Steed of Slaanesh in the 6th ed. Chaos book is more fitting than the one for Daemonic Mounts from the 7th ed. Warriors of Chaos book. I believe that GW made an OK decision with regards to the new book, but I also believe that the change from the god specific daemonic mounts to the generic one was done to support the approach that most Chaos armies include worshipers of several of the different Chaos Powers. With the Cult, the worship is focused on Slaanesh, and hence I believe that this fact too justifies sticking with the 6th ed. version of the Steed.


I personally love the boobworm and definetly want it to stay, I'd suggest leave in the steed of slaanesh as the thing that seekers ride on, and then use the 6th edition rules for the boobworm but change its name to "Serpent Of Slaanesh". Problem solved.

Kyrel wrote:
- Rgd. the magical items access, I believe that we should make up a Cult magic list that includes a number of new Cult specific items, as well as select Druchii and Chaos (Warriors & Daemonic gift) ones.


I had the idea for this earlier, and if you have a look in the gifts and items section you can see some of the stuff I cam up with, but Weenth objected to it on a similar basis as he objected to a new magic lore, we already have 3 books worth of stuff, so we should concentrate on just cutting out what should go and then we'll still have plenty left rather than focussing on trying to come up with our own stuff, so the issue was dropped.

Kyrel wrote:
- With regards to Magic Lore access, then unmarked (Supreme) Sorceress's should have the normal Druchii Lore access. Marked ones should have to use one of the Lores of Slaanesh.
While I agree that the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh might be Daemonic specific at the moment, I don't see a real problem with giving the Supreme Sorceress (and the Anointed) access to this particular lore. I'd almost prefer to give the Cult Sorceresses access to the Daemonic Lore over the "regular" Lore of Slaanesh, since I believe that this would help differentiate the Cult Sorceress a little from the regular Chaos Sorcerer. Also, as I view it, a Cult sorceress might well have bargained magical lore from a Daemon, and thus have gained access to the Daemonic Lore. Giving the Supreme Sorceress access to both the Daemonic and regular Lore of Slaanesh, would also help to differentiate the Hero and Lord lvl. Sorceress a little more. Add to the fluff that the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh is harder to use than the regular Lore of Slaanesh, and you have an (in my opinion at least) additional bit of fluff that underlines that the Cult Supreme Sorceress is a more than ordinarily skilled magic user. Giving the Supreme Sorceress access to the Daemonic Lore, but not the regular Sorceress, also further underpins that there is a difference between the Hero and Lord level Sorceress.
Basically I think that we can gain a lot more in terms of fluff by allowing access to the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh, than we do by simply letting that lore be Daemon army exclusive.


I could go either way here. I see the reasoning and am fine if that is what's going to happen. Also don't mind if it doesn't. Don't see any reason not for it to not be that way. Otherwise, SS should be as Weenth said.

MA

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Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:38 am
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MartialArtist wrote:
I personally love the boobworm and definetly want it to stay, I'd suggest leave in the steed of slaanesh as the thing that seekers ride on, and then use the 6th edition rules for the boobworm but change its name to "Serpent Of Slaanesh". Problem solved.
I also like that solution. Rule-wise poses no problem and bonus is we also get 'Lord only' mount to differ a bit from Hero choices.

I could be a bit problematic fluff-wise (as in: 'why CoS army gets in and DoS and WoC don't?')

IMO solution would be easy for Anointed:

- Serpent would be a gift given only to his most devoted and formost mortal followers; so: Anointed's a unique follower -> he get's a unique mount choice

- This would be harder with SS IMO - they are not as old and as devoted followers (esp with elven view of worshiping); so I'd leave Serpent to Anointed only

- Also, Herald shouldn't get it (rule-wise: he's a here; fluff-wise: as it's a daemon, it's really hard to explain new option not present in DoC)

Kyrel wrote:
- Rgd. the magical items access, I believe that we should make up a Cult magic list that includes a number of new Cult specific items, as well as select Druchii and Chaos (Warriors & Daemonic gift) ones.
MartialArtist wrote:
I had the idea for this earlier, and if you have a look in the gifts and items section you can see some of the stuff I cam up with, but Weenth objected to it on a similar basis as he objected to a new magic lore, we already have 3 books worth of stuff, so we should concentrate on just cutting out what should go and then we'll still have plenty left rather than focussing on trying to come up with our own stuff, so the issue was dropped.
What MA said. If an item fits I see no reason to leave it out; with unfitting items out, we still get enough of them in total; so new items should IMO only be included as to fill a hole after specific item (like Banner of Naggaroth -> 'the main, costy BSB banner'); Anyway, I'd move discussion on this to 'Magic Items' topic, to move on here.

Kyrel wrote:
I'd almost prefer to give the Cult Sorceresses access to the Daemonic Lore over the "regular" Lore of Slaanesh, since I believe that this would help differentiate the Cult Sorceress a little from the regular Chaos Sorcerer. Also, as I view it, a Cult sorceress might well have bargained magical lore from a Daemon, and thus have gained access to the Daemonic Lore. Giving the Supreme Sorceress access to both the Daemonic and regular Lore of Slaanesh, would also help to differentiate the Hero and Lord lvl. Sorceress a little more. Add to the fluff that the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh is harder to use than the regular Lore of Slaanesh, and you have an (in my opinion at least) additional bit of fluff that underlines that the Cult Supreme Sorceress is a more than ordinarily skilled magic user. Giving the Supreme Sorceress access to the Daemonic Lore, but not the regular Sorceress, also further underpins that there is a difference between the Hero and Lord level Sorceress.
Basically I think that we can gain a lot more in terms of fluff by allowing access to the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh, than we do by simply letting that lore be Daemon army exclusive.
- I think the gain is more in 'coolnes/variety' aspect, but otherwise I agree, it's clearly there.

- The fluff aspect is IMO where work rather than benefit comes, but the idea you've given is perfectly doable (even Dark Magic Spells descriptions show that some spell-effects are rather by the 'hands' of the daemons than Sorceress herself).

- Not sure I got your POV clear on SS & regular Lore, Kyrel. As we make regular Lore of Slaanesh 'the easier one' fluff-wise, no reason to remove it from SS (also gives her some choice over hero spell-caster), so it's:

- If marked has access to Lore of Slaanesh and Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh. She must use one of these two.

, is it?

- I'd also leave it for SS only; Anointed is 2nd level Sorcerer at max, and as such I don't think he should get it (though probably better to disscuss that when we get to his entry ;) ).




Side note - though I doubt giving DLoS to SS changes much in that aspect, it's worth noting that one thing dubious about 6th CoS list (according to posters on other forums) was magic-heavy list balance. The reasoning was that 6th ed LoS was arguably best lore in game and Sorceresses got +1 to cast it on top of that.

As all Dark Magic and Lore of Slaanesh (now in 2 versions) got changed this doesn't need to be the problem now. Or to put it otherwise: I believe CoS magic-heavy list might be a bit on the powerful side, but not moreso than regular DE magic-heavy list.

The best way to check that would probably to playtest such two forces against each other.

I think we could make a separate 'playtesting' topic, where the first post would summary the exact issues to be tested out, with effects of playtesting in further posts. What do you think about it?


Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:21 am
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Boobworm:
Boobworm is a keeper then, although with another name...
I don't really see a reason to limit the worm to only the Anointed, as I simply view it as a Daemonic Steed Slaanesh variant. I agree that some WoC players might rise questions about why we get to keep it when they loose it, but I don't consider that to be a problem, since 1) it's a different army, and 2) the Chaos armies in 7th ed. are all mixed by default, and for that reason GW elected to make some of the daemonic mounts generic rather than God specific.

Magical Items:
Again, I haven't really looked at the "item" thread in any detail yet, and I'd prefer to leave that for a little later. But as default I agree that we should look at the existing items and start with them. Depending on how many we consider to be suitable, we can then see if we can come up with something new and interesting to supplement it. But let's take that in another thread.

Magic Lores:
Weenth: I mixed together two different thoughts rgd. the magic lore access, hence I can follow why it might have confused a little.

Options:
A) Both regular and Daemonic Slaanesh Lore is available to both Marked Hero and Lord lvl. Sorceresses.

B) Regular Slaanesh Lore is available to both Hero and Lord Sorceress, Daemonic Lore only to SS.

C) Only regular Slaanesh Lore is available to Hero and Lord Sorceresses, but the Anointed gets to use the Daemonic Lore, since he's arguably closer to the Daemonic realms than the Sorceresses can ever get.


The more I think of it, the more tempted I am to say that I'd go with option C), combined with an item that could grant a Sorceress access to the Daemonic Lore. Perhaps a Tome or familiar of some sort in the Arcane selection.

Max. magic army composition:
I doubt that this will be a greater problem than it is/can be with the regular Dark Elf army, or most other magic heavy armies. At the end of the day the Druchii no longer get the +1 to cast, and some aspects of the Slaanesh spells have been changed. But it should be play tested, as we instead now have the Druchii Sorcery rule and the Power of Darkness spell.

Playtesting
Agreed. That one needs a topic on its own as well.


Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:22 am
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I think "the worm" (can it be officially from here on be named the Serpent Of Slaanesh?) should be available to whoever it is appropriate for (eg. SS).

I'd probably go with a combined b) and c) like this:

Supreme Sorc and Anointed: Dark Magic, Daemon Slaanesh (SS if marked), Mortal Slaanesh (SS if marked).

Sorc: Dark Magic, Mortal Slaanesh (if marked)

That's just how I'd do it anyway.

MA

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Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:15 am
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Serpent of Slaanesh

1. I do like this name, and am in for keeping it.

2. Background wise:

- I do agree that as 'Slaanesh specific army' CoS might get 'Slaanesh specific DM'.

- DoC doesn't get Daemonic Mount, so Herald shouldn't get access to Serpent, leaving it as a mortal follower's mount


3. Rule-wise:

- DM, although S&T5, is a 1W mount; Serpent is a 3W monster

- still, I'd rather have him at 3W - this way he can be shot under from Anointed, who would be IMO too powerfull on regular DM.

- I would like to have wider set of mount for Lords than for Heroes (like most ABs, including DE do), so I'd limit Serpent to Lords only (SS and Anointed) and then give both Lords and Heroes access to SoS.



Magic Lores

1. This, as said makes problem on background level only, still that's IMO an important aspect to take care of.

Situation from this POV, the way I see it is:

- Daemonic Lore are powers only posessed/given to daemons

- DE Sorceresses use Dark Magic, which is - as descriptions of spells show - sometimes asking/making daemon to do the job, rather than producing effect by Sorceress herself

- So it may be argued that by asking Slaaneshii daemons, one could get them to 'make' daemonic spell effect for Sorceress.

- We might assume (if it fits our needs) that this would be harder than general Dark Magic, and so is only available to more adept (3/4 Lvl)


Conclusion: From this, we either give DLoS to all marked DE spellcasters, or SS only


As for possible difference with Anointed in this regard:

- The magical powers Slaanesh grants upon his mortal followers are different to those he gives to his daemons.

- We might argue that more powerful followers, as being closer to daemonhood, could get access to DLoS

- This would however mean, that 4lvl Sorcerer of Chaos has more reason to get it than 2lvl Anointed; yet he doesn't get it.


- I'd also argue that as more resistant to physical change and, as an elf, probably aware of the fact that being a daemon means loosing free will in a way, Anointed is rather far from becoming a daemon.



Conclusion: Anointed is more of a Slaaneshi Chaos Champion/Sorcerer than the DE Sorceress, so in a way, is closer than her on the path to daemonhood. Still, as background reason for DLoS access is superb skill with commanding daemons (as practiced by all DE spell-casters) rather than direct use of power (like Chaos Sorcerers do) I'd rather not let him have it.
He's IMO also farther from daemon realms than human Chaos Sorcerers



So: B and A are IMO ok from fluff-perspective and B makes most sense balance-wise.


Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:11 pm
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OK. Let's keep the Daemonic Lore as Supreme Sorceress only.

As for the nature of the Anointed, and what lore he should have, I suggest that we continue the discussion in that regard, when we turn our focus on him in earnest.

The Supreme Sorceress thus ends up looking like:

Supreme Sorceress - 225 pts.
Stats as pr. the 7th ed. Dark Elf armybook

Magic: 3rd lvl. wizard with spells from one of the following Lores: Dark Magic, Fire, Shadow, Metal, or Death.
If the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh, she additionally gets access to the Lore of Slaanesh, and the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh.

Equipment:
Hand Weapon

Special Rules:
Eternal Hatred, Druchii Sorcery

Options:
Magic
- Upgrade to 4th lvl.: +35 pts.

Mount (one choice only)
- Dark Steed: +18 pts.
- Cold One: +30 pts.
- Dark Pegasus: +50 pts.
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +30 pts.
- *Serpent of Slaanesh: +40 pts.
*Available as mount, only if the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh.

Magic Items:
Up to a total of 100 pts. chosen from the *Cult magical items list.
*Cult list includes all of the items that we decide should be available to the Cult, regardless of source. The item descriptions themselves can specify if the user needs a MoS or not.


Question:
Should a Supreme Sorceress with a MoS possibly have access to some sort of Daemonic Gifts (i.e. Daemonic Robes, Master of Sorcery, Soporific Musk, Narcotic Fumes etc.), with their cost drawn from the Magic Item allowance?

/Kyrel


Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:00 pm
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Kyrel wrote:
If the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh, she additionally gets access to the Lore of Slaanesh, and the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh.
Since both 6th ed CoS and 7th ed WoC go with 'Mark enforces lore' rule, I'd keep in line with that, so would rather have:

If the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh, she gets access to the Lore of Slaanesh and the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh and must use one of these two.


Kyrel wrote:
Mount (one choice only)
- Dark Steed: +18 pts.
- Cold One: +30 pts.*
- Dark Pegasus: +50 pts.
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +30 pts.
- *Serpent of Slaanesh: +40 pts.
*Available as mount, only if the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh.
SoS is 25 in both DoC and WoC, also for Lord choices. Do you think we should upper that? If so, for what reason? IMO it should stay at 25 as SS won't benefit from it more than Chaos Lord does.


Kyrel wrote:
Magic Items:
Up to a total of 100 pts. chosen from the *Cult magical items list.
*Cult list includes all of the items that we decide should be available to the Cult, regardless of source. The item descriptions themselves can specify if the user needs a MoS or not.[/color]
I believe we should have two MI lists, as different characters (like MW and SS) should have access to different sets, but let's leave that for Magic Item thread. Would:
100 pts of items from appropriate Cult list/s be ok for now?


Kyrel wrote:
Question:
Should a Supreme Sorceress with a MoS possibly have access to some sort of Daemonic Gifts (i.e. Daemonic Robes, Master of Sorcery, Soporific Musk, Narcotic Fumes etc.), with their cost drawn from the Magic Item allowance?
I'd say she shouldn't:
- she wasn't allowed them in 6th ed
- she's not a Slaanesh Champion, the way MW and Anointed are
- would make Anointed less original


* Aside note: CO on SS or Sorceress is hardly worth it's points, as its stupidity interferes with her spellcasting; still, 30 pts is the cost in DE AB, so I'd rather keep it.

How about we make a separate list (in a separate thread?) of "Suggested house rules"? We could put there any changes which we want to apply both to regular DE and CoS in order to balance them a bit more. A kind of optional, 'unofficial errata' for those who want to use it. Three changes I have now in my mind are:


- Make CO for SS and Sorceress cheaper -> to make it a valid choice despite stupidity on spell-caster

- Restrict use of Pendant of Khaleth to unarmoured models only -> to remove 'unkillable anointed/dreadlord' combo

- Give shades max unit size, so 5-10 or 5-15 -> to cut down 'shades deathstar' tactics


Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:57 pm
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Okay, so can we try and finalize something here.

Final SS rules (pending confirmation)

Supreme Sorceress - 225 pts.
Stats as pr. the 7th ed. Dark Elf armybook

Magic : 3rd lvl. wizard with spells from one of the following Lores: Dark Magic, Fire, Shadow, Metal, or Death.
If the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh, she additionally gets access to the Lore of Slaanesh, and the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh. (i'd prefer to keep it this way as I'd really like for Cult players to mark most/all of their Sorcs, but this would be a less attractive option if it limited them to only 1/2 lores of magic.)

Equipment :
Hand Weapon

Special Rules :
Eternal Hatred, Druchii Sorcery, Cult Leader (ie. must be general if present and no Morathi?)

Options :
Magic
- Upgrade to 4th lvl.: +35 pts.

Mount (one choice only)
- Dark Steed: +18 pts.
- Cold One: +30 pts.
- Dark Pegasus: +50 pts.
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +25 pts.
- *Serpent of Slaanesh: +40 pts.
*Available as mount, only if the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh.

Magic Items :
Up to a total of 100 pts. chosen from the Common, DE and if marked Mortal magical items list.
(Let's just say for now that the magic section is split into Common, DE derived items, Mortal derived items, Daemonic gifts and daemonic icons.)

How's that for final rules to be included? I'm happy, and if you guys agree this'll be the way it is in my rules.

One last thing: if included the "binding" rules that have sort of disappeared may also need to appear under "Special Rules". Will be discussed and added later if nessecary. For the moment though I think what I have is all that is needed and with a little note on the binding rules we can now move onto the next thing, is it the Anointed?

Also, since I already have the rules all set up, when a new army list entry is discussed I will just put what I have up and then it can be discussed and modified, as at the moment i've got basically what I think the options should be.

So, Anointed

[color=#]Druchii Anointed 210 points

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Anointed 5 8 7 5 3 3 9 5 9

Equipment: Hand weapon
Chaos Armour

Special Rules: Eternal Hatred
Slaanesh’s Favour (the 5+ Ward)
Mark Of Slaanesh

Magic: An Anointed that is a Level 1 or 2 Wizard may use spells from the Mortal Lore of Slaanesh or Dark Magic.

Options:
• May be upgraded to a Level 1 Wizard 50 points
• If a Level 1, may be upgraded to a Level 2 Wizard 35 points
• May take one close combat weapon:
o Lance (if mounted) 10 points
o Great Weapon 10 points
o Halberd 6 points
o Additional Hand Weapon 6 points
• May take one ranged weapon:
o Repeater Crossbow 10 points
o Repeater Handbow 8 points
o Pair of Repeater Handbows 16 points
• May also carry a Shield 3 points
• May ride upon a mount:
o Dark Steed 18 points
o Barded Chaos Steed 24 points
o Steed Of Slaanesh 25 points
o Cold One 30 points
o Serpent Of Slaanesh 40 points
• May take magic items from the Common, Dark Elf Up to 75 points
and Slaaneshi magic lists
• May also take Daemonic Gifts Up to 50 p
oints
[/color]

And Weenth, those corrections are coming soonish....

MA

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Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:37 am
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MartialArtist wrote:
(i'd prefer to keep it this way as I'd really like for Cult players to mark most/all of their Sorcs, but this would be a less attractive option if it limited them to only 1/2 lores of magic.)
I'd insisit on keeping the 'if markad can&must use LoS/DLoS':

- as said, keeps in line with both 6th ed CoS/HoC and 7th ed WoC

- makes marking a SS/Sorceress a real choice rather than no-brainer. This way player has to choose if he preferes: broader lore choice OR unique lore(/s) and inclusion of daemonic unitsnot: both, if he can spare those 5 pts.

(BTW in 2000 about half Sorceresses in the army - as one would take 1-3 I guess, with 2 being average - is already marked by default due to general's rules)


MartialArtist wrote:
Eternal Hatred, Druchii Sorcery, Cult Leader (ie. must be general if present and no Morathi?)
- I'd rather keep requirements for general as part of 'Army special rules', makes it clearer to put one short sentence there, than one/two sentences at both SS and Sorceress entry.
- Also, IMO named special rules are for in-battle effect rather than army composition part.

Still, this one is not about rules themselves but clarity of final document rather, so IMO we can leave it whatever way for now, and discuss after finalizing the list as well.


Binding/Summoning rules
Not forgotten. ;) Simply I think regardless if we go for both, one of these or none, I'd rather leave it for discussing with the Daemon part of the army - allows us to get through easier parts (DE units) first.


Anointed
For same reason, as already mentioned, I'd leave Anointed to discuss with Mortal part of the army; I think he will require much discussion (unlike Sorceress and Master). Though if you guys are inclined to do him now despite of that, it's ok with me.


@MA - Waiting for corrections, thanks for taking time on them. :)

[Edit reason: Removed comment on 4/5th ed; I checked the books, and it was wrong - Chaos Sorcerers could choose Patron or Dark magic Lore back then]


Last edited by Weenth on Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:41 am
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Let's leave the Anointed alone for now.

I must admit that I find it a little strange that a (Supreme) Sorceress should loose her access to the usual Lores, because she has a MoS, but I can live with that. I would like a suggestion on how we would defend this, from a fluff PoV.

Binding/Summoning:
As Weenth says, let's return to this one when we get to the Daemons.

Steed of Slaanesh:
Weenth. You asked why I'd put the Steed down for +30 pts. The reason was that I compared it with the Cold One, and gave it a bit of thought. Basically I think that the Steed is significantly better than the Cold One (which is significantly overpriced IMO). Higher speed. Reliability (no Stupidity). Better Initiative. Poisoned Attack. And then I didn't look at the cost for the Steed of Slaanesh in the other books. Now, I'm perfectly happy to put the Steed in at +25 pts. But I would suggest that we at some point have a look at some of the different point values (probably during play testing). It's fine that we take the values we have from the various books as a starting point, but we should remember that at the end of the day, all of the final point values should be adjusted to fit within the individual army.


Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:53 pm
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Kyrel wrote:
I must admit that I find it a little strange that a (Supreme) Sorceress should loose her access to the usual Lores, because she has a MoS, but I can live with that. I would like a suggestion on how we would defend this, from a fluff PoV.
Well, marked Chaos Sorcerers loose access to rulebook lores (same as DE I think), WoC doesn't explain this directly, but from background it gives, it can be IMO assumed that once Chaos Sorcerer embraces power of pure Chaos Magic, he no longer uses 'cantrips' Elves taught to humans; I'd go with this and assume that a Sorceress that goes as far as embracing a Chaos God won't lower herself to less powerfull kind of magic.

With such background however, we should allow also Dark Magic to marked SS/Sorceress, as it also pure Chaos Magic, simply one that human Sorcerers never embrace.

Should we want to forbid Dark Magic on SS/S we can include the idea that Slaanesh would see his follower using any other power than coming directly from him as a disgrace; Personally I think both ways would be ok.


Steed of Slaanesh:

- agreed that we need playtesting to check if everything works and is rightly priced

- my problem (well, I believe problem for most DE players) with CO as a mount for Sorceress is I think it's worth less than a Dark Steed in this context, while costing more; so it's an underdog choice in both DE and CoS, no matter how we price SoS. :(


Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:50 pm
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Weenth wrote:
- my problem (well, I believe problem for most DE players) with CO as a mount for Sorceress is I think it's worth less than a Dark Steed in this context, while costing more; so it's an underdog choice in both DE and CoS, no matter how we price SoS. :(


Heh. Too true. I don't suppose that we can put a negative value on the Cold One, so that the player is compensated for the handicap he takes, by putting a character on a Dumb O...Sorry. Cold One ;)


As for the issue of the Lore access, then I suppose that we can limit the access to the (Daemonic) Lore of Slaanesh for Marked Sorceresses. I'm tempted to say that we should consider leaving the option for Dark Magic open as well, in order to leave the player with a bit of choice, but I suppose that it's defendable to say that if the Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh, then it's because she's devoted herself to what is represented by Slaanesh, and hence her preference in magic will also reflect this choice.

Fu*k it. Marked Sorceresses get the option of Slaanesh Lore only.


/Kyrel


Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:43 am
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Ok, so I believe two of us agree that the following would be ok:


- The army general must be SS with Mark of Slaanesh; if she's not present, then the general must be marked Sorceress.

Supreme Sorceress - 225 pts.
Stats as pr. the 7th ed. Dark Elf armybook

Magic : 3rd lvl. wizard with spells from one of the following Lores: Dark Magic, Fire, Shadow, Metal, or Death.
If the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh, she must use either Lore of Slaanesh or the Daemonic Lore of Slaanesh.

Equipment :
Hand Weapon

Special Rules :
Eternal Hatred, Druchii Sorcery

Options :
- Mark of Slaanesh: +5 pts.

Magic
- Upgrade to 4th lvl.: +35 pts.

Mount (one choice only)
- Dark Steed: +18 pts.
- Cold One: +30 pts.
- Dark Pegasus: +50 pts.
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +25 pts.
- *Serpent of Slaanesh: +40 pts.
*Available as mount, only if the Supreme Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh.

Magic Items :
Appropriate items* up to a total of 100 pts
*list(/s) to be discussed later


MA, do you agree on such version? BTW, check your PM. ;)


Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:07 pm
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It would appear that MartialArtist has gone on vacation from the site. Should we proceed with the regular Sorceress? Given the previous debate on the SS, she should be easy to do, agreed?


Sorceress - 100 pts.
Stats as pr. the 7th ed. Dark Elf armybook

Magic : 1st lvl. wizard with spells from one of the following Lores: Dark Magic, Fire, Shadow, Metal, or Death.
If the Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh, she must use the Lore of Slaanesh.

Equipment :
Hand Weapon

Special Rules :
Eternal Hatred, Druchii Sorcery

Options :
- Mark of Slaanesh: +5 pts.

Magic
- Upgrade to 2nd lvl.: +35 pts.

Mount (one choice only)
- Dark Steed: +12 pts.
- Cold One: +20 pts.
- Dark Pegasus: +50 pts.
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +18 pts.
*Available as mount, only if the Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh.

Magic Items :
Appropriate items* up to a total of 50 pts
*list(/s) to be discussed later



One thing I considered, and which we can debate later on, is whether we should possibly give a slight "discount" on the Sorceress and Supreme Sorceress, compared with the regular Dark Elf army. My reasoning being that the Sorceresses play a more important and predominant role in the Cult army, than they do in the regular Dark Elf armies. Note that I'm not talking about a significant reduction in pts., but perhaps something like 5-10 pts. on the base cost, or 25 pts. for the lvl. upgrade, rather than the regular 35 pts. A slight reduction in the upgrade cost would promote a more aggressive magic phase, and also signify the increased importance of the Sorceresses in the Cult, as compared with the other characters. It could possibly be combined with a slight pts. increase in the Master and possibly also the Anointed. Again I'm talking something in the 5-10 pts. range only.


/Kyrel


Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:45 pm
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Another thought I had, was whether we should consider including access to the Dreadlord in the Lord segment, so as to give the Cult access to a Lord level fighter type character, besides the Anointed. If the Cult is not supposed to be "illegal" following the F&B campaign, then I don't think that it would be unrealistic that a Dreadlord could have allegiance with the Cult. Like the Anointed, however, he should still not be able to be the General of the army.

Any thoughts on this idea?


/Kyrel


Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:50 pm
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Kyrel wrote:
It would appear that MartialArtist has gone on vacation from the site. Should we proceed with the regular Sorceress? Given the previous debate on the SS, she should be easy to do, agreed?
I've e-mailed MA asking when he'll be back; hope it'll be soon. In the meantime I agree we can move to Sorceress; she indeed has a chance to go for 'least discussed entry' prize. ;)

Kyrel wrote:
Sorceress
[...]
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +18 pts.
*Available as mount, only if the Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh.
So instead of keeping 'flat cost' of SoS (like in WoC) we would rather follow more common scheme of different mount PV for lord/hero choices? I think it's a good idea. Would only make that 17 pts, as general scheme, as far as I can see is: Lord price - 3x, Hero price - 2x.


Characters' cost:

1.I'd rather not make SS/Sorceress even a bit cheaper. I feel that DE magic is already damn good, and seeing that CoS Sorceresses have even wider lore choice it would be cheesy to do that.

I do agree that SS/S should play prominet role, but I'd rather solve it in other ways (slots, options, additional rules, etc), as I see PV as means for game balance rather than fluff-theming.

The ways to do it can IMO be:
- proposed conditioning inclusion/number of daemonic units on SS/S
- keeping SS/S as only general choice
- making Effigy of Excess a 'mount' for SS/S rather than separate unit

I believe these are enough, though am open to other ideas also.


2. I believe Master is not a very attractive choice ATM, so am against upping his cost. Anointed, OTOH needs a price rise simply not to make him underpriced (took some time comparing him to both Dreadlord and Chaos Lord; wanted to leave this for Anointed entry discussion, just signaling the issue).


Introducing new characters to CoS list:

1. Dreadlord - I'd rather leave him out; I believe we already have plenty of character choices, so IMO ATM it's not so much 'what can be reasoned' but rather 'what would be necessary addition'.
Rule-wise he doesn't bring much in, as Anointed plays similar role; Fluff-wise, he can be left out also.

[Edit:I think we could make up a SC Dreadlord for use in our campaign only, as unit choices would be more restricted for the scenarios there than the CoS list in general]


2.Devoted Hero - Now, this one has been discussed a longer while ago, seems to me the consensus now is to leave her out; mentioning this just to make sure.

My thoughts on her:

- rule-wise is similar both to unarmoured Master and Daemonic Herald, so doesn't introduce much to the list in this aspect

- Main idea behind 'vanilla DE battle-chick' (Death Hag) was, I believe, to allow fielding her with cauldron; if we make EoE a character option, I'd rather have it for SS/S only, makes much more sense fluff-wise.

- Also, seeing that fluff-wise Death Hags are leaders of CoK (no, not the Knights ;) ) and their god is one devoted to warfare I think among 'druchii cultists' part of the CoS list there shouldn't be as powerful CC-character, leaving Mistresses the most 'hitty' among Devoted (single more powerful SC would be ok, but not a regular hero choice IMO).


Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:37 pm
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I was never away, sorry for the lack of posting lately (and I know its caused a halt on the project, if it happens again just keep going and I'll have to catch up when I have more time), had heaps of unanticipated stuff happening.

The above proposed SS seems fine (now I agree that making mark = forced lores makes more of a choice about Marking or not, specially if we add some stuff later that the mark gives extra bonuses that have to be weighed against lore availability), I'll change my rules to fit to that.

Also, Kyrel, possibly an overlook in your Sorc rules, shouldn't lore access be, "if Sorceress has the Mark Of Slaanesh she must use either the Lore Of Slaanesh or Daemonic Lore Of Slaanesh"? Or was it currently that Sorc's didn't get the Daemonic option (I'm a little lost here)?

Dreadlord can probably stay out.

I think Effigy should be a separate choice to the Sorc. Unless maybe it was something like a floating mini-temple that she could preach from and see better for throwing spells around and stuff (sort of like a slower Disc Of Tzeenth, but that would be much different to Cauldron idea with guardians and stuff). So I think Effigy should be separate, unless it was something like what I said (or my idea could be a separate Cult-unique thing, but that will probably get outvoted pretty quickly because of "we've got enough already" and that's fair enough).

Weenth, that story editing WILL come, sometime.....

MA

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Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:58 am
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MartialArtist wrote:
I was never away, sorry for the lack of posting lately (and I know its caused a halt on the project, if it happens again just keep going and I'll have to catch up when I have more time), had heaps of unanticipated stuff happening.
Ok, it happens; I myself have a lot of other stuff over nearest three days, so I know very well what's it like. Anyway, thanks for posting. ;)


MartialArtist wrote:
Also, Kyrel, possibly an overlook in your Sorc rules, shouldn't lore access be, "if Sorceress has the Mark Of Slaanesh she must use either the Lore Of Slaanesh or Daemonic Lore Of Slaanesh"? Or was it currently that Sorc's didn't get the Daemonic option (I'm a little lost here)?
The way I got it, Sorceress doesn't get access to DLoS to differate her and SS and make the latter a more attractive choice (otherwise, with PoD & no dice limit, taking 2x2Lvl and leaving lord slot for Anointed might be much more popular). Fluff-wise we put it that DLoS is harder to use, so only most powerful can master it.


About EoE - I'm not commenting now, to keep character discussion on track; though I do see pros and cons in both 'rare unit' and 'character mount' options; would like to get back to that issue when we get to EoE entry.


MartialArtist wrote:
Weenth, that story editing WILL come, sometime...
Ok, no problem; waiting patiently. :)


Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:27 am
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Weenth wrote:
Kyrel wrote:
Sorceress
[...]
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +18 pts.
*Available as mount, only if the Sorceress has a Mark of Slaanesh.
So instead of keeping 'flat cost' of SoS (like in WoC) we would rather follow more common scheme of different mount PV for lord/hero choices? I think it's a good idea. Would only make that 17 pts, as general scheme, as far as I can see is: Lord price - 3x, Hero price - 2x.


No objections to 17 pts. on my part. Done.


Weenth wrote:
Characters' cost:

1.I'd rather not make SS/Sorceress even a bit cheaper. I feel that DE magic is already damn good, and seeing that CoS Sorceresses have even wider lore choice it would be cheesy to do that.

I do agree that SS/S should play prominet role, but I'd rather solve it in other ways (slots, options, additional rules, etc), as I see PV as means for game balance rather than fluff-theming.

The ways to do it can IMO be:
- proposed conditioning inclusion/number of daemonic units on SS/S
- keeping SS/S as only general choice
- making Effigy of Excess a 'mount' for SS/S rather than separate unit

I believe these are enough, though am open to other ideas also.


My idea was mainly a stray thought I threw up for discussion, rather than something that I'll fight tooth and nail over. We agree that the Druchii Sorceresses are pretty good, and from a balance PoV changes to her PV isn't necessary. That was also the reason why I wrote that I would only suggest changes in the 5-10 pts. range, as I would see such a change in character PV as largely irrelevant from a balance perspective, but rather as having a signal value, which was what I was going for. I've no problem leaving it alone for the time being. If nothing else, we can try out a couple of different values during playtesting.


Weenth wrote:
2. I believe Master is not a very attractive choice ATM, so am against upping his cost. Anointed, OTOH needs a price rise simply not to make him underpriced (took some time comparing him to both Dreadlord and Chaos Lord; wanted to leave this for Anointed entry discussion, just signaling the issue).


We'll get back to the Anointed later on. As for upping the cost of the Master, I'd only want to do that when combined with a similar slight cost reduction in the S/SS. Again purely for signal value. If we don't want to toy with the cost of the Sorceresses, then we should leave the Master alone as well.

Weenth wrote:
Introducing new characters to CoS list:

1. Dreadlord - I'd rather leave him out; I believe we already have plenty of character choices, so IMO ATM it's not so much 'what can be reasoned' but rather 'what would be necessary addition'.
Rule-wise he doesn't bring much in, as Anointed plays similar role; Fluff-wise, he can be left out also.

[Edit:I think we could make up a SC Dreadlord for use in our campaign only, as unit choices would be more restricted for the scenarios there than the CoS list in general]


Yep. The Anointed plays a similar role, and hence the Dreadlord strictly speaking isn't necessary to have as well. I think that this is where our approach to this project differs a little though, because personally I don't really give a damned whether the army needs to have access to the Dreadlord or not. I'll agree that the army doesn't need him, but I'll also argue that I can see good fluff based reasons for allowing access to him. And for that reason I'd allow him. It would also allow the army to field a Lord lvl. combat character, without having to go for the Anointed, whom there are only supposed to be a very limited number of in the first place.

As for the qty. of character options we have so far, I don't really see it as a problem either way.

Anyway, we can return to the issue at a later point, if we find the energy.

Weenth wrote:
2.Devoted Hero - Now, this one has been discussed a longer while ago, seems to me the consensus now is to leave her out; mentioning this just to make sure.

My thoughts on her:

- rule-wise is similar both to unarmoured Master and Daemonic Herald, so doesn't introduce much to the list in this aspect

- Main idea behind 'vanilla DE battle-chick' (Death Hag) was, I believe, to allow fielding her with cauldron; if we make EoE a character option, I'd rather have it for SS/S only, makes much more sense fluff-wise.

- Also, seeing that fluff-wise Death Hags are leaders of CoK (no, not the Knights ;) ) and their god is one devoted to warfare I think among 'druchii cultists' part of the CoS list there shouldn't be as powerful CC-character, leaving Mistresses the most 'hitty' among Devoted (single more powerful SC would be ok, but not a regular hero choice IMO).


I don't really have a problem with having or not having a Devoted hero. The easiest way to get around it would really be to allow a Master to take the Narcotic Fumes and Speed of Slaanesh options, if he takes a MoS. That way we get the option of a Devoted styled Hero option, but without adding another character entry. The state should also be about right as they are.
Alternatively we could "package" the needed bonuses into a single "Devoted of Slaanesh" option that requires a MoS, and which includes the Narcotic Fumes and +1A at a given cost.
I don't think that the list needs another Hero option, but I see no problem in adding the additional options to the Master. But we can take this up again when we get to him.


Anyway, I take it that with the modification of the pts. cost for the Steed of Slaanesh, we are in agreement on the final look of the Sorceress. Sorceress closed?


/Kyrel


P.S.
MA, I'm in agreement with Weenth on the Daemon Lore issue for the Hero Sorceress. She doesn't get access to it. So far only the SS gets to take it. (I think that Weenth and I disagree on the issue, when it comes to the Anointed, but we'll take that up when we get to him ;) ).


Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:36 pm
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On character PV - even 5-10 pts does make a difference in small battles (like 500 pts); I know I am biased in that aspect, as I play such sized forces probably more often than most players - mainly the Border Patrol scenarios. Still, would my sorceress be 10 pts cheaper I could afford to field a 'naked' level 2 (max 125 pts limit for a single model); while my WE opponent can also do that, his 2lvl is not as good; I believe with current lvl 1 with a bit points for a single item on my side it comes out even.


That aside, I firmly believe that PV is for balance purpose solely. While this may mean same character/item's cost may vary depending on context I deeply dislike changing it purely on fluff reasons. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh - trying not to; this one touches rules design 'ideology' in itself, so is quite an important thing for me. ;)



On number of character choices
Kyrel wrote:
As for the qty. of character options we have so far, I don't really see it as a problem either way.
I think this is to what goes down the difference in our POV on introducing Dreadlord.

I'd like to keep number of entries in line with other similiar/partialy used ABs. Looking at them, there are: (Lord choices+Hero choices=Total character choices)

Old SoC:3+3=6
DE: 2+3=5
HE: 2+3=5
WE: 3+3=6
WoC: 3+2=5
DoC: 5+4=9

- WE & old SoC get 1 more than other elves; this I think has its source in the mixed character of these lists (elves+forest spirits/elves+mortals+daemons).

- DoC has quite a big choice of characters, but compared to other armies characters, each of them gets little choice in options:
* set of only 9-10 gifts to choose from for each GD, 6-8 for each Herald
* no mount option for GDs, 1 for each Herald
* no other equipement options


Now, our new SoC:
- combines 3 forces (rather than 2, like WE)
- 3 of its characters (KoS, Herald, MW) have limited availability

So IMO it's ok that we get 7 character choices; As we have also plenty of unit choices I think further characters should have good reason to get into the list.


Still, having said that, on rule-level I have nothing against 'devoted skill pack' option for master.

I dislike it for fluff reasons, as already metioned - I think superb skilled warriors should be harder to find among pleasure god's cultist than among war god's cultists (and Death Hags are rather rare, leader-level personaes fluff-wise).



Anyway, I think we can start discussing Master?

Master - 80 pts.
Stats as pr. the 7th ed. Dark Elf armybook

Equipment :
Hand Weapon

Special Rules :
Eternal Hatred

Options:
- Mark of Slaanesh: +5 pts.
- If marked, may be BSB for +25 pts; you may only have one BSB in the army.


Close Combat Weapon (one choice only):
- Lance +4 pts
- GW +4 pts
- Halberd +4 pts
- AHW +4 pts

Ranged Weapon (one choice only):
- Repeater crossbow +10 pts
- Repeater handbow +8 pts
- Pair of RHB +16 pts

Armour:
- LA* +2 pts
- HA* +4 pts
- Shield +2 pts
* May not choose both

Mount (one choice only)
- Dark Steed: +12 pts.
- Cold One: +20 pts.
- Dark Pegasus: +50 pts.
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +18 pts.
*Available as mount, only if Master has a Mark of Slaanesh.

Magic Items :
Appropriate items* up to a total of 50 pts
*list(/s) to be discussed later


- in 6th ed Noble could take Chaos armour, but I think fluff-wise it makes little sense; such an individual couldn't survive as hidden cultist; also you'd think that seeing what Slaanesh is about, he'd give less unremovable armour to his cultists, so I'd leave Chaos Armour for Anointed and Mortals.


Now, as said, I'd leave devoted out of this, but if you see fluff-reason to introduce 'devoted skill pack' for a hero, I'd make it this way:

- if marked may be Chosen of Slaanesh for 45(50?) pts

Chosen of Slaanesh (or whatever better name you come up with)
* gets Narcotic Fumes and Quickening Blood chaos gifts
* comes equipped with AHW
* may not take any additional mundane equipement
* may not use any form of magic armour or magical ranged weapons


- QB and Speed of Slaanesh work exactly the same way, so I'd rather have one name for them; personaly I'm for QB, as it sounds better to me

- Cost is 45 = NF(30) + QB(25) + AHW (4) - 14 pts discount for restrictions in weapons/armour (DH gets discount of about 9-14 pts + whatever the worth of Khainite rule is)


Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:36 pm
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Weenth. I see your point on the small pts. battle level. To be honest, I hadn't considered that angle, as I have only ever ONCE played a 500 pts. battle, and frankly I didn't find it very fun. On the other hand, during 4th/5th ed., the smallest game I ever played was 3500 pts. *LOL*, and since 6th ed. I've mainly played games in the 2-3000 pts. range. And in that range, I don't find that 5-10 pts. make much of a difference either way.

Weenth wrote:
That aside, I firmly believe that PV is for balance purpose solely. While this may mean same character/item's cost may vary depending on context I deeply dislike changing it purely on fluff reasons. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh - trying not to; this one touches rules design 'ideology' in itself, so is quite an important thing for me. ;)


I have to admit that we differ on this issue, because IMO the point values also play a part in defining the armies with respect to the fluff. Just look at the DE Warriors. Given their stats and equipment, when compared with the other races, they are presently underpriced IMO. But within the context of the army they are priced pretty much where they ought to be, at least if you would want anyone to actually bring them on to the table. I'd be willing to put money on a bet that GW reduced the cost of the Warriors because they were never taken by the players, and because this is in stark contrast with the fluff for the DE army. (And economics probably also played a part, but that's another issue...).
Anyway, I don't think that we will come to an agreement on this anytime soon, so let's just leave it alone for the time being. If we at some point can get more people involved in a debate on the issue, then we can take it up again, but until then (or at least until play testing) let's just leave the issue and point values alone.


Adding additional characters
This isn't a real big issue for me, but I'll add that to me it's of less importance to keep to a particular number of character options, than it is that the army options and performance fit in with the fluff for the army.

I'd like to include the Dreadlord for fluff reasons, since I believe that he fits into the list, especially if people would like to represent a post F&B time army.

Let's agree that there is no reason to add an actual Devoted Hero to the rooster, but let's have a quick look at the option for a "Devoted upgrade" for the Master, for those people, that might want to build to a specific Devoted theme in the army. When MA has time to join in the debate again, we can make the final decision as to whether we want to add the option or not.


Weenth wrote:
Anyway, I think we can start discussing Master?

Master - 80 pts.
Stats as pr. the 7th ed. Dark Elf armybook

Equipment :
Hand Weapon

Special Rules :
Eternal Hatred

Options:
- Mark of Slaanesh: +5 pts.
- If marked, may be BSB for +25 pts; you may only have one BSB in the army.

Close Combat Weapon (one choice only):
- Lance +4 pts
- GW +4 pts
- Halberd +4 pts
- AHW +4 pts

Ranged Weapon (one choice only):
- Repeater crossbow +10 pts
- Repeater handbow +8 pts
- Pair of RHB +16 pts

Armour:
- LA* +2 pts
- HA* +4 pts
- Shield +2 pts
* May not choose both

Mount (one choice only)
- Dark Steed: +12 pts.
- Cold One: +20 pts.
- Dark Pegasus: +50 pts.
- *Steed of Slaanesh: +18 pts.
*Available as mount, only if Master has a Mark of Slaanesh.

Magic Items :
Appropriate items* up to a total of 50 pts
*list(/s) to be discussed later


- in 6th ed Noble could take Chaos armour, but I think fluff-wise it makes little sense; such an individual couldn't survive as hidden cultist; also you'd think that seeing what Slaanesh is about, he'd give less unremovable armour to his cultists, so I'd leave Chaos Armour for Anointed and Mortals.


1) I'd remove the Halberd option, as the Cult army doesn't have access to the Black Guard, and hence I find that option to be out of character for the army.
2) From a pure "feel" PoV, I'd consider leaving out the option for the Great Weapon as well, since I find it to be out of character for a Cult army, but from a rules/balance perspective, I believe that we should probably let the option stay.
3) Chaos Armour. Basically I have no real problem letting a Master have access to Chaos Armour, but we can leave it out of the standard options. I'll insist that a Master with a MoS get access to any possibly fitting magical Chaos Armour type armours that we might end up putting in the magical items list though. We can argue that Chaos Armour, even magical one, seals the wearer inside it on a permanent basis, but if you read the description of the armour in the WoC armybook, there is actually nothing to suggest that this is the case. Chaos Warriors and Chosen end up being sealed in the armour, but that is due to the actions of the Chaos Gods, not because of some property of the armour itself. We can then argue if it's fitting to include Chaos Armour at all, since the suits are made by the Chaos Dwarfs, but if we limit the access to magical Chaos Armour, then I don't see a problem in defending it.

Weenth wrote:
Now, as said, I'd leave devoted out of this, but if you see fluff-reason to introduce 'devoted skill pack' for a hero, I'd make it this way:

- if marked may be Chosen of Slaanesh for 45(50?) pts

Chosen of Slaanesh (or whatever better name you come up with)
* gets Narcotic Fumes and Quickening Blood chaos gifts
* comes equipped with AHW
* may not take any additional mundane equipment
* may not use any form of magic armour or magical ranged weapons


- QB and Speed of Slaanesh work exactly the same way, so I'd rather have one name for them; personaly I'm for QB, as it sounds better to me

- Cost is 45 = NF(30) + QB(25) + AHW (4) - 14 pts discount for restrictions in weapons/armour (DH gets discount of about 9-14 pts + whatever the worth of Khainite rule is)


I'd simply call the upgrade Devoted or Devoted High Mistress.
As for the rules I'd suggest:

Devoted High Mistress - +45 pts.
*Gets Narcotic Fumes, +1A, Additional Hand Weapon
*May additionally take Quickening Blood at +25 pts.
*Loose access to all armour and shields, including magical variants.
*Loose access to all alternate equipment options.
*Must be fielded as part of a Devoted Unit, which (s)he cannot leave during the battle.


Basically a slightly bigger upgrade, but also an additional downside for people to consider.
The extra Attack I'd add because otherwise the Master will have the same number of Attacks as the Champion, and this I don't find would be right.


/Kyrel


Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:27 am
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I'd probs go for Weenth's Devoted Mistress idea, but with the +1A of Kyrel. So, like this (I've renamed it too, High Mistress maybe not appropriate as we said not all Devoted stipulated to be female):

Slaaneshi Gifted (maybe not the best name, i'll see if I can think of anything else)
* Only one Master may be upgraded to Gifted for every unit of Devoted in the army. A Gifted Master must have the Mark Of Slaanesh.
* gets Narcotic Fumes and Quickening Blood chaos gifts
* gains +1A on profile
* comes equipped with AHW
* may not take any additional mundane equipement
* may not use any form of magic armour or magical ranged weapons
* may only be mounted on a Steed Of Slaanesh


And that all comes for 50 points (probably best to just keep it simple).

I added a little restriction to it, and seeing as Devoted will have some sort of compulsory rules then it'll usually be an option, but just makes sure that no one goes for a "Gifted Triad" without some devoted to allow them fitting in, and without forcing the master to be chained to a unit.

Otherwise, do Masters not get a Serpent Of Slaanesh choice? I understand if that's to be lord only.

MA

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Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:18 am
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Kyrel wrote:
I have to admit that we differ on this issue, because IMO the point values also play a part in defining the armies with respect to the fluff. Just look at the DE Warriors. Given their stats and equipment, when compared with the other races, they are presently underpriced IMO. But within the context of the army they are priced pretty much where they ought to be, at least if you would want anyone to actually bring them on to the table. I'd be willing to put money on a bet that GW reduced the cost of the Warriors because they were never taken by the players, and because this is in stark contrast with the fluff for the DE army. (And economics probably also played a part, but that's another issue...).
Anyway, I don't think that we will come to an agreement on this anytime soon, so let's just leave it alone for the time being. If we at some point can get more people involved in a debate on the issue, then we can take it up again, but until then (or at least until play testing) let's just leave the issue and point values alone.
Ok, agreed.


Side note: Whatever view on PV issue, I'd rather leave Warriors out of that discussion, as their cost is for both fluff and rules; Gav does gives a balance-reason for such pricing (facing HE spearmen; he doesn't mention making them a useable choice, but that is a balance reason as well IMO)... so I'd say their case is the problem of execution rather than idea behind it; anyway, it'd be probably better to discuss that when we get to Warriors entry (which should be soon hopefuly ;) ).



Master

1. Serpent of Slaanesh - yes, I'd leave that for Lords only; otherwise we have no unique 'Lord only' mounts and most armies (including DE) do get them.


2. Halberd - CoS has access to Halberd on Chaos Warriors, but that speaks for Anointed equipement options rather than Master. Rule-wise I'm ok with removing this option, but from fluff perspective (rules also) its IMO perfectly ok to leave it also; it's not like Halberd is BG exclusive, just like not every DE using 2HW is an Executioner.


3. Great Weapon - we might remove either Halberd or GW, but if we remove both, our Master would be really cut down on the options. Personally would leave them both.


4. Chaos Armour:

a) Rule-wise:
- Master should have full access to magical armour (so including ChA ones)
- could have (but doesn't need) access to 'mundane' Chaos armour.

b) Fluff-wise:
- older fluff mentions that ChA is unremovable in many places, it also shows it as a gift directly from Chaos Gods; The Chaos Dwarf part is new (didn't appear before WoC AFAIK). I think we can assume that some of Chaos Armours are removable.
- as regular DE have access to unremovable magic armour (AoES), I'd reason it's ok for few other individuals to also have one.

Conlusion: I think no regular ChA option, but still having access to magical ones is ok.


Master's Devoted upgrade

1. I think QB should be obligatory in the pack:

- I see Mistress as a step between regular Devoted and High Mistress*

- Since more 'advanced' Mistresses get QB, HM should have it obligatory

- I'd rather avoid 'bonus-layers' (you buy a bouns, that gives you an option of buying a bouns, etc.), just to keep it simple

*I'll use this name for now, but would like a sex-independent name for final version rather; as MA has mentioned, unlike Witches, not all Devoted must female. Still, with my knowlege of english and 'Devoted' & 'Anointed' already taken, I haven't got any good idea ATM; guess it's more a matter of finding a proper name for Devoted Champion, as hero upgrade can then be 'High xxxx' or 'Exalted xxxx'.


2. I think HM should be able to leave units:

- do like idea of leting her mount SoS

- a character in devoted unit almost always benefits from NF anyway, so no need for special pack for that


3. On No. of Attack:

- IMO hero can have same number of attacks as champion (other higher stats are still a bonus), but am also perfectly ok with hero having +1 A over champ

- don't want hero to have +2 A over champ

- I believe Devoted champion should have 2 A (+1 for AHW) in the first place; still, this belongs to Devoted discussion rather than here.

So my proposition for this moment: let's make 2 versions of the pack for now, and decide upon one of them when we get to Devoted.


A)* Only one Master may be upgraded to Gifted for every unit of Devoted in the army. A Gifted Master must have the Mark Of Slaanesh.
* gets Narcotic Fumes and Quickening Blood chaos gifts
* comes equipped with AHW
* may not take any additional mundane equipement
* may not use any form of magic armour or magical ranged weapons
* may only be mounted on a Steed Of Slaanesh; can use AHW when mounted*

B) As above and +1A on profile


*As mounted characters cannot normally use AHW she'd need a special rule for that; I'd say 5 pts for that is enough.


Point costs would be:

A) NF (30) + QB (25) + AHW* (9) - discount (14) = 50

B) above (50) + 1A (15) = 65





Dreadlord
Kyrel wrote:
I'd like to include the Dreadlord for fluff reasons, since I believe that he fits into the list, especially if people would like to represent a post F&B time army.
Ok, seeing as MA is also here, I'd discuss that one further, so we can finish druchii character entries.

My POV is we cannot include everything that can be fitted fluff-wise into the list. Otherwise we should probably include:

Post F&B:
- Corsairs
- Hydra
- Dragon
* even CoC and Black Guard, could be argued

SoC(pre-F&B):
- spell-casting character for Marauders (Shaman/Warlock)
- Slaaneshii Chaos Warshrines
- Chosen Slaanesh Warriors
- Forsaken
* other WoC choices could also be argued

Anytime:
- Daemonic Chariot option for Herald


Now, it's clear to me that from armylist-design POV including all those would be far over the top, so there is need of making choices.

As for Dreadlord in particular:

- Doesn't bring anything new rule-wise

- While fitable with ease (in post F&B-fluff), he's not essential fluff-wise

- In-pre F&B fluff he doesn't fit, so that would need additional restriction: /You cannot field Dreadlord and either Anointed or any Chaos Mortals units/characters in the same force/

Summing up - IMO it's much complication about little gain and brings our list farther from how official armylists look; I stay at: as a character in campaign - ok; as part of main list - not ok.


Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:12 pm
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