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Updated Bristol Brawl 2000pts List - 2nd Place! 
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Cold One Knight
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Hey Guys i'm going to the Bristol Brawl in a couple of months and need to start thinking of a list. It is a pitched battle tournament with very limitewd comp (I think just certain over the top armies will be sent back to be rewritten). One game is a swap armies scenario where you play with your opponents army. Therefore I want to take something a bit different that will take a bit of knowledge to use well. Having read the thread in the tactics section about using crossbowmen instead of Dark Riders I thought this would be a good thing to try. Also one of the reasons I started Dark Elves is the old White Dwarf campaign 'Thornskins Island' I remember them going in depth on a Dark Elf army focused on a unit of Witch Elves and Cold One Knights. I think these two units a really the archetypal Dark Elf units.

So here is my list:

Dreadlord: Cold One, SDC, Heavy Armour, Shield, Crimson Death, Pendant of Khaleth: 245pts
Death Hag: BSB, Banner of Hag Graef, Manbane, Rune of Khaine: 200pts
Sorceress: L2, Dispel Scroll, Tome of Furion: 175pts
Sorceress: L2, Dispel Scroll, Darkstar Cloak: 185pts

20 Warriors: CSM: 135pts
20 Warriors: CSM: 135pts
10 RXB: 100pts
10 RXB: 100pts
5 Harpies: 55pts
5 Harpies: 55pts

5 Cold One Knights: CSM, War Banner: 200pts
14 Witch Elves: CSM, Banner of Murder, Manbane: 215pts

2 Bolt Throwers: 200pts

2000pts

Witch Elves and limited disruption units seems a bit risky but i'm hoping with practice this is the kind of thing that will make this army difficult to use but possible to master. What do you guys think?


Last edited by Skilgannon on Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:49 am, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:22 am
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Cold One Knight
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Nobody?


Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:33 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Both the warrior units need shields, the dreadlord can lose his shield. If you are going moderate magic with warriors i think the dagger might be worth it. If not you could have a BSB, on a Dark Steed withte Hydra Banner and go Old School. With the cauldron as ASF CoK's it should be a fun unit to use. I feel the list is lacking some punch. BUT OVERALL NICE.

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Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:45 pm
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You might want to think about adding a sixth knight, otherwise there is randomisation across that unit from shooting right from the off.


Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:47 pm
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I know you really seem to want the witches, but have you considered the hag in a unit of executioners instead of witches? They benefit from the ASF banner far more than the witches will. As a matter of fact, they are downright scary with ASF.

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Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:40 pm
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Cold One Knight
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Hi I ended up replacing someone at a 16 person one day touranment so I thought I would take this list to see how it fared. I managed to win the event with 2 massacres and draw. I thought a summary of the games might be useful:

Game 1 - Dark Elves

Scenario - Table Quarters worth 250pts

Army List - Probably the cheesiest list I have ever seen (although not the hardest) 4 Lvl 2 Sorceress, 4 Assassins, 10 Black Guard (ASF), 10 RXB, 15 Spearmen, 10 Corsairs with handbows, hydra, bolt thrower.

I use a unit of 20 warriors as a screen to protect my witch elves and cold ones from the magic phase and set up my shooting on the flanks to try and cause panic checks to take advantage of his low leadership. My opponent had a wizard in each unit of infantry.

Luckily my opponents wasn't a cheesey player and didn't really know how to use the list as he had only written it for a laugh. His magic did very little and my screening unit charged the hydra to let the harpies charge a bolt throwers and my cold ones to charge his spearmen (and then into his black guard). The warriors got beaten by the hydra but the hydra then ran into my ASF Witch Elves who butchered it. Cold ones went through both units they faces and the corsairs and RXBs got shot up/panicked.

Result - Huge Massacre

Overall he was a really nice guys but had no idea how to use his army and hadn't put quite enough grit into the army, moving his assassin into two combat units and a champion with Crimson Death in the Black Guard would have made a big difference to the list.

Game 2 - Dark Elves

Scenario - Capture +500pts for centre of the board

I was playing against my friend Steve for this game, as Steve had cancelled a practice game on the saturday I thought I would teach him a lesson for cancelling on me.

Army List - Dreadlord, BSB, Assassin, 2 Units of Black Guard (1 with ASF 1 with Ring of Hotek). 25 Warriors, 10 RXB, 5 Dark Riders, 2 units of 5 Harpies, Hydra, 2 Bolt Throwers.

Deployment for this game was facinating a real cat an mouse affair that probably took longer than the first two turns. I ended up with a refused flank with the Cold ones in the centre and Witch Elves on one Flank. Steve had a Refused Centre. This allowed me to sweep away the half the army and then bring my full force against the second half of Steve's army. Steve also threw away his Dark Riders and Harpies in the first turn by sending them straight forward to disrupt my lines. On a side note the Witch Elves bagged their second Hydra of the day.

Result - Huge Massacre

The lack of magic really hurt Steve 2 and 3 dice spells are very effective against Dark Elves this balances out the risk of miscast. So people who say the Ring of Hotek is a whole magic defence need to think a bit more about that. Steve was out deployed and his early moves cost him (he was probably tired after the mamoth deployment phase!).

Game 3 - High Elves

Scenario - Pitched Battle

Army List - Star Dragon, 2 Mages, 6 Dragon Princes, 8 Silver Helms, Lion Chariot, 2 units of Archers, 2 Bolt Throwers, 5 Shadow Warriors.

I deployed all my combat stuff in the centre flanked by the shooting Laurie did the same but with a unit of silver helms on the flank.

First Turn Laurie moved Straight Forward with his Dragon and Dragon Princes right infront of my Cold Ones and then shot the cold ones killing 2. In my Turn I charged in and challenged the Prince. The units pretty much cancelled each other out after that. The Cold ones fluffed their wound rolls on the Dragon Princes and the Lords killed each other. The Dragon broke and was run down but the Dragon Princes got away and the remaining Cold Ones were wiped out by shooting. The Silver Helms also go shot up and the we did a little damage to each others shooting. The Witch Elves were reduced to half strength by shooting before they went and hid in a wood.

End Result Draw (+250 to me)

So at the end of the day two of use were on 50pts for gaming (the good old 20pts system) and I won through on a slightly higher sportsmanship score.

The Army worked well but I would still like shields on all the units but I really can't see where to get 60pts from as everything has been performing really well. In fairness all my opponents made mistakes which did help me with my results.


Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:03 pm
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Congratulations on the win and thanks for writing it up.

The Bristol Brawl sounds intriguing and I must admit the idea of reversing the armies seems like a very sensible way to even up anything that might be broken between armies. I used to find the same process useful when I played MtG (a card game which was very populer just under 20 years ago) and the insights it gave me about my own weaknesses were invaluable.

I think I would be a little nervous about handing my models over to a clumsy opponent though. My opponents would probably feel just as nervous if they had ever seen me play sport! :oops:


Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:50 pm
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Cold One Knight
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There is a key point the 'owner' can request to move any unit he feels he wouldn't want to 'risk'.

I am very keen on this idea as well. I have made it standard practice in my gaming group to have some 'swapped' games as part of tournament warm up. One of the best things you can do to develop your ability with an army IMO.


Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:55 pm
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Cold One Knight
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The Bristol Brawl

I just want to say this is a fantastic event with the army swap and army banding for the first two games (and handicap points) there was a really good mix of armies in attendance with lots of interesting things you don't usually see. The top ten came out really varied which is always a good thing IMO. Also it was a really well organised event and managed to raise some money for charity.

Just to explain the banding used at the tournament as it makes a difference:

Band 1: Nasty Daemons/dark elves/vampires
Band 2: normal tournament lists with most armies
Band 3: Specifically toned down armies to take some more interesting choices.
Band 4: massively toned down armies i.e softer ogres armies

i managed to make band 3 which i was happy with given I had the ASF banner and the pendant.

Ok on to the games....

Game 1 - Brettonians
The list inlcuded 3 lances of 9 errants, 5 grail knights with lord, 9 KOR a grail relique 3 peg knights, scroll caddie, BSB on foot 10 archers, trebuchet.

This army was nice and soft list but without alot of the units I would really like against brets (black guard, assassins, dark riders). My spell roles didn't help much either with metal magic giving me Law of Gold epecially when there where very few items in the bret list in the first place.

In the game itself my Cold One Khnights were the real stars they took two speerate charged from Errant Lances and destroyed both easily (I only took a wound off a horse) they then took out the grail relique and the peg knights whocharged in the rear. The Witch elves took out the grail knights and one spearmen unit with support from RXBs took out the knights of the realm unit. I lost a sorceress a both units of RXb,my bolt throwers a unit of spearmen and both my harpy units and my opponent had a unit of errants left at the end.

18-2 win for me

Magic and shooting combined to do not alot in this game but a Lord with Cold One knights really is hard for a land without a character to deal with and this was the key to the game.

Game 2 coming soon.


Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:27 am
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Morathi's Favoured
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I was looking at the results last night. It certainly was a mixed field podium. Nice to see. Congratulations!!


Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:36 am
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Skilgannon wrote:
Just to explain the banding used at the tournament as it makes a difference:
Band 1: Nasty Daemons/dark elves/vampires
Band 2: normal tournament lists with most armies
Band 3: Specifically toned down armies to take some more interesting choices.
Band 4: massively toned down armies i.e softer ogres armies

i managed to make band 3 which i was happy with given I had the ASF banner and the pendant.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreadlord: Cold One, SDC, Heavy Armour, Shield, Crimson Death, Pendant of Khaleth: 245pts
Death Hag: BSB, Banner of Hag Graef, Manbane, Rune of Khaine: 200pts
Sorceress: L2, Dispel Scroll, Tome of Furion: 175pts
Sorceress: L2, Dispel Scroll, Darkstar Cloak: 185pts
2 x 20 Warriors: CSM: 135pts
2 x 10 RXB: 100pts
2 x 5 Harpies: 55pts
5 Cold One Knights: CSM, War Banner: 200pts
14 Witch Elves: CSM, Banner of Murder, Manbane: 215pts
2 Bolt Throwers: 200pts
I am intrigued by your classification as band 3. Do you know why exactly?
Could be: no hydra - no COB - no flying monster - no BG - reasonable magic levels - no Ring of Hotek.
Do you know what were the criteria?

Compliment on achieving 2nd result with so many self limitations, nonwithstanding the handicap points that you probably benefitted from.
How many participants?

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Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:56 pm
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Cold One Knight
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Quote:
I am intrigued by your classification as band 3. Do you know why exactly?
Could be: no hydra - no COB - no flying monster - no BG - reasonable magic levels - no Ring of Hotek.
Do you know what were the criteria?


I know three people voted to clsify the army two voted band 3 one voted band 2. There aren't many other rules but a bit of moderation would have helped all but one dark elf list was band 2, band one is essentially for daemons and totally over the top armies. I think if you look at the list whilst it works very well together that isn't something that usually gets hit.
It will also be affected regardin how the organisers felt my army fitted in against the others in attendance.

I don't have: Dark Riders, Assassins, Black guard or a hydra having none of those fits with the taking more unusual army designs that is part of band three. Every other army there probably had least Black guard.

Also in terms of what i did have lord, BSB, 2 L2 6 core 2 special 1 rare has a good 'balanced' feel to it. Making the army depend on Stupid Cold ones and Frenzy witch Elves also helps as it give clear weaknesses.

I certainly agree that it is a close call between Band 2 and 3 and would have been happy with either. The Comp was fantastic though as all bands could have ended up winning in the end which is the way it should be. I would definitely like to see this format repeated more widely they got everything from comp, painting, sports etc spot on.

Quote:
Compliment on achieving 2nd result with so many self limitations, nonwithstanding the handicap points that you probably benefitted from.
How many participants?


Thank you. There were 38 in the end which was a shame as there were 56 places initially but cancellations took a big hit. It is a pity for those who missed out it was a great event.


Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:53 pm
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Well done, nice list. Bristol is a good weekend???

Dark Elves, have a lot of tools to be good without they no brainers.

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Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:17 pm
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Cold One Knight
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Game 2 - Warriors of Chaos

So Warriors of Chaos up next. A really nice guy called Carl. His army included: Khorne Hero on juggernaut with Nurgle Knights, Tzeentch hero on Daemon Steed in Khorne ogres, Tzeentch hero in Slaanesh warrior unit, 2 spawns, 5 hounds, 5 maurader horsemen, 10 mauraders, hellcannon

This game pretty much was over when I rolled for my spells (2 spirit of the forge! vs no dispel scrolls/2 dice) and it was definitely over by turn 1 when I got both off killing the knights and character with 2 spirit of the forges and the helcannon misfired killing itself.

The Witch Elves killed the warriors and I flanked the Ogres with spearmen but he kept holding and eventually broke me. The Cold ones finished the ogres off. Shooting took care of the rest.

20-0 I'm not sure whether it would have been the same without such a great first turn as the match up really did favour me.

Next up table 1 and some rather dirty daemons.


Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:11 pm
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Game 3 - Daemons
so Now i had got to Table 1 and was playing against my first round opponent from the Mersey Meltdown a couple of weeks ago, Chris Legg. The Daemon army Chris uses is quite nasty so I wasn't hopeful:

Blood Thirster, Nurgle BSB, 2* 10 Bloodletters, 12 Plague bearers full command, 3 Nurgling Bases, 2*5 flesh hounds, 5 Flamers, 1 Fiend of Slaanesh, 2*5 furies.

Now it needs to be said that both me a Chris made quite a few mistakes in this game largely due to to having been drinking most of the day (and continuing during the game).

i tried setting upt with both the Witch Elves and and Cold Ones on a Flank to protect against the Blood Thirster. The plan was going ok as Chris decided to charge the Cold Ones (with the Pendant Lord) in the front with the Thirster to avoid being shot (he was blocked from charging anything else). unfortunately My lord didn't manage a single wound over the combats and died in three round with the thirster taking a couple of wounds to combat res and losing another wound to shooting. The Witch Elves managed to get trapped behind a combat with Furies and harpies whilst at the same time flamers tore them apart leaving the Nurgle block to kill the three remaining witches in combat. The flesh hounds managed to take out most of the rest of the army with the help of the blood letters.

It ended 20-0 to chris on victory points but with the hanicap for him being band 1 this dropped down to 16-4.

My Shooting and magic had some really bad rolling (probably making up for turn 1 game 2) and this really cost my I got two hits turn 1 with my bolt throwers repeating hitting on 4+ against the flesh hounds a little more damage could have swung key combats. Anyway that is the way luck goes some times.

Up next game 4 Army Swap the game my list is designed for!

What do you mean Beastmen!


Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:45 am
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Game 4- Beastmen *Army swap*

So after day 1 and a beating that I barely felt due to alcohol I was looking forward to seeing what i got in army swap licking my licks in anticipation i was rather disappointed to recieve a Beasts of chaos army for my trouble especially when my firend playing with band 1 daemons managed to swap with the only daemon army he could swap with. This was a Band 4 list versus my band 3 but I don't recieve any handicap benefits.

Anyway the list I was given was:
Beastlord on Chariot 5+ ward and black Maul (only 1 character!)

15 Bestigor
11 Khornegore
4 Beast Herds (5 gor/5 ungor)
2 chariots
3 dragon ogres
3 ogres
2*5 Centigor
Giant

On first impression I wasn't impressed but with so many decnt combat units I fancied my chances of doing some damage. my main worry is that shooting and magic could kill two units a turn.

Luckily My opponent rolled all the worst spells on lore of death so only ever cast dark hand of death. phew.

There was a lot of back a forth with in this game and I did loose alot of models. The Lord of Cold one ran around alone and I never took him out but limited the damage he could do. My khornagor got a charge on the cold one knights due to a mistake by my opponent. The Witch Elves got taken out by the beast lord charging the flank of the unit.

In the end i had about a thrid of my army left compared to a 6th of the dark elves and with other bonuses I got a minor.

Result 13-7 to me.

Last game coming up.


Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:35 am
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Game 5 - Lizardmen

Ok so last game and my third on table 3 of the tournament. I knew a big win would give me a shot at winning as i was only 5 points off the highest player and the dirty daemon army he was using was on a -2 handicap whereas i had no handicap so all i needed was the brettonian player to avoid getting badly beaten and I could squeeze in if the game on table 2 was also tight.

My opponent had proved a bit of a surprise package so far doing really well with an unfancied lizardmen army.

He had:
Lord, BSB, Hero on cold one
Scroll caddie
2*20 saurus with spears
2*10 skink cohorts with javelins
2*10 skink skirmishers with blow pipes
5 Chameleon skinks
2*5 Saurus cavalry

I quite fancied my chances here but was wary of the characters as my opponent had defied expectations and I needed to carefully conserve points to try and get a big win as I needed to win by 1500pts with only 400pts available for banners/table quarters/general.

I set up with my RXB and Bolt Throwers facing the two saurus blocks with the BSB supported with the spears fairly centrally. Another spear unit went on the far flank to be a distration and ended up facing a unit of cold one cavalry with hero. The Old Blood's cold one cavalry went on the opposite flank faced by my Cold ones and witch Elves.

I whittled down his units with shooting and magic and my harpies march blocked his saurus block but then with my Cold ones about 15 inches from his I failed my stupidity test and ran straight infront of him. I moved my BSb into the cold ones to protect them still quite fancing my chances, then he filed his stupidity test putting him in my chrge range and with the BSB I wiped the unit out leaving the lord on one wound who fled into harpies.

The rest of the army got mopped up fairly easily after that with the blocks surrounded my shooting and magic took care of the rest.

20-0

Unfortunately whilst table 2 was happily heading for a draw table 1 ended up wwith the bretonian player smashing the daemon off the board (a killing blow on the Blood thirster helped) for a 20-0 win without handicap so I had to settle for second which I was more than hapy with.

I loved every game they were all really good games and it was a great overall experience. The Comp worked well although being at the top of a band rather than at the bottom of one obviously helps but there isn't much that can be done about that and I don't know if it made that much difference or not.


Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:06 pm
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Seeing it is the army list seciton i should probably talk about the list now that I am putting it aside for a bit (other than for a last grudge match perhaps).

The Magic: I managed to pump out from two level 2's really impressed me I have struggled to get value for points from dark Elf magic previously but by using this list I have seen how great two level two's do agianst armies that are low on magic with the power of darkness it is really brutal. The biggest learn however, is to go for lores with plenty of useful spells to make sure you get the most of your power of darkness going for shadows for instance hasn't paid off for me as there just aren't enough spells to cast unless I roll really well for spells. The defence is also ok but nothing special but doesn't hurt to have.

Shooting: Without dark riders or shades to get some more 'targetted' shooting this army does just tend to have to try and batter whatever is infront of it with shooting but for 400pts you definitely get good value and the blend of two repeaters and 2 RXBs gives great flexiblity.

Combat I enjoyed having all offensive units for combat the sheer killing power the Cold ones and Witch Elves bring is fantastic. The spear are so useful for taking on monsters and being a bit of a threat that has to be dealt with I think using the spears effectively is quite key to using this list to it's full potential as you need to avoid them being run over (which lots of things can) unless it really drags a unti out of position. Also the spears make a great meat shield for the other units which is something the witch elves and cold ones really need sometimes.

Anyway I think that is enough of me end of the day a nice mix between the four phases did me proud and are fantastically fun to play with.


Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:20 pm
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Congrats on the high rankings. It feels good to be able to take a DE list to a tourney and finally win something.

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Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:21 pm
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Thanks, yeah unfortunately I am a band wagoner. I only looked at Dark Elves when my High Elves got stupid rules. By the time I had stuff painted the new book was out so I never had to use the old book.


Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:32 am
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A huge congrad! You list was very balanced and it is really impressive to see an DE army do so well against such a wide range of players.

I am also really suprised by the amount of power that 2 LV2 Wizards can pump out. I have shocked many players with a Master (Gen), COB(BSB), + 2 LV2s. The Amount of casting is quite High and in the middle to late Game turns, you can get at least 2 spells off each round.

Good For you! Great write-ups as well.

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Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:04 pm
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congratulations Skilgannon! I really enjoyed reading this thread - thank you for taking the time to write up the reports of each game!

I've been playing 2 level 2s in my list almost all the time no in preparation for a tournament I have coming up in April - sadly my list is not nearly so balanced, though thats mostly due to no limitations or handicaps: my 4 friends and I who're going are having a bet to see who can do the best at it - a nights worth of drinks on the last evening is at stake! Whats more we all have a 12 pack of beer each to get through the each of the 2 days so we're gonna be pretty drunk too - which should even up the fact our lists are pretty nasty!

Anyway back on subject, I've found that 2 level 2s with darkstar cloak and sacrificial dagger are AWESOME at packing a punch - it really allows some flexiability as you can choose to go all out right from turn out and cast all 6 spells in one go (2 PoDs are required to do that, but you can knock out a max of 18 power dice in one phase with that combo - its ridiculous!).

I'm intrigued as to what lores you choose to use - I barely ever take shadow as its just of little use to me, I really think you can only take this if you have a level 4 with the tome so that way you stand a good chance of rolling the best spells (and theyre gems if you can get em and have the dice to cast em!). Do you use 2 dice each time to cast PoD and did you almost always cast PoD? I also found that I dont take fire all that often unless Im facing a druchii list with a hydra or a daemon list with nurgle heralds/plaguebearer blocks. The main ones I find of use are Dark, Death and Metal (pretty much in that order depending on my opponent)

I guess its pretty lucky to have not faced an army in this tournament with full on heavy magic as thatd just be lethal! Particularly a tzeentch magic list? How did you test battles turn out against magic strong forces - was your defence good enough? I have exactly the same magic defence as you!

The tournament does sound awesome! do you have a link for more info? Is it quite small or are there many places? Sounds like a very enjoyable and very fair system that they use!

Again, congrats on the wins - if you have the time would you read through my list/reports (the batreps pretty big!) the army list is here with the link to the batrep at the bottom of page 1 :D

Thanks again dude!

- Beanz

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Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:45 am
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Thanks

I tend to use Metal or dark as there are alot of spells you want to cast. I find the key with 2 Lvl 2's is to cast POD on 2 dice which gives you a good number of dice back as your opponent rarely trys to stop POD. You then want to put as much pressure on your opponent with limited spells so having as many that are worth casting as possible is very useful. Occassionally I use fire as it also has alot of usable spells. I don't really use death as there are a three of spells that have limited use alot of the time.

Defensively you don't really have much more than a scroll caddie. i would tend to use a unit of warriors to protect against a magi heavy army as in game 1 of the 1 day tournament.

More info on the tournament is here:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 13&t=50159

I will read you reports and comment on them there.


Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:42 pm
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