What unit do you consider to be the hardest in the game?

Blackfel · Post by **Blackfel** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:19 am

After reading some of the posts about the Daemons of Chaos list, and the survivability of the Plaguebearers led by a Herald of Nurgle, some friends of mine and I sat down for a session of Theoryhammer that led to a semi-argument over what army has the hardest hitting unit in the game. We weren't able to come up with a solid answer, because we all tend to judge relative strength based on our own experiences, but some of the units we DID throw into the ring were just plain nasty. So what I'd like to ask the community at large is, "What unit do you consider to be the hardest in the game?"

In order to keep it fair, we limited the units to having a single character leading the unit in question, otherwise you tend to end up with "units" of 25 Ironbreakers with the General, the Battle Standard Bearer, and two Thanes on the front rank. Try to keep the unit "realistic" (i.e., something you might actually field in a real game.) Otherwise, the sky's the limit.

The two that I put into the ring were a unit of Bretonnian Grail Knights led by either a tooled-up lord or the Battle Standard Bearer with the Banner of the Lady, or a unit of Grave Guard led by the Battle Standard Bearer using the Drakenhof Banner.

One of my friends feels that a unit of Chaos Chosen with the Mark of Nurgle, led by a tooled up lord and carrying the Banner of Rage is the gold standard, but he's biased because he plays Chaos.

So what do you guys think? Which unit do you feel deserves the trophy for being the most powerful in the game?

Blackfel

Aspiring executioner · Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:42 am

For me it easily has to be the Blood Knights led by a Vampire BSB with Drakenhof Banner and Flag of Blood Keep for the unit standard. Incredibly hard to shoot down unless with a flaming cannonball and even then 50/50 chance of surviving that. Also have incredible amounts of S7 attacks and a lot of S4 attacks thrown in too. Only two downsides exist with them, one they are one of the most expensive units in the game and two they are able to be led around with their frenzy.

Post by **Layne** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:09 am

Indeed, their stats make them powerful, but Frenzy renders them almost powerless.

Cold One Knights with BSB and Hydra Banner is pretty nasty, and not so accident prone... though still somewhat clumsy at times. That's about as hard as we Dark Elves get. With just the one character in, anyways.

Perhaps we should work this out on an army-by-army basis?

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:49 pm

Star dragon
because it's not only very good, but can also fly; to me, the main thing that makes dragons/greater daemons so good is that in addition to good stats they havve incredibly good manoeuvrability.

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:08 pm

Star dragon
because it's not only very good, but can also fly; to me, the main thing that makes dragons/greater daemons so good is that in addition to good stats they havve incredibly good manoeuvrability.

I agree.

I'd also add

- bloodthirster with S7 reroll all and antimagic armour
- Flamers
- salamanders

Lord Veshnakar · Post by **Lord Veshnakar** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:37 pm

20 Black Guard full command with the banner of Hag Graef, a champion carrying crimson death, led by a dreadlord with the executioners axe.

Incredibly nasty.

Sinzaren · Post by **Sinzaren** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:40 pm

Last real game I played I came up against a 25 ish strong unit of Templeguard led by 3 Slaan mages, didnt matter what I threw at it it just bounced.

Left it alone in the end and killed everything else

Blackfel · Post by **Blackfel** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:07 pm

To me, there are two things that keep the Cold One Knights from truly being in the running for "hardest unit": Toughness 3 and Stupidity. That isn't to say they aren't effective, but with those two liabilities they really fall down my personal chart.

Now, how about a unit of Dragon Princes using the Standard of Balance, led by a Battle Standard Bearer with the Battle Banner? Has many of the advantages of the Cold One Knights, while eliminating Stupidity. They're still Toughness 3, but the combat results generated by having the Battle Banner on the Battle Standard Bearer in the unit makes them a very solid unit.

Riker666 · Post by **Riker666** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:51 pm

Flamers. Good AB, lots of hits, skirmish, m6, s5 in hth and difficult to shoot down due to t4, skirmish, f2 and the ws5+.

Master of arneim · Post by **Master of arneim** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:22 pm

20 Black Guard full command with the banner of Hag Graef, a champion carrying crimson death, led by a dreadlord with the executioners axe.

Incredibly nasty.

Why? You already have the answer in your own avatar

Highborn on black dragon · Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:08 pm

Block of Plaguebearers with BSB Herald of Nurgle with the item that makes you strike last even if you strike first.

Blackfel · Post by **Blackfel** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:17 pm

The problem that I have with the Plaguebearers led by the Herald of Nurgle is that you almost have to rely on static combat results to win battles for you, because Plaguebearers have only one attack each at Strength 4. Mind you, poison mitigates this somewhat, and the Herald goes a long way as well (3 Strength 5 poisoned attacks + 6 Strength 3 poisoned attacks), but compared to what a unit of Blood Knights or Chaos Knight of Khorne can dish out it seems rather anemic.

The survivability of the unit is unquestionably one of the highest in the game, thanks to their 5+ Ward Save and Regeneration, but they just don't seem to hit that hard to me.

Slortor · Post by **Slortor** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:42 pm

yeah - the thing is the chaos knights arent actually gonna rack up many kills against the plague bearers - so if you want nastiest = hardest to get rid of, then plaguebearers own.

if nastiest = kills the most, then either chaos or blood knights

Dainis_silentblade · Post by **Dainis_silentblade** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:19 pm

actually I would say it was a unit of cold ones with hydra banner and standard of slaughter with dreadlord and backed by cauldron

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:36 pm

actually I would say it was a unit of cold ones with hydra banner and standard of slaughter with dreadlord and backed by cauldron

1 Hero max.

Kheel · Post by **Kheel** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:36 am

aside of Blood Knights, I really do think that Sword Masters from the High Elves are quite tough in a 6x3 formation, full command. With their WS6, 2 S5 attacks, ASF and only spend 300p for the entire unit... They are killing machines. I played against a dude who fielded 2 of these units just like I said 6x3. I got raped, I won the battle, but only just and since I could completely ignore them thanks to their M5...

Scary though, and really hard to avoid two of these units.
He really had me at one point, unit of 5 Dragon Princes was charged by my Black Guards, and since i had the ASF banner I attacked first, but failed to kill a single one, and in the second turn got flanked by the swordmasters. Nothing can win over that, unless he were to roll 1s for hitting and saving. Which he didn't, I had a 18 model strong unit of Black Guards, and 2 was slain after I charged his horsies, the remaining 16 was massacred by his Swordmasters - 13 attacks, and he didn't fail a single time. However, he tied my ~300p unit with ~600p worth of models. In which case I could use the rest of my force to deal with his remaining etc...
But they hit my Black Guards (our toughest unit ! SAKES!) on 3+ and wounded on 2+
Quite some power

Not to mention when I charged his Swordmasters with my CoK and a CoC. Pff... Bad choice

I mean, WS6 and S5 with ASF and 2 attacks each, 3 for the champ...

Cenyu · Post by **Cenyu** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:06 pm

Remember that impact hits from chariots are resolved even before the ASF of Swordmasters so the D6+1 S5 hits should thin out the retaliation (well... in case of ASF rather "pretaliation") from the surviving Swordmasters.

Borog · Post by **Borog** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:10 pm

But they are distrubuted like shooting, so wouldn't he still get to hit with all models in the front rank?

And don't BG have better initiative then swordmasters?

Swordmasters are good, but if you really want to kill them it's not that hard.

Rob the dark elf · Post by **Rob the dark elf** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:44 am

I'm gonna buck the trend and throw this one out there:

I like a Unit of 3 iron guts backed up by a kitted out Ogre Tyrant - not only do they do impact hits but then they get to attack. I think this unit would chew through most things out there. (I'm slightly biased because I think Ogres rule) Their major downside is the lack of static combat Res and low armour save - but they still hit really hard.

Zakath the slaughterer · Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:12 am

What about a Bloodthirster? He doesn't even need a unit

I think Thunderers with FC and BSB and Executioners with Banner of Murder and ASF Hag are also tough nuts to crack. Exes for obvious reasoons and Thunderers for their versatility.

Blackfel · Post by **Blackfel** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:16 am

That's a viable unit, but I would go one better and choose Maneaters instead of Ironguts. They're expensive, but then this isn't a thread about relative costs...it's about relative power. Immune to Psychology, Stubborn, better stats, and they look cooler to boot. With great weapons they have strength 7, and led by a kitted-out tyrant they'd be pretty stout.

Unfortunately, as you mentioned I think the lack of ranks and the crappy armor save really does them in. They can dish it out, but they just can't take it compared to Blood Knights or Chaos Knights, or even Grave Guard or Nurgle Plaguebearers.

Now how about a unit of 30 Dwarf Giantslayers, led by a Daemonslayer? Unbreakable goes a long way toward evening out a lot of the special rules of the other races, while the Slayer rule means that should any of the Slayers survive to strike back, the tougher the opponent the better they do. Of course, 30 Giantbreakers comes in at 780 points for the unit, NOT including the Daemonslayer. I'd never field them, but it bears considering for the purposes of this thread.

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:17 am

If we leave characters out, then chosen chaos warriors certainly are under the top ten, as are BG with banner of Hag Graef and Swordmasters, Blood knights and chosen Chaos knights. Each unit does have an individual weakness that can be exploited under the right circumstances. Luckily there is no single most powerful unit in the game - at least I have not seen the most über unit in the game as long as you leave characters out. If you put characters in... how about a unit of CoK led by Malus Darkblade and BSB with Hydra Banner supported by a cauldron of blood with +1 attack... That does cut through most of the units out there... as does BG with dreadlord and banner of Hag Graef, but there are so many other units that become absolutely devastating with characters in them.

HUZZAH!

Blackfel · Post by **Blackfel** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:38 am

Characters are fine (even special characters, though Malus was the first brought up) but only one character in the unit, and no support allowed. So, while a unit of Cold One Knights led by Malus is fine, adding in a Cauldron and the BSB means we're not talking about the Knights anymore, we're talking about a good chunk of an army.

Still, I do agree with you on Malus being an excellent choice. One of the drawbacks of the Cold One Knights is Stupidity, and Malus eliminates that. He's also rock-solid in combat, but I don't think he's quite on the level of a Vampire Lord running with a unit of Blood Knights.

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:00 am

I don't think he's quite on the level of a Vampire Lord running with a unit of Blood Knights.

But then again - Blood knights are hardly as efficient (if you look at the cost/effectiveness ratio) when they are led around the battlefield by a few Dark Riders all game... that way the Riders seem much more powerful seeing as you spent just over a hundred points to take out 25% of a 2000pt army... not bad at all if you ask me - and that wouldn't happen to Malus and his knights - which supports the claim I've made in my last post - there is no absolutely non-plus-ultra unit in the game, and hopefully it will stay that way.

WOOT... 1700 posts

HUZZAH!

Enfant terrible · Post by **Enfant terrible** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:23 pm

As stated by quite a few people nothing really beats the tooled up Blood Knights - NOTHING; but then again they are also expensive as hell!