Dark Elves Vs. Chariot Heavy Tomb Kings

[Vutall]

Hello all, I was wondering what you would suggest as a list against a chariot heavy tomb kings at 2,500.

I had played against him a few weeks ago for fun and managed to get a major victory. But to be fair, his list wasnt what he normally plays, since he took lead beltchers instead of an extra unit of chariots, and 2 "Flaming Skull Catapults"

So, what would be the best way to play him? Since hes going to be bringing the catapults, i really fear my large blocks getting destroyed before they can even be brought into combat, and his impact hits are just disgusting!

[Phierlihy]

Every Tomb King player puts their catapults/casket on a hill so everyone can see them and they can see everyone. Take one unit of 20-25 Repeater Crossbowmen - since they are in a hill, all your ranks can see and fire at them. 40-50 shots per turn will either ruin him or force him to abandon the hill.

Tomb King chariots are made of paper - they only do D3 impact hits as opposed to D6. So they shouldn't do too much damage if they ram your units. Hit them with strength 7 attacks and they'll fall apart. You can also maneuver him into over-running into some difficult ground.

[Vutall]

What about making a heavy calvary list against him? He will be able to out maneuver me, but, with the hard 2+ armor save, his impact hits wont have much of a chance to deny my attacks back..

[Zakath the slaughterer]

Killing 2 Catapults and the Casket with crossbows is not the most efficient way, I think. DR and Harpies (in range of the general's LD) are what I'd reserve for those units.

Repeater crossbows, with their new AP ability, are the bane of chariots, though. He is hard pressed to heal all those wounds you can cause with your shooting - especially since his Catapults and Casket are in combat now

Cold One Knights are a prime idea, good save and S4 attacks guarantee survivability while Fear means that they are less prone to flee...

Shades w/ additional hand weapons, Seal of Ghrond and Staff of Sorcery are good options against TK, too

[Druchii77]

I agree with Zakath. Hunt the machines. Shooting at them will waste quite a few good rounds of shooting. I would focus fire on the chariots as they are lightly armored and use harpies and dark riders to hunt down the war machines. Also, remember that the casket needs to draw line of sight to units. Use your harpies and DR to screen your army from view by rushing them up to block line of sight. That will waste the casket for a turn. Also, use your fast cav and harpies to set up traps for the chariots. Then countercharge. Remember undead can't flee.

[Vutall]

Ive never used CoK's ((Even though I have 25 of them...)) So could someone point me to a list that uses them so I can get an idea of how to kit them up?

[Dalamar]

Against TK... hunt the machines yes, but do not shoot them. You may kill all the crew members, but then they will raise them back again.
TK machines can regain lost crew if machine is left standing, or regain lost crew if the machine is still standing. so make sure you kill them in close combat, it takes the whole unit out.

Be careful about tomb scorpions. They will dig out when you're the most vulnerable and kill your machines, kill your pricy character with KB or just hold back a unit for way longer than a single monster with their stats should be able to.

Anything else is really very very squishy, even the tomb giants aren't that powerful (Hydra should eat one with a bit of effort)

Be watchful of tomb guard... they can carry a banner that allows them to reform for free at the start of the turn, which means before charges are declared. (and pass that to any Icon Bearers who might have that banner as well)

[Prince daerlythe]

Has anyone considered a general with the Executioner's Axe? Just about everything will hit and wound, and @ Strength 8 it makes about 4 chariots per CC round. Put him with the Black Guard and give them the Banner of Hag Graef and there's nothing your opponent can do.

And if you're considering the damage the Tomb King General will do, relax. You have ASF and will hit @ Str 10, dealing D3 wounds. The strength will do away with any armour they have (which for TK isn't too good), and then there are only 2 Ward saves in their army, one of which is the Talisman of Protection, so you're pretty clean there.

Repeater Crossbows are also a good idea. Their AP rule will deal with infantry like Tomb Guard quickly before they get to your lines. Dark Riders and Shades would make for great anti war machine groups, both for their shooting and CC skills.

Anyhow, those are my opinions. Cheers

[Starphoenix]

TK and DE, the two armies I play. First - keeping unit near your general won't help against the casket. You may use your generals leadership when you are testing against your leadership - but the casket doesn't involve a test - you don't get to roll, the casket does. Null Talismans are you friend against the casket - remember they stack, even if they are not in the same unit, as long as the spell/effect affects multiple units with them. As long as three can see the casket - you get a MR of 3 - you don't want to go much higher - but it worth 45 pts to always get 3 dispell vs his 2 cast for the casket.

Tk chariots are pretty weak, and once you survive the initial impact they are really weak.

Magic heavy is a must against TK, I would go with a lot of Sorceress caddies, and bring one with a Staff of sorcery. +1 dispell is a must. Also use 1 more die than you normally would to cast all spells. I can't tell you how many spells the casket's -1 has prevented from being cast - but it's a lot.

A big BG unit can blast through just about anything he has - just be sure to screen them vs chariots/archers.

WH's are a better choice than RBT's they are mobile so, "it came from below," won't be a factor. They are immune to fear. Their breath weapon can make short work of a TK or TP.

Try to take out units with LP and LHP's first. Also, be sure to finish off unit's as fast as you can. It can be a real pain when that unit of 3 skeletons you shot appart charges your in the rear, two turns later, while you are in a pitched battle with his Tomb Guard, oh and now they are back up to 20 strong.

[Dalamar]

Null Talismans are you friend against the casket - remember they stack, even if they are not in the same unit, as long as the spell/effect affects multiple units with them. As long as three can see the casket - you get a MR of 3 - you don't want to go much higher - but it worth 45 pts to always get 3 dispell vs his 2 cast for the casket.

This is actually wrong. Null Talismans stack yes, but they only stack on the same character carrying them. So one character carrying 3 will have MR 3 but 3 characters carrying 1 talisman each will have MR 1 each.

It is clearly stated in the BRB that if a spell affects multiple units with MR you use the highest value, not add them up. And Null Talisman's exception of stacking with itself only affects the same character (if you can take it on multiple characters at all still remains a question needing a FAQ)

[Tony 92]

Shadowblade? If you're worried about war machines then you can hide him in the units themselves. Even if he doesn't kill all the crew they won't even be able to fire the catapult. Sure he's 300pts but that's not too bad in a 2,500pts army.

Chariot impact hits? Black Guard can take massive amounts of punishment but still hold (Stubbon, ld 9 ) after the first round then inflicting massive damage from the next round onwards.

I'd also take Crossbows, to fill out the core selections with good units that should be able to do some real damage.

Good Luck!

[Dalamar]

two assassins are just a couple points more and way more versatile and effective than shadowblade... it's sad really.

[Starphoenix]

[quote="Dalamar It is clearly stated in the BRB that if a spell affects multiple units with MR you use the highest value, not add them up. And Null Talisman's exception of stacking with itself only affects the same character (if you can take it on multiple characters at all still remains a question needing a FAQ)[/quote]

True, except where over-ridden by an army codex - which in this case it was. The new DE codex says that multiple NT's may be taken - just like dispell scrolls; which multiple characters may take. As far as stacking from different units - all the codex says is that multiple NT's may be taken and that they stack. Untill this is FAQ'd; by the letter of the wording all NT's affected will stack.

[Dalamar]

That's where the confusion comes from.
Null Talismans are not dispel scrolls, and "like dispel scrolls" is only mentioned with single character carrying multiple talismans.
Anything else that is "like dispel scrolls" isn't mentioned, and only thing that could lead to argument to allow more than one character to carry them is the plural form of model.

One letter making or breaking an interpretation, not a first time in the history of GW rules.

The only reason why it says that their effects stack is because if it didn't say so, buing more than one Null Talisman would be pointless as you'd end up with 3 times MR 1 (which wouldn't stack).

[Druchii77]

Magic Resistance never stacks. If multiple talismans are taken, by multiple characters, the one with the highest amount of magic resistance is the one used. You would use cumulative resistance. As Dalamar stated, the only way null talismans are like dispel scrolls is that multiples may be taken by a single character.