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Defending against single PD spells. 
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:02 pm
Posts: 10
Hi everyone, I know this is my first post but I have been reading the forums for quite some time gathering useful information and finally I have a topic which i've checked in the d.r.a.i.c.h and also searched for with no real results.

My topic/question is how do you defend against single PD spells which a player can cast many times over per magic phase. I ask this as it has come up in recent games i've played, it was my first time against ogers and wood elves.

In my game against the ogres I didn't suffer as bad as I employed 3 sorcerers but found it stressful knowing when to use DD and when it was more vital to use two.

Later along the line I had been developing my army in tune ready to take it in tournaments, so I opted fore ROH and a Scroll caddy. Against wood elves I really suffered in the magic phase as I had woods moving everywhere and was saving my DD for when my opponent tried to pull off a big spell. In the end I managed to pull off a win but my units suffered in the movement phase.

So how can you defend against such magical tactic and is it possible too using the ROH, scroll caddy set up?

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Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:09 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:21 pm
Posts: 46
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Well, ogres are easy... concentrate on dispelling the spells that will hurt you THAT TURN. You can dispel ogre spells like remains in play spells on your own turn, so don't waste DD on spells that won't bother you right away.


Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:01 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:20 pm
Posts: 210
Location: houston, texas
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the ROH, scroll caddy set up is not designed to stop armies like Ogres and VC, who can do most of their casting on one die. Ultimately, with game experience you will learn which spells to let through and which ones to stop.

If you can afford it, pick up the other army books and get real familiar with the other lores, especially the newer books, and maybe some of the other armies that you know you'll play against alot. The more familiar you become with the other lores, the easier the decision will be on what to stop and what to let through.

To quote the great Sun Tzu, ""Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril. When you are ignorant of the enemy, but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril."

I would also suggest maybe a master BSB with 2 null talismans to give you a little more magic defense, or maybe the seal of ghrond which gives you one more dispel die.

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Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:03 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:02 pm
Posts: 10
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Thanks to this site I've been reading up of the best tactics against each army i'm going to face, the wood elf game caught me by surprise as I thought I was facing a different one.

And if I was to play in a tournament you never know who you will come up against. The books cost so much now I don't really have the chance to get hold of them so I rely on reading the problems other gamers come across and learn by the solutions given.

Since the release of the new book i've got back into fantasy and i'm having to relearn what different armies can do. This topic is one fuzzy area I come across and in my army list( which i'll have to post in the other forum) I struggle to fit in what I want so I settled for the ROH, Scroll Cad as it seems many people manage with this set up.

I was wondering what they do when they come across this situation?

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Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:25 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:20 pm
Posts: 210
Location: houston, texas
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go to warseer and in the fantasy discussion forum there is a topic called "warhammer lore cards". it will link you to a site where people have done magic style cards for all of the lores. Go print these out so that you don't have to get the other books.

I wish I could offer more assistance, but I don't run this setup personally.

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Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:44 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
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Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
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Reminds me I need to finsih up my Magic Defense article ...

Bottom line is that you need to let a lot of it go without trying to dispel. In such a situation, you can't dispel everything and you just have to live with that fact. You have to prioritize and try to stop the castings that are the more immediate threat.

Regarding the specific situation of Tree-Singing you had to deal with, a better option than trying to dispel it is to fly a unit of harpies or move unit of dark riders right next to the forest that the Wood Elf player wants to move. Since the forest stops as soon as it hits a unit, you can effectively stop the spell without any dispel dice.

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Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:53 pm
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Warrior

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:22 pm
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of ye go with the RoH and a caddy (or in my case, with MR3) ye will not be able to dispell spells on own units.

ye just have to make sure those spells do not hurt ye.

as noticed before, RiP spells that do not do immidiate damage can be dispelled with pd in your magic phase thou

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Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:01 am
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Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:33 pm
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Well, as an Ogre player myself, and a huge fan of them, let me give you some advice and info on what's the most important to an Ogre player.

If you're using the heavier side of magic, you shouldn't have any problem dispelling all of his buffs, but if you're not then you may be a bit perplexed. Now, let's see... where shall we begin?

First and foremost, I can say that every last one of the Ogre spells is very, very useful to an Ogre Kingdoms army, and Gut Magic is probably the Ogre Kingdoms' most useful asset. This can make it difficult to decide which to get rid of, as they all have a good use. The fact that all their mages know all 6 Gut magic spells complicates the matter a bit more.

Everything in their spell list casts on a 3+. This means that 3 butchers can cast a total of 8 spells per turn! This gets worse when you consider that if you don't dispel something this turn, the dispel value for the spell next turn will not be 3+, but will instead rise to a 7+!

As if to make things worse, their remains in play spells aren't ordinary remains in play spells. Butchers can cast these spells and then immediately cast other spells without problems.

The upside of all this is that if he casts a spell successfully with one mage, the casting cost of that spell in the same turn will rise by 3. This means that, if for example he casts a magic missile with one mage, and wishes to cast it with another mage in the same turn, the casting cost will become a 6+ instead of a 3+. Future castings of the same spell will become a 9+, 12+, and so on.

Making things easier is the fact that each unit can only have 1 buff active on it at a time. As soon as another one is cast on it, the first one goes away.

Now, here's where it gets a bit more interesting. Think a moment about what could be most useful to them. Do you plan on throwing lots of spells next turn at a certain unit being buffed, or plan to go into a heavy combat with them where every last wound counts? Then you might want to focus on dispelling 2 spells in particular: Trollguts and Toothcracker.

Trollguts in particular could cause problems, since it gives the unit MR and Regeneration, but you may want to focus on any Toothcracker castings instead, since not only does Trollguts cause an automatic wound to the Butcher that casts it (making it easier to take him down), but Toothcracker makes the unit Stubborn, which is a great benefit to those low-leadership Ogres.

Keep an eye out for any Bonecruncher castings directed at your Knights. This spell causes 2d6 strength 2 hits, with no armor saves. Against Toughness 3 elf Knights, it can be very nasty, so make sure to keep it away at all costs. Also keep in mind that he can cast this multiple times with different mages, and the casting cost of 3+ remains the same if you dispel it. If he aims it at any other unit with low armor, I'd recommend ignoring it and dispelling something else.

If he's casting Bullgorger and he's not going to be in combat this turn, then you're better off ignoring it completely. +1 strength is not going to be useful if he's not in combat, so you may want to focus y our dispel dice in other directions. On the other hand, if he casts this on, say, a unit of Ironguts with Greatweapons that are charging your expensive Knights or big Monsters, I'd take a serious look at dispelling it.

Braingobbler can be brutal to some armies if used properly, but completely useless to others. Normally I'd say, if you're using Dark Elves, ignore this spell. A panic test on any unit in line of sight can be potentially hazardous, but high leadership helps mitigate this. This spell is usually used to lure out dispel dice.

Bloodgruel can be useful, depending on the situation, to dispel. It heals the caster on a roll of a 2+ (after the spell is successfully cast). If the caster is on his last wound or if he's in combat with something, you may want to get rid of it so you can have the chance to rid yourself of a nuisance. If the caster has taken only 1 wound, though, or if he has full health, you may want to let it by, and it is also sometimes used to lure out dispel dice.

You get all that? Good!


Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:04 am
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:20 pm
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Location: houston, texas
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I have a buddy who plays ogres and the most successful defense against gut magic is to let it all go through, then miscast on your next turn and roll the miscast that dispels all spells in play. :)

Not kidding, I've managed to do this, twice.

Gut magic can be very tricky, I've played it enough to know that you have to be one step ahead so that you know what to let go through.

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Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:24 am
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Black Guard
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Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:18 am
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Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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If you want a cheap and easy way to take a serious bite out of Gut Magic, take the Staff of Sorcery. For 50 points you get +1 to your dispel rolls, making it MUCH more difficult for the Butchers to get a 3+ spell off with a single die...at least until your Dispel Dice run out.

Warriors of Chaos have a very nasty combo they can use to interfere with Gut Magic: the Black Tongue/Infernal Puppet combo. It's expensive at 85 points for the combo, but considering how devastating the Gut Magic Miscast table is, you have a good shot at killing off a butcher.

The way it works is you wait until a Butcher fails to cast a spell (rolls a 1 or a 2.) When he does, you hit him with the Black Tongue (Converts any failed attempt at spellcasting into a Miscast). He rolls on the Miscast table, and thanks to the power of the Infernal Puppet, you get to modify his roll by up to d3 in either direction.

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Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:15 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:02 pm
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Thanks for the pointers guys, the magic cards will be very helpful, so now I can be a bit more prepared for magic instead of always asking "so what does that do?"

Quote:
Regarding the specific situation of Tree-Singing you had to deal with, a better option than trying to dispel it is to fly a unit of harpies or move unit of dark riders right next to the forest that the Wood Elf player wants to move. Since the forest stops as soon as it hits a unit, you can effectively stop the spell without any dispel dice.


I did not know this, this is a very useful tip as in that game I could of used my harpies alot more better than I did.

So to sum up dispel spells that are the most inment threat.
Use your PD to dispel remain in play spells.
Try and work out sly ways of making certain spells less efective by any means you can think of.
If you can afford to buy magic items and null talismens to get you some extra DD dice.

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Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:53 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:26 pm
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Location: Copenhagen
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Regarding the VC:

Most of the time you wants to use you DD to cancel Vanhel's Danse Macabre. Let him raise unit and add to units, but don't let him make a surprise move.

Of the big 3 spells, he will probably only try to cast one per magic phase. Hope for the ring to trigger and if not, use a scroll.


With the ring to make the big spells hard/dangerous to pull off I would consider dropping a scroll and take the Seal instead. Or just add the seal on another character. This depends somewhat on your list and playstyle, so you might want to playtest some.


Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:45 am
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