Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:35 pm



Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
MSX = 3 execs + COB = The "Burger Khaine" 
Author Message
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Development on the Execs and COB: the MSX concept.

While thinking about my series of D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp threads, I came to the conclusion that Execs are the best complement to the Cauldron of Blood (COB).

This thread is an attempt to develop on this asset.


“Executioners can cut armoured troops like bread.
COB-boosted Executioners cut them like butter.
Two slice of bread enveloping one slice of butter, that makes a good start for a sandwich.
The meat is provided by the enemy.
The gravy comes from the Cauldron.
That is the recipe for the famous:
Burger Khaine.”



Execs.

Execs are one of the greatest killing machines of the DE.
The efficiency of Execs associated with the COB is impressively increased, the COB is arguably at its best along with Execs.
In addition, Execs become stubborn with the presence of the COB not far.
If the COB is BSB, that stubbornness becomes insanely strong!

However, the problem of Execs is that they are fragile.
In order to be efficient, they better be on the charging side, otherwise they are easily wiped away.
It requires a very clever general to outmanoeuvre the enemy and position a single big Exec unit for a successful charge on the main enemy unit.
For that reason, Execs are not that much popular.


MSU.

In order to help achieving getting in a charging position, the concept of MSU can be applied successfully.

MSU (for Multiple Small Units) consists in overwhelming the opponent with many cheap targets, none of them being a major threat deserving the attention of his scarce, mighty über-unit. He can kill one easily but not all of them.

While the enemy destroys one of the MSU units, the other MSU units should be able to
- survive
- position themselves for a favourable, simultaneous charge, which could deny the opponent’s rank bonus.

When applied to Elite troops, the concept evolves in MSE (for Many Small Elite), where the idea is to get actually some significant active combat resolution (ACR) with them, while still needing to deny the opponent’s static combat resolution (SCR) because there is still not much SCR available on our side with these small units.


MSX.

With the help of a COB, Execs should be able to transcend this MSE concept: I’d call that MSX, for Multiple Small Execs.

Take three small units of 6 Execs, no champ, no banner, possibly muso, keep them cheap.
Have them shortly followed by a COB, to which you give the BSB.

The beauty is that any of the 3 Execs units can be blessed, therefore the opponent cannot state in advance which one is the most dangerous foe that must be eliminated.


If any one of the Exec units is charged, it can hold,
it may be severely butchered, but, as long as 1 exec remains, the unit benefits from the COB’s influence and is stubborn.
If the COB is BSB, chances are high that the last survivor holds.
Then one or the two other Exec units countercharge on the side, one of them boosted by the COB.

Alternatively, if one Exec unit is charged, it can flee across the COB (ITP)
and let the COB be charged, very likely to survive (at least if the BS is the Hag Graef ASF one) and to remain in combat (stubborn inside BSB’s range),
allowing the two other Execs units to countercharge on the side, one of them boosted by the COB.

Not many units already engaged in melee can survive a charge by 2 units of 6 execs, one of them having its attacks doubled!


MSX army list.

3 units of 6 Execs
+ 1 COB BSB
can be called the essence of the “MSX” concept.

They would make the backbone of the army.
They would take care of the big, nasty units.

If you play 2000pts or more, then get 4 Execs and 2 COB, 1 of them being BSB.

With the remaining points, you buy some core troops and a decent magic protection.


Core troops are essential to compensate for the MSX big weaknesses.

Corsairs in small units make a very good complement:
- they fill up the necessary core requirements,
- they can provide execs a very good missile cover,
- and they can take care of light troops:

- AHW corsairs are better against light troops than Execs, and benefit a lot from the COB’s boost (KB), if the requirement arises.
- RHB corsairs are excellent to deter fast cavalry to get too close.
- Shielded MXB can fulfil a similar role, albeit less efficient than corsairs as a cover but more threatening against fast cav.
All of these remain in the MSU concept.

There is a strong need for harpies to compensate for the low speed, charge warmachines and march-block the enemy.
DR can fulfil a similar role but are too expensive for suicide charges or being used as mere covers.


Special are all Execs. Rare:
A hydra can be a nice complement, providing a second terror-causing point and able to cover a flank.


Characters are problematic: they are necessary for bringing magic resistance, but non Khainite characters cannot join execs nor the COB, nor harpies nor hydra. They could only go alone or join the corsairs.

A single character, who could be mounted on a DS or a Pegasus, with the ROH, should be considered.
It would act as general, increasing the Ld if it is a Master, otherwise it would be a 1-scroll caddy.
Its best position would be next to the COB BSB, behind the execs.


Using the MSX army.

The idea for using such army would be:

Deployment:
In the centre rear, the COB BSB and the mobile ROH general.
In front of them, the 3 units of Execs.
In front of them, 3 units of corsairs, 2 AHW and 1 RHB.
One hydra to cover the most exposed flank according to terrain and enemy.
Harpies everywhere else.

That should be for a 1500pts game.

For a 2000pts game, add
one more small unit of exec,
a 2nd COB,
a 2nd hydra on the other flank,
a 2nd mobile character (a lord or a scroll caddy, the missing one).


Movement:
Move forward everything:
Harpies chase warmachines, march-block, screen.
Corsairs screen, bait and set themselves to help charges, in order to use their slavery rule.
Execs kill big nasty units as mentioned above.
COB and lone characters follow behind execs, characters escape melee with mobility.
Hydra breathes and covers the flanks.


Up to you! Discussion is open.

I am not going to try this setting myself because I have no execs nor COB, nor want I
(because of fluff! - although the Brother of the Coast thread opened some ways to make such army a pure corsair raiding party! - Go Navy!).

But if the idea is considered good, it may be used successfully by whoever wants.

What would be your thought about it?
Did anyone already try this setting?


"Drink that! Tastier than witchbrew:
we call that the COBman XXX

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Last edited by Calisson on Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:16 pm, edited 6 times in total.



Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:42 pm
Profile
Warrior

Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:19 am
Posts: 71
Location: Belgium : mortsel
Post 
Can't we put a Hag BSB (ASF) in the execs.?

_________________
ImageImage


Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:53 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Yes, but not a COB BSB!


Well that is a small deviation from the MSU concept, but it seems valid at first glance.

By putting a Hag BSB in one of the units, you designate it as THE threat.
It becomes predictable. The enemy knows that it is the most dangerous if it charges (especially COB-boosted).
If the ASF is identified, then it will be avoided.
On the other side, it would be the preferred target for spells and shooting.



The idea with the MSX is really to keep open the options , i.e. which one will be the Exec (or corsair) unit who will be granted the COB's blessing, because they seem all equivalent.

Instead of facing one big threat and several small threats, the enemy faces several potentially big threats, and the potential (i.e. granting COB) will be decided after his move.

That is what is searched: uncertainty for the enemy, open options for us.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:00 pm
Profile
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Post 
I'm not sold on this at all. I was around here at the birth of MSU/MSE and while we advocated this as a viable strategy, I'm not sold on using 3 special slots for just 18 models which will fall over and die in a stiff breeze.

I think there are ways to get around and bolster this, such as giving the COB BSB the Banner of Nagarythe and having a level 4 with the tome looking at Shadow magic, but it would need a carefully thought out list.

Certainly not one for beginners.


Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:16 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
When I first read the new Army Book, I thought that the competition for special slots would be fierce.
It is not.
It is the rare slot which is always filled up with hydra(es) and/or RBT (less often).

Our core troops are good to the point that I've seen many lists with less than the max special slot allowance.

Here, instead of mixing special slots with variety, I just take 3 of them and enable any of them to get the COB boost.

The stiff breeze should be taken care by the corsair cover and the RoH.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:27 pm
Profile
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Post 
Dark Alliance wrote:
I'm not sold on this at all. I was around here at the birth of MSU/MSE and while we advocated this as a viable strategy, I'm not sold on using 3 special slots for just 18 models which will fall over and die in a stiff breeze.


I like the general idea of the army, but I am in agreement with DA as well.

I have used a few different lists featureing Executioners and the Cauldron in 7th Ed. games, and Calisson is right that the combo can be truly awesome. An extra attack on a unit of Executioners lets them cut through almost any enemy on the charge.

As Calisson notes, getting the charge is important, so there is a strong need for troops that can bait and flee and otherwise set up charges for the Executioners. On this point, I disagree slightly with Calisson on the use of Dark Riders. I don't think they are too expensive compared to Harpies because they can do some things that harpies can't. Specifically, they can move after reallying, allowing them to bait and flee multiple turns in a row, and they can take a charge and force the enemy to align to them instead of the other way around. Also, Dark Riders can benefit from the Cauldron while harpies cannot. This can be important early in the game when the Executioners aren't in position to fight and so the Cauldron Blessing can be put elsewhere. An extra attack on Dark Riders can give them a BIG boost and essentially guarantees that they can clear out a small enemy units. Bottom line -- use both Dark Riders and Harpies.

The next issue is that I agree with DA that (1) units of 6 are too small and (2) that using up 3 special slots on so few models can also hamper your army.

The problem with a unit of 6 is that just 1 magic missile or even a small amount of shooting removes the unit as any real threat. The depleted unit not only suffers a major hit in terms of offensive ability, but the smaller unit is also more likely to be wiped out if receiving a charge and therefore not receiving any benefit from being Stubborn.

Finally, if you fill up all your special slots with small units of executioners, you can miss out on some other great stuff in the special category (like shades).

In a Cauldron+Executioner army of 2250 points, I personally like to use 2 units of Executioners with wither 12 or 14 models. They deploy 7-wide to maximize attacks, and the units are big enough that they can take a few casualties without being rendered ineffective but at the same time aren't too expensive.

Also, I don't rely on the 2 units of Executioners as my only combat threats. A Hydra and/or a small unit of Cold One Knights can be valuable in making sure that your opponent has more to worry about than the Execs.

Here's sample tournament-style army of the sort I'm talking about. It's not one that I have actually run, but is very similar to some that I have run with success:

Dark Elf army - Total: 2247pts

Master - heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, Dark Pegasus, Deathpiercer -- 165pts

Death Hag - two hand weapons, Cauldron of Blood, Battle Standard Bearer -- 225pts

Master - lance, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, Dark Pegasus, 2 x repeater handbow, Ring of Hotek -- 185pts

Sorceress - 2x Dispel Scroll -- 150pts

Dark Elf Warriors x20 - shield, standard -- 146pts

Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen x10 - shield -- 110pts

Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen x10 - shield -- 110pts

Dark Riders x5 - repeater crossbow, musician -- 117pts

Dark Riders x5 - repeater crossbow, musician -- 117pts

Harpies x5 -- 55pts

Harpies x5 -- 55pts

Har Ganeth Executioners x14 - Draich-master, musician -- 186pts

Har Ganeth Executioners x14 - Draich-master, musician -- 186pts

Cold One Knights x5 - Dread Knight, standard, musician -- 175pts

Shades x5 - great weapon -- 90pts

War Hydra -- 175pts

The army has lots of units and lots of threats, although none of them are terribly expensive. The most points in any single slot is 225 and that's the Cauldron itself. At the same time, the units are generally of a size where they can't be taken out by small amounts of firepower.

The real hammers in the army are obviously the executioners, but there are lots of mobilie troops to help set them up, and the enemy can't ignore the other threats in the list -- especially the Knights, who are also really nasty with an extra attack. There is a reasonable amount of shooting in the list, and even a unit to generate static combat res.

The list needs to use MSU style tactics to be effective, but the empasis in buiilding the list is on the "M" for "multiple" and not necessarily on the "S" for "small." It's what some people in the past have called a "hybrid MSU" list, which I think is better than a "pure" MSU list in many ways.

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:32 pm
Profile WWW
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Post 
I agree. As the MSU/MSE concept evolved, the 'hybrid' lists proved to be more effective as they had the longevity and adaptability required of a regularly used list for all occasions.


Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:10 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Thanks a lot, Dyvim Tvar, for this lesson form a true master.


From the first comments, I see that I need to clarify where I would like this thread to go.

You may notice that it is in the tactics forum, not in the army list forum.
The two forums are closely linked, and it is sometimes difficult to discuss tactics without drifting an army lists, or to do the contrary. I started myself, in the first post, to provide examples of army lists.

I realise now that I should have put more emphasis on the tactics and less on the possible army building it implied, so that the comments could deal more with tactics, and not that much with army building.

Sorry if I was not clear enough in the first place.
I mentioned my goal in my first paragraph but I did not stick enough on that.



The intention of the thread is:

1. to let everyone know how good are the Execs with a COB

2. to understand and accept their weaknesses

3. to try to determine a good way to exploit this asset.



1. Execs + COB are outstanding.

I did not try to demonstrate that point in this thread.
I will develop on that in the next "Boot Camp" thread.

I am glad to receive testimonies of players who experienced what I am currently discovering by theoretical studies.
Thank you again, Dyvim Tvar, for your confirmation that "the combo can be truly awesome".

Through theoretical studies, I believe today not only that Execs with COB are awesome, but even more, that no other unit can achieve better results when associated with the COB, and also that this combo is among the best ways to get Active Combat Resolution with regular troops (i.e. core, special, rare, but not characters).

If anyone can prove or testify that COB is even better with another unit, or if someone knows a unit setting, with some specific banner, which would bring more deadly results than Execs + COB combo for a similar cost, please let me know why I am wrong (my mind is open for that, and it may benefit many D.netters).

Today, I am convinced that Execs + COB is a terrifying weapon.


Next step.



2. Drawbacks of Execs.

As soon as the present Army Book was released, people realised that yes, Execs were powerful, but E3 save 5+ made them rather easy to kill.

They are quite easy to kill with missiles.
Worse, they are also easy to kill in melee, and striking last, it leaves not much in the front rank to get the ACR they are paid for.

For the missiles, the answer is simple: screen them, with harpies or corsairs.

For the melee, many D.netters deeply regretted that the Hag Graef ASF banner was not available to the Exec standard bearer.
Only by committing the BSB could the unit consider winning any charge it would receive.
Having realising that (and after whining a little bit, for some of them), many DE players seem to have just renounced to ever use Execs except as a small support unit.

I feel that the power of this tool deserves an effort to adapt to its weaknesses.

Even if I do not intend to field Execs, being interested in all tactical aspects of DE (my commitment to the D.R.A.I.C.H.), I feel some more research needs to be done.

Next step.


3. Find a good way to exploit Exec + COB.

We got a unit which wipes away the first rank (and more) of anything if it strikes first, but which first rank is wiped away if it is stricken first.

We do not want to renounce to take Execs nor take them only as a small support unit, which may or may not be terrific.

Some people like the Execs with ASF brought by a DH BSB.
The DH makes this unit expensive, so you need to flesh it with bodies in order to cope with missile threat, and the result is a more expansive unit.
You can have only one such unit, because of the unique banner.
Most people rather have the BG counterpart, less offensive, but not requiring a BSB and able to receive the RoH.

Another way to circumvent the risk of being charged is to have an assassin in the unit:
If ever the unit is charged, the assassin’s role is to diminish the number of the charging attack so that more Execs survive to deliver their deadly ACR.
Again, it increases the cost of the unit, so you need to further increase the unit in order to get bodies and avoid the unit to be wiped out by missiles.
Here, you could take several such units, but they are expensive.

Some brilliant generals like Dyvim Tvar are able to manipulate the enemy with clever baits, so that the Execs find themselves more than often on the charging side. It is probably the best way to proceed, unfortunately it requires a brilliant tactician and a profound experience that is not available to everyone (and not to me!).


In this thread, I try to see if a different way is viable:

The way to cope with the always present risk of receiving the charge is to accept it.
This is where I imagined to use the MSU concept.
It does not lessen the unit’s efficiency to be small: only the front rank creates the ACR. Small is as good as big, but it is cheaper. Small is not a necessity, it just allows us to have more units and to have them expandable.

If you receive a charge, you risk only to loose a cheap unit, whether it looses the melee or flees.
The charged unit could be the Exec unit you were counting on. Too bad.
But it would not matter that much if you had other Exec units. Hence the idea of MSX.

And if the charge you just received would grant you a good position for your remaining Exec units, then the sacrifice would be worth it, hence the COB BSB making the sacrificed unit stubborn.


I think it may open a new way to field Execs, other than with ASF BSB DH, other than with an assassin, other than as a mere support unit, and without requiring exceptional tactical skills.



One immediate drawback is that it takes most special slots.
If you want to stick with your ASF BG, your shades or your COK, that’s fine with me.
I need to convince nobody. Just keep in mind that it is not the thread’s topic.
Now, if you are ready to spare most of your special slots for the sake of having one extremely powerful unit, then the thread is for discussing it.



Composition of the rest of the army.
I am happy to discuss it.

Yes, DR may be better than harpies for baiting in the proper direction the enemy.
I am very far from mastering this technique, which is why it comes not naturally in my mind.

OK, 6 Execs in a unit are too small, I really cannot tell which number is the best compromise: more than 7 seems more than enough because usually not all of them can hit. I may rely too much on the screens to protect them, but at least I keep them expandable.
I recognize I have very little experience with MSU.

3 slots or 2 slots?
If you want to field shades or COK, go for 2. It is probably wiser for a tournament army, I suppose.
If you are happy with our core choices like I am, you may spare the 3 slots for the execs, then 3 units of 8 could take as many wounds as 2 units of 12.


Finally, my first reaction about Dyvim Tvar’s sample army is that it is more balanced than the army I suggested, but it tries less to take advantage of the combo COB + 2 Exec units, so the qualities and the drawbacks of that combo will be less obvious. My army was experimental, Dyvim Tvar’s army is more matured, which explains Dark Alliance's apreciation.


Thank you for entering the debate.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:38 pm
Profile
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Post 
Calisson wrote:
Today, I am convinced that Execs + COB is a terrifying weapon.


So am I :D

Calisson wrote:
Worse, they are also easy to kill in melee, and striking last, it leaves not much in the front rank to get the ACR they are paid for.


You have good suggestions on how to cover this weakness -- an assassin, DH with Banner of Hag Graef. Also, in your top post, you pointed out that the Executioners with the Cauldron can be stubborn, so this weakness is not such a weakness if you have a unit in position to counter-charge an enemy that charges and sticks in combat with the Execs.

One thing you forgot -- you can always flee with the Execs as a charge reaction! Something you can't do with Black Guard.

Calisson wrote:
3 slots or 2 slots?
If you want to field shades or COK, go for 2. It is probably wiser for a tournament army, I suppose.
If you are happy with our core choices like I am, you may spare the 3 slots for the execs, then 3 units of 8 could take as many wounds as 2 units of 12.


Another factor in the 2 or 3 unit question is how many Cauldrons you have. The Cauldron can only give out 1 blessing per turn. So if you are counting on the blessing of the Cauldron for you Executioners, you may want to field 2 Cauldrons if you intend to field 3 units of Execs, and stick to 2 units of Execs if you only have 1 Cauldron.

Also, one thing I should have said before is that I agree Corsairs could be a good choice in an MSU infantry army featuring Execs since their Slaver ability will give you a better chance of catching enemies as they flee. In the list I posted above, you could change its feel significantly by switching the 2 units of crossbowmen for 2 units of corsairs.

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:17 am
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:36 am
Posts: 1070
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Post 
This could be a good force, however I think it is in the need for an Assassin. They are always hidden so the enemy wont shoot at any particular unit, and he will still save lots of Exes when they are charged. Only problem with the list otherwise is the lack of support elements, there is next to no shooting and magic, where many armies will anhilate this list.

_________________
www.twitter.com/lachie57


Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:09 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 5:07 am
Posts: 1060
Location: Plotting the return of the Cult of Pleasure
Post 
It is a very creative concept but I am afraid it is unlikely to be viable. Ex's are T3 5+AS elves your units of 6 will be easily wiped out on the charge even if things break your way and you get the 5+ ward on the charged unit they are still going to be toast. They are so small that they will be very vulnerable to shooting and resultant panic test with just two casualties.

Stubborn does you no good if there are no models left to take the test or if they are beaten by outnumbering fear causers which are all too common in 7th edition WFB.

I would love to see some battle reports with this tactic used in a tournament to see if my concerns are well founded.

_________________
To strive, to persevere, to conquer.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:21 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 5:56 am
Posts: 2261
Location: Flying my manticore 'Bloodmaw', looking for prey.
Post 
Vulnerability to fear is the biggie for me. The simple fact that they will refuse to charge 1 in 6 times even on Ld9 and 1 in 4 if they test on their own Ld.

Because of this vulnerability, I wouldn't make them a mainstay unit. I would consider them as support units for a block of BG in front of the cauldron. This way, the best unit at the time gets the boost and I don't have to risk bolstering the exies with an expensive hag or assassin and if they die, at leat something my battle line was relying on survives.

I suppose, to my way of thinking, exies are so flawed, I wouldn't base a strategy around them, I would instead use them as colour for my army to make it different from the cookie cutter armies out there; perhaps use them as replacements for thew knights or hydra in some games.

_________________
ImageImage
http://urialsulla.mybrute.com


Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:15 am
Profile
Shade

Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:20 pm
Posts: 112
Post 
I really like the concept as i am a big fan of both, the execs and the cauldron, especially when they are combined.

One aspect that i would like to add is that i think units of 6 execs will have a very hard time to accomplish what you plan for them. I would consider increasing their numbers a little, maybe units of 10 but that comes down to personal preference. By increasing their size one gains two things:

First is that they become a bit more resilliant to shooting, as they can now take a few casualties while still staying effective. A unit of 6 execs would be rendered useless very quickly as it needs only two losses to shooting to reduce the unit under US5 which will be needed to take care of ranks.

The second point is that a unit of 6 execs will have problems to hold charges, even when stubborn, because any serious hitter will be able to take all of them out. This would be a huge problem, as he is likely to then overrun into the CoB, where you definately not want him to be.

I also like the idea of filling core choices with corsairs, i think with handbows they make for great screens.
Of course Harpies are a must have, i don't think anybody would disagree here, also DRs with RxBs seem to be a great addition, so cores won't be a problem.
Elites are full as well so are the rares , with hydrae, leaves the heroes. My suggestion would be a rather offensive way of magic defense, a master on steed with the ring seems to fit perfectly, played aggressively he is a real pain for any caster. An alternative could be to get a master BSB with the ring and put him on a chariot. this way he would be close to our execs, closer then the cauldron, to protect them and add the reroll. He is also a great support for stubborn units, as he can be devastating when charging a flank.

Apart from that i don't see many difficulties, it's not a beginners list, i think all would agree on that one, but in the hands of an experienced MSU player this would make for a deadly weapon.
And even though i dont consider myself an experienced MSU-Player, i think i will give it a try.


Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:47 am
Profile
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Post 
OK, I see where you are wanting to go with this thread now so let's get into 'nitty gritty' shall we :D

I agree with your basic premise that COB backed Exes is an awesome combat force IF all the elements come together and they hit. Problem comes with keeping them alive in the early part of the game to do their job as you have said.

Screening is the obvious choice and which units to use are mostly down to preferable choice in any one army composition. Agreed. But what can we do with the COB?

This is the point which has not been discussed yet. Your basic Executioner has 1 attack at s4 from a hand weapon OR 1 attack at s6 from his great weapon. BOTH have killing blow though. Therefore I tend to plan with my COB as I read the ebb and flow of the battle. If it looks like my Executioners are going to get charged then I will most likely give them the 5+w in my turn and choose to opt for the use of great weapons. If I am looking at a situation where I then might end up in a prolonged fight, I might choose to start the combat using their handweapon which also has the killing blow special rule.

In this prolonged combat, the COB can then be used to give +1 attack in my next turn. 2 s4 KB attacks with I5 is pretty damn good.

For this kind of prolonged melee to work though, small units of Executioners is NOT the way forward. I would therefore offer an alternate viewpoint - that of having a unit of 14 (7 x 2) or even 15 and start the combat 5 x 3, looking to expand frontage when a round of combat is won. In this way, by having LARGER units of Executioners and choosing a blessing and weapons option to suit the situation, the principle becomes much stronger and the Executioners become a much more viable unit.

Edit: as a footnote. In this instance, giving the unit the Banner of Murder becomes a really interesting option because then when they hit using their handweapons they are s4 armour piercing with killing blow. Nice :twisted:


Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:03 am
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Good! The thread triggered some attention!

Dyvim Tvar
One thing you forgot -- you can always flee with the Execs as a charge reaction! Something you can't do with Black Guard.
=> mentioned in the first post, MSX chapter:
Alternatively, if one Exec unit is charged, it can flee across the COB (ITP because of frenzy)
and let the COB be charged, very likely to survive (at least if the BS is the Hag Graef ASF one) and to remain in combat (stubborn inside BSB’s range),
allowing the two other Execs units to countercharge on the side, one of them boosted by the COB.
Of course, it may happen tinstead hat the enemy’s charge failed, they remain at half charging distance – at proper other Exec’s charging distance.

Another factor in the 2 or 3 unit question is how many Cauldrons you have. The Cauldron can only give out 1 blessing per turn. So if you are counting on the blessing of the Cauldron for you Executioners, you may want to field 2 Cauldrons if you intend to field 3 units of Execs, and stick to 2 units of Execs if you only have 1 Cauldron.
=> Fully agree.

Also, one thing I should have said before is that I agree Corsairs could be a good choice in an MSU infantry army featuring Execs since their Slaver ability will give you a better chance of catching enemies as they flee. In the list I posted above, you could change its feel significantly by switching the 2 units of crossbowmen for 2 units of corsairs.
=> especially since:
1. corsairs are an excellent screen for light missiles/magic
2. they benefit greatly from the COB themselves, the case should arise.

Demetrius the Betrayer
I think it is in the need for an Assassin. They are always hidden so the enemy won’t shoot at any particular unit, and he will still save lots of Exes when they are charged. Only problem with the list otherwise is the lack of support elements, there is next to no shooting and magic, where many armies will annihilate this list.

=> the drawback of the assassin is that you have to assign him to one specific unit (until he reveals himself). Therefore, you loose the ability to switch roles between your Exec units at will.
About no shooting nor magic, you are supposed to compensate that with good screen against shooting an magic, plus the RoH, plus coming as soon as possible in melee where you fear no shooting nor magic.

Mordru
Ex's are T3 5+AS elves your units of 6 will be easily wiped out on the charge even if things break your way and you get the 5+ ward on the charged unit they are still going to be toast. They are so small that they will be very vulnerable to shooting and resultant panic test with just two casualties.

=> Not true. According to my statistical research (the Boot Camp series), none of the units used as a foe would kill 6 or more execs on the charge more than 5% of the time, even if the Execs had not the 5+ ward save! A charge of 3 ogres would be the closest, very near 5% chances of achieving that.

Of course, there are many other kind of threats than the 6 foes I used for my testing: 4 ogres, or some deadly characters inside the considered units… Gee, you’re talking about merely killing 6 execs!
But, OK, for this reason, it would be reasonable to increase the size to 8 or even 10, to be sure. I would be surprised to discover that even a Bretonnian Lance can kill them more than 5% of the time.

Vulnerability to shooting must be mitigated with screens, or, as you suggest, with more bodies.

Sulla
Vulnerability to fear is the biggie for me. The simple fact that they will refuse to charge 1 in 6 times even on Ld9 and 1 in 4 if they test on their own Ld.

=> Hence the interest for a character behind, as general.
I would consider them as support units for a block of BG in front of the cauldron. This way, the best unit at the time gets the boost and I don't have to risk bolstering the exies with an expensive hag or assassin and if they die, at leat something my battle line was relying on survives.
=> that is the idea of MSU: if whatever dies in your army, you still got everything else, which is most of your army.
exies are so flawed, I wouldn't base a strategy around them
=> I am trying to overcome this judgement in this thread. I don’t want to decide on opinions, but on facts. There are flaws and there are extraordinary qualities. If you see only the flaws, then you renounce the qualities. The thread is to try to overcome the flaw so as to benefit from the qualities.

Valvet
One aspect that i would like to add is that i think units of 6 execs will have a very hard time to accomplish what you plan for them. I would consider increasing their numbers a little, maybe units of 10 but that comes down to personal preference.

=> Fine with me. 7 at maximum are supposed to hit, and ACR is the only interest of this unit. Anything more than 7 must be thoroughly argued and justified.

By increasing their size one gains two things:
First is that they become a bit more resilient to shooting, as they can now take a few casualties while still staying effective. A unit of 6 execs would be rendered useless very quickly as it needs only two losses to shooting to reduce the unit under US5 which will be needed to take care of ranks.

=> I intended to achieve the same result with screening. I may be too optimistic on that.

The second point is that a unit of 6 execs will have problems to hold charges, even when stubborn, because any serious hitter will be able to take all of them out. This would be a huge problem, as he is likely to then overrun into the CoB, where you definitely not want him to be.
=> I computed that it was very unlikely that more than 5 would be wiped away in a single charge, by a DE chariot, by 5 frenzied Marauders, by 3 Ogres or anything alike. However, providing a little bit more resilience doesn’t hurt.
Overrunning on the COB would not necessarily hurt, especially if the BSB’s benner is the ASF one.

I also like the idea of filling core choices with corsairs, i think with handbows they make for great screens.
=> with AHW, they will, eventually, benefit a lot from COB and, facing lightly armoured troops, they will be more useful than Execs.
With RHB, they screen as well, and they take care of light march-blockers.

Of course Harpies are a must have, i don't think anybody would disagree here, also DRs with RxBs seem to be a great addition, so cores won't be a problem.
=> DR benefit a lot from the COB, should the need arise. However, they are too expensive for being used as a screen.

Elites are full as well so are the rares , with hydrae, leaves the heroes. My suggestion would be a rather offensive way of magic defense, a master on steed with the ring seems to fit perfectly, played aggressively he is a real pain for any caster.
=> this was my suggestion as well.
An alternative could be to get a master BSB with the ring and put him on a chariot. This way he would be close to our execs, closer then the cauldron, to protect them and add the reroll. He is also a great support for stubborn units, as he can be devastating when charging a flank.
=> Master BSB can be used instead of COB BSB. Then, the COB’s DH would be the general instead of the master.
Your chariot master would be a more offensive master than the one I considered. Well defended as well, the COC is very sturdy.
Beware that in order to position for a flank charge, he will have to move away and less troops will be in the radius of the ROH & BSB (or ROH and general, which ever is applicable).
Another thing I don’t like with the chariot idea is that you must keep 3.5” free of troops in front of him in cast he became stupid.

Dark Alliance
=> Thank you for the input. Agree with most of it. Still feel that there is some romm for alternate tactics:
For this kind of prolonged melee to work though, small units of Executioners is NOT the way forward.
=> My suggested tactics was to renounce to survive prolonged combats for more than 1 turn, because the Execs are ill adapted to prolonged combat. Instead I’d rather seek to have another unit of Execs do a countercharge, blessed with the COB’s +1 attack. Then the combat is very likely not to be prolonged.
It is necessary for this tactics that Execs win their combat on the first round, but with the help of the COB, they should be able to do it. I expect (95% likelihood) 5 COB-boosted Execs to get 5 to 9 kills against low armoured troops, 4 to 8 against medium armoured ones, 3 to 8 against heavy cavalry. Even 1 to 4 wounds on a dragon.

In this instance, giving the unit the Banner of Murder becomes a really interesting option because then when they hit using their handweapons they are s4 armour piercing with killing blow.
=> It is nice indeed. And it is worth the cost.
The drawback I see is that one of the Exec units is not anymore similar to the other ones, and its cost is significantly increased (because you want to provide them more bodies as well).
So, yes if you take only 2 medium Execs unit, no if you take 3 small Execs units.



For all:
Most of you suggest to increase the size of the Execs.
I admit that 6 was a little bit extreme. If I were to try, I would now probably take 8 to 12 for each unit, taking 3 units.

Many of you suggest to make two medium Execs units instead of 3 small ones. The medium units (around 14 bodies) would be further improved with assassin or AP banner.
I believe it is a very nice alternative. More expansive but more reliable.
Still, I believe that the pure MSX 3 small Exec with a single COB has some potential and deserves to be tried.

Only with testing could we be sure. It is beyond my reach. Could someone else try and report?


The chef’s word about 2/3 specials and their unit’s size:
Thank you all for coming here.
I understand that my experimental "Le Menu Du Chef" of one triple burger with just some salad around does not get much success.
Some want a side dish like French fries, so they downsize the burger to a double or even single burger.
Some want a double burger rather than a triple one, but want to make it a double cheeseburger.
At least, you are many to show an interest in Burger Khaine!
Enjoy and come back another time!
Maybe you'll try in the future, for a diet change, my triple burger without cheese nor fries!

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:44 pm
Profile
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Post 
So was the purpose of this thread was to discuss your idea only, but not consider any evolution of the concept? Do you not need any more imput?


Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:20 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 5:07 am
Posts: 1060
Location: Plotting the return of the Cult of Pleasure
Post 
As I said before I would like to see a battle report of this tactic at a tournament. I find that I do not have great faith in your calculations based on my roughly 15 years of playing this game. In my experience there are lots of units that can kill 6 T3 elves on the charge. There are also a lot of units that will not have to charge the unit of 6 that you blessed but will have the reach to charge another of the units of 6 the way you have described deploying and using them. Again, all you have to do is lose the combat to a fear causer that outnumbers you and you are fleeing. There are tons and tons of armies at tournaments with access to fear causers that will sort out this tactic with ease. Give it a try it out and let us know how works out.

Also, your tiny units are very vulnerable to being lured away by throwaway units due to hatred. Chaos hounds for example can just charge in, lose the combat and your exes are off to the races after them. With larger and more durable units this is less of a problem but you have outlined a strategy that revolves around very small units staying together to support each other and staying in range of the cauldron's ability to make them stubborn.

One of the many units that can disrupt this plan is a 30 point unit of chaos hounds. All they have to do is kill two of the exes to cause this effort to dissolve rapidly. If your exes don't kill them all they will have to chase them and severly damage your plan.

_________________
To strive, to persevere, to conquer.


Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:22 am
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
My experience at playing WHB is very limited and deals only with family games, so I rely on you guys with a sound experience to let me know where my estimations are flawed.
My added-value is just theorical studies made with a spreadsheet and countless hours of theoryhammering.
The statistics only provide you what you ask. I asked stats about the results against a very limited set of opponents (Marauders, Dwarf warriors, human Knights, Ogres, DE COC and DE dragon), hoping it would be representative of usual oponents.
I know nothing about VC or Demons who seem to be the biggest pain to face.
Mordru wrote:
In my experience there are lots of units that can kill 6 T3 elves on the charge.

One of the many units that can disrupt this plan is a 30 point unit of chaos hounds. All they have to do is kill two of the exes to cause this effort to dissolve rapidly. If your exes don't kill them all they will have to chase them and severly damage your plan.
Please provide me with the stats of the considered units (through PM if you wish) and I'll do the math and come back the next day with the exact results.

Dark Alliance wrote:
So was the purpose of this thread was to discuss your idea only, but not consider any evolution of the concept? Do you not need any more imput?
When I realized how impressive were the killing expectations for execs+COB, I thought that this could be enough to restart an interest in this unit, that seems to have been somewhat lost in the last 6 months.

The purpose of the thread is to discuss which are the best ways to use Execs with the help of a COB.

I thought that MSX was ONE solution, as it is new (to my knowledge) it deserves more careful attention, but please discuss also other solutions, and you're welcome to tell how effective they are.

If, as a result, we see more people using execs + COB - and winning thanks to them - then the thread will have been a success.

If, as a side result, we see new tactics emerge (MSX or any other), then the thread will have been a double success.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:45 am
Profile
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Post 
I think you have made a good point highlighting the killing potential of Exes with the COB. We all agree on that, and I applaud you for your enthusiasm in actively promoting these discussion topics. It does us all good to re-think tactics from time to time so well done.

Theoryhammer doesn't always work though as we all know. Principles such as the one you are currently advocating cannot factor in all the variables that can happen during the ebb and flow of a normal game of warhammer. But what it does do is get people thinking about a basic concept, and every now and then a truly viable tactic emerges. As happened with MSU all those years ago.

This is why I asked if you wanted this discussion to continue.

What I have seen so far during this thread, is that you have suggested a possible Executioner/COB combination. As a result of the analysis of that idea Executioners have been seen in a better light because you have displayed their killing potential. but the small unit size suggested has been shown to be not the most effective use of points. You don't need math for that, unless of course you can display how many Executioner hits would be needed to KILL 5 charging Chaos Warhounds. And they would need to be killed when they charge the Exes because otherwise the line is broken when the hatred pursuit is forced.

So, in summary a successful thread but I think in a slightly different way to what you imagined. Good work!


Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:49 am
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Thank you for the kind words.

Give me their characteristics of Chaos Warhounds or other threats you consider as the most dangerous threat, and I let everyone know.
If this can help determining the best minimum size, I can do that.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:47 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 5:07 am
Posts: 1060
Location: Plotting the return of the Cult of Pleasure
Post 
Calisson, I understand the benefits of crunching numbers but the secenario you propose it counting on 6 T3 with at best a 5+ ward save and heavy armor surviving a charge. I have attempted to urge you to consider that their are tons of units that can either kill these guys or lead them off.

Anything that causes fear or has enough attacks will either kill them all or autobreak them.

Diverting them is even easier, chaos hounds are WS4 MV 7 S3 and most importantly dirt cheap. Harpies, goblin wolf riders, almost any chariot, etc. would do the job as well.

If you give the 6 exes the ward save blessing then they will have 6 attacks back if and only if they all live. If only one or two of them die you will not have enough attacks back to destroy the unit and you will be forced to pusue them when they break. A lot of complex calculations do not seem to be in order in this instance IMO. Play a few games with your concept and let us know how you do. Good luck and have fun that is what new theoryhammer ideas are all about.

_________________
To strive, to persevere, to conquer.


Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:29 am
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
I did the math :D

Let's have a unit of 7 Execs charged by 5 dirt cheap light cavalry (or harpies...) with S3.
5 DR, with hatred and lance, kill 2 to 6 Execs.
5 harpies, no hatred, S3, 2 attacks, kill 0 to 3 Execs. I can only assume that warhounds look more like harpies than like DR.
If you had COB's save, reduce these numbers by 1/3. I do not advocate to take this save except as a desperate measure just for when you have no offensive other use for the COB. We'll see why below.

First conclusion:
you don't want to be charged by light cavalry.
If you're threatend with them, take them away with the rhb corsairs.
If you can't (they are too far), interpose the rhb corsairs.
If you can't, arrange to have both Execs and rhb corsairs to be charged, and stand & shoot.
If you can't, flee! You'll come back later, and the frenzied COB ignores your fleeing across it.
If you can't, then you've lost nearly your 84pts unit to a unit costing the same, is it a big deal? The last survivor will hold, the comrades will avenge them on your next turn and the losses will be even.


Now, suppose you've been charged by 5 dirt cheap harpies (or warhounds if they have similar stats).
The charge took out 3 Execs max (a little bit of bad luck).
The 4 remaining Execs kill 2 to 4 foes with no COB help.
Had they been COB-5+ward-saved, the 5 remaining Execs would have killed 2 to 5 foes.
Had they been COB-+1attack-boosted, the 4 remaining Execs would have killed 4 to 8 foes.
If COB is available, then +1 attack is much better: only with bad luck (3 Execs killed) and bad luck again (only 4 harpies killed) would the attacking unit not been wiped out!
Second conclusion: light skirmishers better not charge COBed Execs.

Let's go back to the non-COBed Execs.
On the average, 2 of them are killed. 5 can strike back and kill 3 to 5 attackers. They win and pursue . They have been diverted because of hatred. So what? Who cares? It's my turn now. They are not frenzied. They can go back to their line, or charge the next foe.


With this mathammer, I discovered that:
Execs are best in a line of 7.
They would loose 2 if charged by light skirmisher, and would win.
They would loose 4 if charged by medium cav and would loose.


I was already convinced that they rock if they can charge (no one disputes that, do they?).
I am now convinced that they can survive a dirt cheap charge with honour.

Yes, a medium cav would hurt them, but
a) that is what corsairs are for
b) the lone survivor should hold (unless the attacker was fear-causing) and next, another Exec unit countercharges.


Now, thanks to your objections, I would advocate to increase the unit to 8.
I know no unit who realistically would kill them all.
Only a unit both fear-causing and with enough attacks would autobreak them. Sure it can happen, in that case I'd rather loose a small unit than a large one.


Is my reasoning flawed somewhere? Please tell me.

I cannot try it on the field, as
- I have no exec nor COB
- my sons have no fear-causing armies.
Anyone willing to pursue this conversation is welcome, it could be of interest to many in D.net.

Thank you for your answers.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:00 pm
Profile
Trainee Warrior

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:13 pm
Posts: 38
Post 
I was thinking of something along similar lines. It would work like the Empire detachment system.

A large unit of Corsairs or Spearmen with a Master BSB with the Banner of Nagarythe with two units of 7 Executioners on the flanks. The large unit is charged, holds and then the attacker is flanked by two units of exes. That's a lot of WS 5, S6 KB attacks.

If the exes are charged then they flee and the charging unit is charged by the Corsairs in the flank next turn.

Alternativly the exes could support a charge made by the corsairs into the flanks of another unit.

Sure it's massivly expensive (nearly 500pts) but it'll kill virtually everything!

If you had some points free you could put an Assassin into the large unit but then you're looking at over 600pts which is rather too much!


Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:17 pm
Profile
Warrior

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:22 pm
Posts: 53
Post 
while i do often disagree on the oppinions of Callison on theory hammer, i do agree that there are not many units that can take out 6 models on the charge.
my own experiences with 8 x 6 WE have shown me that not much is really capable of that and those that are, are often lead around the bush because those are frenzy (not that easy to do when your units are frenzy too, but with non frenzy execs, no big deal)

ruling out frenzy cavalry only the real nasty monsters are capable of taking out 6 models,

however the weakness on execs is that they are not immunite to panic from shooting and that is where they might suffer.

to be honest, i would like to incorporate 3 6 strong exec units in my 8 x 6 we army thou (with hellebron of course), mm.. might be the 2250 to 2500 upgrade

_________________
fleeing from battle


Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:33 pm
Profile
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured

Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Posts: 9728
Location: In the paintshop
Post 
The issue is not so much whether a unit of 6 can be killed on the charge or not. The issues are:

1. Easy to reduce their combat effectiveness, both as a force projector and in actual combat

2. Easy to draw them away due to the hatred rule as they are unlikely to destroy totally, anything that charges them and is of an appropriate unit size.


Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software