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Viable Khainite lists... how ?!? 
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Warrior

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:46 am
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Fellow druchii,

I am having trouble cooking up a viable khainite list including the infantry special choices. Witch Elves, Executioners and Black Guard, backed by a cauldron.

I just can't see how T3 5+save models costing anywhere from 10-13 points each can reach the other side of the table unless playing against VC or Chaos who have no shooting.

DR and harpies are okay for one time shooting meatshields, but if I'm to surrender 300pts to begin with...

So the questions are:

What is the optimal set up for each of these units? 3x6? 2x6? 3x5?

How on EARTH do you screen them from shooting so that they make it in combat in a decent number?

Please mention any other tactics that come to mind regarding use of these units and lists dedicated to them.

Thanks.


Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:05 am
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Noble

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
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Quote:
I am having trouble cooking up a viable khainite list including the infantry special choices. Witch Elves, Executioners and Black Guard, backed by a cauldron.


BG are not khainite.

Quote:
I just can't see how T3 5+save models costing anywhere from 10-13 points each can reach the other side of the table unless playing against VC or Chaos who have no shooting.


? ALL of are infantry are T3 with a 5+ or worse save, how do you get them across the table? This is the general weakness of all elves, not just khainite elves.

Quote:
DR and harpies are okay for one time shooting meatshields, but if I'm to surrender 300pts to begin with...


I think DR with RXB are useless, I know many will disagree but I find the price you pay for 5 RXB too much. At any rate DR are too expensive to be used as a meat shield, especially when harpies are available. I do use them, but I run them bare and use them exclusively for hunting weak targets and flanking, being able to boost them with a COB comes in handy too. IMO they are defiantly not a throw away unit, thats what harpies are for.

Quote:
What is the optimal set up for each of these units? 3x6? 2x6? 3x5?


I always run them 6 wide, you get more attacks but don't sacrifice much in the way of maneuverability. Maximum attacks is important, since this is how you will probably be winning CC, rather than through rank bonuses and such.

I also wouldn't worry about ranking them too deeply, I run executioners in units of 6 with nothing but a champion, you can do this with WE too. If you have a whole heap of small 6 man units your opponent will never be able to stop them all with shooting, there will simply be too many targets and he will be overwhelmed especially with a big harpy shield in front(-1 to hit).

Your also ensuring that every 10-13 point model in your army that makes it across the table will get into CC, rather than being stuck in a rank and doing nothing.

Having said all of that, it can't hurt to include one large block of WE to use as an anvil of sorts. As long as you keep them near the COB they are stubborn, immune to phycology and if you like, you can include witches brew to refuse many combat bonuses the enemy may get. Alternatively you could use ASF executioners too.

Quote:
How on EARTH do you screen them from shooting so that they make it in combat in a decent number?


Mass harpy screening is paramount. Harpies do more for this style of build than any other IMO. Not only do they keep your soft infantry from getting shot to death, they can bait, screen WE from being baited and they can hunt war machines and mages effectively. Although you may find DR are better at the latter than harpies especially against dwarves or HE, I just take both.

I find with a fair amount of DR, harpies and shades you can easily overwhelm a stationary gun line early on long enough, for the bulk of your infantry to proceed forward unchecked and in to CC safely. IMO this is the key to winning with this style of list.


Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:49 am
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Chillwind, loads of your own shooting, mobility, screening terrain, and firepower magnets like Hydras. The occasional meat shield with harpies for a critical unit yes, but you don't need to sacrifice large numbers of troops for no reason.

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Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:09 am
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Remember 5+ ward from Couldron :D

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Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:43 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Unless you are playing against an enemy gunline-type army that just sits back in its deployment zone, 5" movement should get you in position to charge stuff on turn 2 or 3.

I have been running a Khainite list based around Executioners a bit lately, and I generally have a pretty fair amount of shooting myself -- 40 models armed with repeater crossbows and sometimes an RBT or two. First priority is generally enemy fast cavalry and missile troops, which means fewer enemies to shoot at my combat troops.

Also, I think Executioners and Witches are best in relatively small and wide units. Executioners do well in a unit of 14 deployed 7-wide to maximize attacks.

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Last edited by Dyvim tvar on Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:33 pm
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I like Dyvim am currently using a Khainite list and am doing very well with. I too have quite a bit of shooting. The cauldron is great at keeping our units alive both in and out of combat and the units really are rock hard in combat. It is very viable, though certain items like the ring of hotek are a huge help.

Here is this list I am currently running with great success:
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=59431

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Last edited by Druchii77 on Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:53 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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I'd like to try this: Hellebron as general, a COB with hag and a hag BSB.
Then 3 units of witch elves one row wide (about 30 long) moving across the board engaging multiple units.

Then the enemy would could really only get 5 or six static combat resolution points over most of his army. Then with the mass causualities the WE should be causing then it's possible his whole army may run in a single turn! :twisted: Even if the first row doesn't work then I've two more rows to come!

Sounds pretty cool huh?


Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:47 pm
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Corsair

Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:31 pm
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well, would it be one group of 30? or multiple groups that add up to 30? If its multiple, or even one group, would you screen them with harpies? I understand the devastation they can unleash, but it seems they could make multicharging and flanking hard for you to achieve considering the table space they are taking up.


Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:37 pm
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Arnold Layne
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I think it a good idea in a Khainite list to have two Cauldrons. THat way you can spread your blessings right across the table. However, I also feel a Dreadlord would be handy, so as to get maximum effect from Stubborn troops. People will bait your Witches, but your Exes are rather likely to get charged, so you want to do all you can to keep them from running.

Now, if you take a Dreadlord, you'll want him in the centre and alive and well, and fairly cheap, so a unit of RXBs with shields might be a good bodygaurd, as might a unit of Shades - but of course, that means a Special slot and less Khainites. Same with Black Gaurd, who also cannot shoot.

Cheaper than a Dread and bodygaurd might be giving one of your Cauldrons the Banner of Nagarythe. Free CR plus rerollable Stubbornness at Ld 9 is no joke.

Oh, it also crosses my mind that one good reason to take Harpy spam over Dark Riders is to have more units to place, and so to have a greater chance of winning the Deployment phase. Important, because you don't want your Witches facing Chaos Knights, and you don't want your Exes facing huge units of Undead.

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Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:00 am
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Beastmaster
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Stubborn troops are only stubborn on their own Leadership.

And the problem with many small blocks of infantry in an all khainite army is that you only have a certain amount of special slots to fill. So 4 units in a 2000pts battle all consisting of 6 models won't do much.

One big unit of WE, possibly a 7*2 unit of ASF executioners.

WE can have larger units to be effective, but Execioners strike last and are better off as smaller flanking units.


Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:15 pm
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Warrior

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:46 am
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I take it all back.

I just ran a list with a Manticore Dreadlord, a scroll caddy, and a BSB cauldron hag.

18 Black Guard, 18 Execs, 18 WE, 10 RxB's, 2x5 DR, 2x5 Harpies and a Hydra.

Was playing against Woodies.

The Hydra and the manti drew all fire and the infantry reached combat in full numbers.

Indeed, M5 is a beauty, if opponent marches you can get a charge on turn 2.

I love this list. Just made a variant, because the Lord on Dragon was good but not that good for his 450 pts.

Heroes:
Death Hag (140pts)
[General; Rune of Khaine; Manbane] ---> Leading the WE

Death Hag (225pts)
[ABSB; Cauldron of Blood] ---> Stubborn stuff!

Sorceress (185pts)
[Lvl 2; Dispel Scroll (x2)] ---->Caddy

Core Troops:
Assassin (151pts)
[Two Hand Weapons; Rune of Khaine; Touch of Death] --->(stubborn LD10 death)

10 Rep. Xbowmen (126pts)
[Shields; Musician]

5 Dark Rider (92pts)
[Musician]

5 Dark Riders (117pts)
[Rep. Xbows; Musician]

5 Harpies (55pts)

5 Harpies (55pts)

Special:
18 Black Guard (329pts)
[Full Command; Ring of Hotek; Standard of Hag Graef]

18 Executioners (246pts)
[Full Command]

18 Witch Elves (230pts)
[Full Command; Banner of Murder]

6 Shades (119pts)
[RxB; Great Weapons]

Rare:
War Hydra (175pts)


Total 2246pts, 3 DD, 97 Models.[/u]


Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:58 am
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To Borog: "Stubborn troops are only stubborn on their own Leadership". What if we will have a Death Hag to act like the general? She becomes stubborn and she is a general. Could we use her unmodified leadership for tests for another units of stubborn WE?
Correct me if I get it wrong but I did so several times during the games and it does not cause discussions between me and my opponents...

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Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:00 pm
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that list is exactly what I would want, except one thing. I'd say that the 2nd magic level on the sorc is useless because you didn't invested in that phase, get it off and get more shades, your enemies will now see them as a big threat.

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Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:01 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Drifting into subjects belonging in the Army List forum, but ...

Agreed that the second magic level is not worth it. I would use the points to get RxBs for the other unit of Dark Riders.

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Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:07 pm
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Warrior

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go khainite, go hellebron,

core WE are all worth it, but then, i like my list with 8 units of 6 WE

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Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:05 am
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hmm one thing i had this a few games tht if you have a unit of lets say 10 WE and your opponent kills 6 of them from shooting some opponents dismiss them as any threat,.... then one of his/her/its units run screaming off the board after the WE killed 15 models(if the hag has rune of khaine, and you kill with all attacks....its a example) never underestimate the semi-nude crazy she elves one WE hag one combat against a unit of beastmen( mainly gors) she killed a rank :)

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Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:42 pm
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Lasthobbit wrote:
To Borog: "Stubborn troops are only stubborn on their own Leadership". What if we will have a Death Hag to act like the general? She becomes stubborn and she is a general. Could we use her unmodified leadership for tests for another units of stubborn WE?
Correct me if I get it wrong but I did so several times during the games and it does not cause discussions between me and my opponents...


I would say no to that.


Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:04 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Quick note -- I believe that if the Charcter is IN the unit and the character is stubborn, then the character's lerdership is used.

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Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:15 pm
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:
Quick note -- I believe that if the Charcter is IN the unit and the character is stubborn, then the character's lerdership is used.


Yes, if he is IN the unit then the characters inmodified leadership is used, as long as the character is stubborn.

If the character is stubborn and the unit is not, then they can still use the characters unmodified leadership, which means that death hags are really good when a COB is included! Stick her in a spearman unit and they are stubborn on a 9!


Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:04 pm
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Has anyone tried the lone assassin holding up entire units by himself? With 3 base 1 from two weapons, and d3 from khaine attacks also take into account that most enemies will be hitting him on 5's. First round he challenges. that is one combat that he survives. Second round probably kills 2guys most likely will still survive. With his stubborn leadership 10 he is not going to run. Make the cauldron a BSB and then its re roll leadership 10

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Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:13 pm
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masterofdarkness wrote:
Has anyone tried the lone assassin holding up entire units by himself? With 3 base 1 from two weapons, and d3 from khaine attacks also take into account that most enemies will be hitting him on 5's. First round he challenges. that is one combat that he survives. Second round probably kills 2guys most likely will still survive. With his stubborn leadership 10 he is not going to run. Make the cauldron a BSB and then its re roll leadership 10


It would probably work very well, but the problem IMHO is that the assassin would have to target someone with low T and AS, cause he cannot handle the retribution if he fails to kill all three. And so the unit he targets would probably be a cheap one, where it would be more efficient to just charge in with a unit and break them with the help of the assassin.

Against HE infantry such a tactic might be more viable however, perhaps against White Lions as they only have one attack each and die fairly easily in CC. Swordmasters might kill the assassin if just one survive, and Phoenix guard are too tough to kill. It would work wonders against a spearman unit if you hit it in the side however.

Edit: A dragon slayer is ideal for this tactic. only 50pts, put him up against a str3 unit and he can stick around for the rest of the game.


Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:23 pm
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I agree that using the lone assassin tar pit is risky and in many cases not the greatest use of his abilities, whereas he can take a mediocre unit and make it quite strong simply by providing kills and preventing loss of static combat res. Obviously, he would be great at taking out light units that have far reaching impact on the game, for instance I can see an assassin getting much worth out of lone charging glade guard and taking a unit or two apart. Those units can do exponential amounts of damage than their points value worth is.

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Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:05 am
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