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Is there a need for a Lord Choice? 
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:27 pm
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I recently played in a GT as a DE player and I landed 3rd overall going 3 Slaughters (VC,WE,WE), 1 Win (Deamon), 1 one Major Loss (WE).

From my experience, with our excellent Magical Items, there seems to be no need for Lord Type Characters in a balanced List.

Example: You want someone to Tie up the Big Bad Character in HTH so your BG can cut to ribbens the rest of the unit.

Master, SDC, Shield,GW, Blood Armour (15), Rev Ward Save (35) = 140pts

I tied up a Vampire Lord, All Sorts of Deamons, and even a Tree Man Ancient with him. That allowed for the BG to Get all the Combat Res needed to take down the support unit and win with CR.

I do get the need for a Lord if you are magic heavy, but if you just play with 4 Heros (or 3 Heros and a Assassin or 4 Heros and a Assassin), I think you will find that you have a really cheap character pts (600-700) and an support set of characters that excell in doing what they are supposed to do.

Example:
Master Above = 140pts General goes with a unit of BG
Master, 1+AS(25), Ring (25), GW(4), BSB(25) > Goes with a unit of BG in the center of the Table. = 159pts
Lv1 Sorc, 2 Dispell Scrolls = 150
Assassin, Rune of K, Killing Blow, Re-Roll 1 to wound = 175

Total Characters: 449 / 624

If you are faceing a Magic Heavy VC army, just march up the Unit of BG with the BSB in it to the center of the Table, and it will force a VC player to roll one dice for casting (Which means he will fail 1/3rd of the Time (So 9 PD becomes 6 PD and your 3 DD becomes more liveable).

You can always go for a Bit more Magic by Taking 2 LV2 Sorcerrers (1 with DS, +1PD / one with DS, Dagger) and get rid of the Assassin. That Gives you 7PD + Dagger + 4 DD + 2 DS + 2 Castings to gain more PD.

The wonder of the DElf list is not in its Lords, But in its really Strong Hero Support. Also with all the Champions Types that can have 25pt Magic Items, you can always give the Champions Null Stones to give you army a good Magic Defence.

That are your thoughts?

PS> With all the saved points, I tend to Take lots of BG, Stripped COK, Hydras, and all the other items. ITs fun to have more drops than most other armies and be playing DE!


Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:50 pm
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Cold One Knight
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I wholeheartedly agree with you - even though I always find it hard to stay clear of the Lord choices (Especially in Magic Heavy armies - where it isn't even viable to make do without) .. but your points are right on the spot! DE players are really spoiled for choices!

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Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:02 pm
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Agreed, except for when you want to field a dragon/manti combo, as you need the lord in this case. Same goes for the double manti, as you might want a sorc with two scrolls as well, which isn't possible with two heroes on manticores. But yes, heroes are more costeffective than lords IMO (I don't play magic armies...)

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Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:16 pm
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A lord can be useful at times to hold the centre of the army with his LD 10. Especially when like me you find it hard to roll below 11 for LD tests

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Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:25 pm
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Black Guard

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In 6th edition, I would never field Lords unless it was a dragonlord or magic heavy. In 7th edition, I always field them, because I love our magic items, and I can't seem to take enough with only heroes. ;)
You are correct, though, since we don't need to field them in order to have a competitive army.


Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:38 pm
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All our characters are viable IMO, both lord and non lord.

IMO the beauty of our new list is that we have so many options, we can go for few heroes, dual manti, magic heavy, heavy on core, special etc etc, and still build an effective list.

Lords have two big benefits howver, higher leadership (L10 does make a huge difference), and the ability to take 100 points worth of magic items, e.g. you can have both the ring of darkness and the armour of eternal servitude, you can have both the pendant and caledors bane, you can use the executioners axe etc etc.

I would however advice you to try and use a cauldron as a general, it is a very, very good suport unit.

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Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:51 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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I agree with you about Lords VS Heros. Its just that I am amazed that we an field something like 450pts in Characters and still be a very effective army in a GT. Thats amazing. Name a Deamon Army with 450pts in Characters or a VC in that point range.


Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:21 pm
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Cold One Knight
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clivegh wrote:
Name a Deamon Army with 450pts in Characters or a VC in that point range.


Now that is another matter entirely ... DoC seems to have taken over the old Chaos trend (which is also found in the WoC) that characters are the backbone of the army - the same goes for VC (more so actually) ... if a character is flawed or weak in a VC army then the entire army is flawed as well; but you are absolutely right about DE being perhaps the army most spoiled for choices.

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Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:25 pm
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Enfant Terrible wrote:
but you are absolutely right about DE being perhaps the army most spoiled for choices.


Where is my boiling blood cauldron-tossing catapult then??
It's my little pet peeve that we didn't get any real new choice in the list (death hag is a returnee from 5th edition) while most armies got something new (even if useless) like empire rocket launcher, vampire varghulf/corpse cart/WoC altar. Only other armies that didn't get anything new I think are O&G (spider riders being returnees from 5th like death hag) and dwarfs

But back to the topic.
No, the Lord isn't neccessary. I just can't make myself to play without a dragon :P For cold one/chariot/steed I'd probably rather use Master as a unit support. On foot dreadlord can work with Executioner's axe but that's about it.

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Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:10 pm
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Cold One Knight
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@Dalamar: I didn't say NEW choices - now did I 8)

I do know what you are aiming at though and I for one thought it to be somewhat "gutless" as well, but on the other hand I think my critique got lost in the fact that GW actually brought darkness into the powerless light that used to shine on the druchii - in other words: You are right, but I'm just happy we no longer suck! :lol:

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Last edited by Enfant terrible on Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:16 pm
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The only time I use a lord characters is when I play the Supreme Sorceress. My usual set up is 2 master and 2 lvl 2 sorceress each with various gear, depending on what I want my characters to do.


Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:18 pm
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I play a lord character because that character represents me. I'm no lackey. I'm the big guy so I get the best stats and equipment. :twisted:

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Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:17 pm
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Cold One Knight
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sulla wrote:
I play a lord character because that character represents me. I'm no lackey. I'm the big guy so I get the best stats and equipment. :twisted:


BEST reason imaginable!! Priceless :twisted:

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Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:50 pm
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In my new 2000 point list I am not using any Lord choices either.

I am going with the following set up:-

Master on Dark Pegasus + HA + SDC + Enchanted Shield + Sword of Battle
Level 2 Sorceress + Dispel Scroll
Level 2 Sorceress + Seal of Grond
Assassin + EHW + Ruine of Kaine + Touch of Death

It comes to 644 in characters. That value includes the Assassin and stands at 32.20% of the army.

I would like to say it works well but I have always previously used a Lord in 2000 point games. My point is that I don’t see the need for one really. My thinking these days is leaning towards having clearly defined roles for things and not having two many points tied up in one thing:-

Master – The Hunter
The Sorceresses – Magic Providers (spreading the eggs)
Assassin – The Assassin (does what it says on the box)

I will see how it performs soon. I am quite looking forward to trying it out!


Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:10 am
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Nope, don't need them and only take them to use a dragon really, or a level 4 which isn't often. The DE heroes are damn good, and I really like to use a few characters for support and a nice theme.

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Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:39 am
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Malekith's Best Friend

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Dalamar wrote:
Enfant Terrible wrote:
but you are absolutely right about DE being perhaps the army most spoiled for choices.


Where is my boiling blood cauldron-tossing catapult then??
It's my little pet peeve that we didn't get any real new choice in the list (death hag is a returnee from 5th edition) while most armies got something new (even if useless) like empire rocket launcher, vampire varghulf/corpse cart/WoC altar. Only other armies that didn't get anything new I think are O&G (spider riders being returnees from 5th like death hag) and dwarfs


Don't forget, Dwarves are "6.5" not 7th edition... Oh and our "something new" is *drums roll* Squidface...

On the topic, Lord never was a necessity, it just helps in several situations. There's 1 character that I miss the most: the beastmaster, he was useful at being a supportive character and a priceless one against the Empire's magic mirror.

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Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:56 am
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Quote:
Quote:
Enfant Terrible said:
but you are absolutely right about DE being perhaps the army most spoiled for choices.





Where is my boiling blood cauldron-tossing catapult then??
It's my little pet peeve that we didn't get any real new choice in the list (death hag is a returnee from 5th edition) while most armies got something new (even if useless) like empire rocket launcher, vampire varghulf/corpse cart/WoC altar. Only other armies that didn't get anything new I think are O&G (spider riders being returnees from 5th like death hag) and dwarfs


Well, we have handed in a baby dragon that was acting more like an angry chicken than a monster, for a monster that can kill an unit of infantry head on :P

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Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:19 pm
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Cold One Knight
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Quote:
Name a Deamon Army with 450pts in Characters or a VC in that point range.


Daemon army that came second at UK GT had about 300pts in characters a Nurgle BSB and a Slaanesh Herald. I think there are quite a few people who like having low point in characters in Daemon armies. VC's aren't going to work like that. Otherwise I think almost all armie have effective low character builds.

Anyway for me Ld 10 is the clincher for a Lord but I am happy either way if you use loads of Black Guard it is less of an issue. Hero builds are also pretty nice. I go long with the view that everything for DE are good thats why the book is so good.


Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:20 pm
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For good or ill I almost always take a Lord choice, but that's due more to my own poor die rolling when it comes to leadership than anything else. While he may/may not be needed, I find the Ld10 is more than worth the extra cost, even if I don't add in the extra bling of more magic items, etc. YMMV though...

Cheers, Gary

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Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:19 pm
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You just can't ignore LD10! It can be so incredibly useful. Not least because it almost totally mitigates stupidity!


Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:55 pm
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kangavallo wrote:
You just can't ignore LD10! It can be so incredibly useful. Not least because it almost totally mitigates stupidity!


As someone who loves to field Cold Ones regardless how many times I fail the stupidity checks, this is another reason I almost always bring a lord. I just wish the chariots were still 2-for-1 since I usually don't think they are worth it when they take up a special slot. Still, I love the model so it usually appears in my lists in some fashion or another.

Cheers, Gary

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Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:41 pm
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silashand wrote:
kangavallo wrote:
You just can't ignore LD10! It can be so incredibly useful. Not least because it almost totally mitigates stupidity!


As someone who loves to field Cold Ones regardless how many times I fail the stupidity checks, this is another reason I almost always bring a lord. I just wish the chariots were still 2-for-1 since I usually don't think they are worth it when they take up a special slot. Still, I love the model so it usually appears in my lists in some fashion or another.

Cheers, Gary



Yeah 2 for 1 would be good but the chariot is still pretty damn good withits new armour save, lower cost and higher leadership (LD9 does ake lords slightly less necessary, I may add). Most useful against high elves though. They really don't like those impact hits.


Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:18 pm
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